Re: Please Explain

[Guest guest]

Hi Rosemary,

Please cheer up. Why worry about something that hasn't even happened yet

and probably never will? Think about this. Even IF the weight loss pretty

much stops at 18 months, you still have 8 months to go

and at that point you will NOT be 100 pounds overweight!!! Besides, if you

look at the chart on Dr. R's site, you will see that people DO lose weight

between 18 months and 24 months. (His chart didn't go past 2 years last I

checked.) So...you are going to keep losing at least til 2 years and by

then you will have lost almost if not all of the weight you want to lose!!

You're doing great!

Hugs,

H.

03/13/01

274/237.5/155

On Sun, 20 May 2001 19:45:44 -0700, wrote:

> Hi everybody,

> I've dropped out of site for the past few months. Just really depressed

> about everything. I've been reading and following just not posting much.

> Can someone please explain this 18 month window for me?????

> I had my surgery on 7/24/00 and weighed 347 pounds. Here I am 10 month

> later and I guess around 80-85 pounds lost. I haven't weighed since late

> February at my pcp so I'm really not sure what I weigh. My home scales

are

> very unreliable. They had me at 257.5 on Saturday. Usually my pcp

weighs

> me about 10 pounds more so that would put me at about 267. My next pcp

> appointment is for July so it will be one year then.

> I am so scared I went through this surgery, paid all the money and this

is

> it. I only have 6 months left if that is what the window thing means. I

> can no way afford a revision, so what I have is what I get.

> Please can someone tell me, I wrote to Dr. R, and for the first time

since

> my surgery, he didn't reply. I am so scared and worried. I don't want

to

> weigh 250 pounds the rest of my life. (Of course 250 is better than

350!)

> The flabby body I now have is pretty awful but if I weighed under 200 I

> could deal with it! I mean 199 would be fine with me. I may have only

lost

> 80-85 pounds but I sure can tell it in my legs, arms, and tummy. They are

> still fat, but are very soft, where before they were fat but firm! But I

can

> live with it, my sweet hubby says he loves me regardless, and my kids say

> they love me too, and are tickled they can reach around me now,

> but....................I so wanted to weigh a " normal " weight just once

in

> my life, where when someone ask how much I weigh I wouldn't be

embarrassed.

> I'm really happy for all you guys who have lost so much, but in honesty I

am

> jealous. I keep blaming myself, it must be something I'm doing.

Everybody

> seems to think the bigger you are the easier it is to lose, but I don't

see

> that happening here. ( I am sitting here bawling my eyes out now, I

> have wanted to voice this for so long but just don't want everybody to

blast

> me, or worse yet ignore me! Please somebody tell me, if we don't lose

all

> our weight at 18 months there is no more hope for the surgery to help

> us????? How can this be??? I don't understand, with the small amount we

> eat why would our bodies just stop losing at 18 months if we are still

100

> pounds over weight?????

> Rosemary Locklear

> Re: TODAY IS MY 6 MO ANNIVERSARY

>

>

> > :

> > It is much too early to get frustrated yet. Hang in there, you are

> > doing great. Give it more time. The window of opportunity is like 18

> > months. You are only 1/3 of the way.

> > Pam from land

> > MGB 9/25/00

> > 296/199

>

>

_______________________________________________________

Send a cool gift with your E-Card

http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/

[Guest guest]

I am 2 yrs out and only 40 lbs

>From: " Rosemary Locklear " <rosemarylocklear@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: Re: please explain

>Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 21:02:39 -0700

>

>Thanks ,

>I didn't mean to whine and cause every body to get upset, I was just

>worried

>about the " 18 month window " thing. Like I've said, I don't mind it taking

>me a long time to lose, cause it certainly took me a long time to get here,

>40 years to be exact! **a little big stronger smile than the last post** I

>just got worried that maybe I needed to speed things up if this is all the

>time I have. I think you must be right, if we are still 100+ pounds

>overweight surly we will continue to lose regardless of how slow

>right????????????

>Thanks,

>Rosemary Locklear

> Re: TODAY IS MY 6 MO ANNIVERSARY

> > >

> > >

> > > > :

> > > > It is much too early to get frustrated yet. Hang in there, you are

> > > > doing great. Give it more time. The window of opportunity is like

>18

> > > > months. You are only 1/3 of the way.

> > > > Pam from land

> > > > MGB 9/25/00

> > > > 296/199

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > _______________________________________________________

> > Send a cool gift with your E-Card

> > http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Rosemary: First off, here's a hug. Second...I'm sure you'll keep losing. I think

the 18 month " window " is just the time we lose the most weight. There are others

still losing at two years but much more slowly.

I won't tell you not to panic. You are just expressing your feelings and you're

entitled to your feelings. We don't really control them, they just come and we

do the best we can with them.

None of us can really tell you that you will weigh what you want to weigh. None

of us can tell you " not to feel " a certain way. You feel how you feel. But we

can promise to be here with you during this journey if you'll stick around and

let us give you cyberhugs day by day. That's really all we can do for you.

Flo

> ** Original Subject: RE: please explain

> ** Original Sender: " Rosemary Locklear " <rosemarylocklear@...>

> ** Original Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 19:51:58 -0600

> ** Original Message follows...

>

> Hi everybody,

> I've dropped out of site for the past few months. Just really depressed

> about everything. I've been reading and following just not posting much.

> Can someone please explain this 18 month window for me?????

> I had my surgery on 7/24/00 and weighed 347 pounds. Here I am 10 month

> later and I guess around 80-85 pounds lost. I haven't weighed since late

> February at my pcp so I'm really not sure what I weigh. My home scales are

> very unreliable. They had me at 257.5 on Saturday. Usually my pcp weighs

> me about 10 pounds more so that would put me at about 267. My next pcp

> appointment is for July so it will be one year then.

> I am so scared I went through this surgery, paid all the money and this is

> it. I only have 6 months left if that is what the window thing means. I

> can no way afford a revision, so what I have is what I get.

> Please can someone tell me, I wrote to Dr. R, and for the first time since

> my surgery, he didn't reply. I am so scared and worried. I don't want to

> weigh 250 pounds the rest of my life. (Of course 250 is better than 350!)

> The flabby body I now have is pretty awful but if I weighed under 200 I

> could deal with it! I mean 199 would be fine with me. I may have only lost

> 80-85 pounds but I sure can tell it in my legs, arms, and tummy. They are

> still fat, but are very soft, where before they were fat but firm! But I can

> live with it, my sweet hubby says he loves me regardless, and my kids say

> they love me too, and are tickled they can reach around me now,

> but....................I so wanted to weigh a " normal " weight just once in

> my life, where when someone ask how much I weigh I wouldn't be embarrassed.

> I'm really happy for all you guys who have lost so much, but in honesty I am

> jealous. I keep blaming myself, it must be something I'm doing. Everybody

> seems to think the bigger you are the easier it is to lose, but I don't see

> that happening here. ( I am sitting here bawling my eyes out now, I

> have wanted to voice this for so long but just don't want everybody to blast

> me, or worse yet ignore me! Please somebody tell me, if we don't lose all

> our weight at 18 months there is no more hope for the surgery to help

> us????? How can this be??? I don't understand, with the small amount we

> eat why would our bodies just stop losing at 18 months if we are still 100

> pounds over weight?????

> Rosemary Locklear

> Re: TODAY IS MY 6 MO ANNIVERSARY

>

>

> > :

> > It is much too early to get frustrated yet. Hang in there, you are

> > doing great. Give it more time. The window of opportunity is like 18

> > months. You are only 1/3 of the way.

> > Pam from land

> > MGB 9/25/00

> > 296/199

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Rosemary-

If you every need to call me remember I am a local number for you. It is

listed as JL Rigsbee in the phone book. June will be my two year

anniversary. I guess I am one of the oldest members still on this list. I

didn't lose any more weight after the 14th month, but I did lose well during

those 14 months. I would still like to lose more weight but I know what I

will have to do to lose it. I was never an avid exerciser. I have hated it

all my life! I pay the fitness center every month and hardly ever go. I

have been my own worst enemy! Here is a hug for you. Call me if you need

to talk. I will be out of school very soon. Maybe we can get together

before I have my plastic surgery. Hang in there!

R

6-14-99

275/155/ ???

Re: TODAY IS MY 6 MO ANNIVERSARY

>

>

> > :

> > It is much too early to get frustrated yet. Hang in there, you are

> > doing great. Give it more time. The window of opportunity is like 18

> > months. You are only 1/3 of the way.

> > Pam from land

> > MGB 9/25/00

> > 296/199

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Littermate,

Missed ya around here, thought you were busy with nursing school.

Hope you're feeling better now. We're going to get this weight off,

it just takes time. My weight loss has dropped off, too, but I think

our bodies need to adjust at certain points before moving on again.

In the 9th month, I only lost 2 lbs. In this 10th month, I've lost

6.5 lbs. without doing anything different. Isn't that strange. So,

don't give up hope, it's too early.

Hubby has 1 more week of this semester and he's home for the month of

June. Yippee!

Hugs,

Bern

TX

MGB 7/24/00

248/167

> Hi everybody,

> I've dropped out of site for the past few months. Just really

depressed

> about everything. I've been reading and following just not posting

much.

> Can someone please explain this 18 month window for me?????

> I had my surgery on 7/24/00 and weighed 347 pounds. Here I am 10

month

> later and I guess around 80-85 pounds lost. I haven't weighed

since late

> February at my pcp so I'm really not sure what I weigh. My home

scales are

> very unreliable. They had me at 257.5 on Saturday. Usually my pcp

weighs

> me about 10 pounds more so that would put me at about 267. My next

pcp

> appointment is for July so it will be one year then.

> I am so scared I went through this surgery, paid all the money and

this is

> it. I only have 6 months left if that is what the window thing

means. I

> can no way afford a revision, so what I have is what I get.

> Please can someone tell me, I wrote to Dr. R, and for the first

time since

> my surgery, he didn't reply. I am so scared and worried. I don't

want to

> weigh 250 pounds the rest of my life. (Of course 250 is better

than 350!)

> The flabby body I now have is pretty awful but if I weighed under

200 I

> could deal with it! I mean 199 would be fine with me. I may have

only lost

> 80-85 pounds but I sure can tell it in my legs, arms, and tummy.

They are

> still fat, but are very soft, where before they were fat but firm!

But I can

> live with it, my sweet hubby says he loves me regardless, and my

kids say

> they love me too, and are tickled they can reach around me now,

> but....................I so wanted to weigh a " normal " weight just

once in

> my life, where when someone ask how much I weigh I wouldn't be

embarrassed.

> I'm really happy for all you guys who have lost so much, but in

honesty I am

> jealous. I keep blaming myself, it must be something I'm doing.

Everybody

> seems to think the bigger you are the easier it is to lose, but I

don't see

> that happening here. ( I am sitting here bawling my eyes out

now, I

> have wanted to voice this for so long but just don't want everybody

to blast

> me, or worse yet ignore me! Please somebody tell me, if we don't

lose all

> our weight at 18 months there is no more hope for the surgery to

help

> us????? How can this be??? I don't understand, with the small

amount we

> eat why would our bodies just stop losing at 18 months if we are

still 100

> pounds over weight?????

> Rosemary Locklear

> Re: TODAY IS MY 6 MO ANNIVERSARY

>

>

> > :

> > It is much too early to get frustrated yet. Hang in there, you

are

> > doing great. Give it more time. The window of opportunity is

like 18

> > months. You are only 1/3 of the way.

> > Pam from land

> > MGB 9/25/00

> > 296/199

[Guest guest]

Thanks Flo! You and both sent a hug, which is exactly what the doctor

ordered here! I don't mind losing slowly, really I don't. I'm use to it

after 10 months I was just petrified that in 18 months it wouldn't matter

what I did I wouldn't be able to lose because my body somehow learned to

survive on the amount of food I currently eat. I'm happy with the surgery,

don't anybody think I'm not, I have not been sick a day since my surgery.

I'm healthier than I have ever been in my entire life. I was just scared

about the 18 month thing is all.

Thanks for responding, (going back to lurking mode now!)

Rosemary

Re: TODAY IS MY 6 MO ANNIVERSARY

> >

> >

> > > :

> > > It is much too early to get frustrated yet. Hang in there, you are

> > > doing great. Give it more time. The window of opportunity is like 18

> > > months. You are only 1/3 of the way.

> > > Pam from land

> > > MGB 9/25/00

> > > 296/199

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thanks ,

I didn't mean to whine and cause every body to get upset, I was just worried

about the " 18 month window " thing. Like I've said, I don't mind it taking

me a long time to lose, cause it certainly took me a long time to get here,

40 years to be exact! **a little big stronger smile than the last post** I

just got worried that maybe I needed to speed things up if this is all the

time I have. I think you must be right, if we are still 100+ pounds

overweight surly we will continue to lose regardless of how slow

right????????????

Thanks,

Rosemary Locklear

Re: TODAY IS MY 6 MO ANNIVERSARY

> >

> >

> > > :

> > > It is much too early to get frustrated yet. Hang in there, you are

> > > doing great. Give it more time. The window of opportunity is like

18

> > > months. You are only 1/3 of the way.

> > > Pam from land

> > > MGB 9/25/00

> > > 296/199

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> _______________________________________________________

> Send a cool gift with your E-Card

> http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Rosemary,

I wish I had some answers for you, but I don't. I do have empathy. I know

that I worry that this will happen to me as well. I don't think there is any

of us that DON'T worry that it could happen.

I agree~~you've lost enough to really notice a big difference, but I too

would want more. Have you tried walking to kick your metabolism up? Are you

taking Citracel? Are you eating ENOUGh or is your body thinking it is in

starvation mode?

These are NOT judgements that you are not doing everything right~~just a

check list I use whenever I feel my body holding on to weight.

The 18 month window is, I believe, the window of time that most of the weight

comes off, although some people will lose more past that time frame.

I hope others have great suggestions for you! Don't give up and do not feel

horrible about yourself. You have made very positive steps and don't quit on

yourself!

HUGS

in Ark

3-08

[Guest guest]

B.J., I'm sorry to hear about your lack of a big weight loss. What has Dr.R

said..? Are you having any other problems? I wish there was soming I could

say or do to make you feel better.

Kathie

[Guest guest]

Hi BJ,

I too, am interested in your history as mentioned. Dr. R told me of

someone who had previous WLS and he told the patient that he was sorry, but he

did all he could do. He said he thought that the mgb might help this woman to

lose some weight. This woman was in N.C.

Please let us know more about your case. We're concerned and DO Care!

Hugs,

in OK

___________________________________________________

Hi BJ,

If you get a chance, can you tell those of us who are new and not

familiar with your history about it. Who are you, where are you

from, when did you have surgery, any complications... etc? Did you

have the gastroplasty and the MGB(Billtroth II loop). How about

previous WLS? What was your starting weight? It's much easier, for

me at least, to communicate with people we know.

in

[Guest guest]

may have revision...if everything settles down In Durham and BCBS will

cooperate....that is a big if

Thanks.

>From: Kathie265@...

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: please explain

>Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:18:19 EDT

>

>B.J., I'm sorry to hear about your lack of a big weight loss. What has Dr.R

>said..? Are you having any other problems? I wish there was soming I could

>say or do to make you feel better.

>

>Kathie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi BJ,

If you get a chance, can you tell those of us who are new and not

familiar with your history about it. Who are you, where are you

from, when did you have surgery, any complications... etc? Did you

have the gastroplasty and the MGB(Billtroth II loop). How about

previous WLS? What was your starting weight? It's much easier, for

me at least, to communicate with people we know.

in VA

> may have revision...if everything settles down In Durham and BCBS

will

> cooperate....that is a big if

> Thanks.

>

>

> >From: Kathie265@a...

> >Reply-@y...

> >@y...

> >Subject: Re: please explain

> >Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:18:19 EDT

> >

> >B.J., I'm sorry to hear about your lack of a big weight loss. What

has Dr.R

> >said..? Are you having any other problems? I wish there was soming

I could

> >say or do to make you feel better.

> >

> >Kathie

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hey sounds like you are doing super! Geez, I hope you plateau will break

loose soon and you will get the weightloss you deserve.

I will pray for you! I know that there could be nothing more frustrating~~

Hope, thoughts and prayers!

in Ark

[Guest guest]

Hey , I just wrote to you, but I'm having some really wicked pain in

what used to be my tummy, so as soon as possible, I'm gonna get " scoped " .

I'll let you know what's next. Thanks. Love, Rexanne, Queen of Tampa

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Yes I am a faithful Citrucel user. Twice a day every single day since

surgery except once which was unavoidable. I do walk, 2-3 miles 4-5 times a

week maybe that is not enough??? I'm not sure about the eating part, I eat

when I'm hungry and stop when I know I have had enough. I promise it is no

where near what my body was use to consuming though prior to surgery. I do

eat most days every 3-4 hours a little something, banana, yogurt, crackers,

popcorn. I only drink juice and water and once in a great while a Gatorade.

(not a big fan of it) I really think I'm doing what I promised Dr. R I

would. I don't mind the slow weight loss I just was scared that in 18

months it would no longer matter. Thanks for responding!

Rosemary Locklear

Re: please explain

> Rosemary,

>

> I wish I had some answers for you, but I don't. I do have empathy. I

know

> that I worry that this will happen to me as well. I don't think there is

any

> of us that DON'T worry that it could happen.

>

> I agree~~you've lost enough to really notice a big difference, but I too

> would want more. Have you tried walking to kick your metabolism up? Are

you

> taking Citracel? Are you eating ENOUGh or is your body thinking it is in

> starvation mode?

>

> These are NOT judgements that you are not doing everything right~~just a

> check list I use whenever I feel my body holding on to weight.

>

> The 18 month window is, I believe, the window of time that most of the

weight

> comes off, although some people will lose more past that time frame.

>

> I hope others have great suggestions for you! Don't give up and do not

feel

> horrible about yourself. You have made very positive steps and don't quit

on

> yourself!

> HUGS

> in Ark

> 3-08

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

what does he do i wonder in a revision ?? an just wanting to know if you

are trying a diet like the carb one or anything like that to see if it will

boost you ??? di

Re: please explain

> >Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:18:19 EDT

> >

> >B.J., I'm sorry to hear about your lack of a big weight loss. What has

Dr.R

> >said..? Are you having any other problems? I wish there was soming I

could

> >say or do to make you feel better.

> >

> >Kathie

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

bypass more intestine, I think. I am always on a diet..currently weight

watchers. I did try the low carb, high protein..lost 8 lbs. Which is better

than nothing.

>From: " justdave " <justdave@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: Re: please explain

>Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:57:18 -0000

>

>what does he do i wonder in a revision ?? an just wanting to know if you

>are trying a diet like the carb one or anything like that to see if it will

>boost you ??? di

>

> Re: please explain

> > >Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:18:19 EDT

> > >

> > >B.J., I'm sorry to hear about your lack of a big weight loss. What has

>Dr.R

> > >said..? Are you having any other problems? I wish there was soming I

>could

> > >say or do to make you feel better.

> > >

> > >Kathie

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

This is , I had my MGB last May a year ago... how can I help you?

PS i m not bj

[Guest guest]

BJ, Did you ever post your history... a more detailed email than your

original. If so, I missed it.

> bypass more intestine, I think. I am always on a diet..currently

weight

> watchers. I did try the low carb, high protein..lost 8 lbs. Which

is better

> than nothing.

>

>

>

> >From: " justdave " <justdave@m...>

> >Reply-@y...

> ><@y...>

> >Subject: Re: please explain

> >Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:57:18 -0000

> >

> >what does he do i wonder in a revision ?? an just wanting to

know if you

> >are trying a diet like the carb one or anything like that to see

if it will

> >boost you ??? di

> >

> > Re: please explain

> > > >Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:18:19 EDT

> > > >

> > > >B.J., I'm sorry to hear about your lack of a big weight loss.

What has

> >Dr.R

> > > >said..? Are you having any other problems? I wish there was

soming I

> >could

> > > >say or do to make you feel better.

> > > >

> > > >Kathie

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Linet Linet Linet!

I dare say that about half the women who do BFL go through this. I cannot

say how many times I've seen a woman close to tears around week 6-7.

So, lemme give you the goods.

First of all, according to the FAQ (http://www.taskoski.com/faq.htm#Link1)

this is common. Some people don't have any visible changes until around

week 8.

Notice: VISIBLE changes. We see ourselves in the mirror every day, and

it's very hard to really " see " what's really happening to us. In fact,

you *are* seeing some results, right? You're starting to see abs? That

means that you are making progress in the right direction! Had you NOT

decided to do BFL, you'd prolly not have abs to see, you know?

Also, don't just focus on the bikini. Bikinis are evil as far as I know

of them. Instead, I try to guage my progress on other things:

- How do you feel in the mornings now?

- Are you feeling more fit?

- Are you getting sick less often?

- Are you more confident?

- Do you get winded less often?

- Are you getting stronger?

- Can you feel muscles developing?

- Are your body fat measurements going down?

- Are your clothes fitting better?

If yes... then congrats, you are right on track!

Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT compare your progress against other people's.

Compare only with yourself. Judge yourself by how YOU feel. Stick it

through the full 12 weeks (hey, if we all got really impressive results in

8-weeks, it would be an 8-week challange, right?) You will be pleased!

Keep up the great work! We're all behind you!

-- gnat!

[Guest guest]

Linet,

All of us have our problem areas- the areas we tend to carry fat and

unfortunately these areas are going to be the last place the fat

leaves. My back fat went first, but my prob area is my abs. I'm

resigned to the fact that I won't see them unless I get down to 1.5%

body fat!! (I'm kidding:) So focus on the fact that you ARE seeing

progress in areas like your abs. Do you have any progress pics?

Many times we see NO progress in the mirror or even in pictures

until other people see them and point it all out to us! You should

NOT be discouraged, you are doing great! Congrats on your

discipline!

Lynda

[Guest guest]

Hi Rosemary,

here is the link to Kirkman's web site. You can read all about TMG and

their other products there.

http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/index.html

Hope this helps.

rosemary player wrote:

>dear all,please could anyone tell me what kirkman`s tmg and dmg is , i keep

seeing it mentioned but haven`t a clue what it is? also does it help with

children that are nonverbal? my daughter josie has autism and is nonverbal at

present( always positive she will speak one day) thankyou so much from rosie,

take care.

>

>

>

>

>

>---------------------------------

>Relive the FIFA World Cup goals with exclusive video highlights!

>

>http://fifaworldcup./fc/en

>

>

[Guest guest]

Start by reading some of the reviews at the link I provided:

For more background information concerning Dr. Orens, please see

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Oasis/6455/activism-links.html#Orens

Art has done a good job of collecting information and opinions on this

subject from other people.

I also included links to PDF documents that give the ENTIRE decision against

him. This decision does explain, I believe in detail, the treatment for

Lyme patients that the OPMC found unacceptable. It also lists his other

infractions in detail, such as " poor record keeping " .

http://w3.health.state.ny.us/opmc/factions.nsf/58220a7f9eeaafab85256b180058c

032/dbc0cd92b656fe7585256a4a0047e555/$FILE/lc082198.pdf

I personally cannot tell you factually whether or not Dr. Orens is a " good

doctor " because he is not my doctor. I can only relay to you information

that others have told me which has been very positive over the years.

I can tell you that the charges brought against him were in relation to how

he treated Lyme disease patients. I believe these charges were an attempt

to discredit a doctor who believes Lyme disease is a difficult disease to

treat. But that is my opinion. I usually try not to promote my opinion,

just the facts that I can verify. I encourage everyone to read the facts

involved in the case and form your own opinion.

I believe you are correct in that this report, this decision, does more harm

than good for our cause. I do not believe telling people about this case

does harm or good, it is simply a presentation of the facts that we all need

to be aware of.

Dr. Orens and his case have been discussed many times since Nov 1999 when he

first lost his license. New York rallies have been held on his behalf. The

discussions have come and gone with news of how his appeals were going. Dr.

Orens is a New York doctor and the recent events in New York activism have

been held in part to help Dr. Orens, as well as the better known New Yorker,

Dr. Burrascano. A search on Lyme Aid or Lyme Aid Documents would reveal

discussions about Dr. Orens, possibly even some testimonials from patients

of his. I am hoping the activism groups of New York will provide more

information about Dr. Orens in the days and weeks to come.

Does this help? Do you have other concerns you would like me to address?

=)

Robynn

[ ] Please explain

I really love the work that Robynn does as an advocate for us

Lymies...

Hoever, I would really love to understand why we keep getting reports of

doctors who are losing their licenses because they treat lymes. Of course,

it's important to know both good and bad doctors, and important to know if

a doctor is being falsely harassed, but just getting the gov report does

nothing to tell me the what, the why, the how, etc. Lately, we heard about

Dr. Orren. I have never heard about him before, and I have no idea if he's

a good doctor or not. Just because he's treated Lymes a lot, doesn't make

him a good doctor. It only makes him a doctor who has treated lymes and

has lost his license because:

" Physician Information

Physician Name: Orens, MD

Address: 241 East Shore Road

Great Neck, New York 11023

License Number: 082198

License Type: MD

Year of Birth: 1927

Effective Date: 04/08/2002

Action: As of April 8, 2002,the June 21, 2001 decision of the New York

State Supreme Court,Appellate Division,Third Department ordering a new

hearing is stayed pending a decision by the New York State Court of

Appeals.The New York State medical license of Orens, M.D. is revoked

in accordance with the November 18, 1999 decision and order of the New York

State Board for Professional Medical Conduct Hearing Committee and the April

13, 2000 decision and order of the Review Board.

Misconduct Description:

The Review Board sustained the November 18,1999

Hearing Committee's penalty and determination finding the physician guilty

of gross negligence; negligence on more than one occasion; practicing

fraudulently; ordering excessive tests and/or treatment and inaccurate

patient records.The Review Board also sustained the charges finding the

physician guilty of gross incompetence and incompetence on more than one

occasion. "

Now, I know that it's a common belief among us Lymies that we are being

shafted, that the system is corrupt, and that any doctor that is actually

being helpful is a target for harassment or worse. I'm not saying that

this is not the case. On the other hand, I have not heard anything about

Dr. Orrens, for instance, that proves anything the other way. This is a

report that actually harms things more than helps them, because there's

nothing to explain Dr. Orrens point of view nd makes it look like if you

treat lymes you are a quack. Seems to me that if you are going to put all

this information about his revocation then you should also make sure you

talk about him otherwise.

I know doctors that treat lymes that are also QUACKS. WIth a very large

capital " Q " . So we need to be careful with this just as much as anything

else. Just because a doctor is willing to treat you and is a " LLMD "

doesn't mean they are a good doctor. There is a doctor on my old insurance

who is actually covered by insurance who treats it, and is someone I no

longer see because I have found him to be very dangerous and irresponsible,

and if you live in the Santa Cruz CA area, I would warn you against him for

a lot of good reasons. One, I've found him to be a drug pusher who is not

responsible, and two, he's put people on drugs that make them psychotic and

then they have psychotic breaks that affect the community, and he won't

respond to their honest pleas to re-evaluate their patient. Even when they

come at kids with butcher knives because of the drugs the doc put them on,

and even when the parents write him " en masse " about their patient's

behavior on an inappropriate drug. So just because they may be willing to

acknowledge that Lymes is an existing problem, doesn't make them a good

doctor. Imagine my surprise when I was told by my contact here in this

area that he was the only LLMD. I have a hard time believing he's

literate, period, let alone someone I would want to touch me with a

ten-foot pole.

So, if I read that " Dr. soandso lost his license " because he treats lymes,

then I'm concerned, but I need to need more to be really upset. There may

be other real reasons that a lot more reasonable, and I hope I see the name

of this doctor I know that I reference above on that list someday, because

he's dangerous... and a quack.

Thanks for listening.

[Guest guest]

I tried it all. there is no response.

That website address, btw, is impossible.

Bright Blessings,

Joy

~~If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests?

[Guest guest]

You will probably have to cut and paste the URLs into your browser. They

are very specific so there is no way to shorten them.

I don't understand what you mean by " no response " .

You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader to read the PDF files. You can download

the free reader at http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html .

=)

Robynn

Re: [ ] Please explain

I tried it all. there is no response.

That website address, btw, is impossible.

Bright Blessings,

Joy

~~If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests?