Guest guest Posted June 29, 2010 Report Share Posted June 29, 2010 I'm surpised at the amount of focus the members of this group have on mold and so little on indoor air quality in general, specifically formaldehyde. I understand mold is an issue for some and I don't mean to down play that. The surprise is 98% of the California homes tested have formaldehyde above the State's recommended concentration. In fact, the typical California home is 4 times the maximium recommended concentration. This is based on a 24-hour average. Formaldehyde is very temperature sensitive with the peak concentration happening in the late afternoon into early evening when most people are home. The lowest concentration would be mornings and early afternoons when most are at work or school. Consequently, the effective exposure to the occupant is likely 6 to 8 times the maximium recommended concentration. California Air Resources Board's (CARB) report published December 15, 2009 states: " Nearly all homes (98%) had formaldehyde concentrations that exceeded guidelines for cancer and chronic irritation... " Summary: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/apr/past/04-310exec_sum.pdf Report: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/apr/past/04-310.pdf Researcher's PowerPoint: http://iee-sf.com/resources/pdf/ResidentialVentilation.pdf What triggered this posting is additional research. This time out of the East Coast, Conn. " LEED Certification - Where Energy Efficiency Collides with Human Health " http://www.ehhi.org/reports/leed/ There is a nice recap down the center of this web page with links on the right margin. The issue can be recapped on page 9 of their report: " The rise in childhood asthma, beginning in the early 1980s, has paralleled an increase in energy efficiency of buildings, and data suggest that increased chemical exposure in indoor environments may be the reason. Greater insulation, less ventilation, and a huge increase in new chemicals and products, within new buildings, collectively induce chemical exposures and potential health effects never previously experienced in human history. " I'm just wondering out loud, how many people here that think they are reacting to mold are in fact reacting to formaldehyde, some other chemical, opposed to mold or in addition to mold? I surprised that there isn't more posting on do-it-yourself test methods available to determine the concentration of different chemicals. Granted, you need to have some idea on what chemicals are likely to test for, such as formaldehyde. But the fact that there are no such postings is surprising to me. Especially, when many of the symptoms people describe fit common household chemicals in addtion to mold. I also wonder if that isn't why there are so many posting about cross contamination. Yes, cross contaminationn can happen but the frequency and easy described here makes me wonder if it isn't something other than mold causing the issue. Or maybe it is the several months that I've been reading is mold and the chemical discussion happened previously and will cycle through again. Puzzled and wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2010 Report Share Posted June 30, 2010 , Good points. I'm a consultant and in my experience about half the people who suspect mold exposure are reacting to something else. Of those who are being exposed to mold about a third of them are reacting to mold and also to other sources such as those you have identified. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- I'm surpised at the amount of focus the members of this group have on mold and so little on indoor air quality in general, specifically formaldehyde. I understand mold is an issue for some and I don't mean to down play that. The surprise is 98% of the California homes tested have formaldehyde above the State's recommended concentration. In fact, the typical California home is 4 times the maximium recommended concentration. This is based on a 24-hour average.Formaldehyde is very temperature sensitive with the peak concentration happening in the late afternoon into early evening when most people are home. The lowest concentration would be mornings and early afternoons when most are at work or school. Consequently, the effective exposure to the occupant is likely 6 to 8 times the maximium recommended concentration. California Air Resources Board's (CARB) report published December 15, 2009states: " Nearly all homes(98%)had formaldehyde concentrations that exceeded guidelines for cancer and chronic irritation... " Summary: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/apr/past/04- 310exec_sum.pdf Report: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/apr/past/04-310.pdf Researcher'sPowerPoint: http://iee- sf.com/resources/pdf/ResidentialVentilation.pdf What triggered this posting is additional research. This time out of the East Coast, Conn. " LEED Certification - Where Energy Efficiency Collides with Human Health " http://www.ehhi.org/reports/leed/ There is a nice recap down the center of this web page with links on the right margin.The issue can be recapped on page 9 of their report: " The rise in childhood asthma, beginning in the early 1980s, has paralleled an increase in energy efficiency of buildings, and data suggest that increased chemical exposure in indoor environments may be the reason. Greater insulation, less ventilation, and a huge increase in new chemicals and products, within new buildings, collectively induce chemical exposures and potential health effects never previously experienced in human history. " I'm just wondering out loud, how many people here that think they are reacting to mold are in fact reacting to formaldehyde, some other chemical, opposed to mold or in addition to mold? I surprised that there isn't more posting on do-it-yourself test methods available to determine the concentration of different chemicals. Granted, you need to have some idea on what chemicals are likely to test for, such as formaldehyde. But the fact that there are no such postings is surprising to me. Especially, when many of the symptoms people describe fit common household chemicals in addtion to mold. I also wonder if that isn't why there are so many posting about cross contamination. Yes, cross contaminationn can happen but the frequency and easy described here makes me wonder if it isn't something other than mold causing the issue. Or maybe it is the several months that I've been reading is mold and the chemical discussion happened previously and will cycle through again. Puzzled and wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2010 Report Share Posted June 30, 2010 I don't want to take anything away from the health & financial problems caused by water damage & mold, and the discussion of them on this group, as that's why I joined the group, BUT just want to say that personally I am finding 's comments EXTREMELY RELEVANT as I search for safe rental housing here in SF Bay Area....... Will share a little of this with you here, read on if interested, or stop here if not! I am mostly targeting homes in the 5 - 15 years old range, at least 5 years old so that they will have off gassed the worst of the toxic building material poisons (I realize they never completely off gas though) and less than 15 yo so they are less likely to have developed water damage, as toxic mold is what drove us out of our home of 21 years, and is clearly a contributing factor to my 20 yo's chronic debilitating illness... Not even looking in San Francisco, the housing stock is by and large too old, city pollution, and very densely forested w/cell towers/masts and wifi now pervasive... Today, I broke my " age of house " rule and looked at a house that was custom built in the 1980's, on 10 acres, surrounded by clean air generating trees but in the sun, with lots of great features, tile floor on living level (we'd throw my son's bed in the living room with tile floor and keep him out of the carpeted bedrooms), lots of natural light and screened windows for lots of outdoor air flow, built in sauna for the detox protocol, pool and hot tub, and AMAZINGLY while in the hills also in a little indentation that has no cell phone reception...yet only 15 minute drive to the freeway/civilization. And guess what, the only worry I have about this place is potential water damage, saw a couple places where the window sills had water stains and stupid stupid stupid the master bathroom is carpeted, a recipe for mold problems seems to me..... If our application gets accepted I will bring in a bau biologie consultant to do a walk thru and let me know if we should go for it or keep looking.... (Carl, let me know if I should bring in another kind of healthy house consultant???) In this process we have looked at a couple so called green apartments that were so toxic we couldn't wait to get out, the air was so full of chemical smells...horrible...but of course they probably have tight energy efficient windows and energy efficient appliances and so can be labeled " green " , what a joke.... and when I ask about flooring, I have started asking if they have " real " wood floors because most of the wood floors today are actually plastic made to look like wood....just read last week that little kids in vinyl floor homes have more asthma/allergies.... I mostly end up inquiring about custom built homes, as they are more likely to be better built, some with less toxic materials, and feel fortunate that in today's economic climate there seems to be lots to choose from (although the clean healthy homes are maybe 1% or less of what's out there....) We also drove by a home today on a hill looking out over the very distant Pacific ocean, looked like a great little house, still in the sunny zone (vs the fog) but gets sea breezes, on 5 acres, but right next to a cell tower.....cross that one off the list... And we also visited a house where a huge musty smell jumped out at us when the owner opened the door to greet us, and of course he was oblivious to it... I kind of think that in the end we have to " pick our poison " , there is no safe place, we leave the city to get away from city pollution and all of a sudden we are in the suburbs with all the idiots using lawn chem, etc. probably less safely than the conventional farmers who at least possibly know how to apply the chemicals...I asked one woman if they used chemicals in house or yard and she responded " terminix " but they say they don't use any " bad " chemicals (oh, so only the good chemicals, eh???), and we are looking farther north yet, santa rosa/sebastopol and I cringe as we pass all the vineyards....that was a nice thing about the house up in the hills we saw today, surrounded more by natural foliage than farmland, although there are plenty of vineyards all around in the valley and I have no idea how far these chemicals travel....probably a long ways... Sometimes I wonder if we wouldn't be better off in a house at the beach away from the agriculture, but then we are in the damp/fog where it is more prone to mold......I wonder if the pesticide exposures aren't the worst???? or the molds, or?????? And so the search continues.... Any advice appreciated, what a journey.....no dull moment that is for sure, and even with the burdens of all this guess I should count my lucky stars and feel blessed that I myself have good health and the strength to persevere... I have quickly learned not to ask too many questions when I inquire by e- mail or phone, people don't understand the issues, and then they won't even show me their properties, instead I wait and ask the questions when I get there, wastes more of everyone's time, but otherwise I don't even get my foot in the door.... On another note, Mayleen my heart bleeds for your loss, I can't even imagine the pain, bless you and hang in there!!! Sue V. >Interesting comment but as Carl states over half may be reacting >to something else, it still leaves half, which is alot and there are few >places to go for help with mold exposure help outside of this group so >by comparison to the number of people suffering from mold exposure, this >is a tiny number of complaints. Until you go through it yourself, it is >difficult to understand. > > >> >> I'm surpised at the amount of focus the members of this group have on >mold and so little on indoor air quality in general, specifically >formaldehyde. I understand mold is an issue for some and I don't mean to >down play that. The surprise is 98% of the California homes tested have >formaldehyde above the State's recommended concentration. In fact, the >typical California home is 4 times the maximium recommended >concentration. This is based on a 24-hour average. Formaldehyde is very >temperature sensitive with the peak concentration happening in the late >afternoon into early evening when most people are home. The lowest >concentration would be mornings and early afternoons when most are at >work or school. Consequently, the effective exposure to the occupant is >likely 6 to 8 times the maximium recommended concentration. >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2010 Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 What is a bau biologie consultant sue? p.s. I had other indoor air problems: lead paint I had sanded and inhaled, a gas leak in the basement and mastic glue fumes left over after removing tiles on a sunny back enclosed porch. I just haven't needed advise or help with them. I had state inspectors come and mark areas with lead paint, and I will have to wait until remnants of mastic glue odor leaves the porch before it is useable. I may have to remove drywall out there that may have absorbed the odor. Will probably use May's tip on figuring out if the drywall has absorbed the mastic glue odor. Usually it's not as difficult to figure out as mold is but we talk about issues people are worried about is the answer, so if more people are worried about something else, those will be the topics. We don't limit the group to mold discussion. Just that is what brought most people here initially. > > I don't want to take anything away from the health & financial problems > caused by water damage & mold, and the discussion of them on this group, > as that's why I joined the group, BUT just want to say that personally I > am finding 's comments EXTREMELY RELEVANT as I search for safe > rental housing here in SF Bay Area....... Will share a little of this > with you here, read on if interested, or stop here if not! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Subject: Re: Indoor Air Quality Date Sent: Friday, July 2, 2010 11:54 AM From: sue <svican@...> <Icare_dou@...> Hi , Thanks for your perspective, bottom line, unless the house was built in a healthy fashion, it stays unhealthy, right? And even if built healthy, if it develops mold problems, then it gets unhealthy.... And, if you live somewhere relatively unpolluted where the climate allows the windows to be open lots of the time, then that's the thing to do. I can tell you that Dr. Rea prefers that my son be around chemicals than molds, because I asked him if he'd rather we stay in a conventional toxic hotel or back to our toxic moldy house and he said the hotel was a better option while looking for a better place to stay. I know we will not find anything perfect, it doesn't exist, and especially when you are looking to rent, not buy... Since we don't know what climate etc. might help my son thrive, we do not want to sell our existing house and lock ourselves into another, better to stay relatively flexible with the ability to up and move when needed...travel lightly....the vagabond life.... And fiberglass insulation, it's everywhere, in every age house, how do you avoid unless you build your own (which we may do, but first have to settle on a geographic location...)??? Where are you located geographically? I need someone (and think I have someone pending reference checks) who is local and can do inexpensive house inspections on short notice to rule in or out specific properties.. Also, I am familiar with ERMI, used it on my own home, it was the first indication that there were hidden toxic mold problems, unfortunately we didn't know enuf at the time and the doctor didn't know enuf to push us out of our house then, of course this was after years and years of exposure anyway....the mold plates I did on a sunny spring day a couple years earlier showed nothing.... And the problem with mold is that it can develop in a tiny area and blow all over the whole house, that's what happened in our house.... Carl & Jack, do you agree that I should look at older housing that doesn't have double pane windows or fiberglass insulation? That rules out almost all housing these days.... What era of housing is likely to be the healthiest, assuming it hasn't developed big mold problems like our SF house? >Sue, > >Finding a not known to be unhealthy home is in fact each. I think you >are creating your problem by the 5-15 year old critera. Bascially any >home with double pane windows and/or fiberglass wall insulation is >likely to give you a chemical problem. Considering that 47 year old >carpet underlayment got room air up to 93 ppb the off gassing goes on >forever. True there is an initial drop but the long-term equilbrium is >reached in months and usually before the building is finished construction. > >You can work with these " newer " or " greener " homes by having the windows >opened all the time. You can also change out bathroom fans to 24 x365 >fans to get some additional ventilation. Formaldehyde is the most common >gas and can be tested for accurately with a direct real time reading >Interscan. These are expensive $2,500 and need quarterly maintence and >nearly daily use. The practical solution for someone in your situtation >is active color change tubes. Need a $200 pump and after that the tests >run about $10 each and can be done for a wide range of chemicals. > >The mold issue is actually easier to deal with. With an ERMI test with >at $310 lab fee you find out how moldy the home is compared to other >homes. This is sort of an historical look at the home so you can find >out about past issues. The more common and cheaper version of air >sampling only tells you about the present. > >You may want to check out > >http://www.IndoorAirAnswers.com >http://www.HealthyBuilding.net > >I'd be happy to help you work through the selection process. > > > ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Again I want to say I can personally attest to the quality and professionalism of Mr. Grimes. @, you bring up some really valid points and I dont know that there are any easy answers to the questions you propose. In my experience it was pretty obvious of the mold exposure but never the less for the most of the people I cant imagine the process needed to go through to figure that out unless it is so obvious and even then you never know. It could indeed be any of a number of things and even sometimes all of the above. There seem to be so many things in our air that are harmful these days that it becomes over whelming to try to figure that all out as the days go on. I fear it will only get worse at least in these south eastern states now due to the other dangerous things floating in the air from the gulf disaster that you cannot readily identify nor see or smell. That is a perfect example of what you are saying where the reactions are so similar that for anyone to begin to get ill now I feel sorry because it would seem to be impossible to pin point what they are reacting too and as with everything else for the most part going to the doctor will result in the same empty look from them and so the answers will be limited if there are even any to have? Thanks for the post. I was interested in your thoughts. ________________________________ From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> Sent: Wed, June 30, 2010 6:44:45 AM Subject: Re: [] Indoor Air Quality  , Good points. I'm a consultant and in my experience about half the people who suspect mold exposure are reacting to something else. Of those who are being exposed to mold about a third of them are reacting to mold and also to other sources such as those you have identified. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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