Re: Articles and info for insurance company

[Guest guest]

Betsy: May I suggest that you research the back ground of their expert. You

probably will find conflict of interest. Also, look into research support and

the individuals expertise. It is a ploy by the insurance company to deny your

claim. This is why I always recommend as much testing as is financially in your

budget. This means PCR DNA testing for mold species. Culturing for Gram

negative and positive bacteria, testing for endotoxins as well as mycotoxins to

mention a few. What you will probably find is a mixture of mold species and

bacteria along with other biological by-products, e.g. endotoxins and

mycotoxins. The bacteria that you will find are human pathogens. The most

serious will be the Actinomycetes, particularly Streptomyces, Mycobacterium,

Streptococcus, to mention a few. When one has such a mixture of contaminants,

there will never by any so called standards. I suggest that you get away from

molds and mycotoxins and demonstrate the to the insurance company that you are

dealing with more than just molds and their by-products.

I further suggest that dust samples from various areas of the home (not just

carpet) and bulk samples of visible growth be tested for all of the above.

[] Articles and info for insurance company

Our house had toxic mold under the floorboards and in the walls. The owner's

handyman lifted the floorboards and installed a dehumidifier with a huge fan

which blew the spores everywhere and contaminated everything we own. We live in

England where there is a surprising level of ignorance about mold.

We are now fighting with our insurance company about the house contents. Their

expert says the whole mycotoxin issue should be disregarded because there are no

standards or proof for it, and that everything should just be HEPA vacuumed

twice and sprayed and returned to us.

We need to give them evidence that this is wrong. To show the science about

the dangers of mycotoxins. And to support our argument that their methods will

not work, and would make us ill and cross-contaminate a new home.

Can anyone point us to scientific articles, publications, etc that would find

credibility with our insurers?

Betsy

[Guest guest]

You will need to show that " contamination " actually happened, and that it is

indeed a " problem " , i.e., a hazard to you.

since there are no standards to meet for cleanliness, you will probably need to

argue your health is/has been actually compromised by this alleged contamination

(which you will need to prove).

I don't know the rules in England, but that is pretty basic here.

The 'expert' might be correct about cleaning, you may find that it gets clean

enough for you.

HEPA/WASH/HEPA usually does the trick for more than 99percent of the people. Do

not wash with a simple disinfectant, you need to wash with a product that has a

good surfactant first, then worry about disinfecting, since the components are

dry and clean, disinfection rarely helps. However, as recent discussion has

indicated, there may be a few active/viable bacteria and/or microbial spores

that need disinfection if left behind. (because you can't guarantee removal).

Good luck. contact me offgroup for a referal to a colleague in England, we cn

figure out if he's close to you.

>

> Our house had toxic mold under the floorboards and in the walls. The owner's

handyman lifted the floorboards and installed a dehumidifier with a huge fan

which blew the spores everywhere and contaminated everything we own. We live in

England where there is a surprising level of ignorance about mold.

>

> We are now fighting with our insurance company about the house contents.

Their expert says the whole mycotoxin issue should be disregarded because there

are no standards or proof for it, and that everything should just be HEPA

vacuumed twice and sprayed and returned to us.

>

> We need to give them evidence that this is wrong. To show the science about

the dangers of mycotoxins. And to support our argument that their methods will

not work, and would make us ill and cross-contaminate a new home.

>

> Can anyone point us to scientific articles, publications, etc that would find

credibility with our insurers?

>

> Betsy

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Betsy,

I am so sorry to hear you are going thru this. Unfortunately, there is no

One Size Fits All answer to your question. Every instance is different

and questions must be asked before answers are given.

For instance:

Was anyone made ill from the action of the landlord's handy man? If so,

they may be more sensitive now to any re-exposure and may require extra care

of what possession that were affected they can now be around.

If not, some deep cleaning like suggested may do the trick.

What type of possessions are of concern to you? Hard surfaces are easier to

clean. Curtains, couches, etc, may be a different matter.

What is the value of your possessions you feel are at risk? Are they worth

a huge fight that may take years to settle? Etc.

If it were me, I would go to a chat board called

_IEQuality (DOT) Com_ (mailto:IEQuality (DOT) Com) and ask my

question there. There are

many remediators and industrial hygienists that belong to that group.

Best of success,

Sharon Kramer

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the responses.

My whole family was made ill when the handyman lifted the floorboards -- my two

sons and I immediately, my daughter and husband after longer exposure. (Plus I

now understand that odd problems we'd had in the prior year were mold-related --

eye infections, vision problems, stiff joints, coughs, sore throats, " acne " in

my 9 year old.) The kids and I left the house within a week -- felt brain fog,

ill, lost my voice, coughing, red eyes, etc. The house has been tested, and had

aspergillis, penicillium and a small bit of stachybotrys. Evidently the

contamination is at very high levels; a lab commented it had been a very long

time since they had seen such contamination.

After leaving, we got worse. Hypersensitivity, in all five of us to varying

degrees. My oldest son still has " acne " that isn't acne, comes and goes within

10 minutes if he is around mold; but it's always there to a greater extent than

before. Difficulty breathing around mold. Reactive to other things now as

well. We definitely went through the experience of every exposure making us

more sensitive.

Our possessions have now been steeping in the very toxic environment --everyone

agrees nobody should enter without full protective gear, and the moldy smell is

very strong -- for four months. Since we react to pretty much everything, and

have found cross-contamination to be a problem (such as contaminating a hotel

room by using a hairdryer taken from the house) I have serious doubts that the

HEPA vac procedures would do the trick for us.

There is substantial value in the possessions, and of course sentimental value.

But I'd rather make sure that our health is safe, and get out of this nightmare

of hypersensitivity and cross-contamination.

Betsy

>

> Hi Betsy,

>

> I am so sorry to hear you are going thru this. Unfortunately, there is no

> One Size Fits All answer to your question. Every instance is different

> and questions must be asked before answers are given.

>

> For instance:

>

> Was anyone made ill from the action of the landlord's handy man? If so,

> they may be more sensitive now to any re-exposure and may require extra care

> of what possession that were affected they can now be around.

>

> If not, some deep cleaning like suggested may do the trick.

>

> What type of possessions are of concern to you? Hard surfaces are easier to

> clean. Curtains, couches, etc, may be a different matter.

>

> What is the value of your possessions you feel are at risk? Are they worth

> a huge fight that may take years to settle? Etc.

>

> If it were me, I would go to a chat board called

> _IEQuality@..._ (mailto:IEQuality@...) and ask my question there. There are

> many remediators and industrial hygienists that belong to that group.

>

> Best of success,

> Sharon Kramer

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Betsy,

I am not a professional in this issue, so take what I write with that

understanding.

Its sounds to me like you have experienced a chronic inflammatory response

caused by microbial contaminant becoming aerosolized during a botched

attempt to rescue a thing in peril (a water damaged house).

It sounds to me like it is not the contaminants themselves that have made

you ill and contaminated your property; rather the actions of an agent of

the landlord who made the contaminants airborne which caused your family to

inhale them.

If I were in England, I would probably contact Dr. Denning of the

University of Manchester. I am certain he would be aware of others who have

walked in your shoes. He may be able to refer you to a lawyer experienced

in these types of toxic torts/negotiations and a physician who can tie your

symptoms to the extreme airborne microbe exposure your family experienced

via the remediation in which no measures were taken to protect your family.

It is important that you inform the insurer IN WRITING of what you are

experiencing so they understand your immune system has been perturbed, making

your now contaminated possessions hazardous to your health.

Its not about proving what YOU know. Its about documenting what THEY know

and what they did once they knew.

I think you will find your family within this paper:

_http://www.policyholdersofamerica.org/doc/CIRS_PEER_REVIEWED_PAPER.pdf_

(http://www.policyholdersofamerica.org/doc/CIRS_PEER_REVIEWED_PAPER.pdf)

Again, I am not a professional and sharing info that is relevant here in

the US may not apply to England.

Find a professional fellow countryman to point you in the right direction

of encouraging the insurer to act responsibly.

Try this chat group out of the University of Manchester.

_AspergillusSupport@..._

(mailto:AspergillusSupport@...) for

those who have been made ill by fungi. Maybe some of them have had

experience dealing with UK insurers.

Sharon

In a message dated 12/30/2010 9:32:00 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

toxicologist1@... writes:

Betsy: It came to me what you should do. The first thing is ask the

defense expert to cite and give you a copy of the scientific literature that he

is using.to make his statement. Once you have this information, then I can

assist you in rebutting his claims. Usually they cite a paper published by

ACOEM. This organization used two defense experts to write the position

paper of this organization. The experts were Kelman and Hardin. They were

experts for the Tobacco industry when it is trying to defend its position that

cigarette smoking did not cause cancer. This position paper is very flawed

in its concepts. The other paper is by a group of Physicians (Bush et al)

published in the Journal of the AAAI physicians. This paper was rebutted by

11 different experts. It is also flawed. In addition in both papers, none of

the authors revealed their conflict of interest. All authors are defense

experts.

[] Re: Articles and info for insurance company

Thank you for the responses.

My whole family was made ill when the handyman lifted the floorboards --

my two sons and I immediately, my daughter and husband after longer

exposure. (Plus I now understand that odd problems we'd had in the prior year

were

-snip-

[Guest guest]

Betsy: It came to me what you should do. The first thing is ask the defense

expert to cite and give you a copy of the scientific literature that he is

using.to make his statement. Once you have this information, then I can assist

you in rebutting his claims. Usually they cite a paper published by ACOEM.

This organization used two defense experts to write the position paper of this

organization. The experts were Kelman and Hardin. They were experts for the

Tobacco industry when it is trying to defend its position that cigarette smoking

did not cause cancer. This position paper is very flawed in its concepts. The

other paper is by a group of Physicians (Bush et al) published in the Journal of

the AAAI physicians. This paper was rebutted by 11 different experts. It is

also flawed. In addition in both papers, none of the authors revealed their

conflict of interest. All authors are defense experts.

[] Re: Articles and info for insurance company

Thank you for the responses.

My whole family was made ill when the handyman lifted the floorboards -- my

two sons and I immediately, my daughter and husband after longer exposure. (Plus

I now understand that odd problems we'd had in the prior year were mold-related

-- eye infections, vision problems, stiff joints, coughs, sore throats, " acne "

in my 9 year old.) The kids and I left the house within a week -- felt brain

fog, ill, lost my voice, coughing, red eyes, etc. The house has been tested, and

had aspergillis, penicillium and a small bit of stachybotrys. Evidently the

contamination is at very high levels; a lab commented it had been a very long

time since they had seen such contamination.

After leaving, we got worse. Hypersensitivity, in all five of us to varying

degrees. My oldest son still has " acne " that isn't acne, comes and goes within

10 minutes if he is around mold; but it's always there to a greater extent than

before. Difficulty breathing around mold. Reactive to other things now as well.

We definitely went through the experience of every exposure making us more

sensitive.

Our possessions have now been steeping in the very toxic environment

--everyone agrees nobody should enter without full protective gear, and the

moldy smell is very strong -- for four months. Since we react to pretty much

everything, and have found cross-contamination to be a problem (such as

contaminating a hotel room by using a hairdryer taken from the house) I have

serious doubts that the HEPA vac procedures would do the trick for us.

There is substantial value in the possessions, and of course sentimental

value. But I'd rather make sure that our health is safe, and get out of this

nightmare of hypersensitivity and cross-contamination.

Betsy

>

> Hi Betsy,

>

> I am so sorry to hear you are going thru this. Unfortunately, there is no

> One Size Fits All answer to your question. Every instance is different

> and questions must be asked before answers are given.

>

/snip

[Guest guest]

sorry to hear this happened to you, I have a grandson who's face breaks out

everytime he gets around mold. not acne, but sores, kindof like cold sores.

>

> Thank you for the responses.

>

> My whole family was made ill when the handyman lifted the floorboards -- my

two sons and I immediately, my daughter and husband after longer exposure.

(Plus I now understand that odd problems we'd had in the prior year were

mold-related -- eye infections, vision problems, stiff joints, coughs, sore

throats, " acne " in my 9 year old.) The kids and I left the house within a week

-- felt brain fog, ill, lost my voice, coughing, red eyes, etc. The house has

been tested, and had aspergillis, penicillium and a small bit of stachybotrys.

Evidently the contamination is at very high levels; a lab commented it had been

a very long time since they had seen such contamination.

>

> After leaving, we got worse. Hypersensitivity, in all five of us to varying

degrees. My oldest son still has " acne " that isn't acne, comes and goes within

10 minutes if he is around mold; but it's always there to a greater extent than

before. Difficulty breathing around mold. Reactive to other things now as

well. We definitely went through the experience of every exposure making us

more sensitive.

>

> Our possessions have now been steeping in the very toxic environment

--everyone agrees nobody should enter without full protective gear, and the

moldy smell is very strong -- for four months. Since we react to pretty much

everything, and have found cross-contamination to be a problem (such as

contaminating a hotel room by using a hairdryer taken from the house) I have

serious doubts that the HEPA vac procedures would do the trick for us.

>

> There is substantial value in the possessions, and of course sentimental

value. But I'd rather make sure that our health is safe, and get out of this

nightmare of hypersensitivity and cross-contamination.

>

> Betsy

[Guest guest]

I also experience the skin sores and was diagnosed with " hypersensitivity

dermatitis. " Sounds right. D

> >

> > Thank you for the responses.

> >

> > My whole family was made ill when the handyman lifted the floorboards -- my

two sons and I immediately, my daughter and husband after longer exposure.

(Plus I now understand that odd problems we'd had in the prior year were

mold-related -- eye infections, vision problems, stiff joints, coughs, sore

throats, " acne " in my 9 year old.) The kids and I left the house within a week

-- felt brain fog, ill, lost my voice, coughing, red eyes, etc. The house has

been tested, and had aspergillis, penicillium and a small bit of stachybotrys.

Evidently the contamination is at very high levels; a lab commented it had been

a very long time since they had seen such contamination.

> >

> > After leaving, we got worse. Hypersensitivity, in all five of us to varying

degrees. My oldest son still has " acne " that isn't acne, comes and goes within

10 minutes if he is around mold; but it's always there to a greater extent than

before. Difficulty breathing around mold. Reactive to other things now as

well. We definitely went through the experience of every exposure making us

more sensitive.

> >

> > Our possessions have now been steeping in the very toxic environment

--everyone agrees nobody should enter without full protective gear, and the

moldy smell is very strong -- for four months. Since we react to pretty much

everything, and have found cross-contamination to be a problem (such as

contaminating a hotel room by using a hairdryer taken from the house) I have

serious doubts that the HEPA vac procedures would do the trick for us.

> >

> > There is substantial value in the possessions, and of course sentimental

value. But I'd rather make sure that our health is safe, and get out of this

nightmare of hypersensitivity and cross-contamination.

> >

> > Betsy

>