Testing

[Guest guest]

I see a chiropractor who prescribes supplements based on muscle testing but I am

not convinced that it works. Though he

has helped with his choices, there have been those supplements that made me

sick, gave me headaches, and those that just

didn't work. My husband came up with a test for muscle testing: take three

substances and put them into six identical

containers (clean, never used before, not see-through). Neither tester nor

subject know what is in any jar. Do the

muscle testing. The two identical substances should end up in the same pile

(good or bad). We tried chocolate,

chicken, lettuce. Even though we have had a knowledgeable tester try it, and my

husband, it didn't work. However, I

know one doctor, two massage therapists, and two dog trainers that swear by it.

Deb

LEBRACE@... wrote:

> From: LEBRACE@...

>

> Hi all -

>

> Just wondering if anyone has entered into the world of muscle testing and

> what their experience has been - for allergies, vitamins, minerals, etc?

>

> Thanks!

>

> LuAnn

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gwen,

I don't think so. Just quiet.

Bev

rheumatic testing

> From: Gwen Armstrong <armstrog@...>

>

> Are we down

>

>

> ---------------------------

[Guest guest]

Gwen,

Hope everything went well with the sugery. I am kinda new. Mostly been ease

dropping... but have had a lot of questions ansered here also.

blessings,

Sherry

>Hi

>I'm back from surgery. Just want to be sure I am back on the list.

>Gwen

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

hello i have not gotten any e-mail from this group today on my PC.....can't

reach my internet provider...wondering if something is up with or is it

my provider????

[Guest guest]

is definitely messed up. By the subject line it looks like you

replied to a post that I tried to post earlier... although it never

came through on my end and is not in the list of messages.

weird.

> hello i have not gotten any e-mail from this group today on my

PC.....can't

> reach my internet provider...wondering if something is up with

or is it

> my provider????

[Guest guest]

Kathy -funny you should bring up how the tests can be unfair...Tanner pointed to

the file cabinet and to the picture and smiled at the examiner as he

pointed back and forth when she asked him " what is it? " The examiner

laughed " Yes it's found in schools -so we know that. What's it

called? " I thought it was pretty cool he was able to notice they

are the same even though we never talk/use file cabinets at home.

Vera -I love the way you always point various sides. I agree with

you that knifes are typically used to cut food even though some of us

don't use them around our preschool children for fear they may then

want to " try it " . Here are just two of the many articles on the zero

tolerance rule -many of us live in the NY/NJ area where it's taken

seriously -maybe too much so at times -maybe not.

" Other examples of excessively punitive action have also gained

attention. In Louisiana, an 8-year-old girl was expelled for bringing

her grandfather's pocket watch to school because there was a small

knife attached to the timepiece; and in Rhode Island, a 12-year-old

was removed from school for flashing a toy gun in class (Portner,

1997). "

http://npin.org/pnews/2000/pnew300/feat300.html and more at

http://www.ed.gov/offices/OESE/SDFS/GFSA/appendixa.html

And -you should let everyone know how bright really is

even though he may have tested low on those old (literally) old

tests. 's bus driver brags about him every time I see her!

Will you be at the graduation? I was so embarrassed when I started

to tear at the preschool graduation last year I'm such a pitiful mush

pot -can you imagine me watching Tanner and my nephew this

year graduate -when they play the graduation march and they all come

out with those cute hats and all?!!

=====

[Guest guest]

My daughter is going for a extensive neuro pysch testing in

the next 2 weeks. It is for our lawyer for our medical malpractice

case. The worse does the better for her lawsuit. Of course,

I would like her to do well.

I still don't take much stock in those tests. I don't think anyone

can prove anything with a 5 year old.

> -

> I had that same problem with testing and I remember how furious I

was. When

> was nonverbal and first being tested, my one source of

pride was that

> I felt that was at a " normal " level cognitively, he just

couldn't say

> anything. >

> in NJ

> KDR@c...

[Guest guest]

-

I had that same problem with testing and I remember how furious I was. When

was nonverbal and first being tested, my one source of pride was that

I felt that was at a " normal " level cognitively, he just couldn't say

anything. When he went into the speech therapist for his first major

evaluation, a few things stand out in my memory loud and clear. First of

all, they showed him a picture of some vehicles and among them was something

that looked like an Amtrak train (black and white picture at that). They

asked him to point out the train. His knowledge of a train at 2 1/2 was

the Train and similar playschool toys. Not that he didn't know what

a train was, he just never saw a sleek, silver Amtrak train so he failed

that one. Then they had a picture of a white bone and asked him to pick out

the dog's bone. Who gives their dog white bones that look like they came

from a human? I give my dogs colored Milk Bone brand and that to him is a

dog cookie so there again, he failed that one. I sat there and tried to

explain but of course it didn't matter. Those tests are so black and white

and our children are most definitely grey. The evaluation results put him

at a very low cognitive level and it took me a while to come to grips with

that and ignore what it said in writing because I knew damn well that he was

smart. Their pictures were just bad. Oh yeah, they also had the rotary

dial telephone in there too. Get real!

in NJ

KDR@...

[Guest guest]

Yes , we have become a silly society. And just as women have passed on

the culture to children for ages and ages, it's still up to us to make sense

of it for our kids.

Vera

> Kathy -funny you should bring up how the tests can be unfair...Tanner pointed

> to

> the file cabinet and to the picture and smiled at the examiner as he

> pointed back and forth when she asked him " what is it? " The examiner

> laughed " Yes it's found in schools -so we know that. What's it

> called? " I thought it was pretty cool he was able to notice they

> are the same even though we never talk/use file cabinets at home.

>

> Vera -I love the way you always point various sides. I agree with

> you that knifes are typically used to cut food even though some of us

> don't use them around our preschool children for fear they may then

> want to " try it " . Here are just two of the many articles on the zero

> tolerance rule -many of us live in the NY/NJ area where it's taken

> seriously -maybe too much so at times -maybe not.

>

> " Other examples of excessively punitive action have also gained

> attention. In Louisiana, an 8-year-old girl was expelled for bringing

> her grandfather's pocket watch to school because there was a small

> knife attached to the timepiece; and in Rhode Island, a 12-year-old

> was removed from school for flashing a toy gun in class (Portner,

> 1997). "

> http://npin.org/pnews/2000/pnew300/feat300.html and more at

> http://www.ed.gov/offices/OESE/SDFS/GFSA/appendixa.html

>

> And -you should let everyone know how bright really is

> even though he may have tested low on those old (literally) old

> tests. 's bus driver brags about him every time I see her!

> Will you be at the graduation? I was so embarrassed when I started

> to tear at the preschool graduation last year I'm such a pitiful mush

> pot -can you imagine me watching Tanner and my nephew this

> year graduate -when they play the graduation march and they all come

> out with those cute hats and all?!!

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

,

The answer to your annoyance is in your letter, namely that your child is 2

1/2.....and the examiner knows that and there's lots of room for recognition

of that and his life's experiences to that point.

That bone picture, the train picture...these are not make-or-break issues.

Vera

> -

> I had that same problem with testing and I remember how furious I was. When

> was nonverbal and first being tested, my one source of pride was that

> I felt that was at a " normal " level cognitively, he just couldn't say

> anything. When he went into the speech therapist for his first major

> evaluation, a few things stand out in my memory loud and clear. First of

> all, they showed him a picture of some vehicles and among them was something

> that looked like an Amtrak train (black and white picture at that). They

> asked him to point out the train. His knowledge of a train at 2 1/2 was

> the Train and similar playschool toys. Not that he didn't know what

> a train was, he just never saw a sleek, silver Amtrak train so he failed

> that one. Then they had a picture of a white bone and asked him to pick out

> the dog's bone. Who gives their dog white bones that look like they came

> from a human? I give my dogs colored Milk Bone brand and that to him is a

> dog cookie so there again, he failed that one. I sat there and tried to

> explain but of course it didn't matter. Those tests are so black and white

> and our children are most definitely grey. The evaluation results put him

> at a very low cognitive level and it took me a while to come to grips with

> that and ignore what it said in writing because I knew damn well that he was

> smart. Their pictures were just bad. Oh yeah, they also had the rotary

> dial telephone in there too. Get real!

>

> in NJ

> KDR@...

[Guest guest]

Vera,

It IS a make-or-break issue for most of our kids when dealing with

standardized tests. If the child doesn't get the question right,

regardless of their age or the context of their experience, they fail

that question which has an effect on over all score, which leads to

classification of cognitive ability and how the child will be placed

and perceived. In my experience with my son who was misdiagnosed

with PDD due in large part to his responses to these standardized

testing questions, if the child doesn't fit inside " the box " of these

tests, the examiners refuse to think outside of it as they must take

a " right or wrong " answer by testing standards. Examiners may know

there is lots of room for recognition of life experiences, however,

the test scores will not reflect this as they must mark the question

as right or wrong depending on what the test is looking for as a

concrete answer.

> ,

> The answer to your annoyance is in your letter, namely that your

child is 2

> 1/2.....and the examiner knows that and there's lots of room for

recognition

> of that and his life's experiences to that point.

> That bone picture, the train picture...these are not make-or-break

issues.

> Vera

>

[Guest guest]

Just curious...and I'm new here, so please don't jump down my throat (second

time I've posted...first time was a bit un-nerving as I was apparently very

misunderstood in my post. Gonna try again here:)

What is to stop you from finding another evaluator? Obviously in this

situation, or ones like it, the evaluator was not qualified to diagnose Apraxia.

Sincerely,

Marie

Mom to e, age 7. Recently diagnosed moderate apraxia. Private evaluation

and beginning therapy day after tomorrow.

lbwheaton <lchase@...> wrote: Vera,

It IS a make-or-break issue for most of our kids when dealing with

standardized tests. If the child doesn't get the question right,

regardless of their age or the context of their experience, they fail

that question which has an effect on over all score, which leads to

classification of cognitive ability and how the child will be placed

and perceived. In my experience with my son who was misdiagnosed

with PDD due in large part to his responses to these standardized

testing questions, if the child doesn't fit inside " the box " of these

tests, the examiners refuse to think outside of it as they must take

a " right or wrong " answer by testing standards. Examiners may know

there is lots of room for recognition of life experiences, however,

the test scores will not reflect this as they must mark the question

as right or wrong depending on what the test is looking for as a

concrete answer.

[Guest guest]

Hi Marie,

Just responding, and not offended by your posting (I hope I don't

come off as sounding like I'm jumping down your throat).

My problem is with standardized testing of any kind. It's difficult

to allow for children's experiences or even if they are having a bad

day because standardized testing is looking for a particular answer,

and if the child doesn't give it for whatever the reason, they fail

that portion of the testing. I'm not putting down the evaluators in

this respect, as they are simply adminstering the test that doesn't

allow for any circumstances to be factored in.

For example. In one of the standardized tests that my son went

through which contributed to the autism MISdiagnosis (I stress

the " MIS " since it has since been removed), there was a section that

tested " imaginative play " . The evaluator placed a bunch of dolls

around a clay ball, asked him to pretend it was a birthday cake, and

to act out a birthday party. My son had never been to a birthday

party at 2.6, so looked at her like she was nuts and didn't know what

to do. This was what the test called for. When I provided the

evaluator with other examples of how he was capable of imaginative

play, they couldn't be applied because the test called for this

scenario to be used. He failed this section and was deemed incapable

of imaginative play. In this instance, my son's experiences didn't

fit the " box " provided. Rather than bend the box to accomodate his

experience level, they prefer to bend the kid and say he is not

fitting the norm.

In the example that had used, it was the same thing. She knew

her child was cognitively aware of what a train was, however, because

of the standardized test picture provided which was outside of the

realm of his experience, he failed that portion therefore not

accurately portraying his cognitive level.

So... back to my point that sometimes standardized testing IS a make

or break issue since the results don't always accurately portray what

is really going on with our kids, and can sometimes even be harmful

to their placement and how they are perceived. When someone who

looks at the test scores and doesn't know the back story, assumptions

will be made that are not necessarily the case based on the scores.

Does that make any sense?

Vera,

>

> It IS a make-or-break issue for most of our kids when dealing with

> standardized tests. If the child doesn't get the question right,

> regardless of their age or the context of their experience, they

fail

> that question which has an effect on over all score, which leads to

> classification of cognitive ability and how the child will be

placed

> and perceived. In my experience with my son who was misdiagnosed

> with PDD due in large part to his responses to these standardized

> testing questions, if the child doesn't fit inside " the box " of

these

> tests, the examiners refuse to think outside of it as they must

take

> a " right or wrong " answer by testing standards. Examiners may know

> there is lots of room for recognition of life experiences, however,

> the test scores will not reflect this as they must mark the

question

> as right or wrong depending on what the test is looking for as a

> concrete answer.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I remember the rotary dial telephone in the testing pictures. Whay a joke. If

you believe your child is there cognitively, I'm sure he/she is. Please take

some of the testing with a grain of salt. I remember my guy resisting the IQ

test at 4 and he measured NO IQ. Kaufman's pictures tend to be more

relevant. Sandy

Mom of Stefan.8 yr. old apraxic among a combination of soft neurological

issues.

[Guest guest]

Hi ...assuming that the examiner(s) of your child were speech

pathologists trained at a reputable institution of higher learning, all

other things being equal they are taught to not just deliver standard

scores, but to interpret the tests they've administered. A speech

pathologist might say in a report, for example, that " the items missed were

judged not to have occurred in this child's environment " and that

interpretation is a factor that has to be considered in the final

recommendation. Or, " the items missed were those that the parent stated were

not a part of the child's environment. " Your words should be taken

seriously.

So it won't change the standard score, but it should have an effect on the

recommendation. If you get less than a thoughtful interpretation of test

findings, you need to get a second opinion.

That's why I said the train or bone pics were not make-or-break issues.

Vera

> Vera,

>

> It IS a make-or-break issue for most of our kids when dealing with

> standardized tests. If the child doesn't get the question right,

> regardless of their age or the context of their experience, they fail

> that question which has an effect on over all score, which leads to

> classification of cognitive ability and how the child will be placed

> and perceived. In my experience with my son who was misdiagnosed

> with PDD due in large part to his responses to these standardized

> testing questions, if the child doesn't fit inside " the box " of these

> tests, the examiners refuse to think outside of it as they must take

> a " right or wrong " answer by testing standards. Examiners may know

> there is lots of room for recognition of life experiences, however,

> the test scores will not reflect this as they must mark the question

> as right or wrong depending on what the test is looking for as a

> concrete answer.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Vera -

Actually, I have to agree with that his eval. was make or break to

me. At 2 1/2 years old, it put his receptive level at about 17 months and

that was just very incorrect. You mentioned that the examiner is aware of

this but when I brought this to her attention, she told me basically that

this was the test and not to worry so much about his score, they were just

trying to get an idea of what he understood. As many of you know, after

they " fail " 3 or 4 questions in a row, the test is stopped even though they

may very well know other things ahead in the test. I explained to her that

my son had never been on an Amtrak train or seen a white human looking bone

given to a dog but still, he did fail those questions. When it came time

for my IEP and finding a school for my son to attend, his cognitive level

was of concern to them. I had to have very long conversations with examples

of my dissatisfaction with the pictures to " assure " them that my son was

indeed higher. They wound up conducting their own evaluations of him which

were different from the first and did see that it was an inaccurate

assessment of him. So for us, it was quite an issue to have him rated so

low due to those old fashioned out of date pictures. His out of district

school does not have a wide array of disabilities including cognitive level

issues, they are mainly hearing impaired or Apraxic so they hesitated at the

fact that he may have been so low.

in NJ

KDR@...

[Guest guest]

I actually found the bits on the tests very entertaining last night -

Honestly, though, I don't see how a gun is a " tool " ... maybe a knife, an axe

- the fireman thing is a bit far-fetched, Wiley's Little People fireman does

not carry an axe, after all -- but a gun? What kind of a tool is a gun

outside of killing exactly? To signal race cars to race? Get swimmers out

of the ocean when there's a shark sighting?

I agree that the tests need serious updating. Appalling, really.

Betsy

_________________________________________________________________

Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Betsy, a gun is a tool, whether you agree or not. This country survived well

because of the use of that tool for food and clothing. just as the natives

before us relied on the tools of bow and arrow. Hunters continue to use a

gun as a tool. A tool is not necessarily something you wield, like a knife,

in order to make it operable.

The mothers on this list seem like a bright bunch who are capable of

explaining all the different uses of such items without making their kids

violent or frightened.

I'd have to assume that the reason the toy fireman has no gun is because

it's not typically used on his job. However, you've named a couple of neat

uses for guns that I hadn't thought about, so now you can broaden your

child's information base, too.

Vera

> I actually found the bits on the tests very entertaining last night -

> Honestly, though, I don't see how a gun is a " tool " ... maybe a knife, an axe

> - the fireman thing is a bit far-fetched, Wiley's Little People fireman does

> not carry an axe, after all -- but a gun? What kind of a tool is a gun

> outside of killing exactly? To signal race cars to race? Get swimmers out

> of the ocean when there's a shark sighting?

>

> I agree that the tests need serious updating. Appalling, really.

>

> Betsy

>

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Karyn " <klmitch@c...>

wrote:

> Hi listmates -

>

> I have been supplementing my daughter with tons of things since

10-02. At that time we had blood serum test drawn for metals.

blood tests for metals generally measure recent/current

exposure. don't go by this to decide if there is a problem.

it may be falsely negative.

> What I'm

wondering now, is if there is a test of some sort that will measure

her levels of elements, vitamins, etc. to see where she is and if I

need to continue supplementing certain things.

I think there are tests practitioners use for this but I have

to say that I don't know much about the options or which one(s)

really are useful.

Moria

[Guest guest]

I found that out after I did the blood test. Should I do the hair test now? Will

I have to pull her off the supps to do this?

Karyn

[ ] Re: testing

> Hi listmates -

>

> I have been supplementing my daughter with tons of things since

10-02. At that time we had blood serum test drawn for metals.

blood tests for metals generally measure recent/current

exposure. don't go by this to decide if there is a problem.

it may be falsely negative.

> What I'm

wondering now, is if there is a test of some sort that will measure

her levels of elements, vitamins, etc. to see where she is and if I

need to continue supplementing certain things.

I think there are tests practitioners use for this but I have

to say that I don't know much about the options or which one(s)

really are useful.

Moria

[Guest guest]

> > Hi listmates -

> >

> > I have been supplementing my daughter with tons of things since

> 10-02. At that time we had blood serum test drawn for metals.

>

> blood tests for metals generally measure recent/current

> exposure. don't go by this to decide if there is a problem.

> it may be falsely negative.

>

>

> > What I'm

> wondering now, is if there is a test of some sort that will measure

> her levels of elements, vitamins, etc. to see where she is and if I

> need to continue supplementing certain things.

>

> I think there are tests practitioners use for this but I have

> to say that I don't know much about the options or which one(s)

> really are useful.

>

> Moria

[Guest guest]

Actually I am chelating her. I was just wondering if there was some way of

finding out that certain things may or may not need to be supplemented anymore.

Since I'm pretty much just going with the flow and things. I'm gonna guess that

the hair test is not a good idea right now. I have the ability to use DMSA and

ALA so I guess I'll just watch for things to start happening for her.

Any other suggestions?

Karyn

[ ] Re: testing

> > Hi listmates -

> >

> > I have been supplementing my daughter with tons of things since

> 10-02. At that time we had blood serum test drawn for metals.

>

> blood tests for metals generally measure recent/current

> exposure. don't go by this to decide if there is a problem.

> it may be falsely negative.

>

>

> > What I'm

> wondering now, is if there is a test of some sort that will measure

> her levels of elements, vitamins, etc. to see where she is and if I

> need to continue supplementing certain things.

>

> I think there are tests practitioners use for this but I have

> to say that I don't know much about the options or which one(s)

> really are useful.

>

> Moria

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Karyn " <klmitch@c...>

wrote:

> Actually I am chelating her.

okay. let me be more specific: if you are chelating her, then

her mineral transport problems (if she had them) might have

corrected. This would mean that using the counting rules to

look for mercury MIGHT give you a false negative. (might show

she is not merc toxic when she is). However, the hair test

can ALSO tell you if she has OTHER toxic metals, or high

copper WHICH CAN BE CRITICALLY USEFUL in some cases, but

not in all.

I do realize you were looking for help about supplements

and nutrition, which I have not provided.

Moria

I was just wondering if there was some way of finding out that certain

things may or may not need to be supplemented anymore. Since I'm

pretty much just going with the flow and things. I'm gonna guess that

the hair test is not a good idea right now. I have the ability to use

DMSA and ALA so I guess I'll just watch for things to start happening

for her.

> Any other suggestions?

> Karyn

[Guest guest]

[ ] Re: testing

> Actually I am chelating her.

okay. let me be more specific: if you are chelating her, then

her mineral transport problems (if she had them) might have

corrected. This would mean that using the counting rules to

look for mercury MIGHT give you a false negative. (might show

she is not merc toxic when she is). However, the hair test

can ALSO tell you if she has OTHER toxic metals, or high

copper WHICH CAN BE CRITICALLY USEFUL in some cases, but

not in all.

I do realize you were looking for help about supplements

and nutrition, which I have not provided.

Only to see if I could stop shoving 1/2 the pills down her, but I guess that's

somewhat out of the question. To do the hair test would more of a pain in the

butt than to keep going and guessing - or not?

Karyn

Moria

I was just wondering if there was some way of finding out that certain

things may or may not need to be supplemented anymore. Since I'm

pretty much just going with the flow and things. I'm gonna guess that

the hair test is not a good idea right now. I have the ability to use

DMSA and ALA so I guess I'll just watch for things to start happening

for her.

> Any other suggestions?

> Karyn

[Guest guest]

Call Direct Lab Services at 1-800-908-0000 and they will be able to help

you get the tests you need.

[ ] Testing

For those of you following Andy's protocol, how do you get testing done?

I emailed DD lab and they need a doc's permission. I do not have docs

who cooperate. We live in Eastern NC.