Re: Mold in my aprtment? help interpret mold test that was done by a

[Guest guest]

I must step in again. All of you are centered on the molds and mycotoxins.

These contaminants are only part of the problem. Bacteria, both Gram negative

and positive, are also present in moisture damaged structures. Why do I mention

this? The Gram positive organisms are also dangerous and their toxins interact

with the mold mycotoxins. The group of gram positive bacteria (Actinobacteria)

that need to be identified in the indoor environments are: Mycobacterium,

Streptomyces, Corynebacterium, Nocardia, Propionibacterium (Both thermophilic

and mesophilic species). As an example of the potential health problems from

these bacteria, let us take the genus, Mycobacterium. It contains well over 150

different species. The most famous are M. tuberculosis and M. leprosi.

However, there is also a group of nontuberculin Mycobacterium (NTM) that are

responsible for an illness called Mycobacterium Avium Complex (MAC). Below is a

link to the American Thoracic Society review of MAC written in 2007. I suggest

all of you carefully read it. One must culture for the presence of these

bacteria. The most reliable method is bulk samples. Culture for the bacteria

at 55 and 37 degrees centigrade. The reason for this is that some of these

bacteria are thermophilic and are more dangerous than the mesophilic bacteria.

Also, the gram negative bacteria shed endotoxins. Endotoxins are known to act

synergistically with mycotoxins. Endotoxins should also be tested.

Above, there is a series of comments regarding Sue and her son. I have been to

their home. A visual inspection of the home revealed little if any information

with respect to mold. However, I did see growth that appeared to be

Actinobacteria. I am testing for the presence of these gram positive organisms

as well as molds and mycotoxins (HEPA filter of the HVAC system). We will have

to wait for the outcome of the mold/mycotoxin and gram negative/positive

cultures for me to make further statements.

The Actinobacteria are difficult to culture from human samples (sputum,

biopsies, etc.). The only reliable testing available to identify an infections

is PCR 16s ribosomal DNA.

Finally, to demonstrate how dangerous some species of Mycobacterium can be I

will briefly discuss two species: ulcerans and marinum. Ulcerans is endemic to

the Tropics of the world. Marinum is found in the waters of the World. The

latest reports on Marinum is that it is present in the coastal waters of

Florida, Gulf Mexico and California (probably other waters which have not been

tested). Marinum loves water and is also responsible for infections in sport

fishermen (fresh and salt water) as well as individuals who have aquariums.

These two species produce a toxin, Mycolactone, that causes necrotic lesions of

the skin and erosion and damage to underlying skeletal muscle. Scientists in

this field are slowly identifying other species that have the genes to produce

Mycolactone. Only time will tell.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

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http://171.66.122.149/cgi/reprint/175/4/367

[Guest guest]

Yes, you may share the information

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

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message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

Carl: You comments regarding the training of CIH personnel is very timely.

Everyone must realize that these individuals are not trained in basic

toxicology, bacteriology, mycolology, virology as well as any aspects of human

health and physiology. They are what they are " Industrial Hygienist " trained

for industrial settings, OSHA and NIOSH regulations. I have even had comments

from some who clearly state that they design their reports for the client. If

the client is an insurance company, then so be it.

Is there anyway that the course work for the so called training of CIH

individuals on the subject of WDB can obtained?

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

Sam: You have asked some good questions. The answers are not precise. First

of all, where do the bacteria come from? They are normally found in soil,

plants and water. For example, Mycobacterium have a very thick cell wall and as

a result are resistant to chlorination. They are in the tap water. They are

the source of humidifier fever and hot tub hypersensitivity pneumonitis.

Therefore, they are contaminants that will be present from the manufacturing

process as well as from domestic sources. There is sufficient information in

the literature that demonstrates when water is added to building materials,

these organisms flourish right along with the mold.

With respect to other contaminants, the issue is not clear. Studies that have

been published have shown that Actinobacteria do produce toxins. The toxins

adversely affect the functions of cells in vitro. One study showed that they

are inflammatory to the lungs of mice. The problem is that the toxins have not

been clearly identified as to their chemical structure. A few have, such as the

antibiotics produced by several different Actinobacteria (Streptomyces,

Micrococcus, Mycobacterium). These organisms are mass cultured by

pharmaceutical companies in order to isolate the antibiotics. Also, some of

these organisms are the source of chemotherapeutic agents used to treat cancer

victims. As an example, Streptomyces californicus produces an antibiotic,

Valinomycin. Valinomycin is very toxic. The studies out of Europe have shown

that this particular antibiotic is synergistic with trichothecenes and is more

toxic than trichothecenes. I have not seen any studies (there may be some) that

have looked for these toxins in the indoor environment.

Endotoxins are released by Gram negative bacteria. These lipopolysaccharides

have been demonstrated to act synergistically with macrocyclic trichothecenes

and Aflatoxin B1 in animal models. If they are synergistic in animals, the

assumption is they are synergistic in humans. Endotoxin testing is nor normally

carried out by CIH individuals. I have done a few homes and workplaces and have

found them to be very elevated in WDB situations. They are in the indoor air

and dust in these structures.

With respect to viruses. I would have to search the literature.

Protozoa (amoeba, flagellates and ciliates) have also been isolated from wet

building materials. Their role in SBS has not been fully clarified.

The answers to your questions will eventually come forth. However, as long as

the CDC, EPA, ACOEM. CPSC, HUD and all of the other alphabets keep turning their

heads, the answers may never come.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.