Re: New member - need mold remediator recom.

Posted October 3, 2010 · October 3, 2010

LInda,

You don't need a remediator. You need a lawyer to get funds

from the seller to correct the problems they hid and didn't

disclose. (I'd usually say to " unwind " the deal but a cabin on 5

acres with plans to build a new house anyway is more significant

than the cabin issues).

To support that, you need a professional - on structures, not on

mold - to invesitagate and document the conditions as they are

now and to show that the sellers had to know about the

conditions and therefore lied on the disclosure form.

That professional should be told that they will not be hired to do

the work. Otherwise you get their opinion of what they want to do

rather than what you need. I guarantee that if you get 3-4 bids

they will be in a range of 10 times each other. Which do you

choose? You need an independent opinion.

The dry rot and other water damage should be your focus. These

are structural issues more important than, and not as

controversial as, mold. They are more important than the mold

because it sounds like the structural integrity of the cabin may be

at risk. In which case removing or rebuilding the cabin takes the

mold with it.

If you focus only on the mold the sellers can hire someone to

come in and " test " and concluded that there is, of course, no

mold problem. They can also bring in " experts " who will say the

mold isn't a health problem. And they will use those arguments to

claim there is " no problem " of any kind.

Focus on the obvious and documentable water damage. The cost

to fix the structure could 10's of thousands of dollars, or more.

You will need a remediator only if the cabin doesn't need to be

gutted to remove the water damage.

And before you hire your own remediator, you still need a

professional assessment of where the damage occurs, how to

remediate it, and how to protect the unaffected areas (if there are

any) from cross-contamination. If you ask a remediator you will

get bids in a range as much as 10 times each other. Why?

Because they focus on what they know and what they can do for

how much money. Nothing wrong with that, in itself. The problem

is it rarely matches what you need.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Hi everyone,

Sorry to bother you all with a question that probably is repeated over and

over, but I glanced through the Files and Links and did not see any list of

recommended remediators.

We just purchased a cabin in western WA on our dream 5 acres. The plan

was to build a healthy house on the property and convert the cabin into a

rental. (Me and the kids deal with Lyme).

Anyway, the previous owner did an amazing job of hiding the mold, by

slapping up a new roof- covering up all the dry rot joists and mold in roof

bays. He also slapped a new coat of varnish on the tongue and groove

cedar which covers the walls and ceilings of the interior. The varnish and

cedar had such a strong smell we didn't notice the mold.

The very edge of the roof was bad so we went to replace it, tore off a few

shingles and the nightmare began as we just kept tearing off shingles and

sheathing. A friend brought a flashlight in the house with a bluish

halogen bulb and it looks like mold all over the walls and ceiling.

Now with disturbing the roof, we've shaken all kinds of spores loose in

the cabin.

I am so frightened to be around the cabin and want to find out exactly

what kind of mold we are dealing with and how to get ride of it.

The sellers lied on their Form 17/disclosure and this will become a legal

issue.

Sorry to post such a basic question. I can't believe after being a seasoned

poster on my Lyme group, that I am now a newbie to something just as

terrible. I sympathize with anyone going through something so horrible

and truly appreciate your time.

Thank you,

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Posted October 3, 2010 · October 3, 2010

Barb, I wish I was Lyme free - it's a hopeful email addy. :-( I've been

treating for a year now, along with co-infections.)

Carl, thanks for your advice. Believe me a lawyer is on my list for first

thing in the morning. Yes, some of the joists are rotten and need to be

replaced and we will focus on the construction cost.

It will be interesting to see what a lawyer will say. I get the 'experts

will say it's not a problem', had hoped it was more recognizable than Lyme.

I would really like to get someone in there who can test for different

strains. Almost the entire interior; walls and ceiling are tongue and

groove cedar. The T & G is nailed directly to the roof joists - so obviously

it must come down to reconstruct, but there is also T & G on most of the

walls. With a blue light you can see the mold. It's probably in the side

walls, who knows, maybe there is dry rot there also, haven't looked yet.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is basically with the amount of mold the

place should be gutted. Unless there are harmless types. (?) And if there is

mold on the wall framing - what do we do?

The other thing is that this lawsuit will probably take a long time and we

will want to move forward with our plans. I think fixing the cabin will be

step 1. So, having a (trustworthy) remediator would be beneficial for my

peace of mind.

I've looked on the internet, but I've heard these guys can really range from

excellent to thieves - and knowledgeable to moron. The bad thing is, I

don't know what questions to ask them to screen them. (Now, if it were a

Lyme doc, I'd be all over it.)

Thanks,

On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> wrote:

>

> LInda,

>

> You don't need a remediator. You need a lawyer to get funds

> from the seller to correct the problems they hid and didn't

> disclose. (I'd usually say to " unwind " the deal but a cabin on 5

> acres with plans to build a new house anyway is more significant

> than the cabin issues).

>

> To support that, you need a professional - on structures, not on

> mold - to invesitagate and document the conditions as they are

> now and to show that the sellers had to know about the

> conditions and therefore lied on the disclosure form.

>

> That professional should be told that they will not be hired to do

> the work. Otherwise you get their opinion of what they want to do

> rather than what you need. I guarantee that if you get 3-4 bids

> they will be in a range of 10 times each other. Which do you

> choose? You need an independent opinion.

>

> The dry rot and other water damage should be your focus. These

> are structural issues more important than, and not as

> controversial as, mold. They are more important than the mold

> because it sounds like the structural integrity of the cabin may be

> at risk. In which case removing or rebuilding the cabin takes the

> mold with it.

>

> If you focus only on the mold the sellers can hire someone to

> come in and " test " and concluded that there is, of course, no

> mold problem. They can also bring in " experts " who will say the

> mold isn't a health problem. And they will use those arguments to

> claim there is " no problem " of any kind.

>

> Focus on the obvious and documentable water damage. The cost

> to fix the structure could 10's of thousands of dollars, or more.

> You will need a remediator only if the cabin doesn't need to be

> gutted to remove the water damage.

>

> And before you hire your own remediator, you still need a

> professional assessment of where the damage occurs, how to

> remediate it, and how to protect the unaffected areas (if there are

> any) from cross-contamination. If you ask a remediator you will

> get bids in a range as much as 10 times each other. Why?

> Because they focus on what they know and what they can do for

> how much money. Nothing wrong with that, in itself. The problem

> is it rarely matches what you need.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

>

Posted October 3, 2010 · October 3, 2010

What's a blue light? I've heard of black lights but not blue.

>

With a blue light you can see the mold. It's probably in the side

> walls, who knows, maybe there is dry rot there also, haven't looked yet.

>

Posted October 4, 2010 · October 4, 2010

,

My responses:

As Barb asked, what is a blue light? Is that UV? If so,

interpretation is tricky because some molds are fluorescent and

some absorb UV, creating a very black " dead looking " spot.

Types of mold cannot be identified by UV. A red light will highlight

some molds also, but differently than UV, or daylight, or

incandescent bulbs.

If the cabin is gutted you don't need containment. What is there to

contain? The entire interior will be opened and remediated.

The types of mold make no difference. The need to remove is the

same (there are no safe ones but not all are always " killer " molds)

and the remediation methods are the same no matter what kind

of mold, bacteria, rot, and filth is involved. If you are curious then

whomever you hire for testing needs to understand and agree

with what you want or you will get a routine batch of numbers

according to his beliefs and intepreted his way rather than how

you want it. Also, the molds which rot wood are not the same as

the molds which are commonly airborne. If you send bulk sample

of rotted wood you won't get results representative of your

exposure.

Do not waste money on products and procedures for " killing

mold. " It needs to be removed. If the cabin is gutted then most of

the mold will be removed and there will be little if nothing to kill.

And killing it doesn't make it " safe. " Dead mold is just as much a

concern as live mold. Testing to verify " no mold " is inadequate for

verifying that bacteria and all the multitude of mold and bacterial

components are also removed.

If the framing isn't rotted to the point it is structurally unsound

then removing mold from the surface with abrasives is best.

These include sanding, wire brushing or ice blasting (or soda

blasting, or equivalent).

Qualifying a remediator:

1. Ask them which standard or guidance they follow. ANSI-IICRC

S520, NYC Dept of Health, EPA, or their own? If their own get a

copy and have it reviewed by an independent professional who is

familiar with the published industry documents. If they claim those

above, then often they know to cite them but don't follow them.

80% of the reports I review which cite the above documents don't

follow them. They only cite them.

2. Do they insist on using chemicals and anti-microbials? If so, I'd

keep looking. It's a great profit center for them but unnecessary

for almost all situations. Also, the chemicals become an exposure

source for you and your family. How do you remove chemicals? If

you decide to allow their use insist that they must get written

approval from you first. That notification must specify the product

and MSDS. And the EPA registration number if it claims to kill or

control mold or bacteria.

3. It helps, but isn't always necessary, that they belong to a

quality professional organization. One that is a non-profit and

whose education is based on objective, third-party expertise.

Otherwise you will get whatever they make the most money from

selling you. Find someone from www.ascr.org or www.iaqa.org

or www.iicrc.org or www.neha.org.

If the organization has their own certification for their own training

- BEWARE! Certification and training should be independent.

4. Certifications: It helps, but isn't always necessary, that they be

certified. There are hundreds of certifications being promoted and

only a few are trustworthy or reliable. Most are self-serving and

not objective with any expert support. Check the new HUD site

which contains a list of certifications that are independent and

3rd party accredited. www.hhcontractors.org.

5. They should be willing to specifically agree to your individual

needs, not just their routine protocol.

6. *Independent* verification of their scope, their work practices,

and on-site management is often critical. Otherwise they verify

their own work and whoever heard of anyone admitting they

made a mistake? The more sensitive you are the more important

this is.

7. The scope of work for mold remediation should not be

developed only by the remediator. They will specify what they

want whether you need it or not. You need an independent

consultant.

8. The structural evaluation and work is more important than the

mold remediation. Get the structural requirements first. And, if the

entire cabin is gutted, the mold remediation doesn't have to be as

precise as when only parts of it are.