Re: Self-defeating actions [WAS: What can off gas and wh...

August 16, 2010

> That is veyr interesting. With amygdala retraining, gupta keeps repeating that

this is not in your head in teh sense that you are not making it up and you are

not creating it out of a vaccuum.

think about this a minute, consider brain washing, consider how for example a

woman may stay in a abusive relationship, why?

she has basicly been brain washed by her abuser, to believe that getting out may

attually be worse than staying.

she has fear.

on the other hand,woman that do get out ,on their own, may have done so by

reasoning with thierself, over and over again, " I can do this, anything is

better than this,it can not possabily be worse than this " ,ect.

by doing that she faces her fear and it gives her strenght.

you say with gupta, there is a repeating of this is not in your head,your not

makeing it up. what is that really doing?

thats what you need to really think about.

haveing extreme emotions that cause a bodily responce and haveing a bodily

responce from a chemical exposure is not the same thing.

different causes, so yes, it's important not to let fear get to you,

stress get to you,sadness get to you,ect. and yes, you can basicly talk to

yourself and calm yourself down.

however the effects of a chemical exposure is not something you can control. the

only thing you can do is try to avoid them.

August 16, 2010

I think you mean the things that are also called storage containers. I found a

company that could add windows, doors & bathroom. Of course you'd have to

request non-toxic stuff. If I remember correctly about $2200 for a plain

contaioner with a garage door. Delivery is about $800 of the price & about $800

for a man door & $800 a piece for windows. Construction sites get them & they

are also used for security guards. Someone suggested it would be better if you

just had them install windows, a door & elec & plumbing hook-ups & take it from

there yourself.

>

> I heard a blurb on TV the other night about some celebrities (forget who)

> traveling to some poorer country (forget where) to take shipping containers

> and turn them into homes for people. That seems like it could be a good

> solution for hypersensitivity, if there was somewhere people could go - with

> a clean environment and revamp these as habitats.

>

> _http://www.thedailygreen.com/green-homes/latest/shipping-container-homes-46

> 0309_

>

(http://www.thedailygreen.com/green-homes/latest/shipping-container-homes-460309\

)

>

> In a message dated 8/15/2010 6:48:02 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

> jeaninem660@... writes:

>

> Sharon, the cheapest thing I found which also happens to of been the least

> problematic was a one room attic apartment with a window unit that both

> heated and cooled, all utilities paid. but I also got rent assistance from

> HUD/section 8 program.

> everbody hated it because of all the stairs, it had it's own intrance, no

> nasty smelly hallway, and was tiny. thats one way to keep smelly family

> members from comeing over.

>

> another place I did fairly well in was a older model RV that had a really

> good AC unit in it. the highest the electric bill was, was 50 bucks a

> month. just couldn't stay in it in the winter and it wasn't road ready, just

> parked on my property. something else to consider.

>

> Sharon Noonan Kramer

>

August 16, 2010

Words of wise compassion, Jean.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] Re: Self-defeating actions [WAS: What can off gas and

wh...

Hi Carl,

I just want to add one more comment about this for everyone to think about.

Sometimes a person may just be too sick to hear what is being said. I

know from my experience that it took some time to accept that what I was seeing

was real......reactions to chemicals in the environment. Then it took

even more time to accept that so many things were causing the reactions. I

remember crying for weeks and asking why me....why my family?

We never used chemicals in the garden. We were organic before organic was

cool. We were probably one of the first to recycle.....nothing went to

the dump if it could be reused somehow. We composted. How could we get

chemical sensitivities? It seemed to be some kind of cruel joke. It was years

before we would find out that mold was the problem.

When you come to a board like this, you can't possibly know exactly where a

person is in their journey of acceptance. I can understand the

frustration of folks who have walked the walk and want to help others and

cannot

understand why they don't do what we suggest. Maybe they will in time. Maybe

they just need the time to accept where they are etc......and maybe it

won't be on our time table.

If we start judging them, they may turn away from one of the few places

they can go and know they are not going to be told they're crazy and that

it's all in their head.

We don't know where anyone is in their journey with this and we don't know

how fragile that person might be.

Maybe we can just be more encouraging and less judgmental.....sharing what

has worked for us without demanding from anyone that they do exactly the

same thing.

I don't know about everyone else here, but I've had enough judgment to last

me several lifetimes.

Jean

>Posted by: " Carl E. Grimes " _grimes@... _

(mailto:grimes@...?Subject=

Re:%20Self-defeating%20actions%20%20[WAS:%20What%20can%20off%20gas%20and%20wh...\

) _grimeshh _ (grimeshh)

Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:58 pm (PDT)

The context was people who are searching for cures while acting

as if they know what is best for us, while living in horrible

conditions. When others try to help by suggesting they need to

remove the exposure sources or remove themselves they give a

whole list of excuses as to why they cannot. The usual conclusion

is they deserve their fate. That is more what I was trying to

convey with my shorthand comment.

I will maintain this position when all help is refused, discounted,

or if self-sabotage is active. Nobody else is to blame because

they all tried to help but help was deflected and otherwise

rejected. <

August 16, 2010

Toyota 4Runner. Glad I bought it 2 years prior to MCS. The 4x4 allows you to get

farther into seclusion.

--- In , " cocopollyphenol " <cocopollyphenol@...>

wrote:

>

> --what kind of vehicle did you have?

>

August 16, 2010

Schizophrenia is not the same as Multiple Personality Disorder. People with MPD

do express diff physical conditions with each personality.

That doesnt mean I made myself sick and it certainly doesnt mean that physical

damage resulting in illness is not real.

There are crews of CFS-ME folks going to get stem cell therapy.. some are

getting better..

We all have stem cells in the body all the time. I think they are responsible

for when our body does heal minor or major.

I know very well that my sister healed and saw the proof of it after her NDE. Im

sure moving out of the damp basement apt helped but there was much more to it. I

saw this first hand with her.. after she recovered enough to be active again,

she falls backward iceskating with her girls and has a hemotoma.. she shocks the

docs because it heals in record time.

The change in her perception of herself as a victim was huge.. it was

magnificent. And I totally believe this helped her heal. And no way was it easy.

It was a hard recovery, but she stuck with it. She is not in perfect health. I

dont know anyone who is anymore.

There is way more ot her story that I wil not go into, but totally changed my

perception forever. I also know other people who have healed from dramatic

chronic conditions, so I will never say never to the power of the

body-mind-spirit.

We all have all kinds of blocks. Thats why we are human beings and we will

always have blocks.... to something.... Illness strips away fascades and has a

fine way of " unmasking " our humanness. And that also means we may or may not

recover, but if I dont, I hope to hell I can find a way to find some peace and

joy anyway.

Robin

> >

> > I do believe the mind & brain can fix a lot if you know how to set it in the

right direction & be honest about any blocks to healing you may have...i.e. one

block I had was that I was never any good at making money & if I heal I had

better get to work - even if it's Mc s. Why would I want to heal?

> > Food for thought. An MCS friend of mine did a lot of reading on brain

research. There was woman with schizophrenia (sp) studied. She had 7 different

personalities. Only one of them had MCS.

> >

>

August 16, 2010

Its more complicated than that. Its not choice. Its wiring. Thats why there are

some folks being helped by some programs like amygdala retraining and

neuroplasticity training. Not everyone, but some people. Its never all or

nothing.

This happens in lymeland. They have to prove chronic lyme is real and in the

process things get all black and white and if anyone recovers too soon then it

blows the chronic theory.

I am not trying to diminish. My daughter and I both have a level of MCS adn it

might get worse and might not get better, but I also beleive this is true about

MPDs having different physical experiences.. one having MCS and the rest not..

one blind adn the others not. and the one that is is really blind.

Robin

>

> I don't think I would hold someone out who has seven different

> personailities w/only one having MCS as relevant to anything one way or the

other

> regarding the science behind MCS. That sounds like one of those defense

urban

> legends to me, meant solely to cast doubt on the validity of MCS being

> caused by an overload of chemicals in our society.

>

> Sharon

>

August 16, 2010

Jeanine,

I really dont know what to say. I am searching and learning (over and over

again) and trying to keep my head above water trying to get out of this house

and do it " right. "

here is a link to plnet thrive's forum on brain retraining:

http://planetthrive.com/2009/10/rewiring-the-chemically-sensitive-brain/

Gupta is there as well. I think both have helped some people, possibly not

many.. I dont know. Its not about positive thinking or brainwashing in that

sense... ???

Im sure there are many reasons both would not be helpful as there are reasons

either might be for some people.

As for positive thinking.. you cant fool your body. Your body feels dissonance

and actually reacts negatively to it. So I dont think positive thinking is

helpful unless it helps a person shift from feeling helpless, hopeless and

defensiveless, powerless, etc. I do think when a person can " walk into a sense

of power " and sustain that on some level, it does help the body heal in whatever

way doing so can help.

Robin

> > That is veyr interesting. With amygdala retraining, gupta keeps repeating

that this is not in your head in teh sense that you are not making it up and you

are not creating it out of a vaccuum.

>

> think about this a minute, consider brain washing, consider how for example a

woman may stay in a abusive relationship, why?

> she has basicly been brain washed by her abuser, to believe that getting out

may attually be worse than staying.

> she has fear.

> on the other hand,woman that do get out ,on their own, may have done so by

reasoning with thierself, over and over again, " I can do this, anything is

better than this,it can not possabily be worse than this " ,ect.

> by doing that she faces her fear and it gives her strenght.

>

> you say with gupta, there is a repeating of this is not in your head,your not

makeing it up. what is that really doing?

> thats what you need to really think about.

>

> haveing extreme emotions that cause a bodily responce and haveing a bodily

responce from a chemical exposure is not the same thing.

> different causes, so yes, it's important not to let fear get to you,

> stress get to you,sadness get to you,ect. and yes, you can basicly talk to

yourself and calm yourself down.

> however the effects of a chemical exposure is not something you can control.

the only thing you can do is try to avoid them.

>

August 16, 2010

i think the doubt is propagated by MONEY, who stands to lose if the

masses start to believe chemicals make people sick? sue

>I've always wondered why there is any doubt about the validity of chemical

>sensitivities when medications can have any number of horrible side

>effects from a small amount of a chemical......even death.

>Jean

>

August 16, 2010

A friend of a friend got rid of MCS by going on anti-depressants. I have to

think her body is still breaking down from the chemicals but she's oblivious to

it. Hey, she has a life now so I'm not knocking her path.

>

> You could be right about this, Sharon. I guess I just took it as showing

> the complexity of the brain. Years ago on an ADHD board someone explained

> how when they took the meds for their ADHD, their chemical sensitivities

> went away. No one else had that same experience.

>

> I've always wondered why there is any doubt about the validity of chemical

> sensitivities when medications can have any number of horrible side

> effects from a small amount of a chemical......even death.

> Jean

>

August 16, 2010

I've heard people cured with NAET & monthly boosters they learned to do

themselves after that. It depends on the practitioner - some have disaster

stories. NAET works on the brain to coax it into making a new synapse about how

to react. It's based on the premise that the brain has the ability to send out

all the right signals to set things straight again.

>

> Jeanine,

>

> I really dont know what to say. I am searching and learning (over and over

again) and trying to keep my head above water trying to get out of this house

and do it " right. "

>

> here is a link to plnet thrive's forum on brain retraining:

>

> http://planetthrive.com/2009/10/rewiring-the-chemically-sensitive-brain/

>

> Gupta is there as well. I think both have helped some people, possibly not

many.. I dont know. Its not about positive thinking or brainwashing in that

sense... ???

>

> Im sure there are many reasons both would not be helpful as there are reasons

either might be for some people.

>

> As for positive thinking.. you cant fool your body. Your body feels dissonance

and actually reacts negatively to it. So I dont think positive thinking is

helpful unless it helps a person shift from feeling helpless, hopeless and

defensiveless, powerless, etc. I do think when a person can " walk into a sense

of power " and sustain that on some level, it does help the body heal in whatever

way doing so can help.

>

> Robin

>

August 16, 2010

I agree with some of this. Positive thinking can be a form of invalidation one

does to oneself. I prefer gentle cheerleading (I can do this; I can figure a way

out of this) and challenging (today, I am going to do this one thing to help

myself) balanced with healthy doses of self soothing (e.g., hot bath, good

music).

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 16, 2010, at 10:31 PM, " listspub " <listspub@...> wrote:

Jeanine,

I really dont know what to say. I am searching and learning (over and over

again) and trying to keep my head above water trying to get out of this house

and do it " right. "

here is a link to plnet thrive's forum on brain retraining:

http://planetthrive.com/2009/10/rewiring-the-chemically-sensitive-brain/

Gupta is there as well. I think both have helped some people, possibly not

many.. I dont know. Its not about positive thinking or brainwashing in that

sense... ???

Im sure there are many reasons both would not be helpful as there are reasons

either might be for some people.

As for positive thinking.. you cant fool your body. Your body feels dissonance

and actually reacts negatively to it. So I dont think positive thinking is

helpful unless it helps a person shift from feeling helpless, hopeless and

defensiveless, powerless, etc. I do think when a person can " walk into a sense

of power " and sustain that on some level, it does help the body heal in whatever

way doing so can help.

Robin

August 17, 2010

heres the thing, she does not mention the role that advoidance played in her

getting better, not really.

with advoidance my reactivity has changed in some ways but in other ways it

hasn't changed much, it's kindof hard to explain but I do know that the damage I

suffered to the olfactory and brain plays a hudge role.

as far as retaining the brain, yes, many people with TBI's can relearn,retrain

theirself, some to good degree, some not so good.

for some they just no longer have the ability to even try.

I can say with very strong belief because of my own experience that

in our case advoidance is a must before you can even start " working

your brain " I basicly forgot how to spell, now I can spell words that I use

alot but still have problems with words learned in grade school because I

haven't took the time to go back and relearn these.

I have spent no time in relearning puncuation, in case you haven't noticed,

and words that I dont use alot I still cant spell.

I have however spent alot of time learning anatomy,

how the brain functions and many things along this line in order to find

understanding of why and how this happens to us.

when I first started researching, I had to re-read sentences over and over again

to try to get them soaked into my head, I was doing good to grasp the basics and

that was about it.

I really couldn't add 2 and 2 without considerable thought, it was crazy, I was

a math wiz. advoidance helped me think clearer but it didn't make my prior brain

functions go back to what they were before.

not even close.

I have a niece and a ex-brother in law that both suffered TBI

involved with automobile accidents. I also know someone with schizophrenia.

I also lived with someone for 10 years that I felt had a split personality

coupled with a evil type nature.

so I have seen alot.

what bothers me is people that try to find ways to make money off of this, and

believe me, they are out there.

I remember during my first exposure when I would leave the home and I would

still go back to normal functioning.

thats the time to get out!!!

I had doctors telling me that all my problems were because of a work injury, I

regret giveing them the power over my instincts of knowing that something else

was going on here. what does haveing a stuffy nose and constantly brushing my

teeth because I had a bad taste in my mouth and a gritty felling have to do with

a back injury!

it wasn't until after my second exposure and than moveing back into my first

home that I made the connection and that was mainly because my old symptoms with

that house came right back, and now they were much more intence. plus now it was

effecting my sinuses,eyes and brain in a very obvious way.

I do know one thing, we dont all suffer the same damages with exposure and we

are all not going to heal by the same means.

I wouldn't want anyone to spend alot of money on something and lend credablity

to it as a cure if it was actual advoidance that played the bigger role in

regaining health than anything else.

there are levels of organ damage that can heal itself and levels where they wont

heal theirself or the healing is not a heal back to the prior state of normal.

claiming a cure for MCS, what does that mean? those are very strong words, a

cure, what is MCS? just exactly what is it? what level of damage does that

include, what is she claiming she can cure?

now I went pretty deep into the research of " wiring " in the brain,

and there is information out there on new growth, " rewiring " that happens and it

doesn't take gupta to do it. it does it all by itself.

>

> Jeanine,

>

> I really dont know what to say. I am searching and learning (over and over

again) and trying to keep my head above water trying to get out of this house

and do it " right. "

>

> here is a link to plnet thrive's forum on brain retraining:

>

> http://planetthrive.com/2009/10/rewiring-the-chemically-sensitive-brain/

>

> Gupta is there as well. I think both have helped some people, possibly not

many.. I dont know. Its not about positive thinking or brainwashing in that

sense... ???

>

> Im sure there are many reasons both would not be helpful as there are reasons

either might be for some people.

>

> As for positive thinking.. you cant fool your body. Your body feels dissonance

and actually reacts negatively to it. So I dont think positive thinking is

helpful unless it helps a person shift from feeling helpless, hopeless and

defensiveless, powerless, etc. I do think when a person can " walk into a sense

of power " and sustain that on some level, it does help the body heal in whatever

way doing so can help.

>

> Robin

>

August 17, 2010

Robin, to me the fight or flight responce is just one part of this illness, I

did a search on rewiring the brain and most of those only talked about emotions,

so in my other post when I mentioned about the rewireing I was refuring to new

axon tree,nerve regrowh, ect.

thats not what shes talking about, yes I read it twice.

she is basicly saying that fear, a condictioned thought of tagging a smell and a

fear of that smell is what keeps us reactive.

I just dont believe that. I can see where that could add to you symptoms. I cant

get around a stressful situation because now it can affect me in ways it never

did before, because of my illness.

but I dont fear re-exposures and truth is I have loss most if not all my

smelling ability in my left nostral,and alot of the time my smelling ability in

the right nostral seem to be somewhat distorted.

I've also not got much of a sence of taste. so alot of the time I know I'm being

re-exposed because of my symptoms starting in before I even get a sence of a

smell if at all. so with me I dont really have

that first sence of smell and my fight or flight is just way off.

now I well say that there is a possabily that this could work for some and maybe

it would be for those without much attual organ damage

and maybe not a inflammation problem,

but haveing been through this ordeal has actually put a fear to the smell or a

smell that might remind them of their WDB house,

which would actually be maybe along the lines of anixity attacks.

it all comes back to what is precieved as MCS and what may actually be TE, toxic

encephalopathy.

than now we have the CIRS-WDB which puts all of or most of our reactions to

re-exposures in a inflammatory context and re-exposures cause worse

inflammation,

and organs that have accured damage with prior WDB exposure would have a higher

amount of inflammation.

thus, chronic inflammatory responce syndrome.

now to my knowledge the fight or flight defences do not goveren the inflammatory

responce, so heres two different things going on right here.

I'm all for trying things that are not invasive or cant hurt you worse, so even

if something like this helped you fell better in any way ,it could help.

I'd love to be proven wrong too, but I'm afraid that I would only believe it if

I tried it myself and it worked.

> > > That is veyr interesting. With amygdala retra feels dissonance and

actually reacts negatively to it. So I dont think positive thinking is helpful

unless it helps a person shift from feeling helpless, hopeless and

defensiveless, powerless, etc. I do think when a person can " walk into a sense

of power " and sustain that on some level, it does help the body heal in whatever

way doing so can help.

>

> Robin

>

August 17, 2010

There was an article out recently about positive thinking and its effect on the

body if you do ont beleive the positive thought. Its a lie and your body

responds as it will to a lie (as per lie detector test). I've struggled with the

idea of positive thinking and particularly with the law of attraction.. at the

same time... I dont want to stay negative and I do see that vibration attracts

vibration.

I agree with you.. take care of yourself, be good to yourself, gentle

cheerleading sounds good.. allowing myself to not lock into one state of mind

when I can realize that I am thinking in circles or stuck on an absolute

negative.. when I am thinking something that is not helpful for me... and then

thought stopping.. this gets more into Gupta.

Robin

>

> I agree with some of this. Positive thinking can be a form of invalidation one

does to oneself. I prefer gentle cheerleading (I can do this; I can figure a way

out of this) and challenging (today, I am going to do this one thing to help

myself) balanced with healthy doses of self soothing (e.g., hot bath, good

music).

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

August 17, 2010

Jeanine,

I dont know!

I dont have the energy or time to prove you right or wrong as you said last

line, last post. I just need to find a plan, some peace with my plan and move.

ive been around the block enough to know all the bs that can come from people

who do not understand (and think they do have this cure or that etc)and I dont

want to be one of those people. I also have been working on this for myself for

some time and came near death at one point and at that point made certain

decisions about how thoughts can be as deadly as chemicals.. thoughts are

chemicals... even fluffy be happy ones. I also realize how brain inflammation

and damage can mess up the mind, though I am ont up ot date on how chemicals

directly effect the mind, body and create damage. I am thinking similar to lyme

toxins. they create an inflammation response and then damage..

And its all so personal and sacred really. And seemingly these therapies work

for some people in some way that they find helpful.

Robin

>

> heres the thing, she does not mention the role that advoidance played in her

getting better, not really.

> with advoidance my reactivity has changed in some ways but in other ways it

hasn't changed much, it's kindof hard to explain but I do know that the damage I

suffered to the olfactory and brain plays a hudge role.

> as far as retaining the brain, yes,

August 17, 2010

some drugs that effect brain chemistry can counteract some of the effects we

have going on. seratonin and dopamine ,both come to mind.

like a cup of coffee or a cigerette might. I can see where someone might get

some relief of certain problems there.

>

> A friend of a friend got rid of MCS by going on anti-depressants. I have to

think her body is still breaking down from the chemicals but she's oblivious to

it. Hey, she has a life now so I'm not knocking her path.

>

August 17, 2010

Robin, I understand where your coming from, I didn't mean for you to prove me

wrong, I meant that if at some time this thought of theropy proves itself as

working , I dont care what type of cure it is, as long as it works and works for

everyone or if it only works for some, that that is stated, I just dont like it

claims of cure might include us all as that basicly leaves some out and thats

not right.

good luck in your journey, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders and

that well help you, stick with your instincts.

>

> Jeanine,

>

> I dont know!

>

> I dont have the energy or time to prove you right or wrong as you said last

line, last post. I just need to find a plan, some peace with my plan and move.

>

> ive been around the block enough to know all the bs that can come from people