Re: Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for mold?

[Guest guest]

The problem is finding someone to do that testing. I am acutely aware, thanks to

your info, that bacteria can be a problem. My husband sanitizes all bathroom

surfaces once weekly. But who do you contact for testing of bacteria???

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 14, 2010, at 11:44 AM, " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

It is possible for them to show up on wall surfaces. Many of the bacterial vocs

are alcohols, aldehydes and esters. These can form bonds with molecules present

in dust and on the walls. The problem is no one is paying any attention to the

subject of bacteria,. including this forum.

I just did a home here in Sacramento. The flooring, walls and kitchen cabinets

contained high levels of Gram negative bacteria of which two are pathogenic to

humans and animals, while a third is considered opportunistic pathogen. The

family of four all have serious diarrhea as well as poor health. I have done

other homes where Gram negative and positive bacteria were very abundant in

addition to the molds. The testing was done by Q-tip swab samples. The bacteria

range in the millions per swab. Also, endotoxins are present at very high

concentrations. Now you tell me, is the illness caused by the mold or the

bacteria or a combination? I favor a combination.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

The industrial hygienist that you engage. You must request the testing yourself

or the hygienist will not perform it. EMSL does bacterial culturing.

Re: [] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for

mold?

The problem is finding someone to do that testing. I am acutely aware, thanks

to your info, that bacteria can be a problem. My husband sanitizes all bathroom

surfaces once weekly. But who do you contact for testing of bacteria???

Sent from my iPhone

[Guest guest]

Regular cleaning for routine situations should remove any

bacteria and combinations. Keep it clean. Testing isn't always

necessary just as we don't need to get a lab test to determine if

we need to wash our hands. Unless you have a legal situation, of

course.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

The problem is finding someone to do that testing. I am acutely aware,

thanks to your info, that bacteria can be a problem. My husband

sanitizes all bathroom surfaces once weekly. But who do you contact for

testing of bacteria???

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 14, 2010, at 11:44 AM, " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. "

<toxicologist1@...> wrote:

It is possible for them to show up on wall surfaces. Many of the bacterial

vocs are alcohols, aldehydes and esters. These can form bonds with

molecules present in dust and on the walls. The problem is no one is

paying any attention to the subject of bacteria,. including this forum.

I just did a home here in Sacramento. The flooring, walls and kitchen

cabinets contained high levels of Gram negative bacteria of which two

are pathogenic to humans and animals, while a third is considered

opportunistic pathogen. The family of four all have serious diarrhea as

well as poor health. I have done other homes where Gram negative and

positive bacteria were very abundant in addition to the molds. The

testing was done by Q-tip swab samples. The bacteria range in the

millions per swab. Also, endotoxins are present at very high

concentrations. Now you tell me, is the illness caused by the mold or the

bacteria or a combination? I favor a combination.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is

strictly prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended

purpose of this message has been served, please destroy the original

message contents. If you have received this message in error, please

reply immediately to advise the sender of the miscommunication and

then delete the message and any copies you have printed. Thank you in

advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

Carl: I totally disagree with you. The contamination needs to be defined

beyond molds and mycotoxins. Remember our POA paper.

Re: [] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for

mold?

Regular cleaning for routine situations should remove any

bacteria and combinations. Keep it clean. Testing isn't always

necessary just as we don't need to get a lab test to determine if

we need to wash our hands. Unless you have a legal situation, of

course.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

The problem is finding someone to do that testing. I am acutely aware,

thanks to your info, that bacteria can be a problem. My husband

sanitizes all bathroom surfaces once weekly. But who do you contact for

testing of bacteria???

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 14, 2010, at 11:44 AM, " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. "

<toxicologist1@...> wrote:

It is possible for them to show up on wall surfaces. Many of the bacterial

vocs are alcohols, aldehydes and esters. These can form bonds with

molecules present in dust and on the walls. The problem is no one is

paying any attention to the subject of bacteria,. including this forum.

I just did a home here in Sacramento. The flooring, walls and kitchen

cabinets contained high levels of Gram negative bacteria of which two

are pathogenic to humans and animals, while a third is considered

opportunistic pathogen. The family of four all have serious diarrhea as

well as poor health. I have done other homes where Gram negative and

positive bacteria were very abundant in addition to the molds. The

testing was done by Q-tip swab samples. The bacteria range in the

millions per swab. Also, endotoxins are present at very high

concentrations. Now you tell me, is the illness caused by the mold or the

bacteria or a combination? I favor a combination.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is

strictly prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended

purpose of this message has been served, please destroy the original

message contents. If you have received this message in error, please

reply immediately to advise the sender of the miscommunication and

then delete the message and any copies you have printed. Thank you in

advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

Free radicals which have a negative oxygen atom bind to chemicals that have a

positive atom. This is just simple chemistry a + and - attract each other.

[] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for mold?

How do they form bonds with molecules on walls? Are these superficial

molecules or part of the wall composition.

Is the bond so strong you have to tear down the walls or does this stuff die

(is moisture allowing continued growth?) and then what happens to the

endotoxins? Do they " die off " or continue on?

Can you smell the VOCs? Could this be what happens when moisture builds up in

a basement and the mildewy smell appears but no visual evidence of mold?

Thank you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

I flooded 2 times in a solid concrete home with poured cement roof and the

places I saw mold growth were the wood doors.  After the flood everything was

cleaned and disinfected.  The place air out........never saw growth on any

walls.  One we stood in water for hours  (6) or so before it went

down.  It did

smell horrible (the water) .

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: cocopollyphenol <cocopollyphenol@...>

Sent: Thu, October 14, 2010 10:59:13 AM

Subject: [] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for mold?

 

Dr. Thrasher & Carl--in terms of bacterial vocs, which I know are too often

overlooked, would that show up on wall surfaces?

[Guest guest]

I agree that it's more than molds and mycotoxins which is why I included

bacteria, for example.

But you and I are also talking about two very different situations. I agree

with your methods for a forensic investigation for medical or legal purposes.

But for routine everyday matters of taking care of ourselves the testing is

rarely needed and the practical sanitation of clean and dry solves most problems

and will prevent the others.

I have a situation now where the client is struggling with deciding whether to

spend $2000+ on testing so they'll know what caused the problem plus another

$2500 to fix it. Or just the $2500 to fix it and not know for sure which

organism or emanation was at fault.

If claims of liability or medical necessity are not involved then extensive,

definitive testing only serves to satisfy our curiosity and calm our fears of

the unknown. Not that these aren't important but how much are each of us willing

and able to pay for something that rarely contributes to an improvement or

solution?

Often the need to act supplants the need to know and that results in some very

difficult decisions.

Two different sets of needs can lead to two different responses.

BTW, Dr Thrasher, I like how our friendship doesn't stop us from challenging and

correcting each other.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

Re: [] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for mold?

Carl: I totally disagree with you. The contamination needs to be defined

beyond molds and mycotoxins. Remember our POA paper.

Re: [] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for

mold?

Regular cleaning for routine situations should remove any

bacteria and combinations. Keep it clean. Testing isn't always

necessary just as we don't need to get a lab test to determine if

we need to wash our hands. Unless you have a legal situation, of

course.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

The problem is finding someone to do that testing. I am acutely aware,

thanks to your info, that bacteria can be a problem. My husband

sanitizes all bathroom surfaces once weekly. But who do you contact for

testing of bacteria???

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 14, 2010, at 11:44 AM, " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. "

<toxicologist1@...> wrote:

It is possible for them to show up on wall surfaces. Many of the bacterial

vocs are alcohols, aldehydes and esters. These can form bonds with

molecules present in dust and on the walls. The problem is no one is

paying any attention to the subject of bacteria,. including this forum.

I just did a home here in Sacramento. The flooring, walls and kitchen

cabinets contained high levels of Gram negative bacteria of which two

are pathogenic to humans and animals, while a third is considered

opportunistic pathogen. The family of four all have serious diarrhea as

well as poor health. I have done other homes where Gram negative and

positive bacteria were very abundant in addition to the molds. The

testing was done by Q-tip swab samples. The bacteria range in the

millions per swab. Also, endotoxins are present at very high

concentrations. Now you tell me, is the illness caused by the mold or the

bacteria or a combination? I favor a combination.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is

strictly prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended

purpose of this message has been served, please destroy the original

message contents. If you have received this message in error, please

reply immediately to advise the sender of the miscommunication and

then delete the message and any copies you have printed. Thank you in

advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

IN our case, house toxicology matched what was in our bodies, so kind of

verified the bodily testing, and this was important because of mold

skepticism on the part of certain family members and doctors---but it

hasn't really led to any " ah-hahs " that changed therapeutic protocols or

has led to health improvements, so that is disappointing. Maybe the

most important thing it did was finally convince the skeptical side of

the family to get out of the house before someone else possibly fell

sick. But, the remediation costs could well be staggering, could end up

costing $50K or more, we shall see, it's opening up a Pandora's box in

that way, and the sad thing is that our house doesn't have worse

problems than a lot of old houses in our city, but now that we know

them, we have to fix them to rent it out or disclose them to sell, and

all at a time when we also have staggering medical costs, etc..

That's my 2 cents.

sue v.

>I agree that it's more than molds and mycotoxins which is why I included

>bacteria, for example.

>

> But you and I are also talking about two very different situations. I

>agree with your methods for a forensic investigation for medical or

>legal purposes. But for routine everyday matters of taking care of

>ourselves the testing is rarely needed and the practical sanitation of

>clean and dry solves most problems and will prevent the others.

>

>I have a situation now where the client is struggling with deciding

>whether to spend $2000+ on testing so they'll know what caused the

>problem plus another $2500 to fix it. Or just the $2500 to fix it and

>not know for sure which organism or emanation was at fault.

>

>If claims of liability or medical necessity are not involved then

>extensive, definitive testing only serves to satisfy our curiosity and

>calm our fears of the unknown. Not that these aren't important but how

>much are each of us willing and able to pay for something that rarely

>contributes to an improvement or solution?

>

>

[Guest guest]

If your client does not have significant medical problems, then I agree.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

Sue,

You have addressed an additional reason for an indepth

investigation with may included extensive sampling: Convincing

the skeptics, whether family or otherwise. Assuming they accept

the evidence. If they consult the " professional " skeptics (aka

NaySayers) they will argue that yes there was mold and bacteria

and yes there were mycotoxins/endotoxins etc in the body but

they will then protest with " show me the proof " that is what

causes your illness. Again, a very difficult situation with no clear-

cut answers.

Some of which comes back to a previous question I asked last

month: " Who do you believe? And why? " And now I'll ask a

similar but different question: " Who do you listen to? "

Believers have their trusted sources and NaySayers have theirs.

So far the true experts cannot sufficiently answer the questions to

settle the disputes.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

IN our case, house toxicology matched what was in our bodies, so kind of

verified the bodily testing, and this was important because of mold

skepticism on the part of certain family members and doctors---but it

hasn't really led to any " ah-hahs " that changed therapeutic protocols or

has led to health improvements, so that is disappointing. Maybe the

most important thing it did was finally convince the skeptical side of

the family to get out of the house before someone else possibly fell

sick. But, the remediation costs could well be staggering, could end up

costing $50K or more, we shall see, it's opening up a Pandora's box in

that way, and the sad thing is that our house doesn't have worse

problems than a lot of old houses in our city, but now that we know

them, we have to fix them to rent it out or disclose them to sell, and

all at a time when we also have staggering medical costs, etc..

That's my 2 cents.

sue v.

>I agree that it's more than molds and mycotoxins which is why I

included

>bacteria, for example.

>

> But you and I are also talking about two very different situations. I

>agree with your methods for a forensic investigation for medical or

>legal purposes. But for routine everyday matters of taking care of

>ourselves the testing is rarely needed and the practical sanitation of

>clean and dry solves most problems and will prevent the others.

>

>I have a situation now where the client is struggling with deciding

>whether to spend $2000+ on testing so they'll know what caused the

>problem plus another $2500 to fix it. Or just the $2500 to fix it and

>not know for sure which organism or emanation was at fault.

>

>If claims of liability or medical necessity are not involved then

>extensive, definitive testing only serves to satisfy our curiosity and

>calm our fears of the unknown. Not that these aren't important but how

>much are each of us willing and able to pay for something that rarely

>contributes to an improvement or solution?

>

>

----------

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If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,

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Date: 16 Jun 2009, 0:10

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[Guest guest]

yes, and when you add the house toxicology results to the realtime labs

body results, and the two match, I think even a skeptic has to take it a

little more seriously than just the one or the other... sue v.

>It makes sense that our condition would match an environment that we

>spend most of our time in.

>

>>

>> IN our case, house toxicology matched what was in our bodies, so kind of

>> verified the bodily testing,

>

[Guest guest]

If course Carl you can always find the Skeptic to end all skeptics who

will never believe anybody no matter what, all I am saying is that the

person I wanted to convince to " get the hell out of that house " (my

husband) along with my 14 yo was more convinced by the combination of

realtime labs mycotoxins in all of our urines + the same mycotoxins and

molds that produce those mycotoxins in the house, then layer on the

salmonella found in the house and then in my sick son's stool...it all

did the trick, we are out of the house, except for returning to clear it

out, fix it up, etc...

No proof that these things cause my son's illness and he hasn't

magically gotten better since leaving the house, BUT I am very convinced

that mold is one of multiple factors and it is good to minimize

exposure, especially to our old house's particular mold cocktail...

Another thing that makes people skeptical of course is that it doesn't

obviously sicken everyone. Not at all like a head cold that runs thru

the entire family, that makes it less easy to accept the idea that mold

is making my sick son sick, I get the question ALL THE TIME, if it was

the moldy house wouldn't you all have gotten sick?

Another skeptic was my son's local doctor, he wasn't convinced the

realtime labs test was valid, I was less interested in convincing him

than convincing my husband, but still that was an added bonus to show

him how it all fit together, and also that both drs gray and rea use the

realtime labs tests.

sue

>Sue,

>

>You have addressed an additional reason for an indepth

>investigation with may included extensive sampling: Convincing

>the skeptics, whether family or otherwise. Assuming they accept

>the evidence. If they consult the " professional " skeptics (aka

>NaySayers) they will argue that yes there was mold and bacteria

>and yes there were mycotoxins/endotoxins etc in the body but

>they will then protest with " show me the proof " that is what

>causes your illness. Again, a very difficult situation with no clear-

>cut answers.

>

>Some of which comes back to a previous question I asked last

>month: " Who do you believe? And why? " And now I'll ask a

>similar but different question: " Who do you listen to? "

>

>Believers have their trusted sources and NaySayers have theirs.

>So far the true experts cannot sufficiently answer the questions to

>settle the disputes.

>

>Carl Grimes

>Healthy Habitats LLC

>

>-----

>IN our case, house toxicology matched what was in our bodies, so kind of

>verified the bodily testing, and this was important because of mold

[Guest guest]

Yes, that is much stronger evidence and harder to refute.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

yes, and when you add the house toxicology results to the realtime labs

body results, and the two match, I think even a skeptic has to take it a

little more seriously than just the one or the other... sue v.

>It makes sense that our condition would match an environment that we

>spend most of our time in.

>

>>

>> IN our case, house toxicology matched what was in our bodies, so

kind of

>> verified the bodily testing,

>

----------

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If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,

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[Guest guest]

Correct. However let me tell you a story of comments from defense experts in a

case with Hooper's findings.

The patient died, autopsy specimens were obtained at 48 hours post mortem. The

body had been refrigerated. PCR DNA revealed species of Aspergillus in the

Brain, lungs and liver along with aflatoxins.

The defense experts stated that these findings are expected because Aspergillus

is in the environment and you should expect to find it in the tissues.

This is like saying Salmonella, Typhus, MRSA, Mycobacterium tuberculin, etc are

found in the environment and you would expect to isolate them from the body of

person who died from the infections.

Please explain to me how the Aspergillus reached the brain?

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

Sue,

You makes several excellent points.

As for the objection that " Not at all like a head cold that runs thru

the entire family, that makes it less easy to accept the idea that

mold is making my sick son sick, "

Consider that during the worst of flu season not everyone gets

the flu. In fact most don't. In cases of food poisoning at large

gatherings not all get sick and fewer need hospitalization. Years

ago 3000 people at the AF academy were sickened by chicken

salad at a picnic event. 1100 reported being ill and 250 were

hospitalized. Horrible numbers and bad for those affected but

only agout 1/3 were affected and less than 1/10 needed medical

care.

It is a gross misconception that all exposed people are affected

by the same events. There is huge variability. Just consider the

Bell curve. It is bell shaped for that very reason. If all reacted at

the same time it would not be a Bell shaped curve but a straight

vertical line.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

If course Carl you can always find the Skeptic to end all skeptics who

will never believe anybody no matter what, all I am saying is that the

person I wanted to convince to " get the hell out of that house " (my

husband) along with my 14 yo was more convinced by the combination

of

realtime labs mycotoxins in all of our urines + the same mycotoxins and

molds that produce those mycotoxins in the house, then layer on the

salmonella found in the house and then in my sick son's stool...it all

did the trick, we are out of the house, except for returning to clear it

out, fix it up, etc...

No proof that these things cause my son's illness and he hasn't

magically gotten better since leaving the house, BUT I am very convinced

that mold is one of multiple factors and it is good to minimize

exposure, especially to our old house's particular mold cocktail...

Another thing that makes people skeptical of course is that it doesn't

obviously sicken everyone. Not at all like a head cold that runs thru

the entire family, that makes it less easy to accept the idea that mold

is making my sick son sick, I get the question ALL THE TIME, if it was

the moldy house wouldn't you all have gotten sick?

Another skeptic was my son's local doctor, he wasn't convinced the

realtime labs test was valid, I was less interested in convincing him

than convincing my husband, but still that was an added bonus to show

him how it all fit together, and also that both drs gray and rea use the

realtime labs tests.

sue

>Sue,

>

>You have addressed an additional reason for an indepth

>investigation with may included extensive sampling: Convincing

>the skeptics, whether family or otherwise. Assuming they accept

>the evidence. If they consult the " professional " skeptics (aka

>NaySayers) they will argue that yes there was mold and bacteria

>and yes there were mycotoxins/endotoxins etc in the body but

>they will then protest with " show me the proof " that is what

>causes your illness. Again, a very difficult situation with no clear-

>cut answers.

>

>Some of which comes back to a previous question I asked last

>month: " Who do you believe? And why? " And now I'll ask a

>similar but different question: " Who do you listen to? "

>

>Believers have their trusted sources and NaySayers have theirs.

>So far the true experts cannot sufficiently answer the questions to

>settle the disputes.

>

>Carl Grimes

>Healthy Habitats LLC

>

>-----

>IN our case, house toxicology matched what was in our bodies, so kind

of

>verified the bodily testing, and this was important because of mold

----------

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[Guest guest]

Jack,

You write, " Please explain to me how the Aspergillus reached the brain " .

I think I might know what case this is. If I am correct, I think more

appropriate questions would be:

1. How did the defense expert morph into a medico-toxicologist from an

immunologist who has only published two papers on the subject of mold that have

both been widely discredited?; and

2. Why is he still using university letterhead, interstate, when the

money he generates now only benefits him personally when serving the interest

of another state health department and their insurer?; and

3. Why is the university whose letterhead he is using allowing this to

continue?; and

4. Could it be because they are generating beaucoup income off of other

university employees who are using the same schtick when serving as mold

defense experts? "

There is your answer. Its not the explaining of how the Aspergillus

reached the brain; its the explaining of why a mold defensor would write such

nonsense. Financial driven conflicts of interest used to sell doubt of

causation is the answer to your question.

Now here is my question: How did Aspergillus non-science reach the brain

of our country, and why is it permitted to remain while adversely effecting

the health of our country's heart and soul?

Sharon

In a message dated 10/15/2010 11:46:03 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

toxicologist1@... writes:

Correct. However let me tell you a story of comments from defense experts

in a case with Hooper's findings.

The patient died, autopsy specimens were obtained at 48 hours post mortem.

The body had been refrigerated. PCR DNA revealed species of Aspergillus in

the Brain, lungs and liver along with aflatoxins.

The defense experts stated that these findings are expected because

Aspergillus is in the environment and you should expect to find it in the

tissues.

This is like saying Salmonella, Typhus, MRSA, Mycobacterium tuberculin,

etc are found in the environment and you would expect to isolate them from

the body of person who died from the infections.

Please explain to me how the Aspergillus reached the brain?

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

_toxicologist1@..._ (mailto:toxicologist1@...)

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

_sandracrawley@..._ (mailto:sandracrawley@...)

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

Sharon Noonan Kramer

[Guest guest]

ack you wrote:

" It is not only the defense experts it is also the medical community at

large "

This is because the defense experts are not stupid. Nor are the risk

managers who track trends who work with them. He who controls medicine in

established health policies that are used to control the medical community;

controls the game in court.

Sharon

In a message dated 10/16/2010 12:00:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

toxicologist1@... writes:

Yes, you know this case. I was just trying to make some points in a kind

retort to Carl Grimes.

Mike Gray and I have another case. Sphenoid sinus mass that was biopsied 6

times with 3-4 different diagnoses for a malignant tumor. The husband is a

Ph.D. microbiologist who looked at the pathology slides and said " I see

fungal hyphae " and then informed the pathologists. The pathologists said " No

way " . They treated the woman with radiation and chemotherapy, she did not

improve and actually got worse. She came to , biopsy material grew out

Aspergillus, and antifungal treatment solved the problem She is doing well

today, but is partially blind because of the radiation treatment that

affected the optic nerve.

It is not only the defense experts it is also the medical community at

large.

----- Original Message -----

From: _snk1955@..._ (mailto:snk1955@...)

_ _ (mailto: )

Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 10:46 AM

Subject: Re: [] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for

mold?

Jack,

You write, " Please explain to me how the Aspergillus reached the brain " .

I think I might know what case this is. If I am correct, I think more

appropriate questions would be:

1. How did the defense expert morph into a medico-toxicologist from an

immunologist who has only published two papers on the subject of mold that

have

both been widely discredited?; and

2. Why is he still using university letterhead, interstate, when the

money he generates now only benefits him personally when serving the

interest

of another state health department and their insurer?; and

3. Why is the university whose letterhead he is using allowing this to

continue?; and

4. Could it be because they are generating beaucoup income off of other

university employees who are using the same schtick when serving as mold

defense experts? "

There is your answer. Its not the explaining of how the Aspergillus

reached the brain; its the explaining of why a mold defensor would write

such

nonsense. Financial driven conflicts of interest used to sell doubt of

causation is the answer to your question.

Now here is my question: How did Aspergillus non-science reach the brain

of our country, and why is it permitted to remain while adversely

effecting

the health of our country's heart and soul?

Sharon

[Guest guest]

Yes, you know this case. I was just trying to make some points in a kind retort

to Carl Grimes.

Mike Gray and I have another case. Sphenoid sinus mass that was biopsied 6

times with 3-4 different diagnoses for a malignant tumor. The husband is a

Ph.D. microbiologist who looked at the pathology slides and said " I see fungal

hyphae " and then informed the pathologists. The pathologists said " No way " .

They treated the woman with radiation and chemotherapy, she did not improve and

actually got worse. She came to , biopsy material grew out Aspergillus, and

antifungal treatment solved the problem She is doing well today, but is

partially blind because of the radiation treatment that affected the optic

nerve.

It is not only the defense experts it is also the medical community at large.

Re: [] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for

mold?

Jack,

You write, " Please explain to me how the Aspergillus reached the brain " .

I think I might know what case this is. If I am correct, I think more

appropriate questions would be:

1. How did the defense expert morph into a medico-toxicologist from an

immunologist who has only published two papers on the subject of mold that

have

both been widely discredited?; and

2. Why is he still using university letterhead, interstate, when the

money he generates now only benefits him personally when serving the interest

of another state health department and their insurer?; and

3. Why is the university whose letterhead he is using allowing this to

continue?; and

4. Could it be because they are generating beaucoup income off of other

university employees who are using the same schtick when serving as mold

defense experts? "

There is your answer. Its not the explaining of how the Aspergillus

reached the brain; its the explaining of why a mold defensor would write such

nonsense. Financial driven conflicts of interest used to sell doubt of

causation is the answer to your question.

Now here is my question: How did Aspergillus non-science reach the brain

of our country, and why is it permitted to remain while adversely effecting

the health of our country's heart and soul?

Sharon

In a message dated 10/15/2010 11:46:03 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

toxicologist1@... writes:

Correct. However let me tell you a story of comments from defense experts

in a case with Hooper's findings.

The patient died, autopsy specimens were obtained at 48 hours post mortem.

The body had been refrigerated. PCR DNA revealed species of Aspergillus in

the Brain, lungs and liver along with aflatoxins.

The defense experts stated that these findings are expected because

Aspergillus is in the environment and you should expect to find it in the

tissues.

[Guest guest]

Sharon: I agree. I have only made statements that show the readers that it

comes from both sides. The IMF controls the World. It is time the readers of

this forum awaken.

Re: [] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for

mold?

Jack,

You write, " Please explain to me how the Aspergillus reached the brain " .

I think I might know what case this is. If I am correct, I think more

appropriate questions would be:

1. How did the defense expert morph into a medico-toxicologist from an

immunologist who has only published two papers on the subject of mold that

have

both been widely discredited?; and

2. Why is he still using university letterhead, interstate, when the

money he generates now only benefits him personally when serving the

interest

of another state health department and their insurer?; and

3. Why is the university whose letterhead he is using allowing this to

continue?; and

4. Could it be because they are generating beaucoup income off of other

university employees who are using the same schtick when serving as mold

defense experts? "

There is your answer. Its not the explaining of how the Aspergillus

reached the brain; its the explaining of why a mold defensor would write

such

nonsense. Financial driven conflicts of interest used to sell doubt of

causation is the answer to your question.

Now here is my question: How did Aspergillus non-science reach the brain

of our country, and why is it permitted to remain while adversely

effecting

the health of our country's heart and soul?

Sharon

[Guest guest]

Have we not awoken? Everyday, we live the facts and we are outsiders to a

society that is blind to them. So now what? Many of us have been financially,

physically, and emotionally devestated. We are nothing if not awoken, yes?

On Oct 16, 2010, at 5:07 PM, " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

Sharon: I agree. I have only made statements that show the readers that it comes

from both sides. The IMF controls the World. It is time the readers of this

forum awaken.

Re: [] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for mold?

Jack you wrote:

" It is not only the defense experts it is also the medical community at

large "

This is because the defense experts are not stupid. Nor are the risk

managers who track trends who work with them. He who controls medicine in

established health policies that are used to control the medical community;

controls the game in court.

Sharon

[Guest guest]

Carl and Jack,

Three years ago, I would have said that you COULD lump the CDC & EPA into

the same category as ACOEM and the US Chamber. Not all the employees, but

certainly the directive of the upper management. But I do not think that

holds true today.

If anyone was on the CIAQ teleconference webinar last week - they would

have seen a dramatic change. They are moving forward with advancing the

science from many areas over this issue. They are acknowledging that there is

evidence we are experiencing chronic inflammations. They are

acknowledging we are being exposed to multiple contaminants in water damaged

buildings, simultaneously.

I don't think it is so much that the federal employees have changed -

rather that the leadership has changed and the free flowing assault on

government science by industry in various federally agency has become greatly

lessened.

Sharon

[Guest guest]

Robin: I live the night mare of chronic illness on a daily basis in two ways.

(1) Fortunately I only suffer from osteoarthritis. (2) However, I have been

involved as an expert and have published on injury from toxic exposure since

approximately 1985. I have seen much suffering. What I meant with my statement

is that we must all awaken to the fact that the International Monetary Fund does

rule the World. When President Obama received 56 million from a pharmaceutical

company for his campaign, then who do you think he owes is allegiance to?

Certainly not the injured. Worker's Compensation does not take care of the

workers injured by toxic exposures. The insurance companies, ACOEM. CDC, EPA

and other such organizations do not want the chronic illness resulting from WDB

to be exposed. Think about it. The Shoemakers, Grays, Hopes, Reas, etc. are

chastised and called quacks. Why? They speak the truth.

[] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for mold?

yes we are, totally agree AN. we keep getting slapped in the face as well.. Dr

Thrasher, with all due respect, do you live this nighmare? most of us have to be

in the drivers seat to get anything done.. then we keep facing attack from

within. its nuts.

robin

>

> Have we not awoken? Everyday, we live the facts and we are outsiders to a

society that is blind to them. So now what? Many of us have been financially,

physically, and emotionally devestated. We are nothing if not awoken, yes?

>

>

> On Oct 16, 2010, at 5:07 PM, " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> Sharon: I agree. I have only made statements that show the readers that it

comes from both sides. The IMF controls the World. It is time the readers of

this forum awaken.

[Guest guest]

Jack,

Politics are supposed to be off base but since you introduced it and someone

asked and you responded I must state why I disagree.

You cannot generalize about the CDC, EPA, HUD and similar agencies and present

an accurate representation of what people within them are doing and what their

honest intent with consistent actions means. Creating doubt upfront risks

poisoning the good efforts before they can take root.

Despite their continuing faults I would definitely not lump them in with big

pharma, med insurance, ACOEM, and the US Chamber of Commerce.

Once Bush's term was close to its end the mood and energy shifted. Once Obama

was elected the forces of optimism quickly took over. There are many excellent

people working diligently to change the old ways. It's a massive undertaking and

will take much time but there is pressure and success as we speak.

The above named agencies are working to coordinate their mission and specific

actions. They fund the National Center for Healthy Housing www.nchh.org for

example. They were represented by high level administrators at a small regional

conference week before last (120 attendance). They were on a panel together so

they were not speaking behind each others back.

Go to www.healthyhomesconference.org and submit one or more abstracts. The

deadline was just extended to Oct 31. I think a toxicologist's point of view

would be of interest.

As for the IMF that's a topic for another day. There are plenty of other

conspiracies which are less complicated and just as credible. Sorting out that

mess is as complicated as sorting out what is causing our reactions and illness.

I hope the moderators of the group will prevent a political fire fight. It is

disruptive to what this group is about and unnecessarily disturbing to those

we're trying to help.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

Re: [] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for mold?

Robin: I live the night mare of chronic illness on a daily basis in two ways.

(1) Fortunately I only suffer from osteoarthritis. (2) However, I have been

involved as an expert and have published on injury from toxic exposure since

approximately 1985. I have seen much suffering. What I meant with my statement

is that we must all awaken to the fact that the International Monetary Fund does

rule the World. When President Obama received 56 million from a pharmaceutical

company for his campaign, then who do you think he owes is allegiance to?

Certainly not the injured. Worker's Compensation does not take care of the

workers injured by toxic exposures. The insurance companies, ACOEM. CDC, EPA

and other such organizations do not want the chronic illness resulting from WDB

to be exposed. Think about it. The Shoemakers, Grays, Hopes, Reas, etc. are

chastised and called quacks. Why? They speak the truth.

[] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for mold?

yes we are, totally agree AN. we keep getting slapped in the face as well.. Dr

Thrasher, with all due respect, do you live this nighmare? most of us have to be

in the drivers seat to get anything done.. then we keep facing attack from

within. its nuts.

robin

>

> Have we not awoken? Everyday, we live the facts and we are outsiders to a

society that is blind to them. So now what? Many of us have been financially,

physically, and emotionally devestated. We are nothing if not awoken, yes?

>

>

> On Oct 16, 2010, at 5:07 PM, " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> Sharon: I agree. I have only made statements that show the readers that it

comes from both sides. The IMF controls the World. It is time the readers of

this forum awaken.

[Guest guest]

We are all entitled to our opinions. Until I see change in the EPA, CDC, etc. I

will stick to my opinion.

I agree they should be lumped into a different category, however, their

complacency in the issue of WDB is historical information.

Re: [] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for

mold?

Jack,

Politics are supposed to be off base but since you introduced it and someone

asked and you responded I must state why I disagree.

You cannot generalize about the CDC, EPA, HUD and similar agencies and present

an accurate representation of what people within them are doing and what their

honest intent with consistent actions means. Creating doubt upfront risks

poisoning the good efforts before they can take root.

Despite their continuing faults I would definitely not lump them in with big

pharma, med insurance, ACOEM, and the US Chamber of Commerce.

Once Bush's term was close to its end the mood and energy shifted. Once Obama

was elected the forces of optimism quickly took over. There are many excellent

people working diligently to change the old ways. It's a massive undertaking and

will take much time but there is pressure and success as we speak.

[Guest guest]

Robin and All: I just added the below to my web site. Perhaps the information

will help all to understand what is occurring with chronic inflammation.

http://www.drthrasher.org/page167.html

Re: [] Re: How would you test this mcs safe home for

mold?

Robin: I live the night mare of chronic illness on a daily basis in two ways.

(1) Fortunately I only suffer from osteoarthritis. (2) However, I have been

involved as an expert and have published on injury from toxic exposure since

approximately 1985. I have seen much suffering. What I meant with my statement

is that we must all awaken to the fact that the International Monetary Fund does

rule the World. When President Obama received 56 million from a pharmaceutical

company for his campaign, then who do you think he owes is allegiance to?

Certainly not the injured. Worker's Compensation does not take care of the

workers injured by toxic exposures. The insurance companies, ACOEM. CDC, EPA

and other such organizations do not want the chronic illness resulting from WDB

to be exposed. Think about it. The Shoemakers, Grays, Hopes, Reas, etc. are

chastised and called quacks. Why? They speak the truth.