Re: Powerlifting <> Olympic Lifting?

[Guest guest]

> I'm going to go out on a limb and say I know a thing or two about

> powerlifting, but as for PL success hurting OL training, someone

> please educate me (aside from the bench hurting shoulder ROM which

> I agree with). Why to you believe that PL training hurts OL

> training when the two biggest male american stars crossed over from

> PLing and had relatively little OL training compared to the rest of

> the field?

The fact that two athletes crossed over from PL to OL and were

successful doesn't temper the assertion that in general PL may

negatively affect OL success. There's a very close analogy in the

main sport I coach, Judo. In the case of Judo, generally speaking

prior wrestling experience hinders one's success in Judo, especially

at the higher levels of performance. On the other hand, wrestling

experience after you have formed a good base of Judo is OK. Obviously

there are always exceptions to the rule. Perhaps Mark Henry is one of

them. And perhaps Mark was destined to be an OLer but was sidetracked

by PL!

_____________________________

Gerald Lafon

Director, Judo America San Diego

Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club

http://www.judoamerica.com

858 578-7748

[Guest guest]

Simple basis.

1. PL movements are too slow to have strong carry-over.

2. ROM in the shoulder - as we agreed.

3. During the PL movements as you near completion you slow down -

exactly the opposite of OL. Since the movement pattern is similar you

are creating neural issues.

4. When the press was discontinued there was an immediate jump in the

C & J and snatch world records. If a slow movement that is so similar

was holding back numbers, think of what the bench and deadlift are

doing.

5. Different physiological requirements, in terms of levers and

muscle insertions.

Having said that, the strength mindset of the powerlifter and the

urge to lift big things transfers nicely. There are some great

potential OL's competing at PL. Hammon was the perfect example -

incredibly explosive PL. He had great potential as an OL. But I echo

the Chinese weightlifting coach. In OL the most important things are

speed, closeness (of the bar, by which I assume he meant technique),

accuracy (once again I assume technique is meant here) and flexibility.

Powerlifting training does not develop these. Shane transfered over

and started snatching with a broomstick. It was all he could use -

and he was a 1,000 lb squatter with a high-bar quad dominated squat.

If he had spent his teenage years OL he might have a shot at a world

title. But I don't think he does now.

There are many powerlifters who have the potential to be good OLs.

But what I am saying is - they won't get there by PL type training. I

completely dropped back squats, deadlifts and benches when I switched

myself and it has taken two years to get the necessary shoulder

flexibility to squat snatch.

Of course, now I'm thinking of doing the tactical strength challenge

so I have an excuse to deadlift again.

:^)

> I'm going to go out on a limb and say I know a thing or two about

> powerlifting, but as for PL success hurting OL training, someone

> please educate me (aside from the bench hurting shoulder ROM which

> I agree with). Why to you believe that PL training hurts OL

> training when the two biggest male american stars crossed over from

> PLing and had relatively little OL training compared to the rest of

> the field?

>

> Dave Kirschen

> New York, NY

> =================================

>

> To: Supertraining@...: jpcrete@...: Wed,

> 13 Feb 2008 08:46:04 -0800Subject: RE: Mark Henry -

> Powerlifting to Olympic Lifting?

>

> If you knew enough about both forms of lifting you'dknow it is more

> than just an assumption, but you arecorrect in not buying into the

> " whole slow liftthing. " Jim StorchElmira, NY USA--- david kirschen

> wrote:> Maybe, but OL's two highest profile

> male lifters in> recent years (Henry and Hammon) are both

> converted> PL'ers. Why the assumption that PLing hurt them> instead

> of making them? I don't buy into the whole> slow lift thing either.

> Hammon in particular was> very explosive as a PL'er. Also, check

> out the> westside barbell link at> http://

> www.nationalthrowscoachesassociation.com/> > At about 5 and a half

> minutes in you'll see some> very impressive jumping ability. Keep

> in mind this> guy does no olympic lifting. Many of these guys are>

> very impressive jumpers with zero training in

>

>

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

[Guest guest]

First, I do NOT believe that PL training hurts OL

training (I think some successful weightlifters could

have been more successful and avoided injuries if they

had taken a well timed " break " from OL and did a

little PL (including bench)). And, Shane and Mark's

relative success in OL has had little impact on that.

To help clarify my beliefs regarding this subject here

is a short list of potential difficulties a relatively

successful powerlifter (with no previuos OL

experience) faces if/when attempting OL-

1) the previously addressed shoulder flexibility

issues.

2) OUCH!!!! my ego! (I'm not implying that PLers have

any bigger egos than WLers, but when one is used to

lifting XXX!! number of pounds and has to lift xx

number of pounds it is exceedingly humbling (perhaps,

at times, too much so)).

3) there is a great deal of " interference " from the

nervous system when one attempts to learn a new lift

that is too similar to an ingrained more " automatic "

lift (deadlift v. snatch/clean).

4) another place the nervous system can " interfere " is

in the overhead part of an OL. When an experienced

OLer tightens up, he/she pushes against the bar and

gravity with his/her upper and lowerbody. When a new

to OL PLer tries to tighten up (of course not always,

but often) with the weight over his/her head he/she

tightens his/her strongly developed pecs (people tend

to go with what they know) and pulls the weight

forward out of position (if he/she even had the

flexibility to get into proper position to begin

with). One will feel as though they are fighting

themselves.

Does that help any?

Jim Storch

Elmira, NY USA

--- david kirschen wrote:

> I'm going to go out on a limb and say I know a thing

> or two about powerlifting, but as for PL success

> hurting OL training, someone please educate me

> (aside from the bench hurting shoulder ROM which I

> agree with). Why to you believe that PL training

> hurts OL training when the two biggest male american

> stars crossed over from PLing and had relatively

> little OL training compared to the rest of the

> field?

>

> Dave Kirschen

> New York, NY

> =================================

>

> To: Supertraining@...:

> jpcrete@...: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:46:04

> -0800Subject: RE: Mark Henry -

> Powerlifting to Olympic Lifting?

>

> If you knew enough about both forms of lifting

> you'd know it is more than just an assumption, but

> you are correct in not buying into the " whole slow

> lift thing. " Jim Storch Elmira, NY USA

[Guest guest]

My fellow Judoka has it nearly right. Unfortunately neither Henry or

Hammand were " successful " against the world's best. As documented in

my previous post they were not that successful even when compared to a

pure Weightlifter that weighs 100 lbs less.

It is apparent that those insisting that long term Powelifters can

make an effective, much less easy, transition to Weightlifting and be

competitive at the world/Olympic level are quite naive about the time

and training required to develop elite Weightlifters. It is equally

apparent, in light of the profound level of ignorance displayed in

some of the posts, that being a CSCS doesn't guarantee familiarity

with the complexities of training even a Regional level Weightlifter.

It is note worthy that the only people who have shown understanding of

the fallacy of the conclusion that long term Powerlifters can

transition into Weightlifting and ultimately compete successfully at

the elite level are either Weightlifters or like Sensei Lefon,

Weightlifting coaches.

With the hope of getting some of the less well informed to try

Weightlifting and possibly even coaching it, I have provided some data

that may pique your interest and show you how diverse, complex and

challenging it is to develop Weightlifters. Please note the projected

numbers of years spent in the first two phases described briefly from

Roman.

From the Encyclopedia of Weightlifting

Weightlifting is a sport in which the strongest and most powerful men

and women in the world - bar none (as well as some of the world's

fastest and most flexible men and women) compete. Many people who are

unfamiliar with the sport are surprised to learn that Weightlifters

don't necessarily have the biggest muscles in the world. In fact, some

could easily be mistaken for well conditioned athletes who compete in

other sports. Weightlifters simply have the strongest and most

powerful muscles in the world, developed by hard and very specialized

training that develops enormous strength without the " bulk " that

bodybuilders, like Arnold Schwarzenegger, possess. Bodybuilders are

dedicated athletes and many are quite strong, but they are not as

strong as the best weightlifters and their muscles needn't be strong

because they compete solely on the basis of the appearance of their

muscles, not their strength (muscle size and strength are not highly

correlated).

Now read this link: http://womag1.com/lifting/

FACTORS INFLUENCING THE EFFECT OF EXPLOSIVE FORCE IN SPEED-STRENGTH

ACTIVITIES

Yuri Verkhoshansky

While the factorial composition of speed-strength characteristics for

high performance and elite athletes appeared to be quite clear, the

same cannot be said of athletes in lower performance categories. Our

studies indicated imbalances in the composition and structure of the

capacities that generate explosive force in the first stages of

systematic training. This occurs because of the uneven development of

specific capacities, the absence of a clearcut training system, poor

development sequences, and so on.

It is during the advanced stages of proficiency, when the content of

training becomes clear cut and specific. that the composition and

structure of the capacities responsible for generating explosive force

became clearly distinguished. Consequently, it is important to

emphasize specific physical development as soon as an athlete has

finished the all-around general development stage.

Only a regime that virtually duplicates the speed-strength primary

requirements of an event can provide effective improvement. Most

importantly, it should be kept in mind that the necessary functional

interaction between the specific neuromuscular mechanisms required in

a specific task are decisive. No other regimes or combination of

regimes are an effective substitute.

NEURAL CHANGES WITH TRAINING

Mel Siff

The rapidity of changes produced in the brain by repeated stimuli

means that even short periods of inappropriate patterns of strength

training can be detrimental to sporting performance. The importance of

understanding the complexities of prescribing concurrent and

sequential methods of training in the short and the long term then

becomes obvious. This necessitates a thorough knowledge of the

phenomena such as the delayed training effect, and the conjugate

sequence method.

TIME SEQUENCE OF WEIGHTLIFTING TRAINING

RA Roman and YY Rysin

First Stage

GPP (General Physical Preparation) Raising of the functional

possibilities of the organism and the expansion of the necessary motor

habits and skill

2.5 Years

Second Stage

In-Depth Specialization of the Base

The athlete has mastered technique to perfection...

The main task of the second stage is the expansion of SPP and the

creation of the prerequisites for the achievement of high results.

6.5 Years

Third Stage

Significant reduction in volume and achievement of record results

Other issues relevant to the development of an elite Weightlifter:

CAR Current Adaptive Reserves

GAS General Adaptation Syndrome - Selye

SAID Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands

Note that Roman expects it to take 9 years just to reach the third

stage. Professor Yessis, former editor of the Soviet Sports Review,

will confirm that it was the considered opinion of virtually all the

top Russian and Eastern block coaches that it takes 12-15 years to

develop a national level athlete. This is particularly true of

Weightlifting. Consider the implications of Verkoshanky's and Siff's

previously stated positions and it is apparent that any athlete who

wants to compete at the national level (Olympic team) is not only

wasting valuable time engaging in Powerlifitng but are limiting their

potential to compete at the highest level. Anyone who coaches

Weightlifting and/or has studied Siff, Roman, Zatsiorsky,

Verkoshansky, Medyedyev, Bompa, et al, realizes that there is a great

deal of naivete about Weightlifting and most people have little

understanding that at the national level training and competing in

Weightlifting is both intensely complex and cerebral.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sorts Consultancy

San Diego, CA.

>

> > I'm going to go out on a limb and say I know a thing or two about

> > powerlifting, but as for PL success hurting OL training, someone

> > please educate me (aside from the bench hurting shoulder ROM which

> > I agree with). Why to you believe that PL training hurts OL

> > training when the two biggest male american stars crossed over from

> > PLing and had relatively little OL training compared to the rest of

> > the field?

>

> The fact that two athletes crossed over from PL to OL and were

> successful doesn't temper the assertion that in general PL may

> negatively affect OL success. There's a very close analogy in the

> main sport I coach, Judo. In the case of Judo, generally speaking

> prior wrestling experience hinders one's success in Judo, especially

> at the higher levels of performance. On the other hand, wrestling

> experience after you have formed a good base of Judo is OK. Obviously

> there are always exceptions to the rule. Perhaps Mark Henry is one of

> them. And perhaps Mark was destined to be an OLer but was sidetracked

> by PL!

> _____________________________

> Gerald Lafon

> Director, Judo America San Diego

> Coach, Mira Mesa Weightlifting Club

> http://www.judoamerica.com

> 858 578-7748

>

[Guest guest]

Bill,

There is so much more to say than I'm going to. Read

between.

--- " W.G. 'Bill' "

wrote:

> Jim,

> Have you, since posting this, read my post directly

> quoting

> Verkhoshansky and Siff? Please read carefully.

> Verkhoshansky states:

>

> Only a regime that virtually duplicates the

> speed-strength primary

> requirements of an event can provide effective

> improvement. Most

> importantly, it should be kept in mind that the

> necessary functional

> interaction between the specific neuromuscular

> mechanisms required in

> a specific task are decisive. No other regimes or

> combination of

> regimes are an effective substitute.

>

> That statement alone totally refutes what you

> " believe " . Here is a

> quote from Siff:

>

> The rapidity of changes produced in the brain by

> repeated stimuli

> means that even short periods of inappropriate

> patterns of strength

> training can be detrimental to sporting performance.

I guess the Bulgarians(Abijaev(sp?)) are completely

correct and you better tell Mike Burgener to stop with

the crossfit and wheel barrow pushing (that's not what

I believe, but... perhaps you get the point?).

" ...More than one way to skin a cat "

By the way tell Mike I said hello.

> This statement further refutes your position. Bench

> press is very

> inappropriate for Weightlifters. Are you familiar

> with internal

> rotation of the AC joint and the subsequent adaptive

> shortening of the

> connective tissues? This problem results in a

> serious loss of range of

> motion of the shoulder joint and is directly

> attributable to bench

> pressing. This is known through science, research

> and experience, not

> belief.

Are you saying that even with science, research, and

experience you still do not believe? If science

research and experience mean anything at some point

you need to believe them.

SORRY just playing with the wording, you don't need to

address this unless you REALLY feel the need.

I don't have any problem being a " skeptic " and a

" believer " at the same time.

> This loss of range of motion is

> contraindicated, inappropriate

> and totally detrimental successful participation of

> the athlete,

> (strained, sprained or completely blown out

> shoulders do nothing to

> enhance athletic performance).

I thought Mel said there are no " bad " exercises.

The loss of range of motion is contraindicated,

inapprpriate, and AVOIDABLE even without avoiding the

bench press.

> In a subsequent post addressing this issue, the lack

> of knowledge of

> the intricacies of Weightlifting I wrote:

>

> It is equally apparent, in light of the profound

> level of ignorance

> displayed in some of the posts, that being a CSCS

> doesn't guarantee

> familiarity with the complexities of training even a

> Regional level

> Weightlifter. It is note worthy that the only people

> who have shown

> understanding of the fallacy of the conclusion that

> long term

> Powerlifters can transition into Weightlifting and

> ultimately compete

> successfully at the elite level are either

> Weightlifters or like

> Sensei Lefon, Weightlifting coaches.

>

> Let's stop at the the word Weightlifting in the last

> sentence. All of

> the issues you posit are exactly the reasons very

> few Powerlifters

> ever successfully convert over to Weightlifting. If

> they've been

> Powerlifting long enough to lift big weights, the

> loss of joint

> flexibility in the ankles, hips and shoulders pretty

> much dooms them.

> Test my thesis. See how many Powerlifters can do an

> ATG overhead

> squat. I'll be surprised if you can find even one.

I have actually, more than one, but that is another

story. Regarding overhead squats it seems most people

(in the US) struggle with that, with or without a

powerlifting background (let alone ATG).

> Quoting myself again from another post:

>

> We are supposed to be engaged in a science based

> dialogue to determine

> the most efficacious methods for athlete

> development. There is no

> passion for " a particular style of training " . Only a

> passion for

> optimized training. We're trying to modify the most

> complex thing in

> the universe, the human body. There's no room for

> passion, only

> empirical evidence, science and results.

>

> I read and participate in this forum to learn. Not

> quote myself.

> Beliefs are for religion, not science. Please stick

> to what is

> empirically derived. And this is not aimed at just

> you Jim, what you

> believed intuitively would appear to be reasonable,

> unless you are

> familiar with the science behind Weightlifting.

While making no claims regarding my background I can

safely say that you do not fully grasp it(my

background). Also I think you are making assumptions

about my intuitiveness.

> However, there are

> several posters, with sufficient education to know

> better, putting

> forward a lot of unsubstantiated opinion. We need to

> stick to facts,

> evidence, science.

Without passion performance will be diminished. I

expect that science has proven this already.

I like science and even prefer it, but if I was to

wait for science before I did anything I still

wouldn't even know what the sport of weightlifting is.

Science is like the bench press, just a tool (or

process) to be used.

Yes, I read and participate here for mutual benefit.

> W.G.

> Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

> San Diego, CA.

Jim Storch

Elmira, NY USA

[Guest guest]

Ok the following is to address the apparent inability as stated by a previous

poster with regard to the performance of OH squats by PL athletes (and those who

have competed PL well, then switched to OL competitions) and secondly, the

alleged lack of flexibility in the ankle, shoulder, and hip in competing PL.

With regard to the first item, performance of OH squats by PL and former PL,

Hobman and I can both say we were and are pretty good at powerlifting at

some point in our lifting progressions and have both done OH squat

satisfactorily. is a former world class master lifter in PL and has

competed OL satisfactorily after that. I think were he asked to perform an OH

sq for you, he might do it nicely.

I did mine at a seminar at Mel's house, after snatching the weight, I'm standing

there with the darned 60 kg over head and he ordered me to squat it. I did

successfully. It took Mel all of an hour to teach me, an apparently inept PL,

how to snatch competently and then do that OH squat. I would think with a

sufficiently good teacher, and perhaps this is the point of OL coaches, other PL

might be taught the same nice trick. I also do NOT squat shallow, being

accustomed to the IPF standard of well below break parallel.

One of my former training partners, now lifting in San Fran where he moved to,

also does OH sq to warm up his Back sq. Mel even recommended it, even though

this PL had a big bench....Mel recommended the OH sq to help him focus on his

weight positioning on his back sq!

With regard to the notion that PL are inflexible generally, well....Ever look at

arching PL benchers? this requires a LOT Of flexibility as well as strength to

hold that rainbow AND balance....and I know a guy who weighs 260 and has a HUGE

arch. is he inflexible? uh no, lol. not a chance. Try setting up a real bench

arch. shoulders and bootay kissing the

bench....and you need flexible ankles, shoulders, hips to do this! oh and by

the way, DL overloads do a lot more to my shoulder girdle than bench lol....yet

I can still do some OL moves if it amuses me to do so! I happen to have an

arching bench style myself, at 5'9 " and 220 by the way...

It is clear that some underestimate the true abilities of a good competing PL!

If you think a bench arch does not require great flexibility as well as

strength, try to set up yourself in the same manner sometime! Then realize

people are doing max benches in this position, not to mention the thousands of

reps with good form it takes to achieve a good bench on the platform!

One reason fewer PL might be interested in competing OL after PL? Well, the

weights simply don't SOUND LIKE MUCH after you PL! I mean, look at shane

hamman, right? back squat around 900? OL lifts around what, 500ish? it's

mental. Once you move bigger weights, you're not as amused by moving smaller

ones . WSM is a more likely transition or well, BB if you break down as a PL

<grin>.

Highland Games also takes some good flexibility. I think someone might drop by

and ask Hartnett to do an OH sq and get all he ever wanted? I mean,

also does very well as a PL and a good bencher...and also does nicely at

Highland games events that really test the shoulder girdle!

But then you say, oh 's smaller, 148 lb class, what about bigger people?

are they too inflexible?

Liz Willett was VERY flexible at oh, 5'9 " and 320? I think she'd cheerfully OH

sq a small human to make a point (I wouldn't put it past a very flexible lady

despite her 400 plus pound bench and her 600 plus squat?)!

ita Trujillo, who was quite a good squatter in her time, and long time PL

wold champion from CO, was reported to snuck up on and thrown overhead one of

her friends, despite years of world level competition in PL - one of her

training partners said he weighed nearly 180 and she flipped him overhead and

laughed at him. She was about 5'1 " and oh, 265? She retired from PL because

she got bummed out she couldn't do more than her 523 lb opener lol....after

breaking an arm going over backwards in training! I'm told you had to watch out

cause ita found it quite funny...and did it when you didn't pay attention!

Had this lady cared to OL, nothing would have stopped her from success...!

people are harder to lift than weights!

The insistence that good PL do not have flexibility and other necessary

attributes to train as OL and succeed is wrong in a good many cases! I think if

I had to guess, MOST PL SIMPLY ARE NOT INTERESTED IN COMPETING OL! <grin>. OR

very little would stop them, most are very determined, and some to the point of

training alone in cold drafty garages in the dead of winter...!

If Mel had thought that eventually doing OL comps were a dumb idea for me after

PL, he would have flat out told me. <grin> Hey didn't one of the big Iranian

guys who got banned from IPF for life also compete at the Olympic Games in OL?

lol....

the Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

-------------- Original message --------------

Bill,

There is so much more to say than I'm going to. Read

between.

--- " W.G. 'Bill' "

wrote:

> Jim,

> Have you, since posting this, read my post directly

> quoting

> Verkhoshansky and Siff? Please read carefully.

> Verkhoshansky states:

>

> Only a regime that virtually duplicates the

> speed-strength primary

> requirements of an event can provide effective

> improvement. Most

> importantly, it should be kept in mind that the

> necessary functional

> interaction between the specific neuromuscular

> mechanisms required in

> a specific task are decisive. No other regimes or

> combination of

> regimes are an effective substitute.

>

> That statement alone totally refutes what you

> " believe " . Here is a

> quote from Siff:

>

> The rapidity of changes produced in the brain by

> repeated stimuli

> means that even short periods of inappropriate

> patterns of strength

> training can be detrimental to sporting performance.

I guess the Bulgarians(Abijaev(sp?)) are completely

correct and you better tell Mike Burgener to stop with

the crossfit and wheel barrow pushing (that's not what

I believe, but... perhaps you get the point?).

" ...More than one way to skin a cat "

By the way tell Mike I said hello.

> This statement further refutes your position. Bench

> press is very

> inappropriate for Weightlifters. Are you familiar

> with internal

> rotation of the AC joint and the subsequent adaptive

> shortening of the

> connective tissues? This problem results in a

> serious loss of range of

> motion of the shoulder joint and is directly

> attributable to bench

> pressing. This is known through science, research

> and experience, not

> belief.

Are you saying that even with science, research, and

experience you still do not believe? If science

research and experience mean anything at some point

you need to believe them.

SORRY just playing with the wording, you don't need to

address this unless you REALLY feel the need.

I don't have any problem being a " skeptic " and a

" believer " at the same time.

> This loss of range of motion is

> contraindicated, inappropriate

> and totally detrimental successful participation of

> the athlete,

> (strained, sprained or completely blown out

> shoulders do nothing to

> enhance athletic performance).

I thought Mel said there are no " bad " exercises.

The loss of range of motion is contraindicated,

inapprpriate, and AVOIDABLE even without avoiding the

bench press.

> In a subsequent post addressing this issue, the lack

> of knowledge of

> the intricacies of Weightlifting I wrote:

>

> It is equally apparent, in light of the profound

> level of ignorance

> displayed in some of the posts, that being a CSCS

> doesn't guarantee

> familiarity with the complexities of training even a

> Regional level

> Weightlifter. It is note worthy that the only people

> who have shown

> understanding of the fallacy of the conclusion that

> long term

> Powerlifters can transition into Weightlifting and

> ultimately compete

> successfully at the elite level are either

> Weightlifters or like

> Sensei Lefon, Weightlifting coaches.

>

> Let's stop at the the word Weightlifting in the last

> sentence. All of

> the issues you posit are exactly the reasons very

> few Powerlifters

> ever successfully convert over to Weightlifting. If

> they've been

> Powerlifting long enough to lift big weights, the

> loss of joint

> flexibility in the ankles, hips and shoulders pretty

> much dooms them.

> Test my thesis. See how many Powerlifters can do an

> ATG overhead

> squat. I'll be surprised if you can find even one.

I have actually, more than one, but that is another

story. Regarding overhead squats it seems most people

(in the US) struggle with that, with or without a

powerlifting background (let alone ATG).

> Quoting myself again from another post:

>

> We are supposed to be engaged in a science based

> dialogue to determine

> the most efficacious methods for athlete

> development. There is no

> passion for " a particular style of training " . Only a

> passion for

> optimized training. We're trying to modify the most

> complex thing in

> the universe, the human body. There's no room for

> passion, only

> empirical evidence, science and results.

>

> I read and participate in this forum to learn. Not

> quote myself.

> Beliefs are for religion, not science. Please stick

> to what is

> empirically derived. And this is not aimed at just

> you Jim, what you

> believed intuitively would appear to be reasonable,

> unless you are

> familiar with the science behind Weightlifting.

While making no claims regarding my background I can

safely say that you do not fully grasp it(my

background). Also I think you are making assumptions

about my intuitiveness.

> However, there are

> several posters, with sufficient education to know

> better, putting

> forward a lot of unsubstantiated opinion. We need to

> stick to facts,

> evidence, science.

Without passion performance will be diminished. I

expect that science has proven this already.

I like science and even prefer it, but if I was to

wait for science before I did anything I still

wouldn't even know what the sport of weightlifting is.

Science is like the bench press, just a tool (or

process) to be used.

Yes, I read and participate here for mutual benefit.

> W.G.

> Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

> San Diego, CA.

=================================

[Guest guest]

Jim,

I'd like to respond more fully but I don't some of your points. There

are couple of points that I think I get so I'll respond to them:

1. Mike Burgener's involvement with Crossfit:

A. That's entirely separate and irrelevant to the issue of trying to

combine Powerlifting training and Weightlifting training or convert

Powerlifters to Weightlifting.

B. Crossfit pays Mike a lot of money to teach their Weightlifting

certification. Crossfit training co opts a variety of training

modalities in to one big program focused on strenght and muscular

endurance. Crossfit has nothing to with training pure Weightlifters.

2. Wheelbarrow training:

A. Pushing a wheelbarrow up and down the driveway in front of Mike's

house has been a routine part of his training program for many years,

and is quite sport specific for Weightlifting.

B. If you don't understand how wheelbarrow training is specific to

Weightlifting, contact Mike, he'll explain it to you, and you can say

" Hello " yourself.

3. Incompatibility of PL and OL: I posted direct quotes from Roman,

Verkhoshansky and Siff. If you fully understood the concepts they're

talking about, this discussion would never have taken place.

Apparently, you still don't, so this discussion is over.

4. Belief: I was referring to unsubstantiated beliefs. I thought that

fairly obvious.

5. Your use of Mel's " No bad exercises " indicates you still don't get

this quote from Professor Siff:

" ...even short periods of inappropriate patterns of strength

training can be detrimental to sporting performance. " Bench press is

inappropriate for Weightlifting. If you still don't understand that,

please see #3.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA

> >

> > It is equally apparent, in light of the profound

> > level of ignorance

> > displayed in some of the posts, that being a CSCS

> > doesn't guarantee

> > familiarity with the complexities of training even a

> > Regional level

> > Weightlifter. It is note worthy that the only people

> > who have shown

> > understanding of the fallacy of the conclusion that

> > long term

> > Powerlifters can transition into Weightlifting and

> > ultimately compete

> > successfully at the elite level are either

> > Weightlifters or like

> > Sensei Lefon, Weightlifting coaches.

> >

> > Let's stop at the the word Weightlifting in the last

> > sentence. All of

> > the issues you posit are exactly the reasons very

> > few Powerlifters

> > ever successfully convert over to Weightlifting. If

> > they've been

> > Powerlifting long enough to lift big weights, the

> > loss of joint

> > flexibility in the ankles, hips and shoulders pretty

> > much dooms them.

> > Test my thesis. See how many Powerlifters can do an

> > ATG overhead

> > squat. I'll be surprised if you can find even one.

>

>

> I have actually, more than one, but that is another

> story. Regarding overhead squats it seems most people

> (in the US) struggle with that, with or without a

> powerlifting background (let alone ATG).

>

>

>

> > Quoting myself again from another post:

> >

> > We are supposed to be engaged in a science based

> > dialogue to determine

> > the most efficacious methods for athlete

> > development. There is no

> > passion for " a particular style of training " . Only a

> > passion for

> > optimized training. We're trying to modify the most

> > complex thing in

> > the universe, the human body. There's no room for

> > passion, only

> > empirical evidence, science and results.

> >

> > I read and participate in this forum to learn. Not

> > quote myself.

> > Beliefs are for religion, not science. Please stick

> > to what is

> > empirically derived. And this is not aimed at just

> > you Jim, what you

> > believed intuitively would appear to be reasonable,

> > unless you are

> > familiar with the science behind Weightlifting.

>

>

> While making no claims regarding my background I can

> safely say that you do not fully grasp it(my

> background). Also I think you are making assumptions

> about my intuitiveness.

>

>

> > However, there are

> > several posters, with sufficient education to know

> > better, putting

> > forward a lot of unsubstantiated opinion. We need to

> > stick to facts,

> > evidence, science.

>

>

> Without passion performance will be diminished. I

> expect that science has proven this already.

>

> I like science and even prefer it, but if I was to

> wait for science before I did anything I still

> wouldn't even know what the sport of weightlifting is.

>

> Science is like the bench press, just a tool (or

> process) to be used.

>

> Yes, I read and participate here for mutual benefit.

>

>

> > W.G.

> > Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

> > San Diego, CA.

>

> Jim Storch

> Elmira, NY USA

>

[Guest guest]

No offense , but using the insane arch in the back of a bencher as proof

that PL are as flexible as OL is not a very good argument. Can some PL become

good WL, absolutely. As someone who's done both I will state that IMO PL does

not really help you be a good WL. Sure you build a good strength base, but you

lose alot of time that could have been spent building the power, speed, and

flexibility needed for WL. The speed and flexiblity of elite WL's compared to

elite PL's shows the dramatic differences in the two lifting sports. It's not

uncommon to find 105kg WL who can run sub 11 second 100 meters or have vertical

leaping abilities of 29-33 inches. All this while maintaning very good

flexibility throughout the whole body.

Garrison

Mesa Community College

Mesa, AZ

To: Supertraining@...: deadliftdiva@...: Tue, 19 Feb

2008 18:44:05 +0000Subject: Re: Powerlifting <> Olympic Lifting?

Ok the following is to address the apparent inability as stated by a previous

poster with regard to the performance of OH squats by PL athletes (and those who

have competed PL well, then switched to OL competitions) and secondly, the

alleged lack of flexibility in the ankle, shoulder, and hip in competing PL.

With regard to the first item, performance of OH squats by PL and former PL,

Hobman and I can both say we were and are pretty good at powerlifting at

some point in our lifting progressions and have both done OH squat

satisfactorily. is a former world class master lifter in PL and has

competed OL satisfactorily after that. I think were he asked to perform an OH sq

for you, he might do it nicely.I did mine at a seminar at Mel's house, after

snatching the weight, I'm standing there with the darned 60 kg over head and he

ordered me to squat it. I did successfully. It took Mel all of an hour to teach

me, an apparently inept PL, how to snatch competently and then do that OH squat.

I would think with a sufficiently good teacher, and perhaps this is the point of

OL coaches, other PL might be taught the same nice trick. I also do NOT squat

shallow, being accustomed to the IPF standard of well below break parallel.One

of my former training partners, now lifting in San Fran where he moved to, also

does OH sq to warm up his Back sq. Mel even recommended it, even though this PL

had a big bench....Mel recommended the OH sq to help him focus on his weight

positioning on his back sq!With regard to the notion that PL are inflexible

generally, well....Ever look at arching PL benchers? this requires a LOT Of

flexibility as well as strength to hold that rainbow AND balance....and I know a

guy who weighs 260 and has a HUGE arch. is he inflexible? uh no, lol. not a

chance. Try setting up a real bench arch. shoulders and bootay kissing

thebench....and you need flexible ankles, shoulders, hips to do this! oh and

bythe way, DL overloads do a lot more to my shoulder girdle than bench

lol....yetI can still do some OL moves if it amuses me to do so! I happen to

have an arching bench style myself, at 5'9 " and 220 by the way...It is clear

that some underestimate the true abilities of a good competing PL! If you think

a bench arch does not require great flexibility as well as strength, try to set

up yourself in the same manner sometime! Then realize people are doing max

benches in this position, not to mention the thousands of reps with good form it

takes to achieve a good bench on the platform!One reason fewer PL might be

interested in competing OL after PL? Well, the weights simply don't SOUND LIKE

MUCH after you PL! I mean, look at shane hamman, right? back squat around 900?

OL lifts around what, 500ish? it's mental. Once you move bigger weights, you're

not as amused by moving smaller ones . WSM is a more likely transition or

well, BB if you break down as a PL <grin>.Highland Games also takes some good

flexibility. I think someone might drop by and ask Hartnett to do an OH

sq and get all he ever wanted? I mean, also does very well as a PL and a

good bencher...and also does nicely at Highland games events that really test

the shoulder girdle! But then you say, oh 's smaller, 148 lb class, what

about bigger people? are they too inflexible?Liz Willett was VERY flexible at

oh, 5'9 " and 320? I think she'd cheerfully OH sq a small human to make a point

(I wouldn't put it past a very flexible lady despite her 400 plus pound bench

and her 600 plus squat?)! ita Trujillo, who was quite a good squatter in her

time, and long time PL wold champion from CO, was reported to snuck up on and

thrown overhead one of her friends, despite years of world level competition in

PL - one of her training partners said he weighed nearly 180 and she flipped him

overhead and laughed at him. She was about 5'1 " and oh, 265? She retired from PL

because she got bummed out she couldn't do more than her 523 lb opener

lol....after breaking an arm going over backwards in training! I'm told you had

to watch out cause ita found it quite funny...and did it when you didn't pay

attention! Had this lady cared to OL, nothing would have stopped her from

success...! people are harder to lift than weights!The insistence that good PL

do not have flexibility and other necessary attributes to train as OL and

succeed is wrong in a good many cases! I think if I had to guess, MOST PL SIMPLY

ARE NOT INTERESTED IN COMPETING OL! <grin>. OR very little would stop them, most

are very determined, and some to the point of training alone in cold drafty

garages in the dead of winter...!If Mel had thought that eventually doing OL

comps were a dumb idea for me afterPL, he would have flat out told me. <grin>

Hey didn't one of the big Iranianguys who got banned from IPF for life also

compete at the Olympic Games in OL?lol....the Phantomaka Schaefer, CMT,

CSCS, competing powerlifterDenver, Colorado, USA-------------- Original message

-------------- Bill,There is so much more

to say than I'm going to. Readbetween.--- " W.G. 'Bill' "

wrote:> Jim,> Have you, since posting this, read my

post directly> quoting> Verkhoshansky and Siff? Please read carefully.>

Verkhoshansky states:> > Only a regime that virtually duplicates the>

speed-strength primary> requirements of an event can provide effective>

improvement. Most> importantly, it should be kept in mind that the> necessary

functional> interaction between the specific neuromuscular> mechanisms required

in> a specific task are decisive. No other regimes or> combination of> regimes

are an effective substitute.> > That statement alone totally refutes what you>

" believe " . Here is a> quote from Siff: > > The rapidity of changes produced in

the brain by> repeated stimuli> means that even short periods of inappropriate>

patterns of strength> training can be detrimental to sporting performance.I

guess the Bulgarians(Abijaev(sp?)) are completelycorrect and you better tell

Mike Burgener to stop withthe crossfit and wheel barrow pushing (that's not

whatI believe, but... perhaps you get the point?). " ...More than one way to skin

a cat " By the way tell Mike I said hello.> This statement further refutes your

position. Bench> press is very> inappropriate for Weightlifters. Are you

familiar> with internal> rotation of the AC joint and the subsequent adaptive>

shortening of the> connective tissues? This problem results in a> serious loss

of range of> motion of the shoulder joint and is directly> attributable to

bench> pressing. This is known through science, research> and experience, not>

belief.Are you saying that even with science, research, andexperience you still

do not believe? If scienceresearch and experience mean anything at some pointyou

need to believe them. SORRY just playing with the wording, you don't need

toaddress this unless you REALLY feel the need.I don't have any problem being a

" skeptic " and a " believer " at the same time.> This loss of range of motion is>

contraindicated, inappropriate> and totally detrimental successful participation

of> the athlete,> (strained, sprained or completely blown out> shoulders do

nothing to> enhance athletic performance). I thought Mel said there are no " bad "

exercises.The loss of range of motion is contraindicated,inapprpriate, and

AVOIDABLE even without avoiding thebench press.> In a subsequent post addressing

this issue, the lack> of knowledge of> the intricacies of Weightlifting I

wrote:> > It is equally apparent, in light of the profound> level of ignorance>

displayed in some of the posts, that being a CSCS> doesn't guarantee>

familiarity with the complexities of training even a> Regional level>

Weightlifter. It is note worthy that the only people> who have shown>

understanding of the fallacy of the conclusion that> long term> Powerlifters can

transition into Weightlifting and> ultimately compete> successfully at the elite

level are either> Weightlifters or like> Sensei Lefon, Weightlifting coaches.> >

Let's stop at the the word Weightlifting in the last> sentence. All of> the

issues you posit are exactly the reasons very> few Powerlifters> ever

successfully convert over to Weightlifting. If> they've been> Powerlifting long

enough to lift big weights, the> loss of joint> flexibility in the ankles, hips

and shoulders pretty> much dooms them.> Test my thesis. See how many

Powerlifters can do an> ATG overhead> squat. I'll be surprised if you can find

even one.I have actually, more than one, but that is anotherstory. Regarding

overhead squats it seems most people(in the US) struggle with that, with or

without apowerlifting background (let alone ATG).> Quoting myself again from

another post:> > We are supposed to be engaged in a science based> dialogue to

determine> the most efficacious methods for athlete> development. There is no>

passion for " a particular style of training " . Only a> passion for> optimized

training. We're trying to modify the most> complex thing in> the universe, the

human body. There's no room for> passion, only> empirical evidence, science and

results. > > I read and participate in this forum to learn. Not> quote myself.>

Beliefs are for religion, not science. Please stick> to what is> empirically

derived. And this is not aimed at just> you Jim, what you> believed intuitively

would appear to be reasonable,> unless you are> familiar with the science behind

Weightlifting.While making no claims regarding my background I cansafely say

that you do not fully grasp it(mybackground). Also I think you are making

assumptionsabout my intuitiveness.> However, there are> several posters, with

sufficient education to know> better, putting> forward a lot of unsubstantiated

opinion. We need to> stick to facts,> evidence, science. Without passion

performance will be diminished. Iexpect that science has proven this already.I

like science and even prefer it, but if I was towait for science before I did

anything I stillwouldn't even know what the sport of weightlifting is.Science is

like the bench press, just a tool (orprocess) to be used.Yes, I read and

participate here for mutual benefit.> W.G. > Ubermensch Sports

Consultancy> San Diego, CA.=================================

[Guest guest]

No offense taken, , and I greatly appreciate your perspective and input.

The original argument was that PL could NOT do OL properly due to some purported

lack of flexibility in the joints that was due to being powerlifters lol. I

don't think that's the case, and the fact you have done both sports would also

bear that truth forward? Several at present on this list have done sufficient

effort in both sports. The bench arch cited is similar also to a wrestling

bridge in some ways, would people argue wrestlers to be inflexible? I think not!

Again, I believe people mistakenly hold to an image of long ago dinosaur

powerlifters, who are completely inflexible and quite out of shape! Most of the

lower weight classes simply are not so out of shape or inflexible. the thinking

that powerlifters are not generally good athletes continues to be out there?

The flexibility and strength to do well at PL clearly didn't fail Shane Hamman

in turning OL? One of Mel's old postings in the archives suggests that getting

to a below parallel, or toward ATG squats, requires and demonstrates a great

deal of flexibility? To argue PL as a whole as inflexible in the joints

required to also squat, that seems a bit of an inconsistency as well. One might

argue that being able to perform a proper back squat demonstrates a good deal of

balance, agility, and trainable proprioception.

An interesting thought would be to look then for volleyball players, who have

arguably good vertical leaps, smaller NBA players, who have generally good

verticals and good speed? The notion one would be wasting time in PL vs OL,

well, if you took someone in the NBA who had a great vertical, and great speed

as described...and asked them to go OL? They possess good coordination too,

right?

You would also expect them to be quite coachable, vs a possibly stubborn PL?

<grin>.

Yet an NBA player could be argued to be wasting his time doing OL...<grin> for

the very reason that he's making money as an NBA player, despite the ability to

possibly represent USA as an OL competitor. the same might be said of a

talented NFL wide receiver, again, possessed of great speed, agility, and

vertical leap?

I still believe a good many PL could be quite decent OL competitors, it is

merely the fact they don't WANT to try it. very little appears to stop a truly

determined strength athlete.

Apparently also the other factor that was cited, the supposed inability to

perform proper heavy overhead lifts after years of the bench press in

competition? Where then does WSM get the majority of their premier male

athletes? Powerlifting. What have they been doing for awhile before going WSM?

Oh, bench press, along with sq and dl. What are they asked to do, under 100

degree F heat in China? Log clean and press, for reps, with a lot of weight...

<grin>. The success of such efforts after years of powerlifting would also

suggest these guys aren't wrecking their shoulders doing the PL bench press?

Smaller elite PL may well be able to demonstrate some good vertical leap, as

well as exceptional flexibility coupled with strength for their size. One good

question that remains though is why OL fails to draw such possibly gifted OL

prospects despite the addition of women's competitions in the Olympic Games and

more opportunity and organization among the coaches in such sport effort in the

United States in particular? Why then is powerlifting, despite a lack of a

track to the Olympic Games picked instead by such potential prospects. I still

think that if some of the better PL truly wanted to OL, they simply would. With

the addition of strongman and the bb pageants, where money is more available and

the competition and support more available over time, it's unlikely that a lot

of PL will test the waters by trying OL. But someone like Shane Hamman clearly

is succeeding, and he was hardly a failure at his PL efforts before.

Powerlifting may not be a perfect segue into Olympic Weightlifting, but I do not

agree that it hampers the effort nor precludes success in competition of OL as

well as PL.

Schaefer

Denver, Colorado, USA

==========================================

-------------- Original message --------------

No offense , but using the insane arch in the back of a bencher as proof

that PL are as flexible as OL is not a very good argument. Can some PL become

good WL, absolutely. As someone who's done both I will state that IMO PL does

not really help you be a good WL. Sure you build a good strength base, but you

lose alot of time that could have been spent building the power, speed, and

flexibility needed for WL. The speed and flexiblity of elite WL's compared to

elite PL's shows the dramatic differences in the two lifting sports. It's not

uncommon to find 105kg WL who can run sub 11 second 100 meters or have vertical

leaping abilities of 29-33 inches. All this while maintaning very good

flexibility throughout the whole body.

Garrison

Mesa Community College

Mesa, AZ

=====================================

[Guest guest]

I'm almost afraid to post on this with some of the posts I've read, not really,

I'm an old Marine and Cop so not much scares me. No science here just my own

experience. I started out as an Olympic lifter at the age of 14. I was a

Missouri State Champion by age 16 and feel pretty good about my chances of one

day being a lot more. I think my Olympic lifting back ground directly was

responsible for my better than average dead lift from day one in power lifting.

Over the years I still have done the Olympic lifts just for something different

and I felt they helped my explosiveness (such as it is). I must say that as the

years of power lifting progressed I became less and less flexible in the areas

needed (especially shoulders) for the Olympic lifts. This despite my long

career in karate, judo, jujitsu, and the other fighting arts that require a

certain amount of flexibility. I also pretty religiously practice dynamic

stretching, yoga, and pilates. Most Olympic lifters I know and I do still keep

up with it pretty well would argue that the key for anyone being productive in

Olympic lifting is having a good coach. talked about Mel being able to

correct her OH squat in a very short period.

My point is that from my point of view power lifting has robbed me of the

flexibility I need for Olympic lifting. Having said that I would not go back to

Olympic Lifting because I never had the passion for it that I do for power

lifting nor did I build the power from it that I have from power lifting. I

trully believe that for me there was carry over from Olympic lifting to Power

lifting but I doubt the inverse would be true. Still strong is strong and I

feel pretty confident that give me 6 months to train with a good coach and I

could compete on a National level in Olympic lifting. I throw this out just as

an individual example only and we all know there are many individual

differences.

I guess I can't really get what all the fuss on this topic is about and some of

it is a little personal. Let's not forget that Mel brought us all together to

share opinions and thoughts as well as scientific information to arrive at the

best conclusions we can. I think there are a lot of people that don't post on

this list because they think their thoughts are not needed or wanted but the

opposite is true. We need to get back to that and spirited debates over

relevant topics with the idea of promoting knowledge and good training

philosophies. At least that's my take but then I could be wrong.

Eddie White

Blue Springs, Mo.

[Guest guest]

Agreed, and I don't believe that anyone on this board believes to the contrary.

My origional point (and one that was never truly addressed) was that Hammon and

Henry's WL careers were stunted by their lack of training and experience

relative to the field, not by PLing.

Dave Kirschen

New York, NY

==============================

To: supertraining@...: pmg68@...: Thu, 21 Feb 2008

17:06:20 -0700Subject: Re: Powerlifting <> Olympic Lifting?

IMO, the best way to prepare for a good WL career is to do WL, and the best way

to prepare for a good PL career is to PL. Both have merits as a sport, but using

one as a base for the other is not optimal. GarrisonMesa Community

CollegeMesa, AZ===============================To:

Supertraining@...: EWHITE@...: Thu, 21 Feb 2008

14:31:06 -0600Subject: Re: Powerlifting <> Olympic Lifting?I'm

almost afraid to post on this with some of the posts I've read, not really, I'm

an old Marine and Cop so not much scares me. No science here just my own

experience. I started out as an Olympic lifter at the age of 14. I was a

Missouri State Champion by age 16 and feel pretty good about my chances of one

day being a lot more. I think my Olympic lifting back ground directly was

responsible for my better than average dead lift from day one in power lifting.

Over the years I still have done the Olympic lifts just for something different

and I felt they helped my explosiveness (such as it is). I must say that as the

years of power lifting progressed I became less and less flexible in the areas

needed (especially shoulders) for the Olympic lifts. This despite my long career

in karate, judo, jujitsu, and the other fighting arts that require a certain

amount of flexibility. I also pretty religiously practice dynamic stretching,

yoga, and pilates. Most Olympic lifters I know and I do still keep up with it

pretty well would argue that the key for anyone being productive in Olympic

lifting is having a good coach. talked about Mel being able to correct her

OH squat in a very short period.My point is that from my point of view power

lifting has robbed me of the flexibility I need for Olympic lifting. Having said

that I would not go back to Olympic Lifting because I never had the passion for

it that I do for power lifting nor did I build the power from it that I have

from power lifting. I trully believe that for me there was carry over from

Olympic lifting to Power lifting but I doubt the inverse would be true. Still

strong is strong and I feel pretty confident that give me 6 months to train with

a good coach and I could compete on a National level in Olympic lifting. I throw

this out just as an individual example only and we all know there are many

individual differences.I guess I can't really get what all the fuss on this

topic is about and some of it is a little personal. Let's not forget that Mel

brought us all together to share opinions and thoughts as well as scientific

information to arrive at the best conclusions we can. I think there are a lot of

people that don't post on this list because they think their thoughts are not

needed or wanted but the opposite is true. We need to get back to that and

spirited debates over relevant topics with the idea of promoting knowledge and

good training philosophies. At least that's my take but then I could be

wrong.Eddie WhiteBlue Springs, Mo. ===========================

[Guest guest]

A little late to this post but just adding some personal experience.

mentioned Highland games which I have competed in for 10 years. I have competed

against several power lifters who did horrible in the Highland games because

they were not very good athletes just very strong. I only met one power lifter

who did well in the Highland games but he also competed in other sports. I think

it all depends on the individual, and I know with take exception to this,

but most power lifters I know are not very athletic and don't do well in other

sports.

Bill

Havertown, Pa

========================================

Hobman wrote:

Having said (below), I also am of the opinion that there are more

effective training programs to prepare for olympic lifting than

powerlifting. Highland games are a good example. Any of the field events

in track and field. Gymnastics (albeit for the lighter lifters).

Powerlifting training is definately evolving and it's better than ever,

but I would argue that the more exposive events I cited are more

appropriate.

Hobman wrote:

> I agree that PL training is better than no training - absolutely. I

> think the key point is that powerlifting is about strength more than any

> other characteristic. And if I were to evaluate OL, strength isn't near

> as important as power or rate of force development.

>

> But an excellent post. BTW - I'm a former PL trying to be an olympic

> lifter at age 50. It ain't easy!

>

> :^)

>

> david kirschen wrote:

>

> > Yes, it does help, and we agree on a lot here, My point was never that

> > you are better off doing PL than OL if you want to be a good O-lifter,

> > anymore than a basketball player would want to focus on football. My

> > arguement was with some of the posts that look at Pling as having

> > stunted the careers of Mark and Shane rather than setting them up with

> > a base of strength to build on. Had they started OL as early as the

> > Eastern Bloc athletes with the same level of coaching, they no doubt

> > would have gone further, but the fact is they didn't. They were hurt

> > by their late starts and lack of experience, not PLing. I really got

> > the sense from some of the posts that they would have been better off

> > doing nothing till their late teens, rather than train in a different

> > strength sport.

> >

> > As for nervous system interference in learning similar lifts, systems

> > like westside are based on mastering special exercise other than the

> > competition lifts. Why wouldn't it also work for the overhead lifts?

> > Plenty of strength athletes from all diciplines move on to have

> > success as strongmen. How is this different?

> >

> > Lastly, the point was made that they are only two examples of

> > crossover PLers having any success. Maybe so, but they are also the

> > two best (male) supers we've produced in a long time. This doesn't

> > count for anything?

> >

> > Once again, I agree that a Pler converting to OL will have their work

> > cut out for them, and that PLing success does not automatically mean

> > success in the OL. But I still have a feeling in absence of OL

> > training, an athlete is better off PLing than not.

> >

> > Dave Kirschen

> > New York, NY

> >

[Guest guest]

I'd agree with that. My personal experience is much the same.

Powerlifters are strong, but rarely good athletes. There are some

notable exceptions to this tho...

Bill wrote:

> A little late to this post but just adding some personal experience.

> mentioned Highland games which I have competed in for 10 years.

> I have competed against several power lifters who did horrible in the

> Highland games because they were not very good athletes just very

> strong. I only met one power lifter who did well in the Highland games

> but he also competed in other sports. I think it all depends on the

> individual, and I know with take exception to this, but most

> power lifters I know are not very athletic and don't do well in other

> sports.

>

> Bill

> Havertown, Pa

>

> ========================================

>

> Hobman <kshobman@... <mailto:kshobman%40sasktel.net>>

> wrote:

> Having said (below), I also am of the opinion that there are more

> effective training programs to prepare for olympic lifting than

> powerlifting. Highland games are a good example. Any of the field events

> in track and field. Gymnastics (albeit for the lighter lifters).

> Powerlifting training is definately evolving and it's better than ever,

> but I would argue that the more exposive events I cited are more

> appropriate.

>

> Hobman wrote:

>

> > I agree that PL training is better than no training - absolutely. I

> > think the key point is that powerlifting is about strength more than any

> > other characteristic. And if I were to evaluate OL, strength isn't near

> > as important as power or rate of force development.

> >

> > But an excellent post. BTW - I'm a former PL trying to be an olympic

> > lifter at age 50. It ain't easy!

> >

> > :^)

> >

> > david kirschen wrote:

> >

> > > Yes, it does help, and we agree on a lot here, My point was never that

> > > you are better off doing PL than OL if you want to be a good O-lifter,

> > > anymore than a basketball player would want to focus on football. My

> > > arguement was with some of the posts that look at Pling as having

> > > stunted the careers of Mark and Shane rather than setting them up with

> > > a base of strength to build on. Had they started OL as early as the

> > > Eastern Bloc athletes with the same level of coaching, they no doubt

> > > would have gone further, but the fact is they didn't. They were hurt

> > > by their late starts and lack of experience, not PLing. I really got

> > > the sense from some of the posts that they would have been better off

> > > doing nothing till their late teens, rather than train in a different

> > > strength sport.

> > >

> > > As for nervous system interference in learning similar lifts, systems

> > > like westside are based on mastering special exercise other than the

> > > competition lifts. Why wouldn't it also work for the overhead lifts?

> > > Plenty of strength athletes from all diciplines move on to have

> > > success as strongmen. How is this different?

> > >

> > > Lastly, the point was made that they are only two examples of

> > > crossover PLers having any success. Maybe so, but they are also the

> > > two best (male) supers we've produced in a long time. This doesn't

> > > count for anything?

> > >

> > > Once again, I agree that a Pler converting to OL will have their work

> > > cut out for them, and that PLing success does not automatically mean

> > > success in the OL. But I still have a feeling in absence of OL

> > > training, an athlete is better off PLing than not.

> > >

> > > Dave Kirschen

> > > New York, NY

> > >

>

>

--

Hobman

Saskatoon, CANADA

[Guest guest]

Dave,

Apparently you missed this post:

This article should provide the necessary insight as to why long term

Powerlifters will always have an extremely difficult time

transitioning to Weightlifting and are unlikely to ever be able to

compete at the elite level. Please note the direct references to Henry

and Hammand and their totals compared to numerous other heavy weights.

From the Russian Weightlifting Library

Concerning the " Russian Squat Routine "

Charniga, Jr.

I have published my translation of the article " Methods of Developing

leg Strength " at this time, for a couple of reasons. First, to allow

anyone unfamiliar with the origin of this program to see that it was

not designed for Powerlifting or the brainchild of any " Doctor of

Squatting " . Second, to raise the question as to whether this type of

specialized training for the legs is necessary for weightlifting training.

It is obvious from the contents of this article that it is designed

for Olympic weightlifters. The author recommends this program if one's

squat results are below what is considered the norm; and, it is to be

applied for a specific period of training - the preparatory period.

The main characteristic of this program which clearly distinguishes it

from powerlifting is that unlike Olympic lifting training, the legs

are not even involved in one lift (the bench press) and only for a

short range of motion in the other (the deadlift). Conversely, legs

are heavily involved in the lifting in both the snatch and the clean

and jerk. So, any specialized loading for the legs in Olympic lifting

has to take into consideration the overall loading on the legs from

the other exercises and the potential negative effect the hard leg

work from squatting would have on the performance of the main

exercises (the snatch and the clean and jerk).

Is a specialized squat routine necessary for Olympic lifters?

Training the squat is going to have the greatest effect on the

recovery phase of both the snatch and the clean. Since the weight in

the snatch is usually about 80% of the clean, the lifter's leg

strength in this segment is usually more than sufficient to complete

the recovery. So, it is in the clean, where the lifter has to stand

with a very heavy weight, that the leg strength that is developed by

squatting is critical.

Therefore, it is a logical assumption that if one has difficulty

recovering from the clean, more squatting is needed. The attraction of

this particular Russian program to the western mind is that, one, it

appears to address the issue of a difficult recovery in the clean;

two, it conforms to the western notion of gradual change (in this case

improvement in strength) will be the inevitable result of a uniform,

gradual and progressive increase in the training load over a specific

time frame.

The basic idea behind this type of program is that each increase in

the number of repetitions per set (from 6 sets of 2 to six sets of

six) is appropriate; the body is ready and needs this increase in

order for the muscles to respond. The notion that the body's response

to training may take the form of a " Punctuated Equilibrium " is not

even considered.

Two reasons come to mind one should fore go employing this " routine " :

1. Squats alone do not address the technique of the clean.

Technique has a significant effect on the bio - mechanical efficiency

of the clean and consequently the effort required of the recovery phase.

2. The legs generate the most productive power in weightlifting (or

for that matter in most of athletics) over a relatively small range of

motion at the knee, hip and ankle joints. The hamstring muscles

(within that relatively small range of motion at the knee, ankle and

hip, where the lifter generates the greatest forces on the barbell)

are not strengthened by squatting.

With respect to the first reason, squatting and the technique of the

clean, consider the following examples of three outstanding squatters.

The author witnessed the Soviet superheavyweight Aslanbek Yenaldiev

pinned with a 240 kg clean at the 1979 Spartakiade. He tried bouncing

6 - 8 times but was physically unable to recover form the squat. He

was the " champion squatter " among the soviet lifters with a 455 kg

back squat (23).

According to Leonid Taranenko (11), his best front squat was 300 kgs

for 3 repetitions. Yet, in exactly the same manner as Yenaldiev, the

author witnessed Taranenko pinned with 250 kgs at the 1983 Soviet

Spartakiade. It is does not make sense that a lifter would be unable

to stand with a weight 50 kgs below his personal best in the front squat.

Krastev (13), had a best front squat of 310 kgs, yet he was

unable to rise with successive 255 kgs and 257.5 kg cleans at the 1987

World's Championships.

Now, consider the results of two of the world's great lifters in the

clean and jerk: Vasily eev and Anatoli Pisarenko.

According to eev (1,2, 21) he did not attempt to lift very large

weights in the squat. Indeed, eev uses the following example to

show that results in weightlifting are not dependent on high results

in the squat. " Look, a lot of guys train incorrectly. They end up

doing a lot of work for nothing. For example, Falyev is a 110 kg

lifter on the national team, who squats with 320 kgs. I have never

used more than 270 kgs. This is a difference of 50 kgs in our

respective training weights. He clean and jerks 220 kgs and I do 256

kgs. So, results in the classic exercises are not determined by the

strength of the legs " (21).

When the author asked Leonid Taranenko about eev's squatting

weights, he said, " That's about right. He usually squatted with

weights that were equal to his Clean and Jerk " (11).

Regarding eev's assertion, consider the USA's Mark Henry. He could

front squat 325 kgs (10). However, his best clean and jerk was 220

kgs. Legendary squatter (1200 lbs in the back squat) had

a clean and jerk of about 200 kgs (23). Likewise, Shane Hammon has a

230 kg clean and jerk to his credit and has squatted about a 1000 lb.

In each of these cases the clean and jerk to squat ratio is

considerably outside the norm (9,18,20,22) . Their results in the squat

had long since reached the point of diminishing returns.

Anatoly Pisarenko had a result of between 280 - 290 kgs in the back

squat and a clean and jerk of 262.5 kgs. On this subject of " big back

squats " and " big lifts " , Kurlovich (12), said he witnessed

Pisarenko miss a squat of 260 kgs in training; only to clean and jerk

it 5 days later. According to Taranenko, " if he (Pisarenko) had to

stop at the bottom of a clean, he would not be able to get up " (11).

This observation by Taranenko, is of course the crux of the issue. The

three big squatters cited, who were pinned with their cleans, all

stopped at the bottom and then tried to recover. Conversely, eev

and Pisarenko always employed good technique in timing the recovery in

order to utilize the bend in the bar and the storage of elastic energy

produced by the rapidly stretching muscles.

During the competition of the 94 kg class at the 2001 European

championships the author saw one of the lifters make a very easy 175

kg snatch. This prompted the person seated next to me to point - out,

this power was due, without a doubt, to his ability to front - squat

300 kg. Subsequently, I watched this same lifter, literally screaming

to recover from his 207.5 kg and 210 kg cleans. I had to point out to

this same person, that those weights could not possibly be that heavy,

for someone whose legs are purportedly, so strong.

Let's look at the second reason. The importance of the hamstring

muscles in weightlifting should not be underestimated (15,16). In the

snatch and the clean and jerk the greatest power output occurs in the

" explosion " phase (from a knee angle of about 120 - 125 degrees). The

power the lifter generates in the final acceleration on the barbell

(i.e, the work of the quadriceps muscles) is facilitated considerably

by the speed with which the quadriceps have been stretched as the

knees shift forward under the bar.

The strength of the hamstrings (in performing flexion at the knee) in

relation to that of the quads, is critical to the speed with which the

action of shifting the knees under the bar occurs. Likewise, hamstring

strength (in stabilizing the hip) is crucial as the shins straighten

during the first phase of the pull. So, one needs to be careful not to

create a significant imbalance in strength between the quads and

hamstrings.

Therefore, the need for caution in planning a specialized loading for

squats - " A lot of squats adversely affect speed'' (12).

On this subject, " A lot of squats adversely affect speed " , we asked

Kurlovich about this squat program. The author of " Methods

of Developing Leg Strength " , A.A. Zenalov, is from Grodno. This is

just happens to be Kurlovich's hometown.

knew the coach but was unfamiliar with the program. He had

never used such a program. Generally, Kurlovich trained with weights

10 - 20 kgs in excess of his clean and jerk. His best front squat was

280 x 2 kgs (he clean and jerked 262.5 and 265 kgs, only to be turned

- down for not having the bar under control) and best back squat was

350 kgs (12).

He questioned the author's claim that this program had been employed

by the number and quality of lifters cited in the article. What is

interesting about the " routine " is that it appears to be in conformity

with the literature with respect to the search for the optimal number

of repetitions per set (3,4,5,6,7,14, 18,20) and the volume of squats

in training (17,18,20).

Like Kurlovich, Yuri Zakharevich apparently is between the two

extremes of the examples cited. His best front squat was 250 kgs, done

at the time of his best clean of 265 kgs. His best back squat was 300

kgs x 2; power clean 235 kgs; and, snatch from blocks - 215 kgs. He

has never heard of a " Russian Squat Routine " , and he personally, never

followed a special program of squatting, specifically to increase his

squat results (24).

Without a doubt, squats are the most important assistance exercise.

And, someday it may be universally accepted, that after a period of

several years of development, only the classic snatch, the classic

clean and jerk and front squats will make - up the weightlifter' s

arsenal of training exercises (19).

However, pursuit of a " big squat " to achieve high results in the

snatch and the clean and jerk, by doing specialized training on the

squat is questionable. In all likelihood it would be better to spend

more time and effort perfecting the technique of the clean and focus

on the front squat, which is more specific to the leg strength of the

recovery from the clean.

References

1. eev, V. I., " My training Experience " .

Tyazhelaya Atletika, 5:13, 1976

2. eev, V. I., " My training Experience " .

Tyazhelaya Atletika, 6:28, 1977

3. Berger, R.A., " Effect of Varied Weight Training Programs on

Strength " . Res. Quart., 33 (2):334, 1962

4. Berger, R.A., " Optimal Repetitions for the Development of

Strength " . Res. Quart., 33 (3):334, 1963.

5. Berger, R.A., " Comparative Effect of Three Weight Training

Programs " . Res. Quart., 34 (3)396, 1963

6. Berger, R.A., " Comparison Between Resistance Load and Strength

Improvement " . Res. Quart., 34 (4):637, 1962

7. Berger, R..A., " Effect of Maximum Loads for each of Ten Repetitions

on Strength Improvement " . Res. Quart., 38 (4)715, 1967

9. Chrenyak, A.V., " Methods for Planning the Training of

Weightlifters " , Fizkultura I Sport, Moscow, p 18 - 23, 44 - 46, 1978

10. Barnett, W., Personal Communication

11. Taranenko, L., Personal Communication

12. Kurlovitch, A., Personal Comunication

13. Krastev, A., Personal Comunication

14. Delorme, T. L., " Effect of progressive Resistance exercise on

Muscle Contraction " . Arch. Of Phys. Med. 33:86, 1952

15. Lukashev, A. A. " Substantiation of Methods of Perfecting Snatch

Technique of Class II Weightlifters " , 1980 Weightlifting Yearbook, p

Sportivny Press, Translated by Charniga, Jr.

16. Lakashev, A. A., Personal Communication

17. Ermakov, A.D., " The Training Load of Weightlifters in Pulls and

Squats " , 1980 Weightlifting Yearbook, p 34 - 38 Sportivny Press,

Translated by Charniga, Jr.

18. Roman, R.A., " The Training of the Weightlifter " Sportivny Press,

Translated by Charniga, Jr.

19. Roman, R. A., Personal Communication

20. Medvedyev, A.S., A System of Multi - Year Training in

Weightlifting " , Sportivny Press, Translated by Charniga, Jr.

21. Ivanov, D.I., " Russkii Ispolin - Vasily eev " Cov. Rossia,

Moscow, p - 131 - 141. 1980

22. Ivanov, A. T., " Squat Results and Their Connection to Achievements

in the Clean and Jerk " , Tyazhelaya Atletika, p26 - 29, Fizkultura I

Sport, Moscow 1976

23. Demarco, L. , Personal Communication

24. Zakharevich, Y., Personal Communication

Specificity of training, training program and insufficient speed

strength are the critical differences, just as posited by Roman,

Verkhoshansky and Siff.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA.

>

> Agreed, and I don't believe that anyone on this board believes to

the contrary. My origional point (and one that was never truly

addressed) was that Hammon and Henry's WL careers were stunted by

their lack of training and experience relative to the field, not by PLing.

>

> Dave Kirschen

> New York, NY

>

> ==============================

>

> To: supertraining@...: pmg68@...: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 17:06:20

-0700Subject: Re: Powerlifting <> Olympic Lifting?

>

> IMO, the best way to prepare for a good WL career is to do WL, and

the best way to prepare for a good PL career is to PL. Both have

merits as a sport, but using one as a base for the other is not

optimal. GarrisonMesa Community CollegeMesa,

AZ===============================To: Supertraining@...: EWHITE@...:

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:31:06 -0600Subject: Re:

Powerlifting <> Olympic Lifting?I'm almost afraid to post on this with

some of the posts I've read, not really, I'm an old Marine and Cop so

not much scares me. No science here just my own experience. I started

out as an Olympic lifter at the age of 14. I was a Missouri State

Champion by age 16 and feel pretty good about my chances of one day

being a lot more. I think my Olympic lifting back ground directly was

responsible for my better than average dead lift from day one in power

lifting. Over the years I still have done the Olympic lifts just for

something different and I felt they helped my explosiveness (such as

it is). I must say that as the years of power lifting progressed I

became less and less flexible in the areas needed (especially

shoulders) for the Olympic lifts. This despite my long career in

karate, judo, jujitsu, and the other fighting arts that require a

certain amount of flexibility. I also pretty religiously practice

dynamic stretching, yoga, and pilates. Most Olympic lifters I know and

I do still keep up with it pretty well would argue that the key for

anyone being productive in Olympic lifting is having a good coach.

talked about Mel being able to correct her OH squat in a very

short period.My point is that from my point of view power lifting has

robbed me of the flexibility I need for Olympic lifting. Having said

that I would not go back to Olympic Lifting because I never had the

passion for it that I do for power lifting nor did I build the power

from it that I have from power lifting. I trully believe that for me

there was carry over from Olympic lifting to Power lifting but I doubt

the inverse would be true. Still strong is strong and I feel pretty

confident that give me 6 months to train with a good coach and I could

compete on a National level in Olympic lifting. I throw this out just

as an individual example only and we all know there are many

individual differences.I guess I can't really get what all the fuss on

this topic is about and some of it is a little personal. Let's not

forget that Mel brought us all together to share opinions and thoughts

as well as scientific information to arrive at the best conclusions we

can. I think there are a lot of people that don't post on this list

because they think their thoughts are not needed or wanted but the

opposite is true. We need to get back to that and spirited debates

over relevant topics with the idea of promoting knowledge and good

training philosophies. At least that's my take but then I could be

wrong.Eddie WhiteBlue Springs, Mo. ===========================

>

[Guest guest]

An excellent article. I think alot of PL's are under the mistaken belief that

big numbers in the squat and deadlift will automatically translate to big number

in the C & J and the Snatch, and they often can't understand why alot of WL's

don't perform the deadlift regularly. To the untrained eye, the deadlift looks

almost exactly like the 1st pull of the Clean, and the back squat looks like the

catch phase of the clean and snatch. But as this article, and looking at at WL

lifting in slow motion shows, the lifts are different in small but fundamental

ways. While I think PL will give you a great strength background it's strength

that isn't necessarily well translated to weightlifting.

Garrison

Mesa Community College

Mesa, AZ

========================

To: Supertraining@...: ubermenschsports@...: Sat, 23

Feb 2008 05:37:23 +0000Subject: Re: Powerlifting <> Olympic

Lifting?

Dave, Apparently you missed this post:This article should provide the necessary

insight as to why long termPowerlifters will always have an extremely difficult

timetransitioning to Weightlifting and are unlikely to ever be able tocompete at

the elite level. Please note the direct references to Henryand Hammand and their

totals compared to numerous other heavy weights.From the Russian Weightlifting

LibraryConcerning the " Russian Squat Routine " Charniga, Jr.I have

published my translation of the article " Methods of Developingleg Strength " at

this time, for a couple of reasons. First, to allowanyone unfamiliar with the

origin of this program to see that it wasnot designed for Powerlifting or the

brainchild of any " Doctor ofSquatting " . Second, to raise the question as to

whether this type ofspecialized training for the legs is necessary for

weightlifting training.It is obvious from the contents of this article that it

is designedfor Olympic weightlifters. The author recommends this program if

one'ssquat results are below what is considered the norm; and, it is to

beapplied for a specific period of training - the preparatory period.The main

characteristic of this program which clearly distinguishes itfrom powerlifting

is that unlike Olympic lifting training, the legsare not even involved in one

lift (the bench press) and only for ashort range of motion in the other (the

deadlift). Conversely, legsare heavily involved in the lifting in both the

snatch and the cleanand jerk. So, any specialized loading for the legs in

Olympic liftinghas to take into consideration the overall loading on the legs

fromthe other exercises and the potential negative effect the hard legwork from

squatting would have on the performance of the mainexercises (the snatch and the

clean and jerk).Is a specialized squat routine necessary for Olympic

lifters?Training the squat is going to have the greatest effect on therecovery

phase of both the snatch and the clean. Since the weight inthe snatch is usually

about 80% of the clean, the lifter's legstrength in this segment is usually more

than sufficient to completethe recovery. So, it is in the clean, where the

lifter has to standwith a very heavy weight, that the leg strength that is

developed bysquatting is critical.Therefore, it is a logical assumption that if

one has difficultyrecovering from the clean, more squatting is needed. The

attraction ofthis particular Russian program to the western mind is that, one,

itappears to address the issue of a difficult recovery in the clean;two, it

conforms to the western notion of gradual change (in this caseimprovement in

strength) will be the inevitable result of a uniform,gradual and progressive

increase in the training load over a specifictime frame.The basic idea behind

this type of program is that each increase inthe number of repetitions per set

(from 6 sets of 2 to six sets ofsix) is appropriate; the body is ready and needs

this increase inorder for the muscles to respond. The notion that the body's

responseto training may take the form of a " Punctuated Equilibrium " is noteven

considered.Two reasons come to mind one should fore go employing this

" routine " :1. Squats alone do not address the technique of the clean.Technique

has a significant effect on the bio - mechanical efficiencyof the clean and

consequently the effort required of the recovery phase.2. The legs generate the

most productive power in weightlifting (orfor that matter in most of athletics)

over a relatively small range ofmotion at the knee, hip and ankle joints. The

hamstring muscles(within that relatively small range of motion at the knee,

ankle andhip, where the lifter generates the greatest forces on the barbell)are

not strengthened by squatting.With respect to the first reason, squatting and

the technique of theclean, consider the following examples of three outstanding

squatters.The author witnessed the Soviet superheavyweight Aslanbek

Yenaldievpinned with a 240 kg clean at the 1979 Spartakiade. He tried bouncing6

- 8 times but was physically unable to recover form the squat. Hewas the

" champion squatter " among the soviet lifters with a 455 kgback squat

(23).According to Leonid Taranenko (11), his best front squat was 300 kgsfor 3

repetitions. Yet, in exactly the same manner as Yenaldiev, theauthor witnessed

Taranenko pinned with 250 kgs at the 1983 SovietSpartakiade. It is does not make

sense that a lifter would be unableto stand with a weight 50 kgs below his

personal best in the front squat. Krastev (13), had a best front squat of

310 kgs, yet he wasunable to rise with successive 255 kgs and 257.5 kg cleans at

the 1987World's Championships.Now, consider the results of two of the world's

great lifters in theclean and jerk: Vasily eev and Anatoli

Pisarenko.According to eev (1,2, 21) he did not attempt to lift very

largeweights in the squat. Indeed, eev uses the following example toshow

that results in weightlifting are not dependent on high resultsin the squat.

" Look, a lot of guys train incorrectly. They end updoing a lot of work for

nothing. For example, Falyev is a 110 kglifter on the national team, who squats

with 320 kgs. I have neverused more than 270 kgs. This is a difference of 50 kgs

in ourrespective training weights. He clean and jerks 220 kgs and I do 256kgs.

So, results in the classic exercises are not determined by thestrength of the

legs " (21).When the author asked Leonid Taranenko about eev's

squattingweights, he said, " That's about right. He usually squatted withweights

that were equal to his Clean and Jerk " (11).Regarding eev's assertion,

consider the USA's Mark Henry. He couldfront squat 325 kgs (10). However, his

best clean and jerk was 220kgs. Legendary squatter (1200 lbs in

the back squat) hada clean and jerk of about 200 kgs (23). Likewise, Shane

Hammon has a230 kg clean and jerk to his credit and has squatted about a 1000

lb.In each of these cases the clean and jerk to squat ratio isconsiderably

outside the norm (9,18,20,22) . Their results in the squathad long since reached

the point of diminishing returns.Anatoly Pisarenko had a result of between 280 -

290 kgs in the backsquat and a clean and jerk of 262.5 kgs. On this subject of

" big backsquats " and " big lifts " , Kurlovich (12), said he

witnessedPisarenko miss a squat of 260 kgs in training; only to clean and jerkit

5 days later. According to Taranenko, " if he (Pisarenko) had tostop at the

bottom of a clean, he would not be able to get up " (11).This observation by

Taranenko, is of course the crux of the issue. Thethree big squatters cited, who

were pinned with their cleans, allstopped at the bottom and then tried to

recover. Conversely, eevand Pisarenko always employed good technique in

timing the recovery inorder to utilize the bend in the bar and the storage of

elastic energyproduced by the rapidly stretching muscles.During the competition

of the 94 kg class at the 2001 Europeanchampionships the author saw one of the

lifters make a very easy 175kg snatch. This prompted the person seated next to

me to point - out,this power was due, without a doubt, to his ability to front -

squat300 kg. Subsequently, I watched this same lifter, literally screamingto

recover from his 207.5 kg and 210 kg cleans. I had to point out tothis same

person, that those weights could not possibly be that heavy,for someone whose

legs are purportedly, so strong.Let's look at the second reason. The importance

of the hamstringmuscles in weightlifting should not be underestimated (15,16).

In thesnatch and the clean and jerk the greatest power output occurs in

the " explosion " phase (from a knee angle of about 120 - 125 degrees). Thepower

the lifter generates in the final acceleration on the barbell(i.e, the work of

the quadriceps muscles) is facilitated considerablyby the speed with which the

quadriceps have been stretched as theknees shift forward under the bar.The

strength of the hamstrings (in performing flexion at the knee) inrelation to

that of the quads, is critical to the speed with which theaction of shifting the

knees under the bar occurs. Likewise, hamstringstrength (in stabilizing the hip)

is crucial as the shins straightenduring the first phase of the pull. So, one

needs to be careful not tocreate a significant imbalance in strength between the

quads andhamstrings.Therefore, the need for caution in planning a specialized

loading forsquats - " A lot of squats adversely affect speed'' (12).On this

subject, " A lot of squats adversely affect speed " , we asked Kurlovich

about this squat program. The author of " Methodsof Developing Leg Strength " ,

A.A. Zenalov, is from Grodno. This isjust happens to be Kurlovich's

hometown. knew the coach but was unfamiliar with the program. He

hadnever used such a program. Generally, Kurlovich trained with weights10 - 20

kgs in excess of his clean and jerk. His best front squat was280 x 2 kgs (he

clean and jerked 262.5 and 265 kgs, only to be turned- down for not having the

bar under control) and best back squat was350 kgs (12).He questioned the

author's claim that this program had been employedby the number and quality of

lifters cited in the article. What isinteresting about the " routine " is that it

appears to be in conformitywith the literature with respect to the search for

the optimal numberof repetitions per set (3,4,5,6,7,14, 18,20) and the volume of

squatsin training (17,18,20).Like Kurlovich, Yuri Zakharevich apparently is

between the twoextremes of the examples cited. His best front squat was 250 kgs,

doneat the time of his best clean of 265 kgs. His best back squat was 300kgs x

2; power clean 235 kgs; and, snatch from blocks - 215 kgs. Hehas never heard of

a " Russian Squat Routine " , and he personally, neverfollowed a special program of

squatting, specifically to increase hissquat results (24).Without a doubt,

squats are the most important assistance exercise.And, someday it may be

universally accepted, that after a period ofseveral years of development, only

the classic snatch, the classicclean and jerk and front squats will make - up

the weightlifter' sarsenal of training exercises (19).However, pursuit of a " big

squat " to achieve high results in thesnatch and the clean and jerk, by doing

specialized training on thesquat is questionable. In all likelihood it would be

better to spendmore time and effort perfecting the technique of the clean and

focuson the front squat, which is more specific to the leg strength of

therecovery from the clean.References1. eev, V. I., " My training

Experience " .Tyazhelaya Atletika, 5:13, 19762. eev, V. I., " My training

Experience " .Tyazhelaya Atletika, 6:28, 19773. Berger, R.A., " Effect of Varied

Weight Training Programs onStrength " . Res. Quart., 33 (2):334, 19624. Berger,

R.A., " Optimal Repetitions for the Development ofStrength " . Res. Quart., 33

(3):334, 1963.5. Berger, R.A., " Comparative Effect of Three Weight

TrainingPrograms " . Res. Quart., 34 (3)396, 19636. Berger, R.A., " Comparison

Between Resistance Load and StrengthImprovement " . Res. Quart., 34 (4):637,

19627. Berger, R..A., " Effect of Maximum Loads for each of Ten Repetitionson

Strength Improvement " . Res. Quart., 38 (4)715, 19679. Chrenyak, A.V., " Methods

for Planning the Training ofWeightlifters " , Fizkultura I Sport, Moscow, p 18 -

23, 44 - 46, 197810. Barnett, W., Personal Communication11. Taranenko, L.,

Personal Communication12. Kurlovitch, A., Personal Comunication13. Krastev, A.,

Personal Comunication14. Delorme, T. L., " Effect of progressive Resistance

exercise onMuscle Contraction " . Arch. Of Phys. Med. 33:86, 195215. Lukashev, A.

A. " Substantiation of Methods of Perfecting SnatchTechnique of Class II

Weightlifters " , 1980 Weightlifting Yearbook, pSportivny Press, Translated by

Charniga, Jr.16. Lakashev, A. A., Personal Communication17. Ermakov,

A.D., " The Training Load of Weightlifters in Pulls andSquats " , 1980

Weightlifting Yearbook, p 34 - 38 Sportivny Press,Translated by Charniga,

Jr.18. Roman, R.A., " The Training of the Weightlifter " Sportivny

Press,Translated by Charniga, Jr.19. Roman, R. A., Personal

Communication20. Medvedyev, A.S., A System of Multi - Year Training

inWeightlifting " , Sportivny Press, Translated by Charniga, Jr.21.

Ivanov, D.I., " Russkii Ispolin - Vasily eev " Cov. Rossia,Moscow, p - 131 -

141. 198022. Ivanov, A. T., " Squat Results and Their Connection to

Achievementsin the Clean and Jerk " , Tyazhelaya Atletika, p26 - 29, Fizkultura

ISport, Moscow 197623. Demarco, L. , Personal Communication24. Zakharevich, Y.,

Personal CommunicationSpecificity of training, training program and insufficient

speedstrength are the critical differences, just as posited by

Roman,Verkhoshansky and Siff.W.G. Ubermensch Sports ConsultancySan Diego,

CA.>>

Agreed, and I don't believe that anyone on this board believes tothe contrary.

My origional point (and one that was never trulyaddressed) was that Hammon and

Henry's WL careers were stunted bytheir lack of training and experience relative

to the field, not by PLing.> > Dave Kirschen> New York, NY> >

==============================> > To: supertraining@...: pmg68@...: Thu, 21 Feb

2008 17:06:20-0700Subject: Re: Powerlifting <> Olympic Lifting?>

> IMO, the best way to prepare for a good WL career is to do WL, andthe best way

to prepare for a good PL career is to PL. Both havemerits as a sport, but using

one as a base for the other is notoptimal. GarrisonMesa Community

CollegeMesa,AZ===============================To: Supertraining@...:

EWHITE@...:Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:31:06 -0600Subject:

Re:Powerlifting <> Olympic Lifting?I'm almost afraid to post on this withsome of

the posts I've read, not really, I'm an old Marine and Cop sonot much scares me.

No science here just my own experience. I startedout as an Olympic lifter at the

age of 14. I was a Missouri StateChampion by age 16 and feel pretty good about

my chances of one daybeing a lot more. I think my Olympic lifting back ground

directly wasresponsible for my better than average dead lift from day one in

powerlifting. Over the years I still have done the Olympic lifts just

forsomething different and I felt they helped my explosiveness (such asit is). I

must say that as the years of power lifting progressed Ibecame less and less

flexible in the areas needed (especiallyshoulders) for the Olympic lifts. This

despite my long career inkarate, judo, jujitsu, and the other fighting arts that

require acertain amount of flexibility. I also pretty religiously

practicedynamic stretching, yoga, and pilates. Most Olympic lifters I know andI

do still keep up with it pretty well would argue that the key foranyone being

productive in Olympic lifting is having a good coach. talked about Mel

being able to correct her OH squat in a veryshort period.My point is that from

my point of view power lifting hasrobbed me of the flexibility I need for

Olympic lifting. Having saidthat I would not go back to Olympic Lifting because

I never had thepassion for it that I do for power lifting nor did I build the

powerfrom it that I have from power lifting. I trully believe that for methere

was carry over from Olympic lifting to Power lifting but I doubtthe inverse

would be true. Still strong is strong and I feel prettyconfident that give me 6

months to train with a good coach and I couldcompete on a National level in

Olympic lifting. I throw this out justas an individual example only and we all

know there are manyindividual differences.I guess I can't really get what all

the fuss onthis topic is about and some of it is a little personal. Let's

notforget that Mel brought us all together to share opinions and thoughtsas well

as scientific information to arrive at the best conclusions wecan. I think there

are a lot of people that don't post on this listbecause they think their

thoughts are not needed or wanted but theopposite is true. We need to get back

to that and spirited debatesover relevant topics with the idea of promoting

knowledge and goodtraining philosophies. At least that's my take but then I

could bewrong.Eddie WhiteBlue Springs, Mo. ===========================>

[Guest guest]

Bill,

I think your post here is reiterating the posts on

specificity a little (which was answered and summed up

nicely by Dr. Yessis; Thank you for the advice Dr.

Yessis!). Most people don't realize it but the

technique involved in the Olympic Lifts and the way

the force is absorbed is considerably different then

the common back squat and front squat. In other words

back squatting and front squatting are not going to

make you a great Olympic Lifter, only actually doing

the Olympic Lifts are! But the biggest issue I think

most people on here have had with this post is the

notion that someone who has been a powerlifter in the

past can " never " be a great Olympic Lifter. I

completely disagree with that notion. I agree that

trying to do them congruently is not a great idea if

you want to be great at one or the other (that is kind

of like working on your short range jumper in

basketball when you want to improve your long-range

shooting). Getting good at something is all about how

much work you have put into it, how much time you have

had to do it, how well you do it everytime single time

you do it, and a many other factors which includes

genetics. In this regard I agree with , I am

sure there is many an athlete who could have became

great Olympic Lifters but they chose other sports to

do instead(and that includes powerlifting). Of course

there are also many Olympic Lifters who could have

been great at other sports as well. Imagine a guy

like eev, with a lot of practice, playing American

Football!

On another note I really believe we need to start

defining things and making things clearer in our posts

(and that includes myself). I think Dr. Yessis said

this best in his post:

" In looking over the many posts regarding specificity,

I don't think there will be any " consensus " because

the posts relate to different level athletes,

different periods of training and how experienced the

athletes are, etc. They all have merit but until the

populations, period of training --if periodization is

used-- and the definition of specificity is given,

agreement is impossible. Understand that most specific

exercises should be done in the SPP phase.

Bondarchuk's book Transfer of Training, can also help

explain this. "

A basic way for us to do this is by defining these

kinds of things: 1)basic definition of subject (if

applicable), 2)population or level of athlete,

3)period of training, 4)kind of training model

(periodization, etc.)

Things in regards to diet can be similar:

Basic definitions, basic premise of the diet, people

using it, and what are the major goals of the

individual or the diet itself.

Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS

Minneapolis, MN

--- " W.G. 'Bill' "

wrote:

> Dave,

> Apparently you missed this post:

> This article should provide the necessary insight as

> to why long term

> Powerlifters will always have an extremely difficult

> time

> transitioning to Weightlifting and are unlikely to

> ever be able to

> compete at the elite level. Please note the direct

> references to Henry

> and Hammand and their totals compared to numerous

> other heavy weights.

>

> From the Russian Weightlifting Library

>

> Concerning the " Russian Squat Routine "

> Charniga, Jr.

>

> I have published my translation of the article

> " Methods of Developing

> leg Strength " at this time, for a couple of reasons.

> First, to allow

> anyone unfamiliar with the origin of this program to

> see that it was

> not designed for Powerlifting or the brainchild of

> any " Doctor of

> Squatting " . Second, to raise the question as to

> whether this type of

> specialized training for the legs is necessary for

> weightlifting training.

>

> It is obvious from the contents of this article that

> it is designed

> for Olympic weightlifters. The author recommends

> this program if one's

> squat results are below what is considered the norm;

> and, it is to be

> applied for a specific period of training - the

> preparatory period.

>

> The main characteristic of this program which

> clearly distinguishes it

> from powerlifting is that unlike Olympic lifting

> training, the legs

> are not even involved in one lift (the bench press)

> and only for a

> short range of motion in the other (the deadlift).

> Conversely, legs

> are heavily involved in the lifting in both the

> snatch and the clean

> and jerk. So, any specialized loading for the legs

> in Olympic lifting

> has to take into consideration the overall loading

> on the legs from

> the other exercises and the potential negative

> effect the hard leg

> work from squatting would have on the performance of

> the main

> exercises (the snatch and the clean and jerk).

>

> Is a specialized squat routine necessary for Olympic

> lifters?

>

> Training the squat is going to have the greatest

> effect on the

> recovery phase of both the snatch and the clean.

> Since the weight in

> the snatch is usually about 80% of the clean, the

> lifter's leg

> strength in this segment is usually more than

> sufficient to complete

> the recovery. So, it is in the clean, where the

> lifter has to stand

> with a very heavy weight, that the leg strength that

> is developed by

> squatting is critical.

>

> Therefore, it is a logical assumption that if one

> has difficulty

> recovering from the clean, more squatting is needed.

> The attraction of

> this particular Russian program to the western mind

> is that, one, it

> appears to address the issue of a difficult recovery

> in the clean;

> two, it conforms to the western notion of gradual

> change (in this case

> improvement in strength) will be the inevitable

> result of a uniform,

> gradual and progressive increase in the training

> load over a specific

> time frame.

>

> The basic idea behind this type of program is that

> each increase in

> the number of repetitions per set (from 6 sets of 2

> to six sets of

> six) is appropriate; the body is ready and needs

> this increase in

> order for the muscles to respond. The notion that

> the body's response

> to training may take the form of a " Punctuated

> Equilibrium " is not

> even considered.

>

> Two reasons come to mind one should fore go

> employing this " routine " :

>

> 1. Squats alone do not address the technique of the

> clean.

> Technique has a significant effect on the bio -

> mechanical efficiency

> of the clean and consequently the effort required of

> the recovery phase.

> 2. The legs generate the most productive power in

> weightlifting (or

> for that matter in most of athletics) over a

> relatively small range of

> motion at the knee, hip and ankle joints. The

> hamstring muscles

> (within that relatively small range of motion at the

> knee, ankle and

> hip, where the lifter generates the greatest forces

> on the barbell)

> are not strengthened by squatting.

>

> With respect to the first reason, squatting and the

> technique of the

> clean, consider the following examples of three

> outstanding squatters.

>

> The author witnessed the Soviet superheavyweight

> Aslanbek Yenaldiev

> pinned with a 240 kg clean at the 1979 Spartakiade.

> He tried bouncing

> 6 - 8 times but was physically unable to recover

> form the squat. He

> was the " champion squatter " among the soviet lifters

> with a 455 kg

> back squat (23).

>

> According to Leonid Taranenko (11), his best front

> squat was 300 kgs

> for 3 repetitions. Yet, in exactly the same manner

> as Yenaldiev, the

> author witnessed Taranenko pinned with 250 kgs at

> the 1983 Soviet

> Spartakiade. It is does not make sense that a lifter

> would be unable

> to stand with a weight 50 kgs below his personal

> best in the front squat.

>

> Krastev (13), had a best front squat of 310

> kgs, yet he was

> unable to rise with successive 255 kgs and 257.5 kg

> cleans at the 1987

> World's Championships.

>

> Now, consider the results of two of the world's

> great lifters in the

> clean and jerk: Vasily eev and Anatoli

> Pisarenko.

>

> According to eev (1,2, 21) he did not attempt to

> lift very large

> weights in the squat. Indeed, eev uses the

> following example to

> show that results in weightlifting are not dependent

> on high results

> in the squat. " Look, a lot of guys train

> incorrectly. They end up

> doing a lot of work for nothing. For example, Falyev

> is a 110 kg

> lifter on the national team, who squats with 320

> kgs. I have never

> used more than 270 kgs. This is a difference of 50

> kgs in our

> respective training weights. He clean and jerks 220

> kgs and I do 256

> kgs. So, results in the classic exercises are not

> determined by the

> strength of the legs " (21).

>

> When the author asked Leonid Taranenko about

> eev's squatting

> weights, he said, " That's about right. He usually

> squatted with

> weights that were equal to his Clean and Jerk " (11).

>

> Regarding eev's assertion, consider the USA's

> Mark Henry. He could

> front squat 325 kgs (10). However, his best clean

> and jerk was 220

> kgs. Legendary squatter (1200 lbs in

> the back squat) had

> a clean and jerk of about 200 kgs (23). Likewise,

> Shane Hammon has a

> 230 kg clean and jerk to his credit and has squatted

> about a 1000 lb.

> In each of these cases the clean and jerk to squat

> ratio is

>

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