Re: Re: answer-Urine Mycotoxin Testing

[Guest guest]

ppb is the the size that they are able to detect.  Tricothecenes can to be

detected at .02ppb. Ochratoxins and aflatoxins they start to measure at higher

levels.  To know how small that is , take a grain of salt and divide into a

thousand pieces.  1 of those pieces is a ppb.  All of the mycotoxin love to

hide and like to get stored in your fat.  Just cause you didn't piss it out

doesn't mean its not there.  Also remember there are 14 mycotoxins they can't

test for.  

Hope that helps

I am with you there Robin, its confusing. The one and only time mine came

out negative, I was told that " possibly my body was not dumping mycotoxins at

the time. " Apparently you can get a false negative. It was suggested I do it

again, but who has $7-800. to throw around just to " try it. " D

what are ppb of mycotoxins? I took the 700$ test and it came back negative.

after my results were in and I posted to the list, Dr T said he suggests early

am.. I askhad asked real time before I tested if should be an early am or 24

hour which made more sense to me and they said no.. just any time of day.. very

frustrated with this lab and confused about the neg on the test.

[Guest guest]

just goes to show the imperfections and limitations of any kind of testing....

>I agree with you K. I know they were there, but it is frustrating when

>you spend the money and have the test done and it comes out negative.

>Thats all I am saying. I knew a patient here that did that test to

[Guest guest]

This is an example of what happens all too often for many of us. Because it was

the wrong test for the wrong question because it had not been determined that

mycotoxins were the cause. Especially for such a critical question as saving a

marriage.

Even if mycotoxins had been detected, that by itself doesn't prove much beyond

" presence " above the minimal level of detection for that specific test.

Maybe mycotoxins were present but the test wasn't sensitive enough. Or it was

for the wrong mycotoxin. She may have been reacting to a different component of

WDB like endotoxins. Or the VOCs. Or something not mold related. Or a

combination. How many on Sickbuildings have recently posted their realization

that it was more than mold?

Yes, " something " was making her sick. Putting all the eggs is one basket based

on a belief (which I'm certain was more of a certainty than a belief or a hope)

rarely leads to the intended result. Even a broken clock has the correct time

twice a day and is within 10-15 mienutes (close enough) more frequently.

This is why an assessment with a detailed history is sometimes so critical.

Let me give a different, and personal, example. I recently had my annual

physical and told my Dr (who usually follows my lead on mold issues) that I

needed more fluconazole more often. And I gave my reasons. His response was

" there are at least three, maybe more reasons for what is happening. "

He asked questions and narrowed it down to two. Only then did he order lab

tests. The answer would be revealed by not just one result but by the

combination of results. Furthermore, the meaning of that combination of test

results would be determined by history and the particular combination of

symptoms. And he told me ahead of time which combination would mean what

treatment.

There is science involved as a basis but the successful diagnosis and treatment

is an art best practiced by informed professional judgment.

That said, I and you can and should self-treat and self-medicate most of the

time but if it doesn't produce the desired and expected results then I need

expert help.

Which leads to the crux of the problem for most on Sickbuildings: What do we do

when the experts don't know, or there isn't one available for us?

That is what we struggle with every day. Appreciate rather than fight the

complexity. Play detective with an open mind, challenging what you find rather

than striving to prove what you believe because that's what we all talk about.

We have a legitimate need to share common experiences - it's healing and we

learn valuable information and critical tips. And we also have a powerful drive

to get well. But sometimes the overly ready acceptance of what is shared

interferes with what is actually needed for my or your specific situation.

We have to be willing to go against the prevailing wisdom of our support group

sometimes in order to get well. Difficult dilemma, to say the least. And

appreciating that in each other may be the most healing gift of all.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] Re: answer-Urine Mycotoxin Testing

I agree with you K. I know they were there, but it is frustrating when you

spend the money and have the test done and it comes out negative. Thats all I am

saying. I knew a patient here that did that test to " prove " to her husband that

their house was making her extremely ill, her test came out negative and her

" proof " went out the window...and so did her husband.

>

> ppb is the the size that they are able to detect.  Tricothecenes can to be

detected at .02ppb. Ochratoxins and aflatoxins they start to measure at higher

levels.  To know how small that is , take a grain of salt and divide into a

thousand pieces.  1 of those pieces is a ppb.  All of the mycotoxin love to

hide and like to get stored in your fat.  Just cause you didn't piss it out

doesn't mean its not there.  Also remember there are 14 mycotoxins they can't

test for.  

> Hope that helps

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good points Carl. As both you and I have said there is too much talk on

molds and mycotoxins. Many other conditions in WDB can lead to illness,

e.g. Mycobacterium and MAC, Gram negative bacteria and endotoxins leading to

respiratory symptoms and aggravation of existing asthma, MVOCs and VOCs. I

recommend mycotoxin testing only after the specific fungi are identified

that produce trichothecenes, aflatoxins and ochratoxin. These tests do not

detect anything else. Also, endotoxins can cause a fever by stimulating the

up regulation of IL1. Finally, there are two strains of Stachybotrys, one

that produces trichothecenes and other spirocyclic drimanes.

Re: [] Re: answer-Urine Mycotoxin Testing

This is an example of what happens all too often for many of us. Because it

was the wrong test for the wrong question because it had not been determined

that mycotoxins were the cause. Especially for such a critical question as

saving a marriage.

Even if mycotoxins had been detected, that by itself doesn't prove much

beyond " presence " above the minimal level of detection for that specific

test.

Maybe mycotoxins were present but the test wasn't sensitive enough. Or it

was for the wrong mycotoxin. She may have been reacting to a different

component of WDB like endotoxins. Or the VOCs. Or something not mold

related. Or a combination. How many on Sickbuildings have recently posted

their realization that it was more than mold?

Yes, " something " was making her sick. Putting all the eggs is one basket

based on a belief (which I'm certain was more of a certainty than a belief

or a hope) rarely leads to the intended result. Even a broken clock has the

correct time twice a day and is within 10-15 mienutes (close enough) more

frequently.

This is why an assessment with a detailed history is sometimes so critical.

[Guest guest]

what are spirocyclic drimanes? thanks, sue v

>Good points Carl. As both you and I have said there is too much talk on

>molds and mycotoxins. Many other conditions in WDB can lead to illness,

>e.g. Mycobacterium and MAC, Gram negative bacteria and endotoxins leading to

>respiratory symptoms and aggravation of existing asthma, MVOCs and VOCs. I

[Guest guest]

They are mycotoxins . See the below. They are very toxic.

http://www.mycologia.org/cgi/reprint/94/3/392

Re: [] Re: answer-Urine Mycotoxin Testing

what are spirocyclic drimanes? thanks, sue v

>Good points Carl. As both you and I have said there is too much talk on

>molds and mycotoxins. Many other conditions in WDB can lead to illness,

>e.g. Mycobacterium and MAC, Gram negative bacteria and endotoxins leading to

>respiratory symptoms and aggravation of existing asthma, MVOCs and VOCs. I

[Guest guest]

Are there any tests a regular Dr can do to see if you have

re-exposure. OR  Can you take the VCS test for this ??  Please

any answers .......

 

  

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

Sent: Sun, December 5, 2010 11:42:36 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: answer-Urine Mycotoxin Testing

 

They are mycotoxins . See the below. They are very toxic.

http://www.mycologia.org/cgi/reprint/94/3/392

Re: [] Re: answer-Urine Mycotoxin Testing

what are spirocyclic drimanes? thanks, sue v

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the correction and very good info.

From: <scottarmour@...>

Subject: [] Re: answer-Urine Mycotoxin Testing

Date: Monday, December 6, 2010, 11:26 AM

Respectfully to All: this is the type of dissemination of misinformation

that will cause confusion.

Please make corrections when you discuss reports and results from things like

lab results.

ppb is parts per billion, (ppm is parts per million)

ppb is NOT size.

PPB is a unit of Concentration. It can be low (very little coffee in the water)

or it can be high (lots of coffee in the water).

We use concentration because we can report the amount of the substance

regardless of the initial volume collected, or in the case of physiology and

health, we can discuss relative concentrations regardless of the size of the

individual, or in case of environment, the amount of contamination regardless of

the size of the space.

This allows us to discuss exposures and risk, etc.

The analogy of salt divided into 1000 parts is not correct either (that would be

ppt-parts per thousand). To get ppb, you must divide a single grain into one

billion (with a parts; a single part would then be considered a billionth of

the grain, i.e., 1 ppb.

With regard to lab detection " limits " , this is the smallest concentration they

can detect using a particular analysis method.

ppb have nothing to do with size or weight. Although, concentration can be

expressed as weight/weight (e.g., grams/kg). It is rarely if ever expressed as

size (e.g., mm/meter)

[Guest guest]

No. I only listed a few things. You can go to my web site and get more

information on the bacteria. For example, Streptomyces species that are found

in indoor environments are the organisms from which chemotherapeutic agents are

obtained. No one is looking at this issue.

Also, the particulates shed by mold and bacterial colonies are in three general

size categories: <1 micron; 1.05-2.5 microns and >2.5 microns. the <1 micron

fraction is up to 500 times more concentrated than spore counts. Again, the

only people to look at this fraction has been Dr. Straus' laboratory. The found

macrocyclic trichothecenes in this fraction. Also, look at the summation

research by Polizzi at the below url

http://www.rsc.org/delivery/_ArticleLinking/DisplayArticleForFree.cfm?doi=b91756\

2h & JournalCode=EM

[] Re: answer-Urine Mycotoxin Testing

Dr Thrasher, including mycotoxins is this a pretty exhaustive list of causes

of sick building (water damaged or not)? " Mycobacterium and MAC, Gram negative

bacteria and endotoxins leading to respiratory symptoms and aggravation of

existing asthma, MVOCs and VOCs " ?

formaldehyde would be a VOC? chinese drywall perhaps endotoxins? Do you know a

good review article on the main contributors to sick buildings?

>

> Good points Carl. As both you and I have said there is too much talk on

> molds and mycotoxins. Many other conditions in WDB can lead to illness,

> e.g. Mycobacterium and MAC, Gram negative bacteria and endotoxins leading to

> respiratory symptoms and aggravation of existing asthma, MVOCs and VOCs. I

> recommend mycotoxin testing only after the specific fungi are identified

> that produce trichothecenes, aflatoxins and ochratoxin. These tests do not

> detect anything else. Also, endotoxins can cause a fever by stimulating the

> up regulation of IL1. Finally, there are two strains of Stachybotrys, one

> that produces trichothecenes and other spirocyclic drimanes.

>

>much

> beyond " presence " above the minimal level of detection for that specific

> test.

>

>