Re: Weightlifters and Shoulder Health

[Guest guest]

Having made this transition myself at the age of 50...

Start overhead squatting now. And work on speed.

As well, do a lot of overhead lifts. I do things like the windmill

just to work on internal rotation. However, in the snatch and with the

jerk, the shoulders not only need to internally rotate, but the

scapula have to be retracted during the motion. So you almost have to

work on internal rotation bilaterally, which the windmill doesn't do.

Overhead squats do.

I would worry less about getting good technique right now as building

a base of ROM and strength so you can work on technique later. I tried

to do the classic lifts right away and I still don't have a good squat

snatch. I didn't have the necessary ROM about the shoulder to develop

a good motor program, especially in the catch. So now I'm focusing

more on the catch positions - and doing OH squats a lot.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

> What do olympic lifters do to aid shoulder health? When I started

> lifting at 13 my training was based around the squat, bench, and

> deadlift. Now that I'm trying to transition into Olympic Weightlifting

> all of my weaknessess are glaring eg: weak upper back, weak traps,

> weak

> shoulders, lack of speed etc etc.

>

> However, I have a specific question, that is, how do I fix my

> shoulders

> internal rotation, and once I've fixed it what type of movements

> should

> I be doing in my routine to prevent internal rotation from occuring

> again?

>

> G. Polizos

> Norwalk, CT USA

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

An inherent problem with doing a lot of bench pressing, such as in

powerlifting training or stereotypical gym rat training, where chest

work is overemphasized, is over development of the chest in

relationship to the upper back. Inattention to the proper balance of

strength between chest and back combined with a lack of flexibility

training usually results in a loss of range of motion of the shoulder

joint because of internal rotation due to tight chest muscles and

adaptive shortening of the connective tissues of the AC joint.

TEST:

A simple test for internal rotation and adaptive shortening is to have

the athlete stand with upper arm straight out to the side parallel to

the floor with the forearm perpendicular (elbow bent so the forearm is

pointing straight up) to the upper arm, like taking an oath. Then,

while the athlete is relaxed and exerting just enough strength to hold

the arm up, while facing the athlete from the side, place a couple of

fingers on the backside facing part of the elbow to stabilize it and

with the other hand gently push the wrist posteriorly (back). A fully

functional shoulder will allow you to push the forearm backward until

the cupped palm could hold water without bending the wrist. At this

point the upper arm is parallel to the floor and still bent 90 degrees

or perpendicular from upper arm, and the lower arm is now close to and

if the shoulder is fully flexible, on the same plane, with palm facing

up. This is the position a baseball pitcher brings a fastball from and

is indicative of full range of motion in the shoulder.

Some athletes are so tight that even a fairly good push on the wrist

won't move the forearm backward but a few degrees. Testing a right

arm, the forearm is at the 12:00 O'clock position. Moving the forearm

backward to anything less than the 10:00 o'clock position indicates

poor range of motion. Too forceful an effort may cause pain and little

more backward movement. Care is necessary, a fairly small amount of

force can cause damage to a very tight shoulder joint. If the forearm

will not bend backward and down without discomfort, you've got a tight

chest and shoulder with internal rotation.

REHAB:

1. Brachiating with a broom stick or some PVC pipe is a start. Barry

Bonds may be a steroid mutant, but if you've ever watched him warm up

you've probably seen him grasp a baseball bat in front of him with

arms parallel and palms facing down and bring the bat over his head,

with arms straight, all the way back to his butt. That's shoulder

flexibility. Do the same with the broom handle or PVC pipe with arms

as wide as necessary to go front to back without bending your elbows.

Your shoulders may be so tight that you have to place your hands so

wide that you can barely get the pipe over your head. Whatever hand

position you start with, progressively bring your hands closer

together as you feel your shoulders open up. It will take many weeks,

if not months, to overcome the adaptive shortening in the AC joint, if

this stretching is done daily.

2. With hands placed in the small of the back on top of each other,

palm out, bring the elbows as close together as possible under your

own power, then have a partner press the elbows closer together for a

quick count of 1,2, and then release. Bring the elbows forward, relax,

and do it again for at least 10-20 reps, daily.

Here are a number of other shoulder stretching exercises:

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/4560_stretching-shoulder-muscles.htm

http://www.taosortho.com/patientinfo/Medical/shoulders/stretching.htm

http://www.shoulder-pain-management.com/shoulderrotatorcuffexercises.html

http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/ViewMiscArticle.aspx?TabId=445 & Alias=Rainbow & \

Lang=en-US & mid=700 & ItemId=700

Upper back strengthening exercises will also be beneficial. Increasing

upper back strength will help open up the shoulders and expedite rehab.

Consequences:

Following these and other stretching exercises will eventually cause

the shoulders to open up and become much more functional and a lot

stronger.

Failure to address the problem of internal rotation and adaptive

shortening can be catastrophic. A certain amount of laxity and

concurrent stability of the humeral joint is necessary in order to

execute overhead throws of any kind. this is known as " the thrower's

paradox " . If you're tight and you try to spike a volleyball, throw a

baseball or football, or even a punch, there are numerous injuries

that can be sustained by the shoulder complex. If you engage in any

throwing, if the proper level of strength and range of motion are not

maintained, you are at risk. It is preferable to maintain shoulder

strength and flexibility and avoid therapy and/or surgery. As good as

reconstructive surgical technique has become, it is still an

expensive, painful and often lengthy hassle.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego CA

>

> What do olympic lifters do to aid shoulder health? When I started

> lifting at 13 my training was based around the squat, bench, and

> deadlift. Now that I'm trying to transition into Olympic Weightlifting

> all of my weaknessess are glaring eg: weak upper back, weak traps, weak

> shoulders, lack of speed etc etc.

>

> However, I have a specific question, that is, how do I fix my shoulders

> internal rotation, and once I've fixed it what type of movements should

> I be doing in my routine to prevent internal rotation from occuring

> again?

>

> G. Polizos

> Norwalk, CT USA

>

[Guest guest]

I am a powerlifter, but I also work my upper, lower back, and shoulders hard

and heavy: seated rows, pulldowns, pullups, deadlifts, Romanian deadlifts,

seated behind neck presses, rear delt laterals. I only bench press once a

week.

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

In a message dated 7/13/2008 12:18:56 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

ubermenschsports@... writes:

An inherent problem with doing a lot of bench pressing, such as in

powerlifting training or stereotypical gym rat training, where chest

work is overemphasized, is over development of the chest in

relationship to the upper back. Inattention to the proper balance of

strength between chest and back combined with a lack of flexibility

training usually results in a loss of range of motion of the shoulder

joint because of internal rotation due to tight chest muscles and

adaptive shortening of the connective tissues of the AC joint.

TEST:

A simple test for internal rotation and adaptive shortening is to have

the athlete stand with upper arm straight out to the side parallel to

the floor with the forearm perpendicular (elbow bent so the forearm is

pointing straight up) to the upper arm, like taking an oath. Then,

while the athlete is relaxed and exerting just enough strength to hold

the arm up, while facing the athlete from the side, place a couple of

fingers on the backside facing part of the elbow to stabilize it and

with the other hand gently push the wrist posteriorly (back). A fully

functional shoulder will allow you to push the forearm backward until

the cupped palm could hold water without bending the wrist. At this

point the upper arm is parallel to the floor and still bent 90 degrees

or perpendicular from upper arm, and the lower arm is now close to and

if the shoulder is fully flexible, on the same plane, with palm facing

up. This is the position a baseball pitcher brings a fastball from and

is indicative of full range of motion in the shoulder.

Some athletes are so tight that even a fairly good push on the wrist

won't move the forearm backward but a few degrees. Testing a right

arm, the forearm is at the 12:00 O'clock position. Moving the forearm

backward to anything less than the 10:00 o'clock position indicates

poor range of motion. Too forceful an effort may cause pain and little

more backward movement. Care is necessary, a fairly small amount of

force can cause damage to a very tight shoulder joint. If the forearm

will not bend backward and down without discomfort, you've got a tight

chest and shoulder with internal rotation.

REHAB:

1. Brachiating with a broom stick or some PVC pipe is a start. Barry

Bonds may be a steroid mutant, but if you've ever watched him warm up

you've probably seen him grasp a baseball bat in front of him with

arms parallel and palms facing down and bring the bat over his head,

with arms straight, all the way back to his butt. That's shoulder

flexibility. Do the same with the broom handle or PVC pipe with arms

as wide as necessary to go front to back without bending your elbows.

Your shoulders may be so tight that you have to place your hands so

wide that you can barely get the pipe over your head. Whatever hand

position you start with, progressively bring your hands closer

together as you feel your shoulders open up. It will take many weeks,

if not months, to overcome the adaptive shortening in the AC joint, if

this stretching is done daily.

2. With hands placed in the small of the back on top of each other,

palm out, bring the elbows as close together as possible under your

own power, then have a partner press the elbows closer together for a

quick count of 1,2, and then release. Bring the elbows forward, relax,

and do it again for at least 10-20 reps, daily.

Here are a number of other shoulder stretching exercises:

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/4560_stretching-shoulder-muscles.htm

http://www.taosortho.com/patientinfo/Medical/shoulders/stretching.htm

http://www.shoulder-pain-management.com/shoulderrotatorcuffexercises.html

http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/ViewMiscArticle.aspx?TabId=445 & Alias=Rainbo

w & Lang=en-US & mid=700 & ItemId=700

Upper back strengthening exercises will also be beneficial. Increasing

upper back strength will help open up the shoulders and expedite rehab.

Consequences:

Following these and other stretching exercises will eventually cause

the shoulders to open up and become much more functional and a lot

stronger.

Failure to address the problem of internal rotation and adaptive

shortening can be catastrophic. A certain amount of laxity and

concurrent stability of the humeral joint is necessary in order to

execute overhead throws of any kind. this is known as " the thrower's

paradox " . If you're tight and you try to spike a volleyball, throw a

baseball or football, or even a punch, there are numerous injuries

that can be sustained by the shoulder complex. If you engage in any

throwing, if the proper level of strength and range of motion are not

maintained, you are at risk. It is preferable to maintain shoulder

strength and flexibility and avoid therapy and/or surgery. As good as

reconstructive surgical technique has become, it is still an

expensive, painful and often lengthy hassle.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego CA

>

> What do olympic lifters do to aid shoulder health? When I started

> lifting at 13 my training was based around the squat, bench, and

> deadlift. Now that I'm trying to transition into Olympic Weightlifting

> all of my weaknessess are glaring eg: weak upper back, weak traps, weak

> shoulders, lack of speed etc etc.

>

> However, I have a specific question, that is, how do I fix my shoulders

> internal rotation, and once I've fixed it what type of movements should

> I be doing in my routine to prevent internal rotation from occuring

> again?

>

> G. Polizos

> Norwalk, CT USA

>

[Guest guest]

Ed,

What is the purpose of doing behind the neck presses seated?

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA

> >

> > What do olympic lifters do to aid shoulder health? When I started

> > lifting at 13 my training was based around the squat, bench, and

> > deadlift. Now that I'm trying to transition into Olympic

Weightlifting

> > all of my weaknessess are glaring eg: weak upper back, weak

traps, weak

> > shoulders, lack of speed etc etc.

> >

> > However, I have a specific question, that is, how do I fix my

shoulders

> > internal rotation, and once I've fixed it what type of movements

should

> > I be doing in my routine to prevent internal rotation from occuring

> > again?

> >

> > G. Polizos

> > Norwalk, CT USA

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Seated behind neck presses really strengthen my shoulders and upper back. I

can bench press more when I train with things like seated behind neck

presses, rear delt laterals, seated rows, pulldowns/pullups. If I don't

strengthen

my shoulders and upper back then when I go to bench press my shoulders will

bother me from being overdeveloped in the front and not developed enough in

the back (that's non scientific but I hope it makes sense.)

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

In a message dated 7/14/2008 1:59:01 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

ubermenschsports@... writes:

Ed,

What is the purpose of doing behind the neck presses seated?

===============================

[Guest guest]

Ed,

Behind the neck presses are much more effective done standing erect

for several reasons:

1. Doing overhead exercises seated puts a great deal of stress on the

discs of the lower lumbar.

2. It turns the exercise into a full body exercise.

3. You can go much heavier.

4. You can go even heavier by doing behind the neck push presses. This

allows the use of heavier weights and the introduction of velocity to

the exercise because you start the lift with a short sharp dip of the

knees to start the bar off the shoulders. Additionally, you can use

your legs in the eccentric phase to drop under the bar and avoid

letting the heavier weight crash on the shoulders.

Seated behind the neck presses come from bodybuilding and are not as

effective as a strength exercise as standing behind the neck presses

because of the lower load higher rep scheme.

Make sense?

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA

>

>

> Seated behind neck presses really strengthen my shoulders and upper

back. I

> can bench press more when I train with things like seated behind neck

> presses, rear delt laterals, seated rows, pulldowns/pullups. If I

don't strengthen

> my shoulders and upper back then when I go to bench press my

shoulders will

> bother me from being overdeveloped in the front and not developed

enough in

> the back (that's non scientific but I hope it makes sense.)

>

> Edwin Freeman, Jr.

> San Francisco, USA

>

> In a message dated 7/14/2008 1:59:01 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

> ubermenschsports@... writes:

>

> Ed,

> What is the purpose of doing behind the neck presses seated?

>

> ===============================

>

[Guest guest]

I have arthritis in my left hip; had it surgically repaired (pelvic

osteotomy) 10 years ago. That's why I choose to do them seated. I do full

squats,

belt squats, full deadlifts, Romanian deadlifts without any pain or problems

and I do go heavy. I do want to give my hip a little rest between leg

workouts.

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

---------------------------------

In a message dated 7/16/2008 12:11:30 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

ubermenschsports@... writes:

Ed,

Behind the neck presses are much more effective done standing erect

for several reasons:

1. Doing overhead exercises seated puts a great deal of stress on the

discs of the lower lumbar.

2. It turns the exercise into a full body exercise.

3. You can go much heavier.

4. You can go even heavier by doing behind the neck push presses. This

allows the use of heavier weights and the introduction of velocity to

the exercise because you start the lift with a short sharp dip of the

knees to start the bar off the shoulders. Additionally, you can use

your legs in the eccentric phase to drop under the bar and avoid

letting the heavier weight crash on the shoulders.

Seated behind the neck presses come from bodybuilding and are not as

effective as a strength exercise as standing behind the neck presses

because of the lower load higher rep scheme.

Make sense?

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Edwin,

Do you do any other overhead pressing exercises? Or is this the only

one?

Do you claim that the neck presses have to be behind the neck to

notice any strengthening of the shoulders?

Just wondering,

Regards,

Johan Bastiaansen

Hasselt, Belgium.

>

>

> Seated behind neck presses really strengthen my shoulders and upper

back. ...>

> Edwin Freeman, Jr.

> San Francisco, USA

[Guest guest]

I was just stating what works for me. I do seated behind neck presses in a

power rack starting with the barbell at neck level to get a full lift. I do

not start with the weight high up, lower the weight, and then push up. I

start with the weight behind the neck, in the lowest position, then push

overhead, then hold for about ten seconds, then lower back down when I am doing

1

repetition maxes. I am not claiming anything; just stating what works for my

own body.

Edwin Freeman, Jr.

San Francisco, USA

===============================

In a message dated 7/17/2008 12:51:39 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

Johan.Bastiaansen@... writes:

Edwin,

Do you do any other overhead pressing exercises? Or is this the only

one?

Do you claim that the neck presses have to be behind the neck to

notice any strengthening of the shoulders?

Just wondering,

==============================

[Guest guest]

Hi Guys,

What advantages do you see in performing " behind the necks " ? From an

evolutionary perspective our bodies evolved as a function of pulling from above

but

not as a function of pushing to above especially from behind the neck?

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

[Guest guest]

> Develop external rotation.

>

> Doesn't the evolutionary argument seem to be a bit of a red herring? A 

> better question would be what each individual can adapt to. If I was a 

> javelin thrower or a baseball player I'd think that one adaptation I 

> would like to see is strength through a large range of external 

> rotation. I look at the way the Chinese weightlifters can support huge 

> loads over their heads while doing full squats and I'm kind of 

> thinking " This has some application to athletic training! "

****

Greetings ,

More of a warning than a herring I submit. My expressions are based on the

possible long term structural damages from non evolutionary adaptations pursued

in the guise of momentary gains.

I know many a mature (as a function of age) trainer who has permanent

shoulder damage from said adaptations and some lucky ones who when switched from

anything, pull or pushed from/to directly above the head, recovered their

earlier

magnificence minus the pressing applause.

I wager there are many more methods to maximize systemic external rotation

functions than " chinese weightlifters who support hugeloads over their heads

while doing full squats "

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

[Guest guest]

Develop external rotation.

Doesn't the evolutionary argument seem to be a bit of a red herring? A

better question would be what each individual can adapt to. If I was a

javelin thrower or a baseball player I'd think that one adaptation I

would like to see is strength through a large range of external

rotation. I look at the way the chinese weightlifters can support huge

loads over their heads while doing full squats and I'm kind of

thinking " This has some application to athletic training! "

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

> Hi Guys,

>

> What advantages do you see in performing " behind the necks " ? From an

> evolutionary perspective our bodies evolved as a function of pulling

> from above but

> not as a function of pushing to above especially from behind the neck?

>

> Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Guys,

>

> What advantages do you see in performing " behind the necks " ? From an

> evolutionary perspective our bodies evolved as a function of pulling

from above but

> not as a function of pushing to above especially from behind the neck?

>

> Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA

>

Then again, how comes you know how our bodies evolved ? Are you an

evolutionary biologist which just presented proof to his peers that

homo sapiens species bodies evolved as function " of pulling from

above " ? If so, ill will be thrilled to read your research abstracts.

Every monkey can pull itself So i guess they where adept at

pulling way before " our / their bodies evolved " .

Dan Partelly

Oradea, Romania

[Guest guest]

First, the evolution perspective is somewhat dated. Second, primates

brachiating through the trees may not have much need to do overhead

pressing but never the less, through evolutionary adaptation, their

shoulder complex is very strong and quite capable of lifting multiples

of their bodyweight overhead if necessary.

Regardless, as rightly pointed out, among athletes at this time,

pressing is very valuable training for almost all athletes, and

throwers in particular. Bear in mind that the shoulder joint rotates a

full 360 degrees. Also remember the " thrower's paradox " I mentioned in

a previous post. The fully functional joint requires strength and

flexibility through a full range of motion. The shoulder joint wasn't

necessarily designed to execute an iron cross or a superman on the

rings but national level gymnasts do them. Their shoulders are

ridiculously strong and flexible. Doubt it? Try an iron cross. You

won't be able to do it. Gymnasts require a unique strength that's

rather sport specific and requires many years of training.

Every thrower I've ever worked with does a wide variety of exercises

to maximize shoulder strength. From throwing a 35 lb ball overhead

with both hands against a wall as hard as possible to behind the neck

push presses with several hundred pounds to 20 rep sets of weighted

pull ups. The shoulder complex is worked from every angle. Failure to

do so will not allow the athlete to perform optimally. In the field

events, volleyball, baseball and any sport where something must be

thrown, including people, as in wrestling and Judo, and punches, as in

Karate and boxing, the last link in the kinetic chain that can exert

that last little bit of extra power that may just be the difference

between success or coming in 5th, is the shoulder complex.

And the stronger it is while maintaining just the right amount of

flexibility, the less likely the athlete is to succumb to injury.

Just to do a behind the neck barbell press correctly indicates a

properly functioning shoulder joint, or at least a lack of internal

rotation and adaptive shortening of the AC joint.

That's a good place to start on a shoulder complex strengthening

program.

The important thing in science is not so much to obtain new facts as

to discover new ways of thinking about them.

- Sir Bragg

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA

>

> Hi Guys,

>

> What advantages do you see in performing " behind the necks " ? From an

> evolutionary perspective our bodies evolved as a function of pulling

from above but

> not as a function of pushing to above especially from behind the neck?

>

> Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jerry,

LOL! Yes, I'd have to agree that external rotation can be maximized

in a better fashion. You make some good points. On the other hand,

what an excellent full body exercise the OH squat is!

But I do believe there are very few bad exercises. More correctly,

there are few exercises that don't have some application at some time

in someones training! I don't think the press behind the neck causes

problems if the movement and load are developed progressively. The

problem and the reason many trainers have shoulder problems is that

they don't do that.

Dr. Siff made the comment one time that back in the days when the

press was still contested rotator cuff problems were unheard of for

weightlifters. I don't think it is unnatural at all to lift something

overhead.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

>

>

> > Develop external rotation.

> >

> > Doesn't the evolutionary argument seem to be a bit of a red

> herring? A

> > better question would be what each individual can adapt to. If I

> was a

> > javelin thrower or a baseball player I'd think that one adaptation I

> > would like to see is strength through a large range of external

> > rotation. I look at the way the Chinese weightlifters can support

> huge

> > loads over their heads while doing full squats and I'm kind of

> > thinking " This has some application to athletic training! "

>

> ****

> Greetings ,

>

> More of a warning than a herring I submit. My expressions are based

> on the

> possible long term structural damages from non evolutionary

> adaptations pursued

> in the guise of momentary gains.

> I know many a mature (as a function of age) trainer who has permanent

> shoulder damage from said adaptations and some lucky ones who when

> switched from

> anything, pull or pushed from/to directly above the head, recovered

> their earlier

> magnificence minus the pressing applause.

>

> I wager there are many more methods to maximize systemic external

> rotation

> functions than " chinese weightlifters who support hugeloads over

> their heads

> while doing full squats "

>

> Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA