Re: Toxic Isn't Allergic

[Guest guest]

Eight days ago I posted my explanation of what I called " ALLERGY DOCTOR

THINKING " [see attached posting]. Let me call your attention to an article

appearing in this week's New England Journal of Medicine [excerpt below], which

confirms my theory that doctor's would rather add more and additional medicines

to a medical problem, rather than say to themselves: " If the medicine isn't

working, maybe I'm wrong on my attributing the illness to the causation factor

that the medicine is prescribed for. " It ain't " allergy/asthma " you stupid

doctors; it's a toxic mold reaction. God help the millions of our

fellow-sufferers, who, at this moment, are being prescribed additional

allergy/asthma medicines for their toxic mold reactions, instead of being told,

by their doctor: " the cure is to get the hell out of your mold-filled

environment. " Pray for the sufferers, and pray that the doctors wake up to the

truth.

From the New England Journal of Medicine:

" Anticholinergics for Patients with Asthma? "

J. , M.D.

September 19, 2010 (10.1056/NEJMe1009429)

Current guidelines for treating patients with asthma whose symptoms are not

controlled by a low dose of an inhaled glucocorticoid alone recommend either

doubling the glucocorticoid dose or adding a long-acting beta-agonist (LABA).

However, inhaled glucocorticoids have a relatively flat dose–response curve, so

doubling the dose may result in little or no improvement in individual patients.

LABAs are generally more effective, but an increased concern about infrequent

but life-threatening exacerbations has reduced enthusiasm for the use of these

drugs. Alternatives to the addition of LABA therapy include high doses of

inhaled glucocorticoids, leukotriene modifiers, theophylline, anti-IgE therapy

for selected patients, and oral glucocorticoids.

To read the entire short article, click below:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe1009429?query=OF

.................................................

>

>

> Toxic Mold Reactivity is totally different from Allergic Mold Reactivity. I

have had both types of reaction, concurrently, during past mold exposures. I

have had 56 years of experience with allergic and asthmatic reactivity, and 14

years of experience with toxic mold reactivity. My experience was that my asthma

medication, albuterol, only relieved fifty percent (50%)of my symptoms, during a

combined allergic/toxic reaction to mold. Prior to my first " toxic " reaction,

the albuterol had always relieved one hundred percent (100%) of my symptoms.

Therefore, I assume that the half (50%)of my symptoms that were NOT relieved by

albuterol, were caused by a " toxic " mold reaction. Albuterol does not relieve

ANY of the suffering caused by a " toxic " mold reaction. The only way to BEGIN

relieving a " toxic " reaction, is through TOTAL avoidance of mold. None of the

fine " de-toxing " regimens discussed on this board will be effective, while you

are still being exposed to toxic mold. Unfortunately, many people are victims of

what I call " ALLERGY DOCTOR THINKING " . That is the false logic that many allergy

doctors will present to you. It goes like this: " If the allergy/asthma medicine

has relieved only half of your suffering, all we have to do is double the dose

of the same medicine, or add additional allergy/asthma medicines to your

albuterol, to achieve one hundred percent (100%) control of your suffering. "

When you are gasping for every breath of air, the " allergy doctor logic " sounds

reasonable. Unfortunately, this " false logic " is NOT true. It is given by most

allergy doctors,to their patients, due to the doctor's total lack of familiarity

with " toxic " mold reactions. After I was no longer exposed to a mold-filled

environment, and only had to deal with my many allergies and asthma, I achieved

a one hundred percent (100%) improvement in my breathing, by switching from

albuterol to Symbicort. I hope that my personal experiences are not met by

replies from people coming to the defense of " their allergist " . While I agree

that your friendly neighborhood allergist should always be everyone's " starting

point " , when searching for relief from suffering, I believe that most allergists

will turn out to be a total waste of your time.

>

> God Bless, Joe

>

[Guest guest]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18325579

J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2008 Apr;121(4):933-9. Epub 2008 Mar 6.

A comparison of skin prick tests, intradermal skin tests, and specific IgE in

the diagnosis of mouse allergy.

Sharma HP, Wood RA, Bravo AR, Matsui EC.

Department of Pediatrics, Division of Pediatric Allergy and Immunology, s

Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 21287, USA.

Abstract

BACKGROUND: Mouse sensitization is assessed by using skin testing and serum

levels of mouse allergen-specific IgE (m-IgE). However, it is unknown whether a

positive skin test response or m-IgE result accurately identifies those with

clinically relevant mouse sensitization.

OBJECTIVE: We sought to compare skin testing and m-IgE measurement in the

diagnosis of mouse allergy.

METHODS: Sixty-nine mouse laboratory workers underwent skin prick tests (SPTs),

intradermal tests (IDTs), and serum IgE measurements to mouse allergen, followed

by nasal challenge to increasing concentrations of mouse allergen. Challenge

response was assessed by nasal symptom score.

RESULTS: Thirty-eight women and 31 men with a mean age of 30 years were studied.

Forty-nine workers reported mouse-related symptoms, of whom 10 had positive

m-IgE results and 12 had positive SPT responses. Fifteen had negative SPT

responses but positive IDT responses. Positive nasal challenges were observed in

70% of workers with positive m-IgE results, 83% of workers with positive SPT

responses, 33% of workers with negative SPT responses/positive IDT responses,

and 0% of workers with negative IDT responses. SPTs performed best, having the

highest positive and negative predictive values. Among participants with a

positive challenge result, those with a positive SPT response or m-IgE result

had a significantly lower challenge threshold than those with a positive IDT

response (P = .01). Workers with a positive challenge result were more likely to

have an increase in nasal eosinophilia after the challenge compared with those

with a negative challenge result (P = .03).

CONCLUSIONS: SPTs perform best in discriminating patients with and without mouse

allergy. Mouse-specific IgE and IDTs appear to be less useful than SPTs in the

diagnosis of mouse allergy.

PMID: 18325579 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-------------------------

if any of you spend the time researching the history of the term allergy and the

history of the term anaphylactis, you well see that theres a huge discrimination

between whats a allergy and whats a toxic exposure.

this abstract above really points to what may be a true allergy and whats not as

far as testing goes to prove. haveing a stratch skin reaction and have a

intradermal under the skin hyper-sensitivity reaction, are not the same.

one is allergy one is hypersensitivity. it's not the same.

this blurr of whats allergy and whats hypersensitivity needs to be cleared up.

truely, we could all be tested intradermally and be told we have allergy, but

thats not true. if anything a true allergy may only show with a simple scratch

test. a hypersensitivity to a toxin can and well produce a bump/whell with

intradermal testing, thats not a true allergy. that is a hypersensitive reaction

to something you have become hyper-sensitive too.

all IgE reactions are not allergy driven.

[Guest guest]

heres the blurr, (harmless substance) (toxic substance)

allergy to a harmless substance(self attacking self=toxin exposure by self

toxins)

toxin exposure(foriegn(not of the body)toxin attacking self(body)=danger model)

A ALLERGY(A HARMLESS SUBSTANCE)

A TOXIN (NOT A HARMLESS SUBSTANCE)

-------------------------

Anaphylaxis

What does anaphylaxis mean?

To fully understand this term, we need to go back almost 100 years. The

story begins on a cruise aboard Prince Albert I of Monaco's yacht. The

Prince had invited two Parisian scientists to perform studies on the

toxin produced by the tentacles of a local jellyfish, the Portuguese

Man of War. Richet and Portier were able to isolate the

toxin and tried to vaccinate dogs in the hope of obtaining protection,

or " prophylaxis, " against the toxin. They were horrified to find that

subsequent very small doses of the toxin unexpectedly resulted in a new

dramatic illness that involved the rapid onset of breathing difficulty

and resulted in death within 30 minutes. Richet and Portier termed this

" anaphylaxis " or " against protection. " They rightly concluded that the

immune system first becomes sensitized to the allergen over several

weeks and upon re-exposure to the same allergen may result in a severe

reaction. An allergen is a substance that is foreign to the body and

can cause an allergic reaction in certain people.

Richet was awarded the Nobel Prize in 1913 for his work on

anaphylaxis.

Richet went on to suggest that the allergen must result in the

production of a substance, which then sensitized the dogs to react in

such a way upon re-exposure. This substance turned out to be IgE.

http://www.medicinenet.com/anaphylaxis/article.htm

Anaphylaxis is an acute multi-system severe type I hypersensitivity

reaction. The term comes from the Greek words & #7936;íÜ ana (against) and

öýëáîéò phylaxis (protection).[1]

Due in part to the variety of definitions, between 1% and 15% of the

population of the United States can be considered " at risk " for having

an anaphylactic reaction if they are exposed to one or more allergens.

Of those people who actually experience anaphylaxis, up to 1% may die

as a result.[2] Anaphylaxis results in approximately 1,500 deaths per

year in the U.S.[3][4] In England, mortality rates for anaphylaxis have

been reported as up to 0.05 per 100,000 population, or around 10-20 a

year.[5] Anaphylactic reactions requiring hospital treatment appear to

be increasing, with authorities in England reporting a threefold

increase between 1994 and 2004.[6]

Based on the pathophysiology, anaphylaxis can be divided into " true

anaphylaxis " and " pseudo-anaphylaxis " or " anaphylactoid reaction. " The

symptoms, treatment, and risk of death are the same; however, " true "

anaphylaxis is caused by degranulation of mast cells or basophils

mediated by immunoglobulin E (IgE), and pseudo-anaphylaxis occurs

without IgE mediation.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphylaxis

Allergy is a disorder of the immune system which is a form of

hypersensitivity.[1] Allergic reactions occur to normally harmless environmental

substances known as allergens; these reactions are acquired, predictable, and

rapid. Strictly, allergy is one of four forms of hypersensitivity and is called

type I (or immediate) hypersensitivity. It is characterized by excessive

activation of certain white blood cells called mast cells and basophils by a

type of antibody known as IgE, resulting in an extreme inflammatory response.

Common allergic reactions include eczema, hives, hay fever, asthma attacks, food

allergies, and reactions to the venom of stinging insects such as wasps and

bees.[2]

Mild allergies like hay fever are highly prevalent in the human population and

cause symptoms such as allergic conjunctivitis, itchiness, and runny nose.

Allergies can play a major role in conditions such as asthma. In some people,

severe allergies to environmental or dietary allergens or to medication may

result in life-threatening anaphylactic reactions.

A variety of tests now exist to diagnose allergic conditions; these include

testing the skin for responses to known allergens or analyzing the blood for the

presence and levels of allergen-specific IgE. Treatments for allergies include

allergen avoidance, use of anti-histamines, steroids or other oral medications,

immunotherapy to desensitize the response to allergen, and targeted therapy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allergy

[Guest guest]

Google " anaphylaxis " and it will become more clear as you read

the various definitions. What they all seem to agree on is that

Anaphylaxis occurs when an allergic reaction affects more than

one body system (skin or lungs or other) and instead affects

multiple systems (skin AND lungs AND more) at the same time,

even the whole body. It's onset is rapid and can quickly result in

death.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LC

-----

my specific IgE testing to molds was anaphylaxis not allergy.

hyper-sensitivity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersensitivity

Allergy is a disorder of the immune system which is a form of

hypersensitivity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allergy

I see a hudge difference here, not everyone with a allergy has a anaphylaxis

responce.

anaphylaxis was coined as a reaction to a toxin, called a allergy.

maybe just on the bases that it caused a IgE responce.

so basicly both a allergen and a toxin can produce a IgE responce.

that in no way makes them equal.

I see hudge flaws that have come from the blurring of the two.

>

> good question Sue.

> way would pin prick or stratch tests only show I had a allergy to cows and cat

while intradermal testing showed I had mutiple allergies to multiple molds,and

T.C.E. A toxin and other things that had mold involved like roaches, who eat and

poo mold, some trees, cut grass whic we know harbor molds and toxins.

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[Guest guest]

I know it affects mutiple systems. what I dont know is that anaphylaxis is based

only on a true allergy. I dont believe that.

the term anaphylaxis was coined by giveing dogs injections of jelly fish toxins.

these dogs produced IgE to jelly fish toxin.

> >

> > good question Sue.

> > way would pin prick or stratch tests only show I had a allergy to cows and

cat while intradermal testing showed I had mutiple allergies to multiple

molds,and T.C.E. A toxin and other things that had mold involved like roaches,

who eat and poo mold, some trees, cut grass whic we know harbor molds and

toxins.

>

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

What do you mean by " true allergy " as opposed to " false allergy? " If it is IgE

mediated then is that not an allergy? And the difference is in the severity?

Can allergic also be toxic sometimes and not toxic other times?

I don't mean to disagree or dispute. What we first need to do is define the

terms. Without understanding and agreeing on what is allergy and what is toxic

we are like a dog chasing its tail. Or like blaming mold when the real cause is

plug-in deodorizers or cat allergen or both.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] Re: Toxic Isn't Allergic

I know it affects mutiple systems. what I dont know is that anaphylaxis is based

only on a true allergy. I dont believe that.

the term anaphylaxis was coined by giveing dogs injections of jelly fish toxins.

these dogs produced IgE to jelly fish toxin.

> >

> > good question Sue.

> > way would pin prick or stratch tests only show I had a allergy to cows and

cat while intradermal testing showed I had mutiple allergies to multiple

molds,and T.C.E. A toxin and other things that had mold involved like roaches,

who eat and poo mold, some trees, cut grass whic we know harbor molds and

toxins.

>

>

>

> ----------

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> prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.

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> you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.

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>

>

[Guest guest]

Joe, I think the group is pretty sophisticated on the topic and is interested in

this technical stuff.

> >

> > What do you mean by " true allergy " as opposed to " false allergy? " If it is

IgE mediated then is that not an allergy? And the difference is in the severity?

> >

> > Can allergic also be toxic sometimes and not toxic other times?

> >

> > I don't mean to disagree or dispute. What we first need to do is define the

terms. Without understanding and agreeing on what is allergy and what is toxic

we are like a dog chasing its tail. Or like blaming mold when the real cause is

plug-in deodorizers or cat allergen or both.

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

> > (fm my Blackberry)

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Joe: I could not agree more with you. Doctors only treat the symptoms and do

not treat the root cause of the illness, i.e. in these cases the chronic

inflammatory response that affects almost all organs of the body. Often the

medications that are used to treat the symptoms have side affects that can cause

problems. For example, corticosteroids suppress key killing functions of

macrophages. The role of macrophages is to engulf foreign particles (mold

spores, bacteria) and then kill them by producing reactive oxygen species. The

steroids do not prevent the engulfing, but do prevent the killing function.

Therefore, these contaminated macrophages can migrate to other areas of the

body. Also, the corticosteroids increase the risk of colonization by

Aspergillus.

The participants on this forum have moved away from the fundamentals of their

illness and are seeking relief from the systemic illness. I strongly suggest

that they go to my web site and learn what contaminants are present in WDB and

how they affect the body.

Other posts that have troubled me are the discussions regarding antibiotics.

Antibiotics are made from two sources: fungi and bacteria. The bacteria

include Streptomyces species and other genera. Both of these organisms (fungi

and bacteria) are present in WDB. When going to the pharmacist stating that one

is allergic to fungal products and asking for a nonfungal antibiotic is not

correct. Streptomyces species are infectious to humans and can also cause

hypersensitivity pneumonitis. Streptomycin (antibiotic) is extracted from fungi

as well as Streptomyces.

Finally, I have come to the point where I actually delete many of the posts on

this forum because participants have neither gained knowledge of the complexity

of WDB or are ignoring the subject. WDB is a highly complexed environment where

interactions occur with components of this complexity. For example, mycotoxins

and endotoxins synergistically affect the innate immune system.

I have said enough.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

I disagree with both of you, theres knowledge to be gained, nothings set in

stone, exspecially when it comes to this illness.

exspecially when it comes to " allergies " .

and what effects a person during a WDB exposure and what affects them

affterwards and also dependent on what kind of damages they suffered make a

difference. and also after many years of advoidance is tottally different from

what they may have experienced before.

to me theres a time when antibiotics do become very important and of all things

its when you suffer from chronic sinusitis.

and believe me, when you suffer from re-accureing meningitis, you do have to

consider very closely weither you need a antibiotic or a antifungal.

and it is true that at one point you might be reactive to both antibiotics made

from mold or bacteria but later on you may tolerate either or both and they may

be very benificial.

this is not a one size fits all and one answer for all. if you dont klike

gaining knowledge beyond what you choise to believe than thats fine. maybe some

of us do.

and just because something doesn't fit in with your way of thinking doesn't mean

you have make comments about it being out of place in this group.

please do use your time helping those many who ask for help and ignore my posts

if they have now gone into a area that bothers you for whatever reason.

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> Joe: I could not agree more with you. Doctors only treat the symptoms and do

not treat the root cause of the illness, i.e. in these cases the chronic

inflammatory response that affects almost all organs of the body. Often the

medications that are used to treat the symptoms have side affects that can cause

problems. For example, corticosteroids suppress key killing functions of

macrophages. The role of macrophages is to engulf foreign particles (mold

spores, bacteria) and then kill them by producing reactive oxygen species. The

steroids do not prevent the engulfing, but do prevent the killing function.

Therefore, these contaminated macrophages can migrate to other areas of the

body. Also, the corticosteroids increase the risk of colonization by

Aspergillus.

>

> The participants on this forum have moved away from the fundamentals of their

illness and are seeking relief from the systemic illness. I strongly suggest

that they go to my web site and learn what contaminants are present in WDB and

how they affect the body.

>

> Other posts that have troubled me are the discussions regarding antibiotics.

Antibiotics are made from two sources: fungi and bacteria. The bacteria

include Streptomyces species and other genera. Both of these organisms (fungi

and bacteria) are present in WDB. When going to the pharmacist stating that one

is allergic to fungal products and asking for a nonfungal antibiotic is not

correct. Streptomyces species are infectious to humans and can also cause

hypersensitivity pneumonitis. Streptomycin (antibiotic) is extracted from fungi

as well as Streptomyces.

>

> Finally, I have come to the point where I actually delete many of the posts on

this forum because participants have neither gained knowledge of the complexity

of WDB or are ignoring the subject. WDB is a highly complexed environment where

interactions occur with components of this complexity. For example, mycotoxins

and endotoxins synergistically affect the innate immune system.

>

[Guest guest]

Carl, if you want to define to me exactly what a allergy is and how it's tested

for. go ahead. I'm getting that exspecially when it comes to mold, theres a lot

of if's and and buts out there, even in the allergy, immunology world.

>

> What do you mean by " true allergy " as opposed to " false allergy? " If it is IgE

mediated then is that not an allergy? And the difference is in the severity?

>

> Can allergic also be toxic sometimes and not toxic other times?

>

> I don't mean to disagree or dispute. What we first need to do is define the

terms. Without understanding and agreeing on what is allergy and what is toxic

we are like a dog chasing its tail. Or like blaming mold when the real cause is

plug-in deodorizers or cat allergen or both.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

> (fm my Blackberry)

>

[Guest guest]

You completely misunderstood my message. First one must understand the

complexity of WDB. Then appropriate diagnosis as to what is causing ones health

problems. Chronic inflammation caused by the innate immune system is not an

allergy. It is an over production of pro-inflammatory cytokines by the

macrophages of both the nervous system and the systemic immune system. Once

this has set in a person will adversely respond to a variety of environmental

conditions, including antibiotics. Yes, the situation can be quieted down,

however, the re-exposures to microbes (fungi and bacteria) and their by-products

will bring on the illness once again. Also, genetics plays a serious role in

these responses, including HLA, glutathione-s-transferases and cytochrome p450,

among others

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

Hey,

I don't think anyone has said IgE plays no role in these illness, merely a

normal IgE reading for mold, classic allergy, does not mean mold, their

toxins and other contaminants found in WDB are not the problem.

How do we address this? First and foremost, get away from the WDB if you

are ill - or get the contaminants out of the WDB. For most people, this

alone will stop the symptoms.

Those who are experiencing continued symptoms after being distanced from

the contaminants in WDB, need to find a physician that knows how to treat the

relevant symptoms. In other words, if your sinuses are clogged and

that's your only symptom, go see an ENT.

If one is experiencing a variety of symptoms indicative of a chronic

inflammation, then one needs a specialist in either microbial toxicity or in

fungal hypersensitivity pneumonitis.

There are a variety of ways these illnesses are currently treated. Some

use toxin binders, some use anti-fungals, some use probiotics, saunas and

other toxin eliminators, etc.

But all will tell you if you are sick from a WDB, first step to getting

better is to get away from what is making you sick - or get what is making you

sick away from you.

Your thought process on this seems correct to me:

" so why are we not looking at the whole picture here because it may be the

need to look at the whole picture before we ever find the answers. I don't

see where we can possibly say it's only this and this causes this. I don't

see how we can say that at all, no more than the other side of the coin

can say it's all about allergies. "

The answer is, we don't know everything of what is causing each illness,

because we will never know what is unique to the building you were exposed in

, that differs from that of another - or what is specifically unique to

your immune system that would cause you to react to something someone else

would not, but not react to something they would.

But.... we do know enough today that there are viable things to try when

attempting to get better. The earlier one does this, the greater chance of

complete recovery they will have.

Its a process that all who experience continued illness after leaving a WDB

must go thru. You are right in my opinion. One does have to look at the

whole picture as it relates to their own situation when finding the most

viable solution to this complex puzzle.

Sharon

[Guest guest]

I didn't just fall off the apple tree yesterday, I do understand the complexity

of WDB exposures.

what are we baseing the " allergy plays no role " on? lack of IgE?

how do we possabilty seperate the fact that fungi in WDB 's can be

allergenic,pathogenic and toxic, and what effects each of those has on our body?

mast cells are involved in all of these, mast cells are involved in inflamation,

mast cells are one of the cells that bridge the innate and aquired immune

system.

" self attacking self " or molecular mimicry, what ever you want to call it does

play a role, even a severe exposure to nothing but high amounts of allergenic

molds could lead to toxic poisoning,autoammunity. pathogens are pathogens,

weither they come from self or non-self.

seperateing what effects fungi and all it's byproducts, seems to me to be just

plain wrong. their not seperated in a WDB and their not seperated by a whole lot

of much that I can see as far as effects they can have on the body. mycotoxins

present as antigens, the allergy world involves MCH,t-cells,macrophages,mast

cells too.

even some view gell and combs, all levels as related to allergies,

whats that saying about IgG and PH? maybe we all have fungal allergy,

maybe we all dont, maybe IgE is not long lasting at all.

maybe IgE has very little to do with allergies or some things like toxins that

can be tested as allergy with allergy testing.

I've read that when it comes to bee stings and other toxins, IgE just hasn't

been dependable at all. so yes, I do question all of this.

maybe a true allergy and hypersensitivity is not at all the same thing,

exspecially when it comes to fungi.

just the fact that molecular mimicry is possable ,to me, puts fungi and us in a

whole seperate world from the norm when it comes to other allergens, pathogens

and toxins. what all that fungi does in our body

to try to survive, grow and take over, could be beyond what we know.

same goes for bacteria. even the proteins involved here with fungi,

why would mold proteins be binding IgE when they are not allergens?

our proteins? mold proteins? molecular mimicry? whats going on there? we dont

know do we. so why are we not looking at the whole picture here because it may

be the need to look at the whole picture before we ever find the answers.

I dont see where we can possabily say it's only this and this causes this. I

dont see how we can say that at all, no more than the other side of the coin can

say it's all about allergies.

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> You completely misunderstood my message. First one must understand the

complexity of WDB. Then appropriate diagnosis as to what is causing ones health

problems. Chronic inflammation caused by the innate immune system is not an

allergy. It is an over production of pro-inflammatory cytokines by the

macrophages of both the nervous system and the systemic immune system. Once

this has set in a person will adversely respond to a variety of environmental

conditions, including antibiotics. Yes, the situation can be quieted down,

however, the re-exposures to microbes (fungi and bacteria) and their by-products

will bring on the illness once again. Also, genetics plays a serious role in

these responses, including HLA, glutathione-s-transferases and cytochrome p450,

among others

>

>

> Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

> Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

> www.drthrasher.org

> toxicologist1@...

> Off: 916-745-4703

> Cell: 575-937-1150

>

>

> L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

> Trauma Specialist

> sandracrawley@...

> 916-745-4703 - Off

> 775-309-3994 - Cell

>

>

>

>

> This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am not responding to this any longer. You must read up on chronic

inflammatory response syndromes and then you will begin to understand. The

peripheral macrophages and the brain macrophages (microglia) become chronically

turned on to produce pro-inflammatory cytokines. These cause the peripheral and

central symptoms, regardless of whether or not one has IgE allegories. Mimicry

may be playing role as in autoimmune diseases. Auto immune diseases are chronic

inflammatory conditions brought on not only by autoantibodies but also a chronic

turn on of pro-inflammatory cytokines from macrophages. These cells are

responding to the toxins in the environment as well as the cells of the humoral

immune system

[] Re: Toxic Isn't Allergic

I didn't just fall off the apple tree yesterday, I do understand the

complexity of WDB exposures.

what are we baseing the " allergy plays no role " on? lack of IgE?

how do we possabilty seperate the fact that fungi in WDB 's can be

allergenic,pathogenic and toxic, and what effects each of those has on our body?

mast cells are involved in all of these, mast cells are involved in inflamation,

mast cells are one of the cells that bridge the innate and aquired immune

system.

" self attacking self " or molecular mimicry, what ever you want to call it does

play a role, even a severe exposure to nothing but high amounts of allergenic

molds could lead to toxic poisoning,autoammunity. pathogens are pathogens,

weither they come from self or non-self.

seperateing what effects fungi and all it's byproducts, seems to me to be just

plain wrong. their not seperated in a WDB and their not seperated by a whole lot

of much that I can see as far as effects they can have on the body. mycotoxins

present as antigens, the allergy world involves MCH,t-cells,macrophages,mast

cells too.

even some view gell and combs, all levels as related to allergies,

whats that saying about IgG and PH? maybe we all have fungal allergy,

maybe we all dont, maybe IgE is not long lasting at all.

maybe IgE has very little to do with allergies or some things like toxins that

can be tested as allergy with allergy testing.

I've read that when it comes to bee stings and other toxins, IgE just hasn't

been dependable at all. so yes, I do question all of this.

maybe a true allergy and hypersensitivity is not at all the same thing,

exspecially when it comes to fungi.

just the fact that molecular mimicry is possable ,to me, puts fungi and us in

a whole seperate world from the norm when it comes to other allergens, pathogens

and toxins. what all that fungi does in our body

to try to survive, grow and take over, could be beyond what we know.

same goes for bacteria. even the proteins involved here with fungi,

why would mold proteins be binding IgE when they are not allergens?

our proteins? mold proteins? molecular mimicry? whats going on there? we dont

know do we. so why are we not looking at the whole picture here because it may

be the need to look at the whole picture before we ever find the answers.

I dont see where we can possabily say it's only this and this causes this. I

dont see how we can say that at all, no more than the other side of the coin can

say it's all about allergies.

>

> You completely misunderstood my message. First one must understand the

complexity of WDB. Then appropriate diagnosis as to what is causing ones health

problems. Chronic inflammation caused by the innate immune system is not an

allergy. It is an over production of pro-inflammatory cytokines by the

macrophages of both the nervous system and the systemic immune system. Once this

has set in a person will adversely respond to a variety of environmental

conditions, including antibiotics. Yes, the situation can be quieted down,

however, the re-exposures to microbes (fungi and bacteria) and their by-products

will bring on the illness once again. Also, genetics plays a serious role in

these responses, including HLA, glutathione-s-transferases and cytochrome p450,

among others

>

>

> Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

> Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

> www.drthrasher.org

> toxicologist1@...

> Off: 916-745-4703

> Cell: 575-937-1150

>

>

> L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

> Trauma Specialist

> sandracrawley@...

> 916-745-4703 - Off

> 775-309-3994 - Cell

>

>

>

>

> This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

PS. I'm not the only one out there that thinks self attacking self and molecular

mimicry are one and the same, and to me this just blows the door wide open as

far a WDB exposures go.

>

> I didn't just fall off the apple tree yesterday, I do understand the

complexity of WDB exposures.

>

[Guest guest]

I do understand that, and you are misunderstanding my post now. to me a allergy

has always been a reaction to a harmless substance,

and a toxin is a toxin.

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> I am not responding to this any longer. You must read up on chronic

inflammatory response syndromes and then you will begin to understand. The

peripheral macrophages and the brain macrophages (microglia) become chronically

turned on to produce pro-inflammatory cytokines. These cause the peripheral and

central symptoms, regardless of whether or not one has IgE allegories. Mimicry

may be playing role as in autoimmune diseases. Auto immune diseases are chronic

inflammatory conditions brought on not only by autoantibodies but also a chronic

turn on of pro-inflammatory cytokines from macrophages. These cells are

responding to the toxins in the environment as well as the cells of the humoral

immune system

[Guest guest]

It has been over ten years, since the Mayo Clinic discovered that ALL chronic

sinusitis is caused by fungi[mold]. Only ACUTE sinusitis [usually lasting 7 days

or less]is caused by bacteria, and, therefore, antibiotics are only effective

for ACUTE sinusitis, and NOT effective for CHRONIC sinusitis.

It is absolutely amazing that many doctors are still handing out those " free

samples " of antibiotic nasal sprays to EVERY sinusitis patient. The antibiotic

nasal spray can, at best, deal only with the " opportunistic " secondary bacterial

infection. It can't possibly have any positive effect on the underlying primary

FUNGAL infection of the sinuses.

What Causes Chronic Sinusitis?

Since 1999, a comprehensive body of basic and clinical research performed at the

Mayo Clinic has indicated that chronic sinusitis is an immune reaction caused by

fungus in susceptible patients (approximately 10% of the population).

Researchers at Mayo Clinic determined that chronic sinusitis is caused by a

normally innocuous non-invasive mold in the mucus, but which in chronic

sinusitis patients elicits a destructive, inflammatory response. This

eosinophilic inflammatory response is confirmed by testing for the presence of

eMBP (eosinophilic major basic protein), which is a toxic protein released by

inflammatory cells in response to the fungi.

http://www.accentia.net/science_sinunase.php

...............................................

[Guest guest]

I understand this implicitly, having just been through infections and a summer

full of other inflammatory responses. But I wonder if you have a specific paper

on your web site or if you can point me to one elsewhere that I could print off

and give to my doctor. It helps to give her lots of research. Thanks.

From: Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. <toxicologist1@...>

Subject: Re: [] Re: Toxic Isn't Allergic

Date: Wednesday, September 22, 2010, 12:30 AM

 You must read up on chronic inflammatory response syndromes and then you will

begin to understand. The peripheral macrophages and the brain macrophages

(microglia) become chronically turned on to produce pro-inflammatory cytokines.

These cause the peripheral and central symptoms, regardless of whether or not

one has IgE allegories. Mimicry may be playing role as in autoimmune diseases.

Auto immune diseases are chronic inflammatory conditions brought on not only by

autoantibodies but also a chronic turn on of pro-inflammatory cytokines from

macrophages. These cells are responding to the toxins in the environment as

well as the cells of the humoral immune system

[Guest guest]

I'm getting away from unremediated WDB building. Check.I'm going to the Mayo ENT

on Friday. Check. 

But, a question: what do you mean by " symptoms indicative of a chronic 

inflammation " --could you list those symptoms that are more specific of that, and

less specific of allergy, if such a distinction in symptoms exist?

Many thanks.

~AN

From: snk1955@... <snk1955@...>

Subject: Re: [] Re: Toxic Isn't Allergic

Date: Wednesday, September 22, 2010, 3:43 AM

Those who are experiencing continued symptoms after being distanced from

the contaminants in WDB, need to find a physician that knows how to treat the

relevant symptoms. In other words, if your sinuses are clogged and

that's your only symptom, go see an ENT.

If one is experiencing a variety of symptoms indicative of a chronic

inflammation, then one needs a specialist in either microbial toxicity or in

fungal hypersensitivity pneumonitis. 

[Guest guest]

Jeanine,

The medical definition of an allergic reaction is one which is IgE

mediated. A diagnosis that does not find IgE would not be

classified as an allergic reaction.

That does not mean allergy can't also be toxic. Look up the

definition and use of toxic and it is all over the place. Some,

especially legal defense, don't consider anything toxic unless it

causes visible physical damage, or is poisonous, or it kills. Other

have a more broad and historical definition based on a more

general harm, or even a reaction.

We lay people tend to either ignore or are not aware of the

technical or medical definition - if there is one - and use it as best

we know how and as how we think it best describes our situation.

Then we get frustrated and angry when medical and legal people

argue against us. They are using one set of definitions and we

are using another. Of course we don't communicate, and the

harm continues. (among other reasons).

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Carl, if you want to define to me exactly what a allergy is and how it's tested

for. go ahead. I'm getting that exspecially when it comes to mold, theres a lot

of if's and and buts out there, even in the allergy, immunology world.

>

> What do you mean by " true allergy " as opposed to " false allergy? " If it is IgE

mediated then is that not an allergy? And the difference is in the severity?

>

> Can allergic also be toxic sometimes and not toxic other times?

>

> I don't mean to disagree or dispute. What we first need to do is define the

terms. Without understanding and agreeing on what is allergy and what is toxic

we are like a dog chasing its tail. Or like blaming mold when the real cause is

plug-in deodorizers or cat allergen or both.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

> (fm my Blackberry)

>

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[Guest guest]

I know Carl, I know that some toxins can be rather harmless, and I know that

some allergies can be very dangerous.

I get pretty agervated that this group wants to look at only one side of things

and close their eyes to the other.

are we that closed minded here that we cant see beyond what some dictate? I dont

call that progress.

people come in here that are so ill it's hard to read much of anything,

I think it's wrong to tell newbees to to go read this and go research that, it

may be to hard for them to do that, they really just need answers, good answers

to get them headed in the right direction.

I dont see how we can leave allergies out of this and still head all of them in

the right direction.

and newbees need to understand that we are all in different places with this and

if they are not up to absorbing more information than what they need than dont

try.

I haven't forgot how hard things were for me when I first came here.

it's still hard and I'm slow, I can only consentrate on one thing at a time.

people here need to realize this isn't always just about the toxic reactions and

can be allergic reactions and they can be had together.

or seperate, depending on exposure, and either have the potential to cause very

severe illness.

the proof should be in that Dr. Rhea has helped many in the years and his

treatment is not just about the toxins.

for one to set here and dictate that allergies have no role here is in my

opinon, wrong. to try to tottally seperate the two is in my opinon wrong, there

is no rule that says we cant experience both effects, and when it comes to

WDB's, allergens,pathogens and toxins,

why would we try to rule out any of them.

I think either has the potential to make one severly ill.

than,there is a point with WDB exposures where it isn't so much about the body

anymore and becomes more about the exposure, I lived through that. at that point

I dont think it mattered if if was allergic or toxic. my body couldn't keep up

with what was happing to it,it didn't have a chance to even think about it.

I think very highly of Shoemaker but even he did not go beyond what he views as

a WDB exposure and what happened to me.

I dont like being put in a box with everyone else when I am proof

that these exposures can go beyond what is being reconized as far as the damage

that can accure.

I am prone to re-accureing meningitis and it's probably going to end up killing

me, sooner or later, I'm still young, whats going to happen when I'm older?

from what I can see it can happen by two ways, either though the nasal route or

up the back of the neck.

this is fricken hard to live with. it really makes all else pale in comparision.

I really need to see a expert in brain damage and

one that knows the routes that can get damaged allowing re-accuring meningitis,

one that might possably understand what has happened to me. I really dont think

it would be wise to have surgery to correct one without correcting the other at

the same time, if even possable, scunts scar me, exspecially if the nasal route

isn't dealt with and visa-versa. I'm in trouble here, this is wearing me down.

I fell like if these problems could be fixed I might actually get some of my

life back, but nothing as far as treatment has helped me like it has others.