New Realizations/Re: Relocation Accomplished

[Guest guest]

God, thank you.

Everybody is different. Telling somebody whose anxiety is already ratcheted up

that they have to RUN OR DIE doesn't help that person and I'm tired of seeing

such responses. In my case, I really do have to leave because I don't have

control over some aspects of the space and it's clear that I'm not going to get

better--and indeed I'm getting worse--after months of being in my condo. But

when I first posted here, the first response I received was RUN OR DIE, and as

someone who has suffered a trauma pertaining to my father's early, sudden death,

I really didn't need to hear that. It just threw me into a place of total fear

and anxiety.

I'm sure the intention is good, but I can't go around reading people's

intentions.

From: Carl Grimes <grimes@...>

Subject: Re: [] New Realizations/Re: Relocation Accomplished

Date: Friday, October 1, 2010, 12:20 AM

Joe,

We've all been through this with you before so I don't understand why you keep

scaring people.

If the " mold facts of life " were as you say then you and all the rest if us

would have died long ago. Most people are not as impacted as the long term

members of this group. Why? Because their individual situation is just that,

individual, and they recover. No reason to stick around the pain and (often)

unnecessary negativity so they leave.

My case took 10 Years. With informed management and diligent discipline I

function at a very high rate. But not all the time.

A hugh mistake is to always KEEP moving without knowing if the new place (or

car) will be better or worse than where you are now.

The act of fleeing is not the " cure. " Fleeing at the right time to a better

place is what helps.

And that is a key value with this group.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[Guest guest]

Advocate, I'm so sorry.  Grieving from a loosing someone so dear as a father is

hard enough w/o causing more worry about the right decision.

 Thank you Carl, Moving or staying depends if your place can be remediated so

you can heal.  I have said run before we here more of the story.

 If it's a rental you'd be better off leaving, unless you have a landlord who

cares enough to work w you.  If they'd fix things before or just after  they

happen, water damage wouldn't grow into to a  big mold problem.   We had no

choice but leaving b/c a rental w a landlord who had no intentions of making

proper repairs.

A condo can cause problems, b/c you have no control over your neighbor's

choices.

My prayers.

Kathy

 <advocate_now@...> wrote:

Re: [] New Realizations/Re: Relocation Accomplished

Everybody is different. Telling somebody whose anxiety is already ratcheted

up that they have to RUN OR DIE doesn't help that person and I'm tired of seeing

such responses.

In my case, I really do have to leave because I don't have control over some

aspects of the space and it's clear that I'm not going to get better--and indeed

I'm getting worse--after months of being in my condo. But when I first posted

here, the first response I received was RUN OR DIE, and as someone who has

suffered a trauma pertaining to my father's early, sudden death, I really didn't

need to hear that. It just threw me into a place of total fear and anxiety.

I'm sure the intention is good, but I can't go around reading people's

intentions.

[Guest guest]

Dave,

It may help your depression to clarify some of the more confusing details. If

the mold is gone why move? Because you continue to feel worse then something

else, other than mold, is impacting you.

My first thought is the oil coating on the new A/C coils. Despite your

instructions the oil was not removed before installation. If I remember

correctly it still hasn't.

We know you also have some chemical intolerance because of the dramatic

improvement when your g/f switched to a non-fragranced laundry detergent, for

example.

Also I don't remember you reporting depression as the dominant reaction to mold.

It was usually the painfully tight neck. (plus some others).

Whatever the cause it will help to continue actively experimenting and

challenging assumptions. Whether you stay or whether you move. Especially if you

move so you can have increased confidence that the new place won't be worse than

staying.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] New Realizations/Re: Relocation Accomplished

I have to admit its scared me as well but without Joe's advice I more than

likely never would have considered moving especially now that the mold has been

removed. Since my re-exposure I can see that my health is slowly deteriorating

but it's so slow that I cant really see the difference on a daily basis but when

I think of how much better I felt 2 months ago as opposed to how I feel now I

can clearly see that whatever is in the air is slowly affecting me in terms of

brain fog and severe depression. Its that very depression that's stopping me

from moving, the longer I stay here the more depressed I become, the more

depressed I become the longer I'll stay here... sooner or later Im going to have

to bite the bullet and move.

>

> God, thank you.

>

> Everybody is different. Telling somebody whose anxiety is already ratcheted up

that they have to RUN OR DIE doesn't help that person and I'm tired of seeing

such responses. In my case, I really do have to leave because I don't have

control over some aspects of the space and it's clear that I'm not going to get

better--and indeed I'm getting worse--after months of being in my condo. But

when I first posted here, the first response I received was RUN OR DIE, and as

someone who has suffered a trauma pertaining to my father's early, sudden death,

I really didn't need to hear that. It just threw me into a place of total fear

and anxiety.

>

> I'm sure the intention is good, but I can't go around reading people's

intentions

[Guest guest]

Carl,

Can you what kind oil coating is used on  A/C coils & why?

Dave, I'm sorry to ask, but  How do you know you still have mold? There are

many chemicals that can effect us. 

Kathy

From: Carl Grimes <grimes@...>

Subject: Re: [] New Realizations/Re: Relocation Accomplished

Date: Thursday, September 30, 2010, 11:24 PM

Dave,

It may help your depression to clarify some of the more confusing details. If

the mold is gone why move? Because you continue to feel worse then something

else, other than mold, is impacting you.

My first thought is the oil coating on the new A/C coils. Despite your

instructions the oil was not removed before installation. If I remember

correctly it still hasn't.

We know you also have some chemical intolerance because of the dramatic

improvement when your g/f switched to a non-fragranced laundry detergent, for

example.

Also I don't remember you reporting depression as the dominant reaction to mold.

It was usually the painfully tight neck. (plus some others).

Whatever the cause it will help to continue actively experimenting and

challenging assumptions. Whether you stay or whether you move. Especially if you

move so you can have increased confidence that the new place won't be worse than

staying.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] New Realizations/Re: Relocation Accomplished

I have to admit its scared me as well but without Joe's advice I more than

likely never would have considered moving especially now that the mold has been

removed.

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Kathy. It happened years ago, when I was twelve, but I have PTSD from

it. One can never tell what another person is going through or have been

through; many of us have already been through so much that I think it wise to

not trigger one another with dire predictions and hystericism. Thanks again. AN

On Sep 30, 2010, at 9:47 PM, KathyB <calicocat477@...> wrote:

Advocate, I'm so sorry. Grieving from a loosing someone so dear as a father is

hard enough w/o causing more worry about the right decision.

[Guest guest]

Dave,

When analyzing the chronology of exposures and reactions it's

important to realize that something specific can " cause " a

problem initially (your previous condo) and then a variety of other

exposures keep it going. It doesn't have to be the same thing or

even very similar and typically not in a clear-cut sequence.

Once vulnerable to one thing some of us become vulnerable to

many others with a mish-mash of changing symptoms. Dr

's web site at www.drclaudiamiller.com has her

paper on Toxicant Induced Loss of Tolerance (TILT). Great

graphic also. There is also the medical issue of how your body is

functioning internally.

Any spores released from the coils during cleaning would be long

gone by now, or intermingled with all the others from the outside

air from ventilation. They would not be a continuing source of

exposure like the persistent oil on the A/C coils.

Your daily, intense workouts followed by a sauna is a very likely

possibility to consider. That activity will mobilize toxins and other

substances stored in your body. What that means is you are

being exposed from inside your body, not just from outside it. The

more you work out and the more heat from the sauna the more

you are exposed to what may be stored inside your body. Yes,

you feel better immediately after but the releases often occur

minutes to hours later. This is another possibility to consider for

your increase in symptoms.

This doesn't mean you shouldn't work out or use the sauna. It

means you have to account for that activity causing your

symptoms until your body burden is eventually reduced. Which

could be several months. If this is part of what's happening then

moving won't help. Either stopping the intense workouts for

awhile or diligently continuing them until your body becomes

" cleaner " is what will help. Medical monitoring is absolutely

essential - not just a suggestion - if this is intense and protracted.

You've suffered enough already and I'd hate to see you move to

an unknown place and end your relationship if it isn't necessary.

This is why sorting out what you are experiencing is so important.

It requires experimenting and challanging beliefs and

assumptions because most of what we have been " taught " or

what we intuitively " know " about this is often wrong and

misleading.

So we each, in our own way, have to figure out through trial and

error what to do and what not to do. And how to evaluate the

results. Constantly evaluating results, despite our initial beliefs is

absolutely essential. Otherwise we keep doing what we've been

doing and that hasn't worked so far.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Kathy I dont believe theres mold in the house anymore, I think theres mold

spores that were released into the air after the a/c coils were cleaned. I know

how my body reacts to mold spores as opposed to chemicals. We have removed all

chemicals from the kitchen and the basement has never had chemicals stored

there. While the oil from the new a/c coils could be a possibility in my opinion

it's highly unlikely beings I was getting sick before we had the new coils

installed. Regardless of whats causing me to feel sick we've done everything

humanly possible to correct the problem and cant afford to spend more money on

something that more than likely wont work. The best thing for me to do is move

and hopefully in 6 months to a year whatever is in the house that's affecting me

wont be an issue and I'll be able to move back. It may be a pipe dream but I

have to have something positive to look forward to, for the past 9 months my

life has been one set back after another and I simply cant

take it anymore

Believe me moving is the last thing I want to do, it means spending time away

from someone I love very much but it also means having to spend more money on

things like clothes and furniture. On top of that I'll be moving into an

apartment that I have no idea what it's history is and it could very well be

worst than the place Im moving from.

I do know that both my brain fog and depression is getting worst and as time

goes on it's highly unlikely it'll improve if I stay here.

Im sorry Carl but I just dont buy into the oil in the a/c coils creating the

problem. I realize that you have forgotten more about mold than I'll ever know

but I do know how I felt before, during and after the a/c coils were cleaned

than later replaced.

>

> Carl,

>

> Can you what kind oil coating is used on A/C coils & why?

>

> Dave, I'm sorry to ask, but How do you know you still have mold? There are

many chemicals that can effect us.Â

>

> Kathy

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[Guest guest]

Dave, chronic fatigue syndrome has symtoms of lightheadedness and brain fog,

directly correlated with higher levels of CO2 in the blood (studies have shown

that CFS populations have higher levels of CO2--and that DOES cause

lightheadedness and brain fog). It doesn't sound like you have fatigue,

especially if you go to the gun and don't suffer exercise intolerance, but there

are variants.

Also, people with anxiety disorders tend to hyperventilate without knowing it

and hyperventilation can cause your symptoms.

Really, if I knew those your were only symtoms, I'd have said that I absolutely

don't think you should move, let alone throw away your belongings. You have very

little evidence that your problems are caused by anything in your home, right?

Or am I still missing something? I asked about what else you might be allergic

to but you don't seem to have allergy symtoms per se.

I don't know, but I think Occam's Razor is a good guide here: the simplest

explanation is likely to be correct.

I wonder, too, if your supplements couldn't be causing your symtoms. I do think

that hanging your explanatory hat on mold is getting in your way (I know you ate

questioning it now, but up until recently you've been very convinced).

And finally, I wonder how much your brain lacks stimulation. Aside from going to

the gym, aren't you fairly isolated? The brain adjusts to low stimulation by

becoming slower, going into a kind of stupor.

On Oct 2, 2010, at 12:02 AM, " Tug " <tug_slug@...> wrote:

Thank you Carl, Im always open for suggestions.

Right now Im just tired of dealing with all of this. Theres a few people that

tell me that moving is my only option to regain my health while others say that

it may not be necessary to move and that I could be moving into a place that's

worst than the place I just left. Please dont get me wrong I appreciate

everyones input its just that Im confused and dont know who to turn to, to help

me make what I would consider life altering decisions.

Im not like allot of the other members here who know without a doubt that their

house is making them sick and getting out is their only option. I function

fairly well and am fortunate that my two worst symptoms are being light headed

and brain fog. Carl you've seen what I look like I dont have the physique of

your average 51 year old male, I have kids half my age at they gym asking what I

do to like the way I do. Im not trying to pat myself on the back but most who

see me would never guess I've been exposed to mold or that Im even sick. if

anything most would say Im the picture of health but thats on the outside, if

they could see whats going on in the inside their opinion would change

drastically.

Thats one of the reasons why my mind is always changing concerning moving.

Theres days when I feel almost normal in terms of my symptoms but than theres

other days that I cant sit in the kitchen for no more

[Guest guest]

And most don't have too! But some do.

Instead of the impossibly perfect extreme avoidance and then getting dejected at

our lack of perfection what you are describing is informed management. Very

sensible.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] New Realizations/Re: Relocation Accomplished

Hi Robin-I just wanted to agree with your post-it's hard to live in a bubble

indeed! My three kids are out of the house but one works in a moldy office and

has to always change her clothes before she comes over (and she's not sick). One

lives in a moldy basement with his wife and baby! And they are not sick but I

really keep their visits short and sweet. It's hard for me not to see my

granddaughter all the time but what can I do? They are not sick either, by the

way. My other daughter is moving into what she calls " a house with a little

mildew in the basement. " Great. I'll never be able to visit long but I will

visit and will take precautions, stand outside or something, I don't know, and

hope for the best. I wear a mask and keep my nose and mouth and eyes covered-I

look like a freak but they are my kids!

I am going to get some negative answers on this and I know, everyone is

right-stay away. But life is not like that so I hear you, Robin! You can't live

in a bubble.

>

> Joe,

>

> My husband is not remediating. He is cleaning the house out and is not

effected despite the fact he also has one of the HLA types. I dont know how this

happens esp since I know darn well he has been exposed to alot of mold and other

biotoxins including lyme and he handled that treatment like a breeze.. this

should not have happned with his " Dreaded gene " . There has to be another factor.

>

> My daughter has one of the HLA types as well and her markers are all ok so

far. I know what to look for and I have to balance fear, concern with LIFE!

>

> There is a diff living in the stuff and being exposed.

>

> We had the house remediated 6 months ago by someone who used proper protocol.

I am seeing that my labwork improved at that 6 month mark or before.

>

> We moved out and I have children. I cannot keep them in a bubble. I talked

with them about this and they understand my situation. I am *happy* we found

good *nice* neighbors and friends for my kids. I will not let mold get in the

way of that. I am looking for ways to handle the situation without making

neurotic hermits out of my kids.

>

> We live in a moldy world. I cannot go off and live in a desert in a tent and

drag my children there. I also cannot deny them friends because of mold unless I

see it effect them and then we need to come up with a solution. Honestly, if I

cant run a marathon and have functioning at about 75% I will be happy if I can

give my kids and myself a better life at 75% avoiding best I can over 100% and

being refined to a life bascially not worth living. If I didnt have kids, hey..

I could control alot more, but i do and thats part of my reality.

>

> I am not planning to be at neighbors house everyday. I also will try to see

how I can and if I can manage my symptoms before I give up on the friendship.

>

> Shoe found markers go up with reexposure and used csm to control. I am not

planning to vacation or live in my neighbors house. If a problem again, I will

tell her (already told her about the mold and since she knows someone who got

very ill from mold, she understands) and since they are outdoor people anyway, I

bet she wont mind chatting outside.

>

> I have to experience and experiment for myself and for my kids sake. We are

fortunate that if we need to move again, we can. But if we do, whose to say the

next new neighbors will not have an issue?

>

> Robin

>

[Guest guest]

Dave, that's great!!! I love that you're not looking at this as one thing or the

other and that you and your girlfriend have come up with a great compromise. As

for me, I move at the beginning of November--though it's not really moving stuff

so much as moving us and then buying a few replacement items to limp along with

until we can afford more. In my case, I know that contamination of my unit has

occurred from common areas, I know that there is a definite moldiness that is

causing health issues, and I can even point to the types of molds that are here

and the types I an allergic to, to day nothing of general toxicity these molds

can have--aspergillus--shiiivvverrr. But I have to keep telling myself all that

because foreclosure totally freaks me out and this new place isn't ideal. I have

the best lease I could hope for and almost a guarantee that the building has

not had water damage, at least since it has been converted to lofts (it's an old

industrial

building with thick concrete floors), BUT it is in one of the hip industrial

areas of my city, so I worry, fir good reason about environmental pollutants.

Nothing perfect, but I know I must get away from this mold. Thanks for asking!

AN

On Oct 2, 2010, at 8:48 PM, " Tug " <tug_slug@...> wrote:

AN one thing Im not is fatigued, I usually have energy to burn thank God. If I

couldnt get out and go to the gym due to CFS I dont know what I'd do.

If I knew what was making me sick and knew it wasn't going to morph into

something like CFS there's no doubt in my mind that I'd stay here but that's the

problem I don't know and wont know if Im going to get any worst until its to

late. Im not sure if thats a chance Im willing to take.

[Guest guest]

I live in a bubble I dont leave my house with its aircleaners I got sick

at work and a rexposure would kill me

In a message dated 10/2/2010 10:55:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

barb1283@... writes:

I agree Robin and Surella, There is a huge difference betw living or

working in a moldy environment and visiting one. If the one you visit is *very

moldy and you feel sick afterwards, of course don't go back

>

> Hi Robin-I just wanted to agree with your post-it's hard to live in a

bubble indeed!

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for your experience. Did you get sick after your neighbor

visited? Otherwise, why did you test after but not before their

visit? (maybe you have prior sample data?).

I'd be interested in knowing how it was determined that there

were " still " spores in your travel trailer after 5 cleanings during 8

weeks with daily ventilation. And that they then cross-

contaminated the metal building.

My guess is you continued to find spores in samples, most likely

settling plates?

There were already spores in your travel trailor but you didn't

know it until you tested - after your neighbor visited. Also,

ventilation will bring in the spores that are in the outside air. No

matter when or where you test you will find spores, neighbors or

not. You will find spores on your clothes, body and hair. Spores

are everywhere.

My point is spores are everywhere all the time. If a mold test

doesn't find spores then something was wrong with the collection,

handling, or analysis of the sample.

I don't doubt your reaction after your neighbor's visit. But their

bringing in spores doesn't account for what happened.

As for whether or not I encounter people who are extreme

reactors, they are my specialty. I've been there myself and have

been working with them for 25 years. I know and work with

people who are extremely depressed and suicidal because of

these types of exposures.

Please don't think I'm minimizing your situation. I'm not. But I am

saying the cause of your continued reaction is probably not the

original spores from your neighbors. It is something else. It is real

and it is something else. If you try to solve the wrong problem you

will never find the solution to the right problem.

Contact me off-line to discuss details, if you choose.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Sorry Carl, but I know for a fact this i not true for the highly sensitive. My

neighbors visited and I showed them my travel trailer, she was only in it a few

moments, and after cleaning it 5 times over the last 8 weeks, it still has

spores in it. I exhaust it daily. Then the spores got into my metel building,

same thing . I cross contaminated it when I though it was not a big problem.

What you say is fine for the normal person, but not for the up-regulated. I have

seen people deal with this issue dozens of times, you , with all your

experience, still must not run across extreme reactors very often. I do. Why do

you think we are suicidal? life becomes untenable.

>

>

>

> Any spores released from the coils during cleaning would be long

> gone by now, or intermingled with all the others from the outside

> air from ventilation. They would not be a continuing source of

> exposure like the persistent oil on the A/C coils.

>

>

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[Guest guest]

PS Carl. I believe and could be wrong, that in any climate with significant

humidity even part of the year, you must have really excellent filters you

change monthly in your hvac. Mold spores will gather on the dust otherwise.

Eventually your hvac will have mold. I have only rarely encountered truly clean

hvac systems. Turn them on, they're moldy. True of window units, too.

Can't we just do it right the first time around? Save so many so much illness.

[Guest guest]

Diane,

I'm piggybacking off something you wrote. Its not a challenge to you.

You wrote, and I agree, " I dont need a test result to tell me I have been

exposed to something, my body knows very well. "

Compare this with, " I dont need a test result to tell me I have been exposed to

Stachybotrys, (or mold or mycotoxins) my body knows very well. "

Huge difference between the two. I have no quarrel with the first. But with the

second I'd want to know how it was determined that Stachy is the cause rather

than any or the 100,000+ other possibilities.

Personal belief is one thing and we most likely are right. But convincing

someone else takes more than an adamant assertion. They will want to know why

and how you know that.

At least I'd want to know before I spend my limited resources on something that

may harm rather than heal. Or I am chasing the wrong cause. Consider the wide

variety of experiences here and disagreements. How do each of us decide what to

risk and what to ignore? Especially since we are so different.

We all what simplicity and certainty. But it must be accurate and true.

Unfortunately little about our situation is.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] New Realizations/Re: Relocation Accomplished

I hear you . The reason it is not necessary to test is because our bodies

are the testers and nothing else is necessary. I dont need a test result to tell

me I have been exposed to something, my body knows very well. Take care D

>

> Sorry Carl, you are wrong. Why would I test? normal non toxic spores, or

ambient levels never bother me, but a few concentreted spores from a bad place

cause me instant systemic anaphalaxis. My neighbors house had had a bad leak for

2 months, something they told me after I complained that I was reacting to the

trailer. It was perfect one minute, then totally made me sick after they left..

I also get sick when the wind blows badly from their direction, and have to

move. I have been dealing with this for over 20 years, what makes you think know

better than me what is bothering me? How do I know there are still spores,?

because going into the trailer sends me into anaphalaxis, and clogs my sinusis.

What makes you think a little cleaning gets rid of everything???? IT DOES NOT

FOR THE HIGHLY SENSITIVE.

>

>