Guest guest Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Tug, Thanks for the lab report. It answers a couple of questions but not others. Overall, and considering the same assumptions in my previous e- mail, these are extremely low numbers for both the inside and the outside airborne viable mold spores. Also, the types of viable spores inside is " generally " similar to the viable spores outside. But the answer to your questions remains, " It depends. " Here are some of the reasons why: Unanswered questions: 1. Why were these locations selected? Specifically, the EMLab P & K Web site specifies: " Sampling locations should include problem areas, an indoor non-problem area if available, and an outdoor sample (or samples) for interpretation. " The outside sample is identified but the other three aren't. For example, if one areas was the known problem area and the viable spores counts were not higher than the non-problem area(s) then either mold is not an issue or the mold is not viable. Meaning it won't grow on a culture plate. Because spore and hyphal fragments counts have been demonstrated to be as much as 100-1000 times greater than intact viable spores we can't eliminate mold as an issue. 2. What was the weather like during the outside sample? If raining or snowing that could account for the low numbers. If it was windy I'd expect higher numbers unless the ground was covered with snow. What was the temperature? If near or below freezing then the agar could freeze and the spores would bounce off the surface and never be detected. 3. What is the history of the house in terms of water leaks, condensation, floods, pipe breaks? If the house previously had moisture problems then I would suspect it has been adequately remediated and cleaned.If there were no such history then I would be inclined to say this confirms that history for mold growth. But not for bacteria, MVOCs and other components of the " filth caused by moisture. " 4. If the non-viable components are at high levels then you could very well be reactive to the house because this data only shows viable spores. 5. Why were culturable samples collected and not those for microscopy? Why air and not surface samples? Why no bacteria or mycotoxins especially since your major concerns have been with mycotoxins? 6. Despite the excellent reputation of the company collecting the samples, they provide no interpretation. I have no idea how to answer the questions above, plus others. And those answers are critical to interpreting the numbers. I suggest you call them and ask for the report identifying the questions they intended to be answered with the sampling. Questions which could not be answered in any other manner. Finally, there is still insufficient information to answer your questions of: Can you be reacting to these levels? My best answer remains, " It depends. " Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Thank you Carl your a God send, I'll try to answer your questions the best I can. These tests were taken last January and the weather if I remember correctly was much like the weather we've been having lately but it wasn't nearly as warm with very little to no snow on the ground. Then reason why Bob's assistant picked those specific areas was because they caused me some concern specifically the basement. A couple of years ago the hvac had some issues with cat hair clogging up the drain which in turn caused it to over flow much like V's but it was an isolated incident and was taken care of immediately. My nephew as you well know works on hvac's for a living took the unit apart cleaned all the cat hair off the coils and replaced the pcv tubing and they haven't had a problem with it since. The kitchen sink had a couple of leaks a few years back and while they weren't severe enough to tear out the bottom of the cabinet the damage was enough to bow the bottom out. I wasn't sure what areas to have tested so I went with what Bobs assistant had suggested. I do remember specifically telling her I wanted to get the air tested as close to the hvac as possible. This house has absolutely no signs of mold growing anywhere if anything its much cleaner than Vs house is so other then the hvac there arent any real problem areas which is why no surface samples were taken. The reason why I had the air samples taken was because I had just moved from my WD condo and not knowing any better I brought some clothes and a couple of flat screen tv's with me. Then I found sick buildings and realized how serious mold exposure can be and realized that I had cross contaminated my sisters house. Naturally I panicked and the only way to put my mind at ease was to pay Bob to come out and have the air samples taken. Ever since my initial exposure I couldn't came back into this house because it would make me dizzy so naturally the first thing that came to mind was mold but now that Im here and Im not feeling as bad as I have in the past I'm finally getting it into my thick skull that its not always about mold and I could be reacting to the chemicals they use to clean the carpets or maybe the laundry detergent, I just don't know. Thanks again Tug > > Tug, > > Thanks for the lab report. It answers a couple of questions but > not others. > > Overall, and considering the same assumptions in my previous e- > mail, these are extremely low numbers for both the inside and the > outside airborne viable mold spores. Also, the types of viable > spores inside is " generally " similar to the viable spores outside. > But the answer to your questions remains, " It depends. " Here are > some of the reasons why: > > Unanswered questions: > > 1. Why were these locations selected? Specifically, the EMLab > P & K Web site specifies: " Sampling locations should include > problem areas, an indoor non-problem area if available, and an > outdoor sample (or samples) for interpretation. " The outside > sample is identified but the other three aren't. > > For example, if one areas was the known problem area and the > viable spores counts were not higher than the non-problem > area(s) then either mold is not an issue or the mold is not viable. > Meaning it won't grow on a culture plate. Because spore and > hyphal fragments counts have been demonstrated to be as much > as 100-1000 times greater than intact viable spores we can't > eliminate mold as an issue. > > 2. What was the weather like during the outside sample? If > raining or snowing that could account for the low numbers. If it > was windy I'd expect higher numbers unless the ground was > covered with snow. What was the temperature? If near or below > freezing then the agar could freeze and the spores would bounce > off the surface and never be detected. > > 3. What is the history of the house in terms of water leaks, > condensation, floods, pipe breaks? If the house previously had > moisture problems then I would suspect it has been adequately > remediated and cleaned.If there were no such history then I > would be inclined to say this confirms that history for mold > growth. But not for bacteria, MVOCs and other components of > the " filth caused by moisture. " > > 4. If the non-viable components are at high levels then you could > very well be reactive to the house because this data only shows > viable spores. > > 5. Why were culturable samples collected and not those for > microscopy? Why air and not surface samples? Why no bacteria > or mycotoxins especially since your major concerns have been > with mycotoxins? > > 6. Despite the excellent reputation of the company collecting the > samples, they provide no interpretation. I have no idea how to > answer the questions above, plus others. And those answers are > critical to interpreting the numbers. I suggest you call them and > ask for the report identifying the questions they intended to be > answered with the sampling. Questions which could not be > answered in any other manner. > > Finally, there is still insufficient information to answer your > questions of: Can you be reacting to these levels? My best > answer remains, " It depends. " > > Carl Grimes > Healthy Habitats LLC > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Tug, I have read all of your posts for a few weeks now and I would say that you have reached a correct conclusion about it not always being mold. Because of mold I am very reactive to all kinds of chemicals like new plastics and new machinery, new construction, new paint, all kinds of fragrances and anything scented. I have to use unscented soaps and detergent. Even unscented detergent I have to rinse well. I could go on. I hope that detoxing, antifungals and so on will help you become less reactive and more tolerant. I know it sure is making a difference for me. anita [] Re: air sample results Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 11:11 AM Thank you Carl your a God send, I'll try to answer your questions the best I can. These tests were taken last January and the weather if I remember correctly was much like the weather we've been having lately but it wasn't nearly as warm with very little to no snow on the ground. Then reason why Bob's assistant picked those specific areas was because they caused me some concern specifically the basement. A couple of years ago the hvac had some issues with cat hair clogging up the drain which in turn caused it to over flow much like V's but it was an isolated incident and was taken care of immediately. My nephew as you well know works on hvac's for a living took the unit apart cleaned all the cat hair off the coils and replaced the pcv tubing and they haven't had a problem with it since. The kitchen sink had a couple of leaks a few years back and while they weren't severe enough to tear out the bottom of the cabinet the damage was enough to bow the bottom out. I wasn't sure what areas to have tested so I went with what Bobs assistant had suggested. I do remember specifically telling her I wanted to get the air tested as close to the hvac as possible. This house has absolutely no signs of mold growing anywhere if anything its much cleaner than Vs house is so other then the hvac there arent any real problem areas which is why no surface samples were taken. The reason why I had the air samples taken was because I had just moved from my WD condo and not knowing any better I brought some clothes and a couple of flat screen tv's with me. Then I found sick buildings and realized how serious mold exposure can be and realized that I had cross contaminated my sisters house. Naturally I panicked and the only way to put my mind at ease was to pay Bob to come out and have the air samples taken. Ever since my initial exposure I couldn't came back into this house because it would make me dizzy so naturally the first thing that came to mind was mold but now that Im here and Im not feeling as bad as I have in the past I'm finally getting it into my thick skull that its not always about mold and I could be reacting to the chemicals they use to clean the carpets or maybe the laundry detergent, I just don't know. Thanks again Tug LLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Thank you for such a thoughtful heart felt post Anita. I just want to put all this behind me, its already cost me everything that ever meant anything to me. Thanks again and God bless > > Tug, > > I have read all of your posts for a few weeks now and I would say that you have reached a correct conclusion about it not always being mold. Because of mold I am very reactive to all kinds of chemicals like new plastics and new machinery, new construction, new paint, all kinds of fragrances and anything scented. I have to use unscented soaps and detergent. Even unscented detergent I have to rinse well. I could go on. > > I hope that detoxing, antifungals and so on will help you become less reactive and more tolerant. I know it sure is making a difference for me. > > anita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Tug and the group, First, thanks, Tug, for your thoughful and detailed answers. Now that I know the lab results are from a year ago and not at V's helps me to comprehend another part of what didn't quite make sense. To everyone, Tug's story over the past year or so is a case study on several key points. 1. Tug was willing to risk being very public about what he was experiencing and HOW he was experiencing it. 2. We were not always patient with him. Which leads to the next point, the most important one of all: 3. He listened to others and to " experts " but made up his own mind based on what he understood and trusted. 4. Even though some of us, including me, thought he made " mistakes, " that judgment was based on where we are in our process, not on where Tug was in his. We must diligently keep in mind that not everyone has the experience we do when we have it. And when they do, it's not the same as ours. We are all different and our experiences are different. When severely impacted like he was, and most of the others who are active here are, our learning experience can be brutally rugged and totally unfair. But we keep on keeping on. Tug, you have been relentless in your pursuit. Even though you still don't know all of what is happening, you now know a lot about what isn't. And that helps to keep you from repeating mistakes. You and I had a disagreement about " extreme avoidance. " I said mistakes are unavoidable and you responded with you can't afford to make mistakes. We are both right but only partly so. The full story is we try to not make mistakes in pursuit of " necessary avoidance " but knowing that we will means we can learn what not to do. Sometimes that is as important as what learning what to do. I've been as honest with you as I've ever been with anyone, Tug. Often privately rather than on-line. I know you didn't like a lot of what I said and maybe you still don't. But I hope you can at least consider some of the more factual information I and others like Dr Thrasher and Jeff May have offered so as to better " fine tune " your continuing journey. Keep us posted because we aren't out of the woods yet and the woods can be pretty big. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- Thank you for such a thoughtful heart felt post Anita. I just want to put all this behind me, its already cost me everything that ever meant anything to me. Thanks again and God bless > > Tug, > > I have read all of your posts for a few weeks now and I would say that you have reached a correct conclusion about it not always being mold. Because of mold I am very reactive to all kinds of chemicals like new plastics and new machinery, new construction, new paint, all kinds of fragrances and anything scented. I have to use unscented soaps and detergent. Even unscented detergent I have to rinse well. I could go on. > > I hope that detoxing, antifungals and so on will help you become less reactive and more tolerant. I know it sure is making a difference for me. > > anita ---------- The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. ---- File information ----------- File: DEFAULT.BMP Date: 15 Jun 2009, 23:10 Size: 358 bytes. Type: Unknown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Carl, all I can really say is my constant and on going exposure has caused such drastic change in my personality so quickly that I don't even know who I am anymore. I see a therapist and because he's like the rest of the medical community isnt familiar with someone in my situation and is limited in the help he can offer. I have pushed the one person who I love more than life itself out of my life and now clearly see that I am truly in this all alone, I want to call her to tell her how sorry I am but I just can't there's no reason why she should have to live this nightmare she deserves much more than to live in this hell. Each time that I move I have become symptomatic within a week but my reactions are always different. Two months ago I lived in a hotel that was 3 years old and well taken care of, after the first week I had the classic symptoms of mold exposure which was mostly light headed and dizziness. Last month I moved into an older hotel and once again after the first week I started having problems with my teeth and gums but I wasn't nearly as light headed. Now that I moved yet again the teeth and gum pain has subsided (thank god) but now I am experiencing problems with balance and coordination. Believe me if anyone knows how difficult I've been it's me but now that I've put my story out for everyone to see take a good look at my life in just the past two months it's completely out of control and I don't have a clue as to how to fix it. It seems the harder I try the worst things get, I can't believe I am having such a difficult time finding a place to live that isn't going to make me sick. > > Tug and the group, > > First, thanks, Tug, for your thoughful and detailed answers. Now > that I know the lab results are from a year ago and not at V's > helps me to comprehend another part of what didn't quite make > sense. > > To everyone, Tug's story over the past year or so is a case study > on several key points. > > 1. Tug was willing to risk being very public about what he was > experiencing and HOW he was experiencing it. > > 2. We were not always patient with him. Which leads to the next > point, the most important one of all: > > 3. He listened to others and to " experts " but made up his own > mind based on what he understood and trusted. > > 4. Even though some of us, including me, thought he made > " mistakes, " that judgment was based on where we are in our > process, not on where Tug was in his. > > We must diligently keep in mind that not everyone has the > experience we do when we have it. And when they do, it's not the > same as ours. We are all different and our experiences are > different. > > When severely impacted like he was, and most of the others who > are active here are, our learning experience can be brutally > rugged and totally unfair. But we keep on keeping on. > > Tug, you have been relentless in your pursuit. Even though you > still don't know all of what is happening, you now know a lot about > what isn't. And that helps to keep you from repeating mistakes. > > You and I had a disagreement about " extreme avoidance. " I said > mistakes are unavoidable and you responded with you can't > afford to make mistakes. We are both right but only partly so. The > full story is we try to not make mistakes in pursuit of " necessary > avoidance " but knowing that we will means we can learn what not > to do. Sometimes that is as important as what learning what to > do. > > I've been as honest with you as I've ever been with anyone, Tug. > Often privately rather than on-line. I know you didn't like a lot of > what I said and maybe you still don't. But I hope you can at least > consider some of the more factual information I and others like Dr > Thrasher and Jeff May have offered so as to better " fine tune " > your continuing journey. Keep us posted because we aren't out of > the woods yet and the woods can be pretty big. > > Carl Grimes > Healthy Habitats LLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Many of us oldies could be considered case studies, we've all been through what Tug is going through. I didn't have it easy when I first came to this group either, thats what lead me to do research. I even got jumped on for my spelling because of no understanding just how bad my brain had been affected. I basicly had to research to prove everything I believed, lead only by my two exposures and what I was liveing through. many dont know that I couldn't even function good enough to get on the computer for several years and it was only after I got into a fairly good apartment and was already learning the art of advoidance quite well because my life depended on it, and I was still a mess. back than someone went on and on about mycotoxins and how they were it, the only thing that caused injury and reactivity, I just knew that wasn't right, but this guy had went on for years about this, many know who this is. he hated me disagreeing with him, and he took it somewhat a demize to his ego when I started looking for other answers besides what he was telling everyone. I dont think anyone really realizes just how hard it was for my brain to read and comprehend, it was a do over ,over and over again, things are hard to get soaked into my brain, it takes repeativeness to get things soaked in and I still haven't relearned how to spell some common everyday words just because I dont use them much, than when I do, I set here and re-write them over and over trying to figure out what looks right or I just say to heck with it, figure it out. heres the point, we have alot more answers and better understanding now of what happens to us, not blowing my own horn, maybe I am, but I do fell my research helped. plus I fell it's help me by forceing my brain to work when it didn't want to, I fell like my brain is not going to recover much more than it has as far as certain memory,recall,and a severe problem still with keeping my mind of tract of what I'm trying to do. when I came here, and still, I suffered a few things others didn't, it made it really hard but I was doing the research to back up what I tried to say, if nothing else but to get it soaked into my own brain. it's been years, I remember posting research that I hadn't tottally read or soaked in and whould get feedback from the group, that was really when everyone here was pretty long term and we all read and gave feed back and started understanding what had happened to us. been a long hard road. I think it's overdue that the terms MCS and extreme advoidance be terms that are no longer used in this group. and really when people come here if they can first get a understanding of the chronic inflammatory reaction syndrome and understand that they are now most likely to be reactive to many things besides mold, it well help them to help theirself much quicker. people that run in a ongoing effort to hide from mold without realizeing what else they can be reacting to , in my opinion are going to just keep running . people also need to realize that the worse you've been injured the more you are going to be left with injury that doesn't just disappear because you got out of a WDB. it is a long road for many of us. finding a good place to live is hard, you got to think about all the things that could be lurking around that well affect you, weither it's goimg from the other renters,family,friends, neighbors, across the street, someones dryer vent, the list goes on and on, but you have to find a place and if it's not perfect, what can you do to make it better? what do you think could aggervate your symptoms and weither or not you can find a way to fix it. not a easy thing to do at all. first you have to realize that it not just about mold. > > Tug and the group, > > First, thanks, Tug, for your thoughful and detailed answers. Now > that I know the lab results are from a year ago and not at V's > helps me to comprehend another part of what didn't quite make > sense. > > To everyone, Tug's story over the past year or so is a case study > on several key points. > > 1. Tug was willing to risk being very public about what he was > experiencing and HOW he was experiencing it. > > 2. We were not always patient with him. Which leads to the next > point, the most important one of all: > > 3. He listened to others and to " experts " but made up his own > mind based on what he understood and trusted. > > 4. Even though some of us, including me, thought he made > " mistakes, " that judgment was based on where we are in our > process, not on where Tug was in his. > > We must diligently keep in mind that not everyone has the > experience we do when we have it. And when they do, it's not the > same as ours. We are all different and our experiences are > different. > > When severely impacted like he was, and most of the others who > are active here are, our learning experience can be brutally > rugged and totally unfair. But we keep on keeping on. > > Tug, you have been relentless in your pursuit. Even though you > still don't know all of what is happening, you now know a lot about > what isn't. And that helps to keep you from repeating mistakes. > > You and I had a disagreement about " extreme avoidance. " I said > mistakes are unavoidable and you responded with you can't > afford to make mistakes. We are both right but only partly so. The > full story is we try to not make mistakes in pursuit of " necessary > avoidance " but knowing that we will means we can learn what not > to do. Sometimes that is as important as what learning what to > do. > > I've been as honest with you as I've ever been with anyone, Tug. > Often privately rather than on-line. I know you didn't like a lot of > what I said and maybe you still don't. But I hope you can at least > consider some of the more factual information I and others like Dr > Thrasher and Jeff May have offered so as to better " fine tune " > your continuing journey. Keep us posted because we aren't out of > the woods yet and the woods can be pretty big. > > Carl Grimes > Healthy Habitats LLC > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Thank you Jeanine, that was a thoughtful post. Thank goodness for spellchecker, my spelling is horrendous not to mention all the words I leave out... oyi > > Many of us oldies could be considered case studies, we've all been through what Tug is going through. > I didn't have it easy when I first came to this group either, thats what lead me to do research. > I even got jumped on for my spelling because of no understanding just how bad my brain had been affected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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