Re: Carl - Washing Clothes -- and remediating

[Guest guest]

Carl,

Thanks for this response. 

I have two questions for you; If there are residual mycotoxins/VOC's left in the

washable items are they fixed into the fabric? I get that mold, dead or alive

has a certain size to it and therefor possibly the hot wash with detergent can

remove the mold-- but what actually are the remaining myco's and VOC's? Are they

of a gaseous nature? What is it that makes it so much more difficult to remove?

And how (please forgive me if I'm asking an old question) does this relate to

the efforts to remediate a home? If memory serves, the idea is that the thorough

wiping down of hard surfaces can remove the mold, myco and VOC's? I know from

past posts that the guarrantee of a total cleaning is not always likley if

something is missed. But otherwise it is merely the fact that hard surfaces are

more easily cleaned of myco's and VOC's just because it is a hard surface? 

Hope I'm making some sense here and not asking too elementary a question for

someone who's been here for so long. Thanks very much or your answer and

patience.

Sam 

--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> wrote

Spores and other parts of the whole mold organism (spores are

the seeds, not all there is to mold growth) can generate VOCs

and mycotoxins. These are a problem but they can't be killed

because they aren't alive. They are what live mold generates, sort

of like waste products.

But residues of them can be a problem and a difficult one at that.

This is why some on this group say using ammonia will help, that

it will alter or change those to something different. Some have

said it works but others have said it doesn't. But what I and others

caution is that if you are reactive to ammonia then washing

clothes with it probably isn't a good idea. If you don't react to

ammonia, go ahead.

[Guest guest]

Sam,

I'll take a crack at answering your questions. They require some

explanation about the difference between mold growth, mold

spores, what mold is made of, and what mold growth gives off.

Also, the difference between the sizes of particles compared to

the sizes of molecules. So, while your questions are elementary

the answers are not.

Mold spores are like seeds for trees. Spores are not the whole

" plant, " just the reproductive part of the mold grow (biomass).

Spores are the same size as other particles in the airl, but too

small to see with the naked eye. Visible mold is a seed (spore)

which germinates when damp and well fed and grows into a

" plant " or biomass. As the biomass grows it can become large

enough to see with the naked eye as a tiny dot. More growth and

it gets even bigger looking more like what we commonly identify

as mold.

The spores and biomass (hyphae) are made up of cells, just like

our body and organs are composed of cells. The cells are make

up of other " parts " such as proteins, glucans and others often

referred to here a " components of mold growth. " It is the proteins

which trigger the allergic reactions. Other components trigger

other types of reactions.

The biomass (colony) also oozes a liquid of enzymes. This is how

the mold plant eats. It doesn't have a digestive system to take in

food and digest it inside. Instead, it digests its food outside its

cells with enzymes which breakdown the surface material the

colony is growing on. The result of this " digestion " then oozes

inside the cells through the cell walls of the colony.

While growing, mold can generate molecules of gasses called

volatile organic compounds VOCs. Or MVOCs, with the M

indicating they are from mold. This is the musty or mildewy smell.

These are analogous to our body odor, for example.

Mold can also create secondary metabolites ( " digestion " ) called

mycotoxins. The purpose of mycotoxins is to protect their type of

mold from other types of mold in the vicinity. They need to do this

to protect their food source and to not be cannibalized by other

types of molds and bacteria. Mycotoxins are chemical molecules,

not particles.

Spores are in the range of 1-10 microns. To understand that size,

consider that human hair is about 100 microns in diameter. We

can see particles as small as about 10 microns with the naked

eye under ideal conditions. Most mold spores are between 1 and

10 microns. We can't see them. The first colonies are slightly

larger than a spore and still too small to be seen. As the colony

grows still larger, bigger than 10 microns and more like 20-30

microns in diameter then we can begin to see them.

Spores are particles as are hyphae. They are everywhere and will

almost always be identified in typical " house dust. " They can be

removed from surfaces like dust. The harder and smoother the

surface the easier it is to remove it. The rougher the surface the

harder it is to remove. Just like for dusting a table top or removing

dirt and grease from surfaces.

MVOCs and mycotoxins are not particles. They are 100s to

1000s of times smaller. Therefore, HEPA filters won't effectively

remove them like they will for particles 0.3 microns and larger.

They will fit into smaller pores or the " roughness " of surfaces so

they are harder to remove. A glass surface, for example, is slick

to our big hand and still very smooth to a particle. Any

irregularities are much smaller than the particles. But they appear

more like a mountain range to the extremely tiny molecules.

Chemical molecules react with other substances even when

particles can't. So while it is possilbe to remove mycotoxins and

MVOCs you probably won't remove all of it. Much like how

fragrances soak into wood or cloth. Also, the chemicals can react

with molecules on other surfaces, making it impossible to

remove. Again, much like how fragrances combine with surfaces

or clothing and can't be removed.

Because of these characteristics of chemical molecules washing

clothes may not be enough to sufficiently remove them from

clothing and other porous surfaces. They may even be nearly

impossible to clean from hard, smooth surfaces.

Spores and hyphae are more easily removed from clothing by

washing but can become physically entangled with the fibers,

requiring multiple wash/dry cycles before they are wearable.

Finally, MVOCs and mycotoxins are not alive so they cannot be

killed. And while killing mold will stop the production of new

MVOCs and mycotoxins it doesn't remove what is already

created. Neither does killing mold remove the spores and hyphal

particles.

Because the components of the spore and hyphae trigger

reactions they need to be removed. Because killing just leaves

dead bodies, it doesn't remove them. Also, killing them could well

cause them the dry and fragment, creating more particles. And

the smaller they are they more deeply they can penetrate into the

lungs, for example.

I hope this hasn't been too confusing but to answer your

questions in a way that makes sense we have to understand the

difference between particles, cells, cell components, fragments,

growth, and the various chemicals the growth gives off.

And we haven't even mentioned the other half-dozen or so

components of cell walls and emmanations, or bacteria and

endotoxins, or the off-gassing from water damaged materials, or

amplification of macro-organisms, or amobea, and on and on.

Or how our body reacts to these exposure sources. How allergy

is different than toxicity and how sensitization is not the linear

dose-response curve of classical toxicology.

This is very complex and but a few reasons why a couple of mold

samples cannot accurately represent conditions and why simple

testing can show " nothing " despite the fact that we still react.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Carl,

Thanks for this response.

I have two questions for you; If there are residual mycotoxins/VOC's left

in the washable items are they fixed into the fabric? I get that mold, dead

or alive has a certain size to it and therefor possibly the hot wash with

detergent can remove the mold-- but what actually are the remaining

myco's and VOC's? Are they of a gaseous nature? What is it that makes it

so much more difficult to remove?

And how (please forgive me if I'm asking an old question) does this relate

to the efforts to remediate a home? If memory serves, the idea is that the

thorough wiping down of hard surfaces can remove the mold, myco and

VOC's? I know from past posts that the guarrantee of a total cleaning is

not always likley if something is missed. But otherwise it is merely the

fact that hard surfaces are more easily cleaned of myco's and VOC's just

because it is a hard surface?

Hope I'm making some sense here and not asking too elementary a

question for someone who's been here for so long. Thanks very much or

your answer and patience.

Sam

--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> wrote

Spores and other parts of the whole mold organism (spores are

the seeds, not all there is to mold growth) can generate VOCs

and mycotoxins. These are a problem but they can't be killed

because they aren't alive. They are what live mold generates, sort

of like waste products.

But residues of them can be a problem and a difficult one at that.

This is why some on this group say using ammonia will help, that

it will alter or change those to something different. Some have

said it works but others have said it doesn't. But what I and others

caution is that if you are reactive to ammonia then washing

clothes with it probably isn't a good idea. If you don't react to

ammonia, go ahead.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Carl, wouldn't it be fair to say that really it all boils done to getting

something clean enough that you dont react to it,

which would be different for everyone.

but also, at that point and time when you have just gotten out or in process of

moveing, ect. it might be really hard to even reconize exactly whats getting to

you at any point and time, and if a person could, maybe just storage of

belongings , to deal with at a later date

or something is the best advice.

just as mold and mycotoxins are to some extent everywhere, we do live with a

certain level. isnt it fair to say there is no true advoidance possable, only

lesser advoidance.

and maybe, with lesser advoidance, somewhere down the road you

surely well be able to tolerate more with a lesser reaction than before.

maybe between this and possable denatureing of stored belongings, over time, and

mutiple cleanings, some things well be more tolerated.

one thing some have to consider is that it's possable to have a hypersensitive

reaction to many things and also have a distorted sence of smell from damage to

those sences at the same time.

because they are not based on exactly the same thing.

because damage can vary, it may cause some to not reconize if they truely get

things clean enough or not.

on the other hand, lesser damage to the sences may actually cause someone to

never fell they can clean things to a good enough point,

and because we react to tiny amounts, they would say it cant be done.

however they could be reacting to their underarm deorderant or something else

alltogether.

yet in actuality, they may sooner be able to tolerate their cleaned,dried,stored

belongings than others.

so seems storage is the best choise. and really if not tiny mold spots are

visable and the storage area is kept dry, a simple dusting of objects while

outside before storeing them may be good enough.

theres just no way to cover all the varities given each exposure and each

related health hazard.

but, yes,I had those tiny spots of mold growth on many belongings and it's

better to get rid of them, maybe sun and air would help with that. dry air and

heat. you ever been to a antique auction when it rains? best time to get them

cheap, but I went to one, one rainy day after my exposure and the smell from

everything made me have to leave.

had it been a dry sunny day, it probaly still would have gotten to me but I may

not have been as able to know what it was that was getting to me. so it's hard

to say. maybe just storage is the best answer.

just for the non-replaceable items.

one thing about doing it that way is any time later you wanted to see if they

still afect you it wouldn't take much, just sticking your head in the door. but

really, at the time you are going through this nightmare, it's not a good time

to try to judge anything by reaction.

I think alot of people dont reaconize what exactly has happened to their sences

and I think they are so messed up at that point it's not a good time to judge

anything by that.

ps, wouldn't it be great if we had something put together on this subject that

we could file and repost everytime someone new came here with the same million

questions.

>

> Sam,

>

> I'll take a crack at answering your questions. They require some

> explanation about the difference between mold growth, mold

> spores, what mold is made of, and what mold growth gives off.

> Also, the difference between the sizes of particles compared to

> the sizes of molecules. So, while your questions are elementary

> the answers are not.

>

> Mold spores are like seeds for trees. Spores are not the whole

> " plant, " just the reproductive part of the mold grow (biomass).

> Spores are the same size as other particles in the airl, but too

> small to see with the naked eye. Visible mold is a seed (spore)

> which germinates when damp and well fed and grows into a

> " plant " or biomass. As the biomass grows it can become large

> enough to see with the naked eye as a tiny dot. More growth and

> it gets even bigger looking more like what we commonly identify

> as mold.

>

> The spores and biomass (hyphae) are made up of cells, just like

> our body and organs are composed of cells. The cells are make

> up of other " parts " such as proteins, glucans and others often

> referred to here a " components of mold growth. " It is the proteins

> which trigger the allergic reactions. Other components trigger

> other types of reactions.

>

> The biomass (colony) also oozes a liquid of enzymes. This is how

> the mold plant eats. It doesn't have a digestive system to take in

> food and digest it inside. Instead, it digests its food outside its

> cells with enzymes which breakdown the surface material the

> colony is growing on. The result of this " digestion " then oozes

> inside the cells through the cell walls of the colony.

>

> While growing, mold can generate molecules of gasses called

> volatile organic compounds VOCs. Or MVOCs, with the M

> indicating they are from mold. This is the musty or mildewy smell.

> These are analogous to our body odor, for example.

>

> Mold can also create secondary metabolites ( " digestion " ) called

> mycotoxins. The purpose of mycotoxins is to protect their type of

> mold from other types of mold in the vicinity. They need to do this

> to protect their food source and to not be cannibalized by other

> types of molds and bacteria. Mycotoxins are chemical molecules,

> not particles.

>

> Spores are in the range of 1-10 microns. To understand that size,

> consider that human hair is about 100 microns in diameter. We

> can see particles as small as about 10 microns with the naked

> eye under ideal conditions. Most mold spores are between 1 and

> 10 microns. We can't see them. The first colonies are slightly

> larger than a spore and still too small to be seen. As the colony

> grows still larger, bigger than 10 microns and more like 20-30

> microns in diameter then we can begin to see them.

>

> Spores are particles as are hyphae. They are everywhere and will

> almost always be identified in typical " house dust. " They can be

> removed from surfaces like dust. The harder and smoother the

> surface the easier it is to remove it. The rougher the surface the

> harder it is to remove. Just like for dusting a table top or removing

> dirt and grease from surfaces.

>

> MVOCs and mycotoxins are not particles. They are 100s to

> 1000s of times smaller. Therefore, HEPA filters won't effectively

> remove them like they will for particles 0.3 microns and larger.

> They will fit into smaller pores or the " roughness " of surfaces so

> they are harder to remove. A glass surface, for example, is slick

> to our big hand and still very smooth to a particle. Any

> irregularities are much smaller than the particles. But they appear

> more like a mountain range to the extremely tiny molecules.

>

> Chemical molecules react with other substances even when

> particles can't. So while it is possilbe to remove mycotoxins and

> MVOCs you probably won't remove all of it. Much like how

> fragrances soak into wood or cloth. Also, the chemicals can react

> with molecules on other surfaces, making it impossible to

> remove. Again, much like how fragrances combine with surfaces

> or clothing and can't be removed.

>

> Because of these characteristics of chemical molecules washing

> clothes may not be enough to sufficiently remove them from

> clothing and other porous surfaces. They may even be nearly

> impossible to clean from hard, smooth surfaces.

>

> Spores and hyphae are more easily removed from clothing by

> washing but can become physically entangled with the fibers,

> requiring multiple wash/dry cycles before they are wearable.

>

> Finally, MVOCs and mycotoxins are not alive so they cannot be

> killed. And while killing mold will stop the production of new

> MVOCs and mycotoxins it doesn't remove what is already

> created. Neither does killing mold remove the spores and hyphal

> particles.

>

> Because the components of the spore and hyphae trigger

> reactions they need to be removed. Because killing just leaves

> dead bodies, it doesn't remove them. Also, killing them could well

> cause them the dry and fragment, creating more particles. And

> the smaller they are they more deeply they can penetrate into the

> lungs, for example.

>

> I hope this hasn't been too confusing but to answer your

> questions in a way that makes sense we have to understand the

> difference between particles, cells, cell components, fragments,

> growth, and the various chemicals the growth gives off.

>

> And we haven't even mentioned the other half-dozen or so

> components of cell walls and emmanations, or bacteria and

> endotoxins, or the off-gassing from water damaged materials, or

> amplification of macro-organisms, or amobea, and on and on.

>

> Or how our body reacts to these exposure sources. How allergy

> is different than toxicity and how sensitization is not the linear

> dose-response curve of classical toxicology.

>

> This is very complex and but a few reasons why a couple of mold

> samples cannot accurately represent conditions and why simple

> testing can show " nothing " despite the fact that we still react.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

> Carl,

> Thanks for this response.

> I have two questions for you; If there are residual mycotoxins/VOC's left

> in the washable items are they fixed into the fabric? I get that mold, dead

> or alive has a certain size to it and therefor possibly the hot wash with

> detergent can remove the mold-- but what actually are the remaining

> myco's and VOC's? Are they of a gaseous nature? What is it that makes it

> so much more difficult to remove?

> And how (please forgive me if I'm asking an old question) does this relate

> to the efforts to remediate a home? If memory serves, the idea is that the

> thorough wiping down of hard surfaces can remove the mold, myco and

> VOC's? I know from past posts that the guarrantee of a total cleaning is

> not always likley if something is missed. But otherwise it is merely the

> fact that hard surfaces are more easily cleaned of myco's and VOC's just

> because it is a hard surface?

> Hope I'm making some sense here and not asking too elementary a

> question for someone who's been here for so long. Thanks very much or

> your answer and patience.

> Sam

>

> --- On Tue, 2/23/10, Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> wrote

>

> Spores and other parts of the whole mold organism (spores are

>

> the seeds, not all there is to mold growth) can generate VOCs

>

> and mycotoxins. These are a problem but they can't be killed

>

> because they aren't alive. They are what live mold generates, sort

>

> of like waste products.

>

> But residues of them can be a problem and a difficult one at that.

>

> This is why some on this group say using ammonia will help, that

>

> it will alter or change those to something different. Some have

>

> said it works but others have said it doesn't. But what I and others

>

> caution is that if you are reactive to ammonia then washing

>

> clothes with it probably isn't a good idea. If you don't react to

>

> ammonia, go ahead.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much Carl for taking the time to do clarify the differences between

mold, mvoc's,and  mycotoxins, spores and hyphae. I want to really absorb all of

this as much as I possibly can before I even think to ask any follow up

questions. But also wanted to send you an immediate thank you to let you know

how much I appreciate your writing this for me and the rest of us on the

list.God bless,Sam

--- On Wed, 2/24/10, Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> wrote

 

Sam,

I'll take a crack at answering your questions. They require some

explanation about the difference between mold growth, mold

spores, what mold is made of, and what mold growth gives off. 

[Guest guest]

Sam,

You're welcome. Just keep in mind this is a broad, rough outline

of the questions and issues. Some of the details are still

important so don't assume this is the whole story or that all can

be taken literally. I wrote it to be more understandable (hopefully!)

I started writing this while listening to a Webinar by AIHA for

updates to their Green Book (Recognition, Evaluation, and

Control of Indoor Mold, 2008). They are presenting new data on

the ultra-fine particles (well below the <0.3 microns that a HEPA

can stop) and how they affect the lung and inflamation, both

directly and as a precursor to other conditions.

What was of particular interest is that many of the mycotoxins

assumed to be in water damaged buildings have been difficult to

be found because they aren't always there. HOWEVER, they

have identified other mycotoxins and toxic agents which are in

WDBs, which can be detected if they are looked for, and several

have well known, established impacts on immune systems.

They emphasized that there is still no definitive causality

according to strict scientific criteria, but the science has definitely

and strongly advanced toward that conclusion rather than away

from it.

I recognized a couple of others from this group on the Webinar

so I'd like to hear if you interpreted the meeting in the same way I

did or if my enthusiasm increased my hopes.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Thank you so much Carl for taking the time to do clarify the differences

between mold, mvoc's,and mycotoxins, spores and hyphae. I want to

really absorb all of this as much as I possibly can before I even think to

ask any follow up questions. But also wanted to send you an immediate

thank you to let you know how much I appreciate your writing this for

me and the rest of us on the list.God bless,Sam

--- On Wed, 2/24/10, Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> wrote

Sam,

I'll take a crack at answering your questions. They require some

explanation about the difference between mold growth, mold

spores, what mold is made of, and what mold growth gives off.