Re: Hoarding

February 17, 2000

, So much sounds like my home. Can't imagine more than one. I do the same

thing w/ Krysti, not DAD. He is awesome but she confides in me. We have a

quiet understanding about almost all her ocd related. Mostly in her room,

Clothes, books, school papers, notes, wrappers from everything, hoards candy

(ants) and water. Whats w/ water. They have good taste.

We let her go awhile, I can go in her room off and on and put dirty clothes in

laundry room. She does her own. I can throw away wrappers and organize the

floor only. Stuff has to be around the front of her bed for safety. Fianlly

figured that out after I killed myself trying to kiss her goodnight. (she

laughed at me.)

Krysti's big thing is the bathroom. Showers used to be over 1.5 hrs. Washing

down shower and sinks and self. Since on Zoloft (after paxil, luvox) what a

difference. One thing in our house is when we go somewhere, she has to be the

last one out of the house. She will exit her room then meet us in the car.

Used to take at least 30 min. to go anywhere and the fear on her face if we

rushed. (we didn't even know ocd @ the time)

Now on new meds she can leave when ready, even if we leave after, less time in

the shower. Definitely when anxiety rises she has a tough time. As a sophomore

she was put in Advance English because of her schedule. She never complained,

no progress reports. Well that " D " arrived on her report card (hip hip for

another teacher that lets a student fail) (I know - not all) We talked to her

about the class and she broke down about reading out loud in class and

re-reading a sentence till the bell rang. Same thing w/ testing. My god my

poor child was trying her heart out! Well we got her on ADA-504 plan and have

her in basic english in the library only to report once a week w/ Advance

teacher to check homework. Guess what she is ahead. She has a smile everyday.

High anxiety makes her spin.

Great talking to you (sorry so much, it just comes when I talk to someone like

me. I have been so alone in this.)

Talk more

Smiles for you today

Lori-California

W. Birkhan wrote:

> From: " W. Birkhan " <wb4@...>

>

> It is called hoarding. She can't throw anything out, even a glass of

> >water. She will set it in a certain spot and then I know it's okay to be

> >thrown (as long as she doesn't do it). >Lori

>

> Lori!

>

> Hoarders!!! I live with 4 of those!! 3 are much improved, but poor ziv, 10,

> has a hard time throwing things away! I periodically go through her room,

> with her, and we remove items. She knows that Friday she cant play after

> school until her room is done. If its not tidy by Sat. still no friends.

> Usually she has it under control by Friday night. Her room may have several

> glasses of water, school notes, a week of laundry (clean and dirty), books,

> wrappers, pictures.... ! Working together has really helped her, but it can

> only be with me. If her father tries, she screams and is so full of anxiety

> that I have to get involved anyway!!

>

> Our compromise about the clothing: She likes to have it sticking out of her

> drawers to see what she has, which of course drives the others nuts, but I

> dont care. The rule is No clothing on the floor. Once a month I make her

> open and close her closet doors - if they dont go smoothly, she has to clean

> it out! This structure has helped a lot.

>

> I still have her leaving things all over the house (sweaters and socks are

> the worst), but so does her father, who presently has 2 coats and a sweater

> on the back of the couch, a pair of boots and 2 pairs of running shoes near

> the front door - not at the front door - and his snow pants on the back of

> the computer desk chair. This disorganization drives Adi and Tom 'nuts'

> since they both like everything in its place!!!!!!

> Personally, picking up their stuff is not on my priority list, hence they

> stay wherever they leave them - even if its for weeks. )

>

> take care, wendy in canada wb4@...

> ______________________________________________________

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>

> ---------------------------

February 20, 2000

My mother has to be one of the worst hoarders I have ever seen. She can't

throw any thing out. If I take anything to the garage to the garbage bin, I

have caught her later going out and bringing everything back inside. She has

newspapers and circulars, coupons (most of them expired), plastic bags,

plastic dishes from microwave meals, and bunches of other stuff. No matter

what, she can't bear to throw anything out. Not only that, but if she is at

my house she will ask for my ads and circulars and papers and coupons to take

back to her house. I throw these things out on a daily basis just so there

will never be any lying around should she come to visit. Her kitchen table,

counter tops, and nearly every surface is covered with these papers. She has

stacked them in a pile around her couch, some of the rooms in her house you

can barely open the door. Christmas paper, ribbon (most of it unusable),

boxes that are stained and warped from water spills, ,the list goes on and

on... she refuses to get help, but maybe when she sees my daughter getting

help she will be able to recognize and accept help for herself. It's a

nightmare! I feel like her house is a fire trap.

Jay W.

February 20, 2000

Jay W.,

Last year I heard of a program with the Los Angeles Fire Dept.

Recognizing that hoarding can be a fire hazard, they set up a program where

a volunteer would come to the house and assess the fire risk, and then help

the person go through and throw out the dangerous items. Of course not

everyone can allow a stranger to go through their " personal " items, but the

choice is usually clean out or be fined and have someone else do it.

Perhaps you can contact the fire dept. near your mother and ask them if

they have a similar program.

good luck and take care, wendy in canada

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February 20, 2000

The hardest thing is acceptance that one needs help. That must be hard to see

your Mother going through this! I agree that if she sees your daughter getting

better, she might stop to realize that there is help out there and it is not

painful.

Stay in touch

Lori

Jay7138658@... wrote:

> From: Jay7138658@...

>

> My mother has to be one of the worst hoarders I have ever seen. She can't

> throw any thing out. If I take anything to the garage to the garbage bin, I

> have caught her later going out and bringing everything back inside. She has

> newspapers and circulars, coupons (most of them expired), plastic bags,

> plastic dishes from microwave meals, and bunches of other stuff. No matter

> what, she can't bear to throw anything out. Not only that, but if she is at

> my house she will ask for my ads and circulars and papers and coupons to take

> back to her house. I throw these things out on a daily basis just so there

> will never be any lying around should she come to visit. Her kitchen table,

> counter tops, and nearly every surface is covered with these papers. She has

> stacked them in a pile around her couch, some of the rooms in her house you

> can barely open the door. Christmas paper, ribbon (most of it unusable),

> boxes that are stained and warped from water spills, ,the list goes on and

> on... she refuses to get help, but maybe when she sees my daughter getting

> help she will be able to recognize and accept help for herself. It's a

> nightmare! I feel like her house is a fire trap.

> Jay W.

>

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> subscribe OCD-L your name.

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> Parenting List may be accessed by going to

> .

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> Click on the highlighted list name and then click on index.

February 21, 2000

My mother is also a hoarder. There is no way she would let a stranger into

her house! Everytime she goes away for a weekend or anything my brothers and

I go over and rent a dumpster and clean out her house. We can't do it when

she is home because she won't let us thrown ANYTHING away!

Patti

<<

From: " W. Birkhan " <wb4@...>

Jay W.,

Last year I heard of a program with the Los Angeles Fire Dept.

Recognizing that hoarding can be a fire hazard, they set up a program where

a volunteer would come to the house and assess the fire risk, and then help

the person go through and throw out the dangerous items. Of course not

everyone can allow a stranger to go through their " personal " items, but the

choice is usually clean out or be fined and have someone else do it.

Perhaps you can contact the fire dept. near your mother and ask them if

they have a similar program.

good luck and take care, wendy in canada >>

February 21, 2000

Just getting caught up on the message traffic after a camping trip to

the mountains with .

As most of you know, i am co-moderator of the Hoarding and Cluttering

mini-list established by a Kotakis. Even though your loved ones

may be unwilling to admit they hoard and clutter and thus not want to

join our moni-list, we do have resources available for each of you [if

you are interested].

Please let me know if you are interested in receiving copies of the

documents we have to help you to learn about and hopefully to assist

your loved ones in dealing with it.

jim in san diego

jjmcf@...

February 21, 2000

HI Jim:

Hope you had a great mountain camping trip with .

Thanks so much for your offer to educate us on hoarding and the resources

available to help understand and treat this form of OCD. Please share your

information on this list so we can all become more knowledgeable. Take

care, aloha, Kathy (H)

kathyh@...

At 02:33 PM 02/21/2000 -0800, you wrote:

>From: " Jim " <jjmcf@...>

>

>Just getting caught up on the message traffic after a camping trip to

>the mountains with .

>

>As most of you know, i am co-moderator of the Hoarding and Cluttering

>mini-list established by a Kotakis. Even though your loved ones

>may be unwilling to admit they hoard and clutter and thus not want to

>join our moni-list, we do have resources available for each of you [if

>you are interested].

>

>Please let me know if you are interested in receiving copies of the

>documents we have to help you to learn about and hopefully to assist

>your loved ones in dealing with it.

>

>jim in san diego

>

>jjmcf@...

February 21, 2000

Unfortunately, hoarding and cluttering is among the least studied and

least understood of the most common OCD issues. Currently on our

mini-list we have 80 members with an age range of 12 to 70 years old.

We have members from Germany, Japan, Korea, NWT, Jamaica, and accross

the USA.

The documents we use are Chapter 23 from Dr. J's text on OCD, an

article by Dr. Fred Penzel, and the chat forum following the 20/20

segment on hoarding and cluttering.

As requested i will send a ciopy of these documents to our List. Only

Chapter 23 is in multiple parts [five].

Shortly, I will add some personal insight into the more efective

approaches to use in trying to understand/help those who hoard and/or

clutter.

jim in san diego

jjmcf@...

February 21, 2000

HI Jim:

Thanks for posting this information. I look forward to reading your

personal insight into effective approaches, especially any advice about

remaining suppportive when hoarding interferes with important parts of

family life like raising the kids, etc.

Take care, aloha, Kathy (H)

kathyh@...

At 08:41 PM 02/21/2000 -0800, you wrote:

>From: " Jim " <jjmcf@...>

>

>Unfortunately, hoarding and cluttering is among the least studied and

>least understood of the most common OCD issues. Currently on our

>mini-list we have 80 members with an age range of 12 to 70 years old.

>We have members from Germany, Japan, Korea, NWT, Jamaica, and accross

>the USA.

>

>The documents we use are Chapter 23 from Dr. J's text on OCD, an

>article by Dr. Fred Penzel, and the chat forum following the 20/20

>segment on hoarding and cluttering.

>

>As requested i will send a ciopy of these documents to our List. Only

>Chapter 23 is in multiple parts [five].

>

>Shortly, I will add some personal insight into the more efective

>approaches to use in trying to understand/help those who hoard and/or

>clutter.

>

>jim in san diego

>jjmcf@...

>

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>The Archives and Links List for the OCD and

>Parenting List may be accessed by going to

>/.

>Enter your email address and password.

>Click on the highlighted list name and then click on index or links.

>

February 22, 2000

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the information on hoarding. I have saved it to a folder for

future reference. Hoarding is an issue in our home also.

BTW, a Kotakis has always been a wonderfully supportive member of the OCD-L

and I am glad that she has you has a moderator for the Hoarding List.

Take care.

Louis

harkins@...

February 27, 2000

Jim. I would be interested in learning more about hoarding.

Thanks

Mamimiz

February 27, 2000

Jim, I too would love any info on hoarding.

Lori

September 25, 2000

> What I really should do is have a dempsey dumpster <

> deposited outside my front door and use a shovel. <

> hahaha<

>Jule <

Jule,

Can I come and watch?? I love to see how others manage to get rid of their

stuff!! Maybe I'll bring my gang along so they can see how it is done!!!

just let me know when! ) wendy, in canada

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September 25, 2000

Kathy-

did you rent this with approval and prior discussion with him? Or did it

just show up one day when you had had enough?

I am filled with anger about this situation, I think kicked into high gear

because he has been out of work for 15 months, and could have tackled some of

the problem, instead, of course it is getting worse.

Half of me would like to rent the dumpster and take care of this on my own,

might get some of my anger thrown out along with the garbage (he says its not

garbage, you never know when you might need--fill in the blank--) but I

realize this is not a good idea.

Ellen

September 25, 2000

----- Original Message -----

From: <j.monnens@...>

> Now, however, having lived

> in the same house for 20 years (horrors!) I have accummulated huge

quantities of

> STUFF. Watching Caitlin declutter her room (up to a point, mind) when she

> packed for college made me think how much I want to do the same thing.

What I

> really should do is have a dempsey dumpster deposited outside my front

door and

> use a shovel. hahaha

You are kidding here but I actually did this about a year ago. Those things

are very expensive to rent PLUS there's a built-in deadline because the

company will be back to retrieve it on a certain day, full or no.

This kicked my hoarder extraordinaire (dh) into high gear, he was slow

getting going but at the end of five days we had filled that very biggest

one you can rent up to the load line. Major benefit: we reclaimed our

basement, we could again walk into the garage (not park in there mind you,

but a definite improvement.)

Now we have space for hoarding for the next 20 years . . . :-(

Kathy R. in Indiana

September 25, 2000

Hi Ellen:

It is not a good idea to throw out a hoarder's stuff without their

approval. Even with their approval, to get better they need to learn to

discard their own stuff. The problem is that most hoarders do not

recognize their symptoms as excessive and think of it as someone else's

problem so do not want to do the hard work to change. Medications have not

been much help in controlling hoarding symptoms unfortunately.

As a shadow syndrome hoarder I can tell you it is very anxiety provoking to

get rid of your stuff. Logic doesn't work. You have to work on getting

agreement about this. ly is wonderful about my hoarding. He

has only confronted me once about 12 years ago and I thought he was

dreadfully insensitive. Of course neither of us knew it was shadow

syndrome hoarding. It is only recently that I have started learning how to

model my behavior after him to throw things away.

One thing I do is open my mail over the garbage can. I also have a special

place for bills which I now pay twice a month after payday. My therapist

has me collecting all donation requests and invitations to subscribe to

magazines (do I have a ton of subscriptions!!) and review them every 6

months and then every year. First I am to decide a budget for these items

and stop ordering or donating when I reach this budget.

Also phone calls for money I am to tell them it is my doc's fault I cannot

donate as I have homework to practice refusing. The first time I tried

this the guy on the other end got really annoyed at me, he thought I was

lying and it annoyed me so much I didn't feel like donating anymore!!

I also have to throw out two feet of papers every two weeks or make a large

donation to an organization that I abhor. Catalogs go out unless I am

ordering immediately, then they go out after I have placed my order. I

have also addressed this cognitively as well as behaviorally.

Understanding why I hold onto things, how distorted my thoughts about their

value are, reminding myself how much I want to live in less clutter,

reminding myself how seldom I actually need something I have kept, and if I

don't have it I will find another way to get needed information, have

helped me stay on track.

Sometimes I wish would stand by me as I turf things out and encourage

me. He does compliment me when I am done though. Sometimes I ask him if I

should keep an item and have decided to go with his decision about what's

appropriate. It took me a long time to accept my thinking on this was

flawed. (aka the denial our kids have about their OCD-VBG).

BTW, the more down and anxious you are the harder it is to declutter. IT

seems to me very understandable that your husband is struggling to do this

when he is home and out of work.

There is not that much written about hoarding, and I would encourage you to

get your husband to read what you can find and read it to him if he is

balking. Reading about the different thought distortions behind hoarding

really made it clear to me that I have a shadow syndrome problem with

hoarding as I have many of the thought distortions that have been

identified in hoarding.

Your husband is doing one right now, thinking that he can't toss something

out because you never know if you may need it one day. That is true of

course, but it does not follow logically that you should keep everything

that you may need one day. IT took me quite a while to recognize this. I

also have distortions about the value of items, e.g. old greeting cards,

old letters, old calendars, magazines, etc. Being raised by a hoarder

doesn't help me either.

BTW, I have not tackled any of my OCD information hoarding activities

through CBT yet <VBG> Have to report in to as she is always kidding

me about this.

Good luck, take care, aloha, Kathy (H)

kathyh@...

At 11:27 AM 09/25/2000 -0400, you wrote:

>Kathy-

>

>did you rent this with approval and prior discussion with him? Or did it

>just show up one day when you had had enough?

>

>I am filled with anger about this situation, I think kicked into high gear

>because he has been out of work for 15 months, and could have tackled some

of

>the problem, instead, of course it is getting worse.

>

>Half of me would like to rent the dumpster and take care of this on my own,

>might get some of my anger thrown out along with the garbage (he says its

not

>garbage, you never know when you might need--fill in the blank--) but I

>realize this is not a good idea.

>

>Ellen

February 24, 2001

Yesterday, I got all ready, in boots and gloves and hat and winter

coat, tied the dog up to play, and went to shovel our six inches of

snow-- looked in my two car garage, the furnace room, the crawl

space, looked really hard, called my hubby, he says I was very nasty,

but I could not believe I could not locate a shovel. He says there

are at least 5. I could not find one among all the other stuff he

has accumulated-- these have to be fairly noticable, no? Very

difficult to live with a hoarder-- I get so annoyed at being unable

to find things I need-- we've had quite a bit of snow this year too,

so its not as if they ought to be behind piles at this point either!

(Of course he says he doesn't have OCD, just never knows when he will

need any of this stuff....)Found a broom, and tried sweeping the snow

off at least the front steps, fuming the whole time.

Ellen

February 24, 2001

Ellen, I share your frustration...we have hoarders and

AD/HD in varying forms in this family and I am usually

considered to be THE WITCH LADY because I INSIST

THINGS BE PUT BACK WHERE THEY BELONG!! Of course, the

putting away part doesn't usually happen, but I still

try! I know this must be so anger provoking for you

as you have been stressed to the limit for a long

time. Some things that I find I really need I have

taken to hiding so that only I will know where they

are. I remember having to look for an hour one time

for a pencil in order to do one of those computer read

forms that only will read a No. 2 pencil and that did

it for me! With 4 kids, one of which is ADD

Inattentive type, another AD/HD Combined type and OCD

and a hussband who has AD/HD inattentive type and

depression situation like you are describing are

enough for me to shovel using my feet by kicking some

snow. Hang in there and maybe you can hide a shovel

in a secret place so you will not have to go through

this again!

--- elan214@... wrote:

> Yesterday, I got all ready, in boots and gloves and

> hat and winter

> coat, tied the dog up to play, and went to shovel

> our six inches of

> snow-- looked in my two car garage, the furnace

> room, the crawl

> space, looked really hard, called my hubby, he says

> I was very nasty,

> but I could not believe I could not locate a shovel.

> He says there

> are at least 5. I could not find one among all the

> other stuff he

> has accumulated-- these have to be fairly noticable,

> no? Very

> difficult to live with a hoarder-- I get so annoyed

> at being unable

> to find things I need-- we've had quite a bit of

> snow this year too,

> so its not as if they ought to be behind piles at

> this point either!

> (Of course he says he doesn't have OCD, just never

> knows when he will

> need any of this stuff....)Found a broom, and tried

> sweeping the snow

> off at least the front steps, fuming the whole time.

>

> Ellen

>

__________________________________________________

February 26, 2001

I know just what you mean Kathy. I once had a Christmas present for

that was so big I didn't want to have to haul it up the steps to our

apartment. So I " hid " it in the back seat of my car - he never noticed!

Jackie

February 26, 2001

Hi , I enjoyed your post as I also have my secret stash of things such

as screwdrivers, scissors, pencils etc. to avoid searching long periods just

to do short tasks. Doug just goes out and buys another whatever, to get out

of the search.

I don't have to be too tricky with my secret things however. In our house,

you could " hide " car keys on a hook near the door, pencils in a cup on the

office desk, cookies in the snack drawer and so on! :-) *No one* puts

things back where they belong and so doesn't look there for them.

Kathy R in Indiana

----- Original Message -----

From: " Joye " <cjoye16@...>

> time. Some things that I find I really need I have

> taken to hiding so that only I will know where they

> are. I remember having to look for an hour one time

> for a pencil in order to do one of those computer read

> forms that only will read a No. 2 pencil and that did

> it for me!

February 27, 2001

You could be my twin!!!

--- Kathy <klr@...> wrote:

> Hi , I enjoyed your post as I also have my

> secret stash of things such

> as screwdrivers, scissors, pencils etc. to avoid

> searching long periods just

> to do short tasks. Doug just goes out and buys

> another whatever, to get out

> of the search.

>

> I don't have to be too tricky with my secret things

> however. In our house,

> you could " hide " car keys on a hook near the door,

> pencils in a cup on the

> office desk, cookies in the snack drawer and so on!

> :-) *No one* puts

> things back where they belong and so doesn't look

> there for them.

>

> Kathy R in Indiana

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " Joye " <cjoye16@...>

> > time. Some things that I find I really need I have

> > taken to hiding so that only I will know where

> they

> > are. I remember having to look for an hour one

> time

> > for a pencil in order to do one of those computer

> read

> > forms that only will read a No. 2 pencil and that

> did

> > it for me!

>

__________________________________________________

January 9, 2006

Hi Everyone,

I don't have time to read through all the emails just yet (dh's family is

visiting for 3 months! yikes!) but wanted to comment on the hoarding issue.

I just wanted to say that my son started hoarding over a year ago. He's now

10 and has no problem tossing items in the trash. Compare this with his digging

through the trash to save things...even specks of dust he didn't want to

throw away. Ugh. I am so amazed at his progress because I never thought I'd have

my happy, kind little boy back. Once in a while he will hang on to something

and realize it's an ocd thing...like the box one of his xmas gifts came in this

year. He put it in the closet and tells me, " I think I need some more vitamin

B. " I do need to go get some more before the hoarding starts taking hold of

him again. But inositol (vitamin was our lifesaver...along with this list!!

By the way, the photos from xmas 2004 and xmas 2005, well, it doesn't even

look like the same child!

Hang in there, it should get better.

Debbi {{{hugs for everyone on the list}}}

May 7, 2007

Welcome to the group. You should find some support and help here.

We've all been through so many similar situations. And we all

understand what each other is going through. It's great to be able to

have understanding from those who know.

Our son hoarded terribly when he was young. I didn't even realize at

that time that it was OCD I was dealing with. I used to clean out his

room while he was in school. He would save every little scrap of

paper even. Once we started homeschooling, I was doomed (no way to

sneak-clean anymore). lol As he got older, he would part with stuff

(sometimes), but would take pictures of whatever it was so he could

remember it. He voluntarily started deleting pictures off of his

computer a while back because he realized he didn't even remember some

of the stuff, and it was taking up waaaaaaaaay too much room on his

hard drive. He told the therapist that it almost seems like to him

that these things are alive and he can't just throw them out. He

knows they aren't alive, but he feels that deeply attached to them.

We haven't started working on it yet in his therapy, so I'm not sure

what steps he will have to take for it. Hopefully somebody in here

has been through the exposure part of that before and can give you

some helpful advice.

BJ

>

> Hi. My son is 13 years old and has been diagnosed with ocd hoarding.

> We have been dealing with his inability to discard anything all his

> life. For example, sarting at a very young age, he would get very upset

> if I tried to thow away the shoes he had outgrown. He'd have a new

> pair of shoes, but I would have hide the old ones until he had

> forgotten about them and then throw them away secretly. now, he has a

> toy room full of toys he's way too old for, but can't part with any of

> it, not even the toys he got from Burger King.

>

> I've never participated in a group before, so I'm in the process of

> learning how to navigate. What I'm looking for is what other parents

> with children that hoard have done. What has worked and what hasn't?

> I don't know where to start. The psychiatrist I am taking him to is of

> little help, other than to prescibe some medication. What can I do to

> help my son?

>

May 7, 2007