candida diet

[Guest guest]

About 20 sites I think. Use a search engine

Lee

Krein wrote:

> Is there any place on the internet where I can obtain a complete candida

> diet!

>

> thanks

>

>

> ICQ - 53662031

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> Send blank message to candidiasis-unsubscribeonelist if you want to

UNSUBSCRIBE !

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[Guest guest]

Thanks Lee.

I'll do just that!

ICQ - 53662031

AOL Instant Messenger (Screen name: crohn)

[Guest guest]

I never dreamed in a million years that cucumber would be on the no no list.

Unless that didn't print out the way it was supposed to.

moons

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[Guest guest]

Hello...

I had the Candida Diet in my favorite places, and somehow, it has

disappeared. Does someone have the web site ? THis time I will make a copy.

Not the Trip diet. That is too lenient for me, as I can't have fruit or

dairy..

Thanks

Diane M

[Guest guest]

HELLO..

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE WONDERFUL DIET DATA.. I HAVE COPIED IT THIS TIME,

SO I WILL NOT LOSE IT. I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME IN SHARING THIS.

DIANE M

[Guest guest]

Here is an excerpt from a book with three levels outlined. Also includes

suggested supplements.

Candida Diet - 3 levels

Fellow Yeast Hosts --

Building on what Mark Giordani posted re: the 4 steps of Candida treatment as

identified by C. Orian Truss, M.D., I offer the following from this wonderful

book which is no longer in print, but you may be able to get through

inter-library loan.

There have been strides made in the understanding of immune system boosting

as well as in the choices of anti-fungal meds available now that weren't in

1985. However, as Jann Weiss pointed out, we are here to share and take what

we can use. We don't all have to agree. But I hope this helps those who are

struggling to understand and reminds those of us who have more experience

with Candida. Discussion is welcomed.

N.B.: The diets will be posted separately, labeled by #. Here is the intro

info.

>From " The Nutrition Detective " by Nan Fuchs, Ph.D., Dist. by St. 's

Press, 1985. ISBN 0-87477-350-4

About the Author: Nan Fuchs holds a Ph.D. in nutrition and, at the

time of publication, was director of a research project on premenstrual

syndrome with endocrinologist/gynecologist and PMS specialist Guy E. Abraham,

MD. Dr. Fuchs has long been interested in alternative medicine and was

cofounder of one of Los Angeles's most successful holistic health centers. A

writer and researcher, she has a private practice in nutrition in Santa

, CA.

*********************************************

Excerpted from " The Nutrition Detective " pp. 125-129.

Just as there is no simple diagnosis or test for Candida, there is no simple

treatment. Stopping the growth of the fungus and driving it out of the

tissues are the goals of a multilevel treatment that includes:

Immediate elimination of antibiotics, birth control pills and other

hormone-altering substances.

A diet designed to stop feeding the yeast.

Medical use of antifungal agents--such as Nystatin, or a homeopathic

liquid, Candex--which permeate the intestines and help destroy

Candida throughout the body.

Strengthening of the immune system through supplementation.

The diets required to starve out Candida eliminate all sources of yeast and

fungus and all sugars and sweets, including lactose-containing dairy

products, except for butter.

Mild cases of Candida (yeast infections and vague symptoms that are recent)

will usually respond to the Candida Diet No. 1

Moderate Candida (chronic, severe yeast infections or definite, interfering

symptoms) would best respond to the Candida Diet No. 2

Severe cases, which may have begun in early childhood or are debilitating

(cannot work, difficulty functioning), would require the persistent efforts

of the Candida Diet No. 3

Each diet is listed with foods to eliminate, to reduce, and to emphasize. In

addition, each level has its recommended nutritional supplementation.

CAUTION: I'm no doctor, I'm only researching the topic and sharing.

Nothing in this document should be construed as medical advice.

For long lasting relief, consult a doctor who practices

orthomolecular medicine.

>From " The Nutrition Detective " by Nan Fuchs, Ph.D., Dist. by St. 's

Press, 1985. ISBN 0-87477-350-4 (pp. 125-129)

***************************************************

Candida Diet No. 1: Mild

*********************

For persistent vaginal yeast infections with no other symptoms. This diet

will help you get the Candida under control and prevent recurrent outbreaks.

Foods to Eliminate (Save for Reference for Diets 2 and 3)

********************************************

Sugar in all forms, including honey, except occasional whole fresh fruit.

Fungus, molds, and yeast in all forms, including vitamins and minerals.

Most B vitamins (unless label states otherwise).

Most breads and commercial baked goods.

All alcoholic beverages.

Mushrooms.

Vinegar and all foods containing vinegar, including salad dressing,

sauerkraut, green olives, pickled vegetables, and relishes.

Some crackers (read labels carefully for yeast ingredients).

Fermented products including soy sauce (tamari) and tofu.

Dry roasted nuts.

Barbecued potato chips.

Most commercial soups.

Apple cider and natural root beer.

White flour.

Bacon and other pork, which often contain molds.

Reduce

*************

Whole grains and starchy vegetables until symptoms lessen.

Fruit and diluted fruit juices, which may cause yeast to grow.

Nuts and seeds (small amounts).

Beans and other legumes (small amounts).

Emphasize

*************

Eggs, fish, chicken, turkey, seafood, lamb, and veal.

Vegetables except corn and potatoes.

Vegetables that inhibit the growth of Candida: raw garlic, onions,

cabbage, broccoli, turnip, kale.

Supplements for Candida Diet No. 1

*****************************

Take for one month after symptoms stop.

Yeast-free multi-vitamin/mineral

1000 milligrams vitamin C, two times a day

Lactobacilus acidophilus tablets to increase intestinal bacteria

Re: Candida Diet No. 2--Moderate

****************************

For chronic vaginal yeast infections, or additional symptoms which prevent

you from feeling really good, begin with this diet. If Diet No. 1 did not

clear up your symptoms, incorporate these suggestions into your program as

well.

Eliminate

*************

Same as Diet No. 1 -- Plus

Wheat, oats, rye and barley, which contain gluten and can feed Candida.

Fruit and diluted fruit juices, high in fructose (fruit sugar).

Reduce

*************

Same as Diet No. 1, except for some whole grains: brown rice,

millet, buckwheat, cornmeal

Herb teas and spices, which may contain molds.

Emphasize

*************

Same as Diet No.1

Supplements for Candida Diet No. 2

*****************************

Yeast-free multi-vitamin/mineral

1000 milligrams vitamin C, four times a day

Lactobacilus acidophilus in large quantities (Ultradophilus,

Maxidophilus, Superdophilus, and so on, with approx. 2 billion

organisms per gram) to help repopulate the intestines. Take

1/2 teaspoon morning and evening on an empty stomach.

2 teaspoons olive oil with 2 teaspoons oat bran, three times a day,

to help keep fungus from crossing the intestinal barrier.

100 micrograms selenium for immune system support.

400 iu dry vitamin E for immune system support.

20,000 iu beta carotene for immune system support.

Digestive enzymes, with pancreatin, after meals and before bed,

to help digest the food you eat as well as undigested food particles

in the bloodstream.

Candex to improve immune response and eliminate the fungus.

Candida Diet No. 3: Severe

*******************

Some people are debilitated by Candida and cannot function at work or can

barely get through the day. If you were exposed to high levels of

antibiotics as a child, or if you have had severe symptoms for more than four

years, go directly to this diet. If your symptoms did not clear up with Diet

No. 2, advance to this one until they diminish.

Foods to Eliminate

*************

Same as Diets nos. 1 and 2.

Dried meat and smoked meat, fish of poultry, including sausage,

hot dogs, luncheon meats, smoked turkey, and smoked salmon.

Nuts and seeds, which may contain mold.

All grains, except a little rice and millet.

Herb teas and spices.

Foods You Can Eat -- YEAH!! -- Here we go!

**********************************

Eggs, fish, chicken, turkey, seafood, lamb, or veal, sauteed in a little

butter or safflower oil or baked with vegetables.

Steamed, sauteed, or baked vegetables, especially onions, garlic,

cabbage, broccoli, turnips, and kale. All vegetables are fine

except potatoes and corn, which are high in carbohydrates.

Sauteed vegetables with eggs on rice cakes, or a vegetable omelet.

Salads seasoned with safflower oil and a little fresh lemon juice.

Gazpacho, tomato-based fish chowder, begetable soup, chicken or

lamb stew.

Small quantities of rice and millet. A cold rice salad with steamed

vegetables, seasoned with oil and lemon juice; sauteed rice with

shrimp, chicken, and vegetables, or simply steamed vegetables

with either grain are a few ideas that will work on this program.

Rice cakes, found in some supermarkets and health food stores,

can be used instead of bread.

Vegetable sticks with guacamole dip (avocado, fresh tomatoes, onions,

lemon juice, and a little salt) for a snack.

Supplements for Candida Diet No. 3

*************************

Yeast-free multi-vitamin/mineral.

Digestive enzymes with pancreatin after meals and before bed.

1000 milligrams vitamin C an hour (up to 10 grams/day) for immune

system.

Acidophilus in large quantities (some brands, Ultradophilus, Maxidophilus,

and so on have approx. 2 billion organisms per gram) to repopulate the

intestinal bacteria. Take 1/2 teaspoon morning and evening on an empty

stomach.

2 Teaspoons olive oil with 2 teaspoons oat bran, three times a day, to help

keep fungus from crossing the intestinal barrier.

100 micrograms selenium three times a day, for immune system.

400 iu dry vitamin E two times a day for immune system.

20,000 iu beta carotene, for immune system

Pau D'Arco tea (taheebo tea), an herb tea from South America, which

kills fungus, one cup three times a day.

Candex to improve immune response and eliminate the fungus.

Nystatin in powder form, available by medical prescription.

As soon as you are free from symptoms, begin reintroducing a few foods

slowly. The last ones to add would be yeast, vinegar, and mushrooms.* It

may be necessary for you to stay on the Candida Albicans Diet for a number of

months. Doctors report a year or more is not unusual, but Fuchs has found by

combining supplements with diet, it is often possible to go back to the

Anti-Illness Diet more quickly. The more thoroughly you are able to stay on

these diets, the faster you can eliminate excess Candida. However, it is

better to be on a modified diet than on no diet at all. Some patients would

rather eat sugar or have a glass of wine occasionally even though it may mean

being on the diet for a longer period of time.

__________

* Note that some people are allergic to these as well as other foods. Those

allergies may still be present after cleansing with Candida

Diet.--Renie.

Candex, the homeopathic preparation used successfully in Fuchs' practice, is

available in a number of strengths, each one designed for particular degrees

of Candida overgrowth. For this reason it is only available through

health-care professionals, who can select the appropriate dosage and monitor

progress.

Candex is manufactured by Seroyal Brands, Inc. If you are interested in

finding someone in your area who is familiar with its use, call their

toll-free number: 1-800-533-1033. (N.B. This may be an old number. I did

not verify it. Any Seroyal product should have a current number, however. I

don't have any.)

The URL of this page is: http://www.CandidaPage.com/candiet.txt

Hopefully, this helps everyone.

Re: Candida Diet

Hello...

I had the Candida Diet in my favorite places, and somehow, it has

disappeared. Does someone have the web site ? THis time I will make a copy.

Not the Trip diet. That is too lenient for me, as I can't have fruit or

dairy..

Thanks

Diane M

[Guest guest]

Fasting helps me the most, but that is because I don't have to fight

cravings. Before that, or when I am just getting over eating

incorrectly and need to go back to high protein, 0 carb, it takes 3-4

days to get past the sugar and starch cravings.

My overall health and mental capabilities improve more rapidly from

fasting than from anything else, but it may depend on what I'm using

on the fast. I don't water fast anymore. The lemonade fast helped,

but I don't use the syrup or molasses that it calls for. I prefer

just the lemon water.

> What are some of the foods you people eat??? Does fasting do any

> help at all?

[Guest guest]

Go to it !!!!!

Tamara <tamaratornado@...> wrote:I've decided to go on a candida diet, a

type Oish one of course; I'm

pretty close to it already. I'll just be doing meat, healthy fat, and

non-starchy veggies. all fresh food. No fruit. I'm all revved up for it.

I'm finally getting the hang of including the right mix of meat and

fat; so I'm not craving sugar and dairy like I used to. YAY!!!! I

think i can really do this!!!!

I am really enjoying this diet now. I could learn some more meat

cooking tricks, but I have enough now I can do it!!!

- T

[Guest guest]

Dear Rita,

When you joined our group you would have received my article " How to

Successfully Overcome Candida " - the diet is explained in it in

detail. This article is in our Files (see the left menu). There's

also information in our files in a Folder " Candida Diet " , which

contains several helpful lists, etc.

Bee

[Guest guest]

On 9/8/05, clzdawson <cathydawson@...> wrote:

> I am considering following a Candida diet and am trying to decide how

> to mesh this with my native nutrition diet. Have any of you treated a

> Candida infection with diet? The Candida diet calls for no fermented

> foods. I wonder if this really exacerbates a candida infection.

> Also, it calls for low-glycemic index foods. I wonder if this means

> no sprouted/soaked grains. Can anyone provide info on all this?

Hi ,

I think the no fermented foods is based on the outdated idea that

candida symptoms are in part caused by yeast allergy. In fact

fermented foods are probably very important.

I think the low-glycemic thing is wrong-headed. The result of eating

complex carbs instead of simple sugars is that they will feed

organisms overgrown in the colon instead of the small intestines.

Simple sugars like onions are high in inulin, which, while I guess

this is controversial, preferentially feeds lactobacillus. At the

same time, the simple sugars in the onion will be absorbed quickly in

the small intestine without ever reaching the colon, and will have

minimal potential to hang around in the gut and feed undesirable

organisms. Also, honey appears in the research to quite clearly be

anti-candida. Anecdotal evidence I've seen so far indicates that many

people find honey to be neutral, some find it to be helpful, and one

person has reported it to aggravate her candida when she consumed it

with (I assume dried, unfermented) coconut.

I'm currently on an anti-candida protocol of my own development.

Here's my basic idea:

Follow a nut-free, low-carb version of the Specific Carbohydrate Diet

(SCD). Also cut out milk and eggs if you are allergic, but cut out

nuts no matter what. Get most of your carbs from onions and garlic.

The best way to do this would be sauteed, and you could add in a

little bit of other veggies too. The remainder of your carbs should

come from small amounts of honey, preferably a high-quality,

unfiltered, raw honey. Maybe eat 1 to 3 *tea*spoons a day.

The SCD, if you don't know, involves cutting out all complex starches

and disacharide/polysacharide sugars. All sweeteners are not allowed

except honey, and that includes maple syrup. No grains or tubers are

allowed. Only simple sugar veggies, which is most low-carb veggies

and some higher-carb veggies like onions and peppers, etc (although

these are still pretty low-carb) are allowed. While higher-carb

fruits including squashes and veggies like carrots are allowed, I

would cut out fruits (including squash) and carrots and the like on an

anti-candida diet.

While Robin says she beat candida with diet alone, I suspect this is a

long and trying approach and much less effective than combining diet

with antifungals and probiotics.

For probiotics, you should get an S. Boulardi supplement and an L.

Reuteri supplement, and a general complex as well. Ideally at least

one if not all of these should be enteric coated. Threelac is an

anti-candida probiotic that I have not tried yet but others are raving

about.

For antifungals, I personally am taking a pretty comprehensive

approach and using oil of oregano, olive leaf extract, caprylate,

undecylenate, grapefruit seed extract ( uncovered a study finding

gf seed to *not* have antimicrobial effects, but it's tied into

another supplement I'm using) pau d'arco, raw fresh garlic, and raw

fresh ginger juice. I take my antifungals three times a day, and I

follow them a little while later with Dr. Shulze's IF#2, which has

fibers, clay, and charcoal. Since I started IF#2, I realized it was

reducing my BM frequency, so now I'm taking the minimum dose of IF#1

to compensate for that.

For probiotics I'm taking Primal Defense, kefired mollasses water,

kimchi, S. Boulardi and just bought an enteric-coated L. Reuteri that

I'll start taking soon. I'm considering ordering some Threelac since

others are raving about it.

I would avoid any alcohol including red wine, even though it may be

antifungal (although from what I've seen not against candida), because

the liver will be stressed during the candida die-off. I found my

tolerance for alcohol to drop dramatically during my treatment, so

I've cut out red wine for now.

Hope this helps some.

As a side note, the next issue of my newsletter will come out probably

tomorrow evening, which will discuss a new study showing cholesterol

to be anti-candida. If you're interested you can subscribe at

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Newsletter.html

Good luck!

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

>> Get most of your carbs from onions and garlic. <<

This is MY KIND OF DIET! Almost makes me wish I had candida. <G>

Christie

Caber Feidh ish Deerhounds

Holistically Raising Our Dogs Since 1986

http://www.caberfeidh.com/

http://www.doggedblog.com/

[Guest guest]

Hi

Could you please comment on why you would not eat nuts while on

anti-candida diet? Thanks.

From: Masterjohn

Date: 09/08/05 13:57:07

Follow a nut-free, low-carb version of the Specific Carbohydrate Diet

(SCD).

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Simple sugars like onions are high in inulin, which, while I guess

>this is controversial, preferentially feeds lactobacillus. At the

>same time, the simple sugars in the onion will be absorbed quickly in

>the small intestine without ever reaching the colon, and will have

>minimal potential to hang around in the gut and feed undesirable

>organisms.

The onions will have no trouble feeding dysbiotic organisms if they're in

the small intestine rather than the large, and many people's problems do in

fact reside there rather than in the colon. Also, while there's plenty of

controversy due to financial interests clouding the air, it's

well-established that regardless of whether certain desirable organisms

like it (and a large part of its perceived desirability is because of its

ability to feed bifidus, which may not actually be a good idea at all)

inulin is also preferred even more strongly by some very undesirable

organisms like klebsiella. (IOW klebsiella will bloom FASTER on inulin

than bifidus.) Furthermore, even absent klebsiella and the like, the

notion that inulin (and/or FOS) could conceivably feed only certain species

is fundamentally ludicrous, because as those species feed on a substance,

they break it down and make it more and more metabolically available to

OTHER species.

Anecdotally, many people beginning the SCD for gut problems discover that

they can't tolerate onions (and sometimes even garlic) and that too much or

even any of either will cause flares. I don't think I've ever heard from

anyone, by contrast, who attributed healing to onions, though for healthy

people they can of course be a very healthy food. Eventually most people

can do fine on a certain amount of onion, but it's not a beginner food on

the SCD for good reason.

> Also, honey appears in the research to quite clearly be

>anti-candida. Anecdotal evidence I've seen so far indicates that many

>people find honey to be neutral, some find it to be helpful, and one

>person has reported it to aggravate her candida when she consumed it

>with (I assume dried, unfermented) coconut.

I've heard from rather more people for whom honey proved counterproductive,

but this issue is clouded by dosage. The vast majority of the small

minority of people for whom the SCD doesn't work (and many people recover

without even undertaking a low-carb version of it) are those who indulge

very heavily in the legal sweet carbs, particularly honey though also

fruit, and neglect important nutritional foundations like animal fat and meat.

I'd also recommend caution with honey no matter what, if only because the

sugar (mostly fructose) is eventually going to be separated in the body

from whatever beneficial factors are present in even the best honey, and

fructose especially and excess sugars generally are not good to have

around. (Fructose, IIRC, glycates at ten times the rate of glucose --

which tells me that we didn't evolve on a fruit-heavy diet, or that if we

did eat a lot of fruit, it certainly didn't resemble modern fruits. And

furthermore, fructose and any other non-glucose simple sugars in quantity

are going to be hard on the liver, as the liver has to convert them all to

glucose eventually.)

>For probiotics, you should get an S. Boulardi supplement and an L.

>Reuteri supplement

How come those specifically?

>Ideally at least

>one if not all of these should be enteric coated.

You don't think taking them right before bed (hours after eating) is

adequate? I've certainly noticed definite results from doing that with

probiotic powders I capped myself.

> Threelac is an

>anti-candida probiotic that I have not tried yet but others are raving

>about.

I don't know anything specific about it, but I don't know anything much

about two of the strains in it: Bacillus Coagulans (200 million CFU),

Bacillus Subtillis (25 million CFU), Enterococcus Faecalis (25 Million

CFU). What are coagulans and faecails good for?

>and just bought an enteric-coated L. Reuteri that

>I'll start taking soon. I'm considering ordering some Threelac since

>others are raving about it.

Where'd you get the Reuteri, and what are the fillers?

Apologies if this post (and others for the next couple days) are full of

typos and other problems. I can't really see or read as what turned out to

be a corneal infection has resurfaced. (The moldy theater strikes AGAIN!)

-

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> I've heard from rather more people for whom honey proved

> counterproductive,

> but this issue is clouded by dosage.

Do you have any recollection as to what dosage worked for most people and

how much they ate when they got into trouble?

> I can't really see or read as what

> turned out to

> be a corneal infection has resurfaced.

Bummer. Sorry to hear that.

It was really great meeting you this weekend. Both and I thoroughly

enjoyed it.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron-

>Do you have any recollection as to what dosage worked for most people and

>how much they ate when they got into trouble?

It's more like a continuum -- the higher-carb and lower-fat and lower-meat

the diet, the worse the problems.

Due to the liver factor, I tend to think that people like you and me ought

to be particularly wary of honey. (I'll elaborate onlist or off if you'd

like; I just don't know how much to say here.)

>Bummer. Sorry to hear that.

Thanks. I couldn't even believe it when I woke up this morning with my eye

in pain and watering like crazy. I ate a tiny morsel of something sweet

with one meal yesterday, which may have been the tipping factor, but

obviously this fungus has been hanging around in my eye since that

disastrous movie outing of last month.

>It was really great meeting you this weekend. Both and I thoroughly

>enjoyed it.

Likewise! You're tremendously nice people and I really enjoyed your company.

-

[Guest guest]

On 9/8/05, Kindscher (Charter) <morningsunranch@...> wrote:

> Hi

>

> Could you please comment on why you would not eat nuts while on

> anti-candida diet? Thanks.

Nuts are very difficult to digest. Even for a healthy person, they

should only be consumed if they've been soaked overnight in a salt

water solution (a traditional practice) to neutralize the enzyme

inhibitors.

I seriously doubt that the average person with serious digestive

problems can handle nuts. I suspect most people with a serious

candida overgrowth would have such digestive problems.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 9/8/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> The onions will have no trouble feeding dysbiotic organisms if they're in

> the small intestine rather than the large, and many people's problems do in

> fact reside there rather than in the colon.

It was also my suggestion to limit the intake of carbs per se. What

type of carbs do you think someone should eat, then, for the carbs

that they do eat?

> Also, while there's plenty of

> controversy due to financial interests clouding the air, it's

> well-established that regardless of whether certain desirable organisms

> like it (and a large part of its perceived desirability is because of its

> ability to feed bifidus, which may not actually be a good idea at all)

> inulin is also preferred even more strongly by some very undesirable

> organisms like klebsiella. (IOW klebsiella will bloom FASTER on inulin

> than bifidus.)

I have not investigated this thoroughly at all, but I did a little

poking around and found that lactobacilli increase in vivo in humans

and pathogenic organisms decrease on inulin/FOS feeding. I agree that

I haven't looked into this deeply enough. That said, you eat your

fair share of onions and garlic, and the way you've described your

diet I wouldn't be surprised if onions were your major carb source,

no? In any case, what then, do you reccomend one eat for carbs? Pure

honey?

I guess steamed greens is a good idea too, but to the extent that

carbs make up any significant portion of the calories I would

recommend and conume myself onions and garlic over " complex " and

" low-glycemic " carbs.

Besides, from what you've posted in the past, the inulin feeding

klebsiella thing comes from a test tube study and I don't know what

type of inulin it was using or whether it matches what's found in

onions and garlic.

> Furthermore, even absent klebsiella and the like, the

> notion that inulin (and/or FOS) could conceivably feed only certain species

> is fundamentally ludicrous, because as those species feed on a substance,

> they break it down and make it more and more metabolically available to

> OTHER species.

So what? I agree that this is true, but the good guys *need something

to eat*! What type of food DOES preferentially feed the good guys

over the bad guys?

> Anecdotally, many people beginning the SCD for gut problems discover that

> they can't tolerate onions (and sometimes even garlic) and that too much or

> even any of either will cause flares. I don't think I've ever heard from

> anyone, by contrast, who attributed healing to onions, though for healthy

> people they can of course be a very healthy food. Eventually most people

> can do fine on a certain amount of onion, but it's not a beginner food on

> the SCD for good reason.

Ok, fair enough. In that case then I guess I would limit carbs to

steamed veggies and small amounts of honey then.

> > Also, honey appears in the research to quite clearly be

> >anti-candida. Anecdotal evidence I've seen so far indicates that many

> >people find honey to be neutral, some find it to be helpful, and one

> >person has reported it to aggravate her candida when she consumed it

> >with (I assume dried, unfermented) coconut.

>

> I've heard from rather more people for whom honey proved counterproductive,

> but this issue is clouded by dosage. The vast majority of the small

> minority of people for whom the SCD doesn't work (and many people recover

> without even undertaking a low-carb version of it) are those who indulge

> very heavily in the legal sweet carbs, particularly honey though also

> fruit, and neglect important nutritional foundations like animal fat and

> meat.

It's also clouded by what type of problems people on the SCD generally

have versus candida. It could be possible that honey is more

effective against candida than other problems, so that those on the

candida lists would have heard better testimony than those on the SCD

list.

I would suspect, though, that those people indulging in honey were

also the same people indulging in nut flours, weren't they?

> I'd also recommend caution with honey no matter what, if only because the

> sugar (mostly fructose) is eventually going to be separated in the body

> from whatever beneficial factors are present in even the best honey, and

> fructose especially and excess sugars generally are not good to have

> around.

I'm not so sure fructose would " hang around. " In any case, my

recommendation was for a pretty minimal amount of honey, and honey is

only 1/3 fructose.

> (Fructose, IIRC, glycates at ten times the rate of glucose --

> which tells me that we didn't evolve on a fruit-heavy diet, or that if we

> did eat a lot of fruit, it certainly didn't resemble modern fruits. And

> furthermore, fructose and any other non-glucose simple sugars in quantity

> are going to be hard on the liver, as the liver has to convert them all to

> glucose eventually.)

I don't think eating fructose leads to a significant amount of blood

fructose. Fructose goes to the liver and is converted to glucose and

triglycerides, about 60%/40%. That might be stressful on the liver in

large doses, but I don't think it would lead to fructose " hanging

around " the body-- and in any case I really don't think the amount of

fructose in a teaspoon or tablespoon of honey is going to be too

stressful on the liver.

> >For probiotics, you should get an S. Boulardi supplement and an L.

> >Reuteri supplement

>

> How come those specifically?

S. Boulardi has a growing reputation for being anti-candida and having

a prominent role as a friendly yeast and L. Reuteri secretes a certain

factor that helps the other lactobacilli to colonize. It also-- well,

according to the manufacturer's info that I'll have to look up later--

deepens the villi and increases absorptive surface in the intestines.

When I went to see the adrenal/thyroid lecture by Dr. Rind at last

years WAPF conference he recommended S. Boulardi specifically for

dealing with dysbiosis, which apparently is almost always found in his

patients with adrenal/thyroid problems.

> >Ideally at least

> >one if not all of these should be enteric coated.

>

> You don't think taking them right before bed (hours after eating) is

> adequate? I've certainly noticed definite results from doing that with

> probiotic powders I capped myself.

I do that too, but wouldn't it be better to take them throughout the

day and have some that are enteric coated? I just happened upon an

enteric coated L. Reuteri and I'm going to try it out today, but it

seems like the best thing to take at any time where stomach acid is

going to be significant.

>

> > Threelac is an

> >anti-candida probiotic that I have not tried yet but others are raving

> >about.

>

> I don't know anything specific about it, but I don't know anything much

> about two of the strains in it: Bacillus Coagulans (200 million CFU),

> Bacillus Subtillis (25 million CFU), Enterococcus Faecalis (25 Million

> CFU). What are coagulans and faecails good for?

No idea. Like I said, everybody's reporting super-results from it, so

I was just throwing it out there. I haven't bought any for myself

yet, but I'm going to look into it. Suze just picked some up I think.

> >and just bought an enteric-coated L. Reuteri that

> >I'll start taking soon. I'm considering ordering some Threelac since

> >others are raving about it.

>

> Where'd you get the Reuteri, and what are the fillers?

Jarrow at Whole Foods. Fillers are maltodextrin, gelatin, aquous

enteric coating, magneisum stearate, ascorbic acid. I know you don't

like maltodextrin but I doubt there is any signifcant negative with

it. I'd rather not have the magnesium stearate, but it was the only

L. Reuteri there, and the only enteric-coated probiotic too, so it

looks pretty promising to me. Also it's been clinically tested,

according to the package, though I don't know if the test was with the

exact product or not. In any case, the test results for colonization,

as cast by the manufacturer, look impressive.

I picked it up while browsing, but it looks pretty exciting. I'll

have to look into it more and also report on my experience with it.

(Or, rather, guess about my experience, since I'm taking a billion

things at once.)

> Apologies if this post (and others for the next couple days) are full of

> typos and other problems. I can't really see or read as what turned out to

> be a corneal infection has resurfaced. (The moldy theater strikes AGAIN!)

Ouch, I'm sorry. I hope you get well soon.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

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[Guest guest]

Thanks

I do soak mine over nite and don't have a problem. They are a really

important part of my diet, just wanted to make sure there was not something

that I did not know. I no longer have candida.

From: Masterjohn

Nuts are very difficult to digest. Even for a healthy person, they

should only be consumed if they've been soaked overnight in a salt

water solution (a traditional practice) to neutralize the enzyme

inhibitors.

I seriously doubt that the average person with serious digestive

problems can handle nuts. I suspect most people with a serious

candida overgrowth would have such digestive problems.

Chris

--

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>It was also my suggestion to limit the intake of carbs per se. What

>type of carbs do you think someone should eat, then, for the carbs

>that they do eat?

What stage are we talking about?

>That said, you eat your

>fair share of onions and garlic, and the way you've described your

>diet I wouldn't be surprised if onions were your major carb source,

>no?

I used to eat a lot more onions than I do now, and though I've made other

changes at the same time, my digestion has improved since cutting down on

them, for whatever that is or isn't worth. I do eat a fair bit of bit of

garlic, though, and when I make a new batch of kimchi, I'll be eating that

much more.

>In any case, what then, do you reccomend one eat for carbs? Pure

>honey?

Early on? A little honey mixed into some things, small amounts of fruit

juice, the carbs found in broth... not much more than that. Later more

things can be added, though to an extent it's an individual matter.

>I guess steamed greens is a good idea too, but to the extent that

>carbs make up any significant portion of the calories I would

>recommend and conume myself onions and garlic over " complex " and

> " low-glycemic " carbs.

Oh, I'd never advocate people load up on complex carbs! " Low-glycemic " ,

though, can mean just about anything. A tomato can be low-glycemic. Kale

is low-glycemic. Even a prickly pear might be low-glycemic. But steamed

greens (why not sauteed?) or really greens of any kind aren't part of the

induction phase of the SCD because of the fiber. People don't do well on

them until they've gotten a lot of healing under their belts.

>Besides, from what you've posted in the past, the inulin feeding

>klebsiella thing comes from a test tube study and I don't know what

>type of inulin it was using or whether it matches what's found in

>onions and garlic.

There's more than just in vitro data out there, though I'm not up to

hunting it down at the moment. If the discussion is still going when my

eye is better, I'll dig some up then. But remember when I mentioned

advocates of these substances regarding farting as a positive? They were

talking about inulin- and FOS-induced farting.

>What type of food DOES preferentially feed the good guys

>over the bad guys?

Inasmuch as the SCD does really well at correcting dysbiosis and healing

people's digestive systems despite its nutritional gaps except when people

really overindulge in legal carbs, I'd say SCD-legal carbs apparently work

pretty nicely.

>Ok, fair enough. In that case then I guess I would limit carbs to

>steamed veggies and small amounts of honey then.

I forget the exact details of the introduction phase of the SCD, but

steamed veggies definitely aren't part of it. Broth is, honey is, a little

fruit juice is. Chicken soup -- which obviously should be made the NN way

-- is a major component of it.

>It's also clouded by what type of problems people on the SCD generally

>have versus candida. It could be possible that honey is more

>effective against candida than other problems, so that those on the

>candida lists would have heard better testimony than those on the SCD

>list.

Yeah, that's quite possible.

>I would suspect, though, that those people indulging in honey were

>also the same people indulging in nut flours, weren't they?

There's some overlap, but not as much as you might think. Even in flour

form, nut flours aren't always tolerated that well. (Obviously part of

that is because the SCD almond flours onthe market aren't made from soaked

almonds, but also it's just because they're nuts.) Nut flour tends to give

a clearer, more obvious correlation between consumption and subsequent

distress than plain overindulgence in fruits, honey and other legal sweets.

>I don't think eating fructose leads to a significant amount of blood

>fructose. Fructose goes to the liver and is converted to glucose and

>triglycerides, about 60%/40%. That might be stressful on the liver in

>large doses, but I don't think it would lead to fructose " hanging

>around " the body-- and in any case I really don't think the amount of

>fructose in a teaspoon or tablespoon of honey is going to be too

>stressful on the liver.

The stress on the liver probably depends to a large extent on how healthy

the liver is to begin with. Obviously many people improve dramatically on

the SCD despite consuming what I'd call a lot of carbs, including a lot of

honey, and despite not paying attention to many nutritional issues, so

liver function obviously doesn't deteriorate in direct lockstep with

digestive function. But for people with more serious systemic health

problems, I would recommend avoiding it.

As to how long and how much it circulates before conversion... I'm not sure

exactly. I wouldn't expect there'd be all the data there is on its

glycating potential if it never got anywhere to do any glycating, but as

I'm a low-carber and eat very little honey, I haven't looked into it in depth.

>L. Reuteri secretes a certain

>factor that helps the other lactobacilli to colonize. It also-- well,

>according to the manufacturer's info that I'll have to look up later--

>deepens the villi and increases absorptive surface in the intestines.

Hmm, maybe that's the one I was looking for in a filler-free (or SCD-legal,

anyway) form awhile back. I tried and failed to convince Harry at Custom

Probiotics to carry it (L. Reuteri or whatever it was) but then I

apparently lost my files in a crash and now I can't figure out for sure

what I was looking for. Whatever it was, it was supposed to lengthen and

regrow the villi and dramatically improve absorption, and I wanted to try some.

>When I went to see the adrenal/thyroid lecture by Dr. Rind at last

>years WAPF conference he recommended S. Boulardi specifically for

>dealing with dysbiosis, which apparently is almost always found in his

>patients with adrenal/thyroid problems.

Do you know of any filler-free or SCD-legal form? I've been wondering

about trying boulardi for a long time now.

>I do that too, but wouldn't it be better to take them throughout the

>day and have some that are enteric coated?

Possibly, but that might depend on meal frequency, since you wouldn't want

even an enteric-coated supplement to get too mixed up with food (though

some (few) people seem to think probiotics implant better when taken with

food) and also, there's data which strongly suggests that probiotics

implant better when you're lying down, meaning right before bed is the best

time to take them. But taking them throughout the day is unlikely to hurt,

anyway, even if it cuts down on your value per dollar spent.

>No idea. Like I said, everybody's reporting super-results from it, so

>I was just throwing it out there. I haven't bought any for myself

>yet, but I'm going to look into it. Suze just picked some up I think.

I'll be interested to hear how it works out.

>Jarrow at Whole Foods. Fillers are maltodextrin, gelatin, aquous

>enteric coating, magneisum stearate, ascorbic acid. I know you don't

>like maltodextrin but I doubt there is any signifcant negative with

>it.

I haven't had time to write my maltodextrin-is-de-debbil post, but trust

me, it's coming! <g>

>Also it's been clinically tested,

>according to the package, though I don't know if the test was with the

>exact product or not.

Unfortunately, it's often not. VSL3 (I think I'm remembering the name

right) was tested as a pure, filler-free probiotic and then sold with corn

starch. I actually saw some people reporting that they'd done great with

it in the trials and then experienced hell from the commercial

version. They had no clue why until the corn starch was unmasked.

>Ouch, I'm sorry. I hope you get well soon.

Thanks. It's appreciably nastier the second time around. It feels like

someone's grinding broken glass into my eye. I'm going to try to chill out

with a DVD before bed, but it's a little difficult with one eye weeping

like crazy and hurting and the other trying to close in sympathy (or just

because I suck at winking). I went to my ophthalmologist today and he gave

my some antibiotic drops since corneal infections are apparently usually

bacterial, but I'm supposed to go back on Saturday for in case this is a

fungal infection. As it's seemingly a consequence of the mold exposure and

as the drops are either not helping at all or are letting or making it get

worse, I'm betting on the fungus. I'll probably call him tomorrow instead

of waiting until Saturday post-farmers market, because this is hell.

-

[Guest guest]

Curious if you've explored ozone/hydrogen peroxide therapies. They're

accepted as part of mainstream medicine in Europe, but not so here. I've

been reading up on them lately for Candida. Wondering if you've done

research, and what your views are. TIA! Oh! Here's an example of an

article talking about its use in Europe:

http://houseofstrauss.co.uk/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=414

-Sharon, NH

Deut 11:14 He will put grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will

have plenty to eat.

>I'm currently on an anti-candida protocol of my own development.

>Here's my basic idea:

[Guest guest]

> What stage are we talking about?

Well what I'd said was that, rather than getting carbs from " complex "

sources that it would be best to get them from simple carb veggies,

plus honey because everything I've seen so far indicates that honey is

anti-candida both in vitro and in vivo.

I suggested restricting carbs overall, but that one eat garlic and

onions, because it appears to me that these are apparently prebiotic.

I recognize that you've reported bad experiences from taking inulin so

I'm not even considering taking inulin right now, but I've seen in

vivo studies where inulin seems to help.

I found a study (I'll put it at the bottom) that found garlic as a

substrate in kimchi to lower the pH than without garlic, as it

preferentially fed more acid-producing bacteria than the other

substrates, which means it would be anti-candida. The preferential

feeding matched insulin's preferential feeding too (by species I

think), indicating the inulin in garlic feeds bacteria that are

desirable to correct candida.

That said, maybe it makes a difference of what is in the gut to start

with. Maybe garlic and onions are good prebiotics in healthy people

to prevent disease, but might be bad under certain circumstances.

Since garlic and onions both contain all sorts of sulfuric and other

compounds, I don't think we can draw generalizations from the effects

of isolated inulin. There might be compounds that inhibit some of the

pathogenic organisms that can also thrive on inulin.

Of course, you also reported the experience that at the beginning

onions can be troublesome for people, so I don't know.

I guess I should be conservative with the recommendation as I'm really

guessing on this, but I'm trying it myself and will see how I do on

onions/garlic. Either way I think that it would be better to consume

them than what folks typically think of as " low-glycemic " carbs (which

is usually confused with " complex " carbs), especially since onions are

very low-carb per amount of volume compared to most other carbs.

> Early on? A little honey mixed into some things, small amounts of fruit

> juice, the carbs found in broth... not much more than that. Later more

> things can be added, though to an extent it's an individual matter.

That sounds good. I guess an anti-candida diet should get carbs

almost exclusively from honey, although not that much, because of its

antifungals. I ate a bunch of onions tonight as a stir-fry of sorts,

and it does seem like my digestion suffered for it, I'm not sure. Of

course, I also accidentally bought semi-sweet chocolate instead of

pure chocolate, which I'm pretty annoyed at, but I ate a piece anyway,

so it's hard to tell. Tomorrow I'll try no onions at breakfast and

try onions with no chocolate in the evening and see how I do, see if I

can tell if it was the onions or the chocolate.

> >I guess steamed greens is a good idea too, but to the extent that

> >carbs make up any significant portion of the calories I would

> >recommend and conume myself onions and garlic over " complex " and

> > " low-glycemic " carbs.

>

> Oh, I'd never advocate people load up on complex carbs! " Low-glycemic " ,

> though, can mean just about anything. A tomato can be low-glycemic. Kale

> is low-glycemic. Even a prickly pear might be low-glycemic. But steamed

> greens (why not sauteed?) or really greens of any kind aren't part of the

> induction phase of the SCD because of the fiber. People don't do well on

> them until they've gotten a lot of healing under their belts.

Hmm, yeah I agree with this. I guess honey looks like the best carb source.

> >Besides, from what you've posted in the past, the inulin feeding

> >klebsiella thing comes from a test tube study and I don't know what

> >type of inulin it was using or whether it matches what's found in

> >onions and garlic.

>

> There's more than just in vitro data out there, though I'm not up to

> hunting it down at the moment. If the discussion is still going when my

> eye is better, I'll dig some up then. But remember when I mentioned

> advocates of these substances regarding farting as a positive? They were

> talking about inulin- and FOS-induced farting.

Well yeah that is ridiculous, but I saw one that indicated

lactobacillus went up 10% on a week of inulin and pathogenic organisms

declined. I think they were going by stool.

> >What type of food DOES preferentially feed the good guys

> >over the bad guys?

>

> Inasmuch as the SCD does really well at correcting dysbiosis and healing

> people's digestive systems despite its nutritional gaps except when people

> really overindulge in legal carbs, I'd say SCD-legal carbs apparently work

> pretty nicely.

Hmm. I'm confused about this simply because the simple carbs

shouldn't be a major prebiotic source for the colon. I suppose it's

possible the whole idea of " prebiotics " is a load of bunk. Newer

research has shown that intestinal cells feed sugars to the microbes

colonizing them as in a symbiotic relationship, so maybe prebiotics

just aren't necessary at all.

> >Ok, fair enough. In that case then I guess I would limit carbs to

> >steamed veggies and small amounts of honey then.

>

> I forget the exact details of the introduction phase of the SCD, but

> steamed veggies definitely aren't part of it. Broth is, honey is, a little

> fruit juice is. Chicken soup -- which obviously should be made the NN way

> -- is a major component of it.

Yeah, that makes more sense than steamed veggies and onions actually.

The way my dinner tonight was digesting, I'm thinking maybe onions

aren't a very good idea.

> >I would suspect, though, that those people indulging in honey were

> >also the same people indulging in nut flours, weren't they?

>

> There's some overlap, but not as much as you might think. Even in flour

> form, nut flours aren't always tolerated that well. (Obviously part of

> that is because the SCD almond flours onthe market aren't made from soaked

> almonds, but also it's just because they're nuts.) Nut flour tends to give

> a clearer, more obvious correlation between consumption and subsequent

> distress than plain overindulgence in fruits, honey and other legal sweets.

So people have a much worse time with nuts, but that leaves long-term

damage from too much carbs to go unnoticed, you're saying?

> >I don't think eating fructose leads to a significant amount of blood

> >fructose. Fructose goes to the liver and is converted to glucose and

> >triglycerides, about 60%/40%. That might be stressful on the liver in

> >large doses, but I don't think it would lead to fructose " hanging

> >around " the body-- and in any case I really don't think the amount of

> >fructose in a teaspoon or tablespoon of honey is going to be too

> >stressful on the liver.

>

> The stress on the liver probably depends to a large extent on how healthy

> the liver is to begin with. Obviously many people improve dramatically on

> the SCD despite consuming what I'd call a lot of carbs, including a lot of

> honey, and despite not paying attention to many nutritional issues, so

> liver function obviously doesn't deteriorate in direct lockstep with

> digestive function. But for people with more serious systemic health

> problems, I would recommend avoiding it.

Ok, but a tablespoon of honey only provides about 5 grams of fructose.

I doubt that causes more work for the liver than dealing with

metabolism in general. Obviously you aren't going to eat, for

example, the perfect balance of fat and carbs to match your needs, and

glycogen storage/utilization is probably going to occur through the

day normally, etc.

> As to how long and how much it circulates before conversion... I'm not sure

> exactly. I wouldn't expect there'd be all the data there is on its

> glycating potential if it never got anywhere to do any glycating, but as

> I'm a low-carber and eat very little honey, I haven't looked into it in

> depth.

Ok. I'd like to learn more about that.

> >When I went to see the adrenal/thyroid lecture by Dr. Rind at last

> >years WAPF conference he recommended S. Boulardi specifically for

> >dealing with dysbiosis, which apparently is almost always found in his

> >patients with adrenal/thyroid problems.

>

> Do you know of any filler-free or SCD-legal form? I've been wondering

> about trying boulardi for a long time now.

Nope. Jarrow was the only one that Whole Foods carried, and it has

some fillers.

> >I do that too, but wouldn't it be better to take them throughout the

> >day and have some that are enteric coated?

>

> Possibly, but that might depend on meal frequency, since you wouldn't want

> even an enteric-coated supplement to get too mixed up with food (though

> some (few) people seem to think probiotics implant better when taken with

> food) and also, there's data which strongly suggests that probiotics

> implant better when you're lying down, meaning right before bed is the best

> time to take them. But taking them throughout the day is unlikely to hurt,

> anyway, even if it cuts down on your value per dollar spent.

Well I've heard that before bed is best, but I'm sort of going on the

idea that I should bombard my body with them.

> >No idea. Like I said, everybody's reporting super-results from it, so

> >I was just throwing it out there. I haven't bought any for myself

> >yet, but I'm going to look into it. Suze just picked some up I think.

>

> I'll be interested to hear how it works out.

Me too.

> >Jarrow at Whole Foods. Fillers are maltodextrin, gelatin, aquous

> >enteric coating, magneisum stearate, ascorbic acid. I know you don't

> >like maltodextrin but I doubt there is any signifcant negative with

> >it.

>

> I haven't had time to write my maltodextrin-is-de-debbil post, but trust

> me, it's coming! <g>

Ok, I'm waiting...

> >Also it's been clinically tested,

> >according to the package, though I don't know if the test was with the

> >exact product or not.

>

> Unfortunately, it's often not. VSL3 (I think I'm remembering the name

> right) was tested as a pure, filler-free probiotic and then sold with corn

> starch. I actually saw some people reporting that they'd done great with

> it in the trials and then experienced hell from the commercial

> version. They had no clue why until the corn starch was unmasked.

Hmm. That sounds ugly.

> >Ouch, I'm sorry. I hope you get well soon.

>

> Thanks. It's appreciably nastier the second time around. It feels like

> someone's grinding broken glass into my eye. I'm going to try to chill out

> with a DVD before bed, but it's a little difficult with one eye weeping

> like crazy and hurting and the other trying to close in sympathy (or just

> because I suck at winking). I went to my ophthalmologist today and he gave

> my some antibiotic drops since corneal infections are apparently usually

> bacterial, but I'm supposed to go back on Saturday for in case this is a

> fungal infection. As it's seemingly a consequence of the mold exposure and

> as the drops are either not helping at all or are letting or making it get

> worse, I'm betting on the fungus. I'll probably call him tomorrow instead

> of waiting until Saturday post-farmers market, because this is hell.

Good luck.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 9/8/05, Sharon son <sharon@...> wrote:

>

>

> Curious if you've explored ozone/hydrogen peroxide therapies. They're

> accepted as part of mainstream medicine in Europe, but not so here. I've

> been reading up on them lately for Candida. Wondering if you've done

> research, and what your views are. TIA! Oh! Here's an example of an

> article talking about its use in Europe:

> http://houseofstrauss.co.uk/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=414

I know nothing about it. thanks for the link.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Masterjohn wrote:

>I seriously doubt that the average person with serious digestive

>problems can handle nuts. I suspect most people with a serious

>candida overgrowth would have such digestive problems.

>

>

>

<nodding> I think you're right, Chris. Speaking anecdotally, my kids

*could* have nuts prior to getting leaky gut, but now cannot tolerate

anything in the classic nut family. I suspect that it is more than an

IgG issue, since they recently reacted to pine nuts after eating them

for the first time. This tells me that something is afoot beyond

antibody production.....lectin issue, maybe? And these were NT-prepared

before they ate them.

--s

[Guest guest]

Idol wrote:

>Thanks. It's appreciably nastier the second time around. It feels like

>someone's grinding broken glass into my eye. I'm going to try to chill out

>with a DVD before bed, but it's a little difficult with one eye weeping

>like crazy and hurting and the other trying to close in sympathy (or just

>because I suck at winking). I went to my ophthalmologist today and he gave

>my some antibiotic drops since corneal infections are apparently usually

>bacterial, but I'm supposed to go back on Saturday for in case this is a

>fungal infection. As it's seemingly a consequence of the mold exposure and

>as the drops are either not helping at all or are letting or making it get

>worse, I'm betting on the fungus. I'll probably call him tomorrow instead

>of waiting until Saturday post-farmers market, because this is hell.

>

>

>

My profoundest sympathies, ! I've had a corneal ulcer with

pseudomonis <sp?> infection quite a few years back. No other agony

quite that intense. Are you getting anything for the pain?

--s

[Guest guest]

,

> Due to the liver factor, I tend to think that people like you

> and me ought

> to be particularly wary of honey. (I'll elaborate onlist or

> off if you'd

> like; I just don't know how much to say here.)

Feel free to post publicly. I'm very interested in your comments. Honey is

one of those foods that I hated until I started eating well. Now I can't

quite figure out how to integrate it properly into the program so any

experience you may have will be helpful.

> Thanks. I couldn't even believe it when I woke up this

> morning with my eye

> in pain and watering like crazy. I ate a tiny morsel of

> something sweet

> with one meal yesterday, which may have been the tipping factor, but

> obviously this fungus has been hanging around in my eye since that

> disastrous movie outing of last month.

Aaack. Sound really miserable. Hope things are better today.

Ron