Re: what's the best drainage system for a basement? is it even necessary?

[Guest guest]

My g/f has a sump pump in her basement and was told with my level of

hypersensitivity I should pay to have it completely enclosed as sump pumps wells

provide the perfect environment for mold growth. Something to think about...

>

> several years ago, i lived in a duplex apartment that had inadequate drainage.

the basement flooded 6 times in a month period due to flash floods, pipes

breaking etc. needless to say, i got really sick from the mold growth.

>

> i am now in the process of buying a house. according to the owners who have

lived there for 27 years, the basement was flooded once due to heavy

precipitation. there is a minor leak on one wall which has been cause by a

missing gutter from the upper roof and a short drainage pipe. this will be fixed

immediately. otherwise, moisture levels were all within acceptable levels.

[Guest guest]

Hi Tug,

Good advice. I have tested near some sump pumps in numerous basements. In many

of them, I find elevated levels of many Aspergillus species compared to samples

taken in other areas of the same basements.

Companies that do radon mitigation will usually seal the sumps with an acrylic

barrier at fairly low prices.

Connie Morbach

> >

> > several years ago, i lived in a duplex apartment that had inadequate

drainage. the basement flooded 6 times in a month period due to flash floods,

pipes breaking etc. needless to say, i got really sick from the mold growth.

> >

> > i am now in the process of buying a house. according to the owners who have

lived there for 27 years, the basement was flooded once due to heavy

precipitation. there is a minor leak on one wall which has been cause by a

missing gutter from the upper roof and a short drainage pipe. this will be fixed

immediately. otherwise, moisture levels were all within acceptable levels.

>

[Guest guest]

I am afraid that you are trying to fix one potential problem and may create

another. I if you close up the sump pump area and create a reduced oxygen

content due to microbial growth, the there may a generation of unwanted MVOCs as

well as reduced sulfur gases, e..g. hydrogen sulfide.

[] Re: what's the best drainage system for a basement?

is it even necessary?

Hi Tug,

Good advice. I have tested near some sump pumps in numerous basements. In many

of them, I find elevated levels of many Aspergillus species compared to samples

taken in other areas of the same basements.

Companies that do radon mitigation will usually seal the sumps with an acrylic

barrier at fairly low prices.

Connie Morbach

[Guest guest]

please let me know if i understand correctly. it's better not to install any

drainage system in the basement. in the event of a flood, use a water vacuum or

something else to get the water out asap. thank you.

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> I am afraid that you are trying to fix one potential problem and may create

another. I if you close up the sump pump area and create a reduced oxygen

content due to microbial growth, the there may a generation of unwanted MVOCs as

well as reduced sulfur gases, e..g. hydrogen sulfide.

>

> [] Re: what's the best drainage system for a basement?

is it even necessary?

>

> Hi Tug,

> Good advice. I have tested near some sump pumps in numerous basements. In

many of them, I find elevated levels of many Aspergillus species compared to

samples taken in other areas of the same basements.

>

> Companies that do radon mitigation will usually seal the sumps with an

acrylic barrier at fairly low prices.

>

> Connie Morbach

>

[Guest guest]

are you saying that if the sump pump is seal properly, this will minimize mold

entering indoors?

thank you.

>

> Hi Tug,

> Good advice. I have tested near some sump pumps in numerous basements. In

many of them, I find elevated levels of many Aspergillus species compared to

samples taken in other areas of the same basements.

>

> Companies that do radon mitigation will usually seal the sumps with an acrylic

barrier at fairly low prices.

>

> Connie Morbach

>

[Guest guest]

Sealing it would minimize your exposure to mold that could possibly grow in the

well of the sump but according to Dr Thrasher you now create a different set a

problems so Im not sure what the answer is. Perhaps Carl or Dr Thrasher can

chime in and give us some better insight on how to handle this.

>

> are you saying that if the sump pump is seal properly, this will minimize mold

entering indoors?

> thank you.

[Guest guest]

I did not say no drainage system. The post I responded to was enclosing the

sump area, not draining it.

[] Re: what's the best drainage system for a basement?

is it even necessary?

>

> Hi Tug,

> Good advice. I have tested near some sump pumps in numerous basements. In

many of them, I find elevated levels of many Aspergillus species compared to

samples taken in other areas of the same basements.

>

> Companies that do radon mitigation will usually seal the sumps with an

acrylic barrier at fairly low prices.

>

> Connie Morbach

>

[Guest guest]

thank you for clarifying.

what type of drainage system is recommended? or is having a sealed pump the key

and the type of drainage not as important?

has anyone used the basement system's triple sump pump and water guard drainage

system? i have been warned against it, but didn't catch the reason why.

please keep in mind, i know close to nothing about waterproofing, (trying to

learn quickly with brain cells that are still functioning after mold exposure)

so i apologize for stupid/repeated questions. answers suited for

dummies/beginners would be greatly appreciated.

in gratitude.

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> I did not say no drainage system. The post I responded to was enclosing the

sump area, not draining it.

> ----- Original Message -----

[Guest guest]

A drainage system is the best. Probably would need to treat the effluent with

some sort of antimicrobials. You will also need to look for and clean biofilms.

[] Re: what's the best drainage system for a basement?

is it even necessary?

Sealing it would minimize your exposure to mold that could possibly grow in

the well of the sump but according to Dr Thrasher you now create a different set

a problems so Im not sure what the answer is. Perhaps Carl or Dr Thrasher can

chime in and give us some better insight on how to handle this.

>

> are you saying that if the sump pump is seal properly, this will minimize

mold entering indoors?

> thank you.

[Guest guest]

how would you treat the effluent and with what specifically? also why is this

necessary?

where are you looking for biofilm and how do you test for it? and how is the

best way to clean biofilm?

thank you.

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> A drainage system is the best. Probably would need to treat the effluent with

some sort of antimicrobials. You will also need to look for and clean biofilms.

>

>

[Guest guest]

momo there's allot of us here that are experiencing the same kind of brain fog

you are, we completely understand, no need to apologize.

>

> thank you for clarifying.

> what type of drainage system is recommended? or is having a sealed pump the

key and the type of drainage not as important?

> has anyone used the basement system's triple sump pump and water guard

drainage system? i have been warned against it, but didn't catch the reason why.

> please keep in mind, i know close to nothing about waterproofing, (trying to

learn quickly with brain cells that are still functioning after mold exposure)

so i apologize for stupid/repeated questions. answers suited for

dummies/beginners would be greatly appreciated.

> in gratitude.

>

[Guest guest]

Momoko,

If water is rare, it's not worth the expense. In my experience, most basement

water problems are due to improper dispersal of roof water. Spend some money on

subsurface dispersal of water to daylight. Make sure that all the grading is

correct.Purchase a Santa Fe dehumidifier. Clean the basement so that you can eat

off of any surface.

May

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

www.mayindoorair.com

>

> several years ago, i lived in a duplex apartment that had inadequate drainage.

the basement flooded 6 times in a month period due to flash floods, pipes

breaking etc. needless to say, i got really sick from the mold growth.

>

> i am now in the process of buying a house. according to the owners who have

lived there for 27 years, the basement was flooded once due to heavy

precipitation. there is a minor leak on one wall which has been cause by a

missing gutter from the upper roof and a short drainage pipe. this will be fixed

immediately. otherwise, moisture levels were all within acceptable levels.

>

> i had basement systems evaluate the basement and they recommended their triple

safe sump pump and water guard drainage system. it will cost around 5k for

equipment and installation. considering the circumstances and the fact that what

i'm looking for is a drainage system for emergency flooding, does this drainage

system sound like a good idea?

>

> did anyone actually use basement systems? if so, what was your experience?

>

> thank you scott for your suggestions. i'm just looking for more opinions.

>

> thanks!

>

[Guest guest]

thank you for your response.

please clarify what you mean by " subsurface dispersal of water to daylight. "

many thanks.

>

> Momoko,

>

> If water is rare, it's not worth the expense. In my experience, most basement

water problems are due to improper dispersal of roof water. Spend some money on

subsurface dispersal of water to daylight. Make sure that all the grading is

correct.Purchase a Santa Fe dehumidifier. Clean the basement so that you can eat

off of any surface.

>

> May

> May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

> www.mayindoorair.com

[Guest guest]

but she states that basement has already flooded , then there is a leak too ,

would it be a good thing to even consider this property ???

> i am now in the process of buying a house. according to the owners who have

lived there for 27 years, the basement was flooded once due to heavy

precipitation. there is a minor leak on one wall which has been cause by a

missing gutter from the upper roof and a short drainage pipe. this will be fixed

immediately. otherwise, moisture levels were all within acceptable levels.

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: jmhiaq <jeff@...>

Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 8:44:43 PM

Subject: [] Re: what's the best drainage system for a basement? is

it even necessary?

Momoko,

If water is rare, it's not worth the expense. In my experience, most basement

water problems are due to improper dispersal of roof water. Spend some money on

subsurface dispersal of water to daylight. Make sure that all the grading is

correct.Purchase a Santa Fe dehumidifier. Clean the basement so that you can eat

off of any surface.

May

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

www.mayindoorair.com

[Guest guest]

Momoko,

The water from every downspout should enter a 4-inch, solid (non-perforated)

schedule 40 pipe and be carried away (by gravity, i.e. proper sloping of about

1/8-inch per foot of lineal run) from the foundation to a distance of at least 6

feet. If you have plantings around the house, create a deep landscape furrow at

the border of the plantings and the lawn. Water from the downspout can drain

into the furrow (which must be maintained). This will keep all roof water

several feet away from the foundation.

If the land slopes away from the house for a distance, it is preferable to dig a

trench to any convenient location and extend the pipe as far away as possible.

It should discharge to daylight, not into a buried drywell. Only the end of the

pipe needs to be exposed and it can be disguised with a planting if you like. If

the pipe goes into a row of trees or shrubs that borders a neighbor, you may

want to dig a slight trench to distribute the water along the property line.

Sometimes more than one downspout can be connected to the same subsurface pipe

(which does not have to be buried more than 2 or 3 inches below the surface). As

long as you don't have lots of tree roots to contend with, this is an

inexpensive and very effective way of removing roof water from around the

foundation. If you cannot dig yourself, most landscape companies can do this

work.

The vertical downspout should enter a short section of vertical PVC pipe which

then enters the nearly horizontal drainage pipe via a 90 degree elbow (which is

below grade). The pipe sections (usually 10 foot sections), elbows and couplings

and adhesive are all available in stores like Home Depot and Lowes. Do not use

perforated or flexible pipe for this project, or less than Schedule 40 PVC pipe;

thinner piping tends to crack or be crushed.

If you want to prove to yourself how effective this will be, put water from a

hose (about 1 to 2 gallons per minute, calibrated by timing the filling of a

bucket) onto the ground at location near the foundation where downspout or roof

water normally accumulates. Sometimes, you will get water in the basement within

a minute or two! If no water comes into the basement in about 10-15 minutes,

then that location may not be the source of basement water.

May

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

www.mayindoorair.com

> >

> > Momoko,

> >

> > If water is rare, it's not worth the expense. In my experience, most

basement water problems are due to improper dispersal of roof water. Spend some

money on subsurface dispersal of water to daylight. Make sure that all the

grading is correct.Purchase a Santa Fe dehumidifier. Clean the basement so that

you can eat off of any surface.

> >

> > May

> > May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

> > www.mayindoorair.com

>

[Guest guest]

No, not keep mold from entering the building, but prevent contaminants from

ground water from being aerosolized when the sump agitates the water. This also

minimizes sub-soil gasses and voc's from entering the basement from the sump.

You might want to add a complete radon system to de-pressurize the basement

relative to the living spaces.

Connie

> >

> > Hi Tug,

> > Good advice. I have tested near some sump pumps in numerous basements. In

many of them, I find elevated levels of many Aspergillus species compared to

samples taken in other areas of the same basements.

> >

> > Companies that do radon mitigation will usually seal the sumps with an

acrylic barrier at fairly low prices.

> >

> > Connie Morbach

> >

>

[Guest guest]

thank you for your in depth explanation. much appreciated!

> >

> > thank you for your response.

> > please clarify what you mean by " subsurface dispersal of water to daylight. "

> > many thanks.

[Guest guest]

Remember, there is difference in needs and situations being discussed. A drain

system requirement means water is continually coming in and needs to be

continually removed. See my post on the trench system for details on that type.

Sump pumps are designed for regular use. That means you have a continual influx

of water or you have regular backups and flood into the space. If you have rare

flooding, then you will need to pay careful attention to the long term

maintenance of the pump, battery, float switch, etc.

If water is continually in the sump, the sump continually turns on and off. It

becomes a maintenance issue too, but the awareness is better.

There are floor/surface alarms you can install to detect and warn of leaks and

floods, great for near water tanks, or near the likely input of flood water

(i.e., floor drain, window, low spot).

A continually wet sump needs to be regularly cleaned to prevent biofilm growth,

whether you're concerned about mold or bacteria, it'll probably be growing

there.

It is probably best to have a response plan in place, who to call, what to

remove, how to suck out or drain, what contents to protect, etc.

These would be wiser and cheaper in the short and long run.

If the maintenance of the pump is not an issue, than you will definitely feel

protected from flooding.

Again, a good floor drain system and management of contents will work just as

well to prevent the mold growth you fear.

Remember, mold takes 24-48 hours to germinate - that does not mean it's visible

nor does it mean it's producting spores. that takes days to weeks, depending on

the conditions.

A typical response plan will prevent the conditions conducive to growth during

and after the flood. I.e., drain quickly, ventilate out the humidity if it gets

high, move all wet and soaked contents, make sure water is not hidden or trapped

behind walls, under flooring, or other components.

When drained, clean with typical cleaners appropriate for the water type. There

is an industry standard to follow that will guide you and any contractor for

cleaning up flood water and for cleaning up mold.

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> A drainage system is the best. Probably would need to treat the effluent with

some sort of antimicrobials. You will also need to look for and clean biofilms.

>