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" At least I'm not avoiding those bad thoughts anymore. "

Maybe it's because right now, after all this time of keeping them in,

it feels a good time to be dealing with them.

Personally, I don't see why people MUST deal with whatever they are

feeling instantaneously. Aren't people better able to deal with their

feelings when they are the most receptive to them?

That NOT dealing with our feelings can cause disruption in our lives

is important, yet the older I get, the more I am coming to believe

that if something weighs so heavily on my mind that I cannot

function, the best thing to do is to remove that thing from my

life...and I do that, but only when I am mentally prepared to focus

on it.

Most of the healing I have done in my life has been the result of

self-motivation. But it has taken a long time. I don't think it is

bad thing if the result is good.

Tom

Administrator

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> Personally, I don't see why people MUST deal with whatever they are

> feeling instantaneously. Aren't people better able to deal with their

> feelings when they are the most receptive to them?

I completely agree. I need a cool down period after an intense emotion

before I can see/think clearly through what's going on. Sometimes my

husband wants to deal with things right in the moment because he is so

completely unsettled leaving anything hanging. That's his personality

though... what he's learning is that it will turn into a bigger row if

he pushes me to talk it over too quickly rather than giving me space.

Sometimes the pressure of being forced to deal with it right away brings

so much extra stress and frustration that I get more angry than I

otherwise would.

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I think depression affects each person differently - there may be

similarities, however the person it affects the most is the person

with the depression. That is not to say that those around the

depressed person aren't affected sometimes.

I've come to recognise my own depression now and that awarness is

useful. A lot of people in this world expect one to just 'snap out of

it' or expect that one can jolly oneself out of it - neither work for

me. Sometimes up beat music is helpful/nice, but doesn't solve the

core problem of the depression, nor do many of the other ideas I've

heard and tried.

What I have found most helpful is the awarness - to take a possibly

more detached look at my depression. Ignoring it has always been

dangerous for me, but to accept it's there and be aware of how it is

affecting me is very helpful.

For example at the moment I am managing to function quite well

despite the depression, which is not easy as depression for me seems

energy zapping. Also the depression clouds my perceptions at times,

so the depression says that I am useless, not doing enough, not good

enough, etc etc, all the negatives. If I were to listen to these

perspectives I could push myself hard and hit burn out, or fall into

a heap unable to cope and then the depression would win. In the past

when I wasn't as aware of my depression I would have believed these

twisted perceptions.

So I find that denying the depression doesn't work for me, but

neither will I give into it. I will accept it and accept that for a

time my functioning may be less, that I may need more time out etc.

Conversely I have seen some in this world that will use depression as

a weapon - I guess it is just part of their personality, but I have

seen/observed one person control a whole family by their depression.

I guess they were rather a controlling person, the whole family

seemed scared of their moods - it was quite sad to see and not

something I could have personally put up with. Depression is awful

and can be extremely hard to live with, but I cannot excuse someone

using such as a weapon or a way to control others.

" I know what you mean. Lately I have been having my own

> trials and triubulations.

>

> If this was a competition, I would win the gold medal hands down.

I

> get sick of people who say they will do something only to find out

that

> it all falls back on my shoulders to complete because either it

wasn't

> done or a half-baked job was done or the other person decided to

skew

> my vision and do whatever they wanted to do instead.

>

> Raven

>

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I think depression affects each person differently - there may be

similarities, however the person it affects the most is the person

with the depression. That is not to say that those around the

depressed person aren't affected sometimes.

I've come to recognise my own depression now and that awarness is

useful. A lot of people in this world expect one to just 'snap out of

it' or expect that one can jolly oneself out of it - neither work for

me. Sometimes up beat music is helpful/nice, but doesn't solve the

core problem of the depression, nor do many of the other ideas I've

heard and tried.

What I have found most helpful is the awarness - to take a possibly

more detached look at my depression. Ignoring it has always been

dangerous for me, but to accept it's there and be aware of how it is

affecting me is very helpful.

For example at the moment I am managing to function quite well

despite the depression, which is not easy as depression for me seems

energy zapping. Also the depression clouds my perceptions at times,

so the depression says that I am useless, not doing enough, not good

enough, etc etc, all the negatives. If I were to listen to these

perspectives I could push myself hard and hit burn out, or fall into

a heap unable to cope and then the depression would win. In the past

when I wasn't as aware of my depression I would have believed these

twisted perceptions.

So I find that denying the depression doesn't work for me, but

neither will I give into it. I will accept it and accept that for a

time my functioning may be less, that I may need more time out etc.

Conversely I have seen some in this world that will use depression as

a weapon - I guess it is just part of their personality, but I have

seen/observed one person control a whole family by their depression.

I guess they were rather a controlling person, the whole family

seemed scared of their moods - it was quite sad to see and not

something I could have personally put up with. Depression is awful

and can be extremely hard to live with, but I cannot excuse someone

using such as a weapon or a way to control others.

" I know what you mean. Lately I have been having my own

> trials and triubulations.

>

> If this was a competition, I would win the gold medal hands down.

I

> get sick of people who say they will do something only to find out

that

> it all falls back on my shoulders to complete because either it

wasn't

> done or a half-baked job was done or the other person decided to

skew

> my vision and do whatever they wanted to do instead.

>

> Raven

>

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  • 3 years later...

It's not a stupid question and your concern that " I kinda feel like

im mixing two protocols, that of mild or moderate avoidance and

that of extreme (by buying new then ditching old clothing) " is a

problem only if we think we have to choose one " protocol " over

another, or that there is some kind of authority or requirement to

choose extreme avoidance over something else to avoid being a

bad person.

I've always advocated a " personalized avoidance. " Meaning,

avoid to an extreme what you react to in an extreme, alternate or

avoid " as best you can " the moderate to strong exposures, don't

sweat the nuiscance reactions, enjoy what you don't react to, and

treasure those which give you pleasure and well-being.

To do this means we have to become aware of what types of

exposures cause which type of reactions. As best we can. We

aren't perfect and there are no absolutes, so we do the best we

can. Especially if we are the only person in the world with that

particular set of needs.

Sharing gives us ideas we won't think of on our own and creates

a legitimate sense of belonging and of contributing. All of which

supports healing. IF we keep in mind that we are all different in

some way and honor those differences. And to respect what

others don't yet know, yet to tell the truth about what are facts

that are known and what aren't.

Take it easy on yourself, give yourself a break, and permission to

be wrong. There is value in a wrong decision. You then know not

to do that again. That should be the judgment, not what others

say you should be doing so you will be like them.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Another stupid question, forgive me. My question is,, is there really any

point buying all new clothes and ditching everything when lady im

moving in with is not going to be doing that herself... She will buy second

hand clothing books etc and will of course encounter mould on her trips

out, Surely its only worth chucking out things and starting from scratch

if u go in for extreme avoidance and every house member are going to

wash after a treip to town, and only buy new.. or is there value in

avoiding the crap that would have been in the last 2 wdb that im carring

on belonging and in clothes? I know its a weird question, but its a weird

illness. And nothing really makes sense to me.

I kinda feel like im mixing two protocols, that of mild or moderate

avoidance and that of extreme (by buying new then ditching old

clothing) AND by living with a moderate avoider. I just dont want to

waste time, energy, sanity and money if what im doing is pointless. But

perhaps its worth having my own clothes that are clean.. Then again i

will pick up stuff from where others sit, herself and visitors? None of this

really makes any sense to mw. And being poor its temping to take my old

gear or just organic clothing and bedding.. Obviously im a slow learner....

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Carl, i respectfully disagree with you advice. Being " wrong " when it comes mold

exposure isn't a luxury we can afford. If theres a certain protocol that's

proven to work than shouldnt we do everything possible to follow that protocol?

If your allergic to something your not going to keep exposing yourself to that

particular item your going to avoid whatever it is that's making you sick. If

your belongings are are contaminated with something that's making you sick your

going to either replace that item or try to decontaminate it since remediation

under these circumstances is nearly impossible it only makes sense to discard

the item and replace it. Being wrong in this situation could have life long

implications and could be the difference in living a long healthy productive

life or suffering miserably.

--- In , " Carl

> Take it easy on yourself, give yourself a break, and permission to

> be wrong. There is value in a wrong decision. You then know not

> to do that again. That should be the judgment, not what others

> say you should be doing so you will be like them.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

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The question is: Works for who?

There is no single protocol which works for everyone. The more

ill we are the more specific it must be for each of us.

There are general principles which do apply, such as avoid being

exposed as much as possible. But exposed to what? Everything?

What is okay? How to tell the difference so we can avoid the

correct substances?

My point wasn't that making mistakes is okay. Rather, too much

emphasis on not making a mistake leads to inaction until we get

even more ill. Then desparation kicks in which often leads to

extreme action based more on fear of making a mistake so we

sometimes blindly do what others tell us worked for them.

Without checking to see if it is helpful or harmful to us.

Sorry for the abrupt response. I can respond in more detail later if

needed.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Thats exactly It dave, on the one hand i dont have money to waste, on the other

the stakes are so high. I could care less about wanting to be like others i just

dont want to waste money needlessly if im going to be going into a risky

environment anyway. Perhaps discarding everything is something only worth doing

if you are going into an environment with very few existing things. I guess im

stuggling every single day to face my reality and this illness makes so little

sense to me.

>

>Carl, i respectfully disagree with your advice. Being " wrong " when it comes

mold exposure isn't a luxury we can afford. If theres a certain protocol that's

proven to work than shouldnt we do everything possible to follow that protocol?

>

> If your allergic to something your not going to keep exposing yourself to that

particular item your going to avoid whatever it is that's making you sick. If

your belongings are are contaminated with something that's making you sick your

going to either replace that item or try to decontaminate it since remediation

under these circumstances is nearly impossible it only makes sense to discard

the item and replace it. Being wrong in this situation could have life long

implications and could be the difference in living a long healthy productive

life or suffering miserably.

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prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.

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Thats exactly It dave, on the one hand i dont have money to waste, on the other

the stakes are so high. I could care less about wanting to be like others i

just dont want to waste money needlessly if im going to be going into a risky

environment anyway. Perhaps discarding everything is something only worth doing

if you are going into an environment with very few existing things. I guess im

stuggling every single day to face my reality and this illness makes so little

sense to me.

>

>Carl, i respectfully disagree with your advice. Being " wrong " when it comes

mold exposure isn't a luxury we can afford. If theres a certain protocol that's

proven to work than shouldnt we do everything possible to follow that protocol?

>

> If your allergic to something your not going to keep exposing yourself to that

particular item your going to avoid whatever it is that's making you sick. If

your belongings are are contaminated with something that's making you sick your

going to either replace that item or try to decontaminate it since remediation

under these circumstances is nearly impossible it only makes sense to discard

the item and replace it. Being wrong in this situation could have life long

implications and could be the difference in living a long healthy productive

life or suffering miserably.

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good post Carl. I had luck with washing my cloths, what few diddent get ruined

from rust spots from well water, but anyway, I had a hard time with new cloths

too, couldn't even stand them in the house until they were washed several times.

I finally just told my sister and mom to give me some of their cloths that they

no longer wore, but even that meant several washings to get their laundry soak

and dryer sheet smell out of them.

so it's probaly mostly up to you what you want to try.

>

> It's not a stupid question and your concern that " I kinda feel like

> im mixing two protocols, that of mild or moderate avoidance and

> that of extreme (by buying new then ditching old clothing) " is a

> problem only if we think we have to choose one " protocol " over

> another, or that there is some kind of authority or requirement to

> choose extreme avoidance over something else to avoid being a

> bad person.

>

> I've always advocated a " personalized avoidance. " Meaning,

> avoid to an extreme what you react to in an extreme, alternate or

> avoid " as best you can " the moderate to strong exposures, don't

> sweat the nuiscance reactions, enjoy what you don't react to, and

> treasure those which give you pleasure and well-being.

>

> To do this means we have to become aware of what types of

> exposures cause which type of reactions. As best we can. We

> aren't perfect and there are no absolutes, so we do the best we

> can. Especially if we are the only person in the world with that

> particular set of needs.

>

> Sharing gives us ideas we won't think of on our own and creates

> a legitimate sense of belonging and of contributing. All of which

> supports healing. IF we keep in mind that we are all different in

> some way and honor those differences. And to respect what

> others don't yet know, yet to tell the truth about what are facts

> that are known and what aren't.

>

> Take it easy on yourself, give yourself a break, and permission to

> be wrong. There is value in a wrong decision. You then know not

> to do that again. That should be the judgment, not what others

> say you should be doing so you will be like them.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

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Tug, I disagree, if you try something and it doesn't work for you, you'll know

pretty quick. say if you try washing your cloths, if they still bother you, you

wash them somemore. some people suffer through years of exposure before they

realize whats harming them, buy that time they could have lost their jobs, are

in alot of pain,ect.

they may not be able to afford to just leave everything behind.

getting out of the WDB is the first step, even if your not able to tolerate

your belongings , that still a much lesser exposure than when you were in the

WDB. your hyper-reactive now, many things well bother you, not just your

belongings, it's very hard to reconize the difference sometimes. many people

have left everything and they may not of had to. some of us have had sucess by

cleaning, putting things outside, storeing,ect.

seriously, you'd be supprized at things that or contaminated being sold at

garage sales and antique malls everyday.

you have to remember that you are hypersensitive now, what bothers you wont

bother most people to that extent.

if you can remediated a home or your belongings to a point that you can tolerate

them, why walk away?

>

>

> Carl, i respectfully disagree with you advice. Being " wrong " when it comes

mold exposure isn't a luxury we can afford. If theres a certain protocol that's

proven to work than shouldnt we do everything possible to follow that protocol?

>

> If your allergic to something your not going to keep exposing yourself to that

particular item your going to avoid whatever it is that's making you sick. If

your belongings are are contaminated with something that's making you sick your

going to either replace that item or try to decontaminate it since remediation

under these circumstances is nearly impossible it only makes sense to discard

the item and replace it. Being wrong in this situation could have life long

implications and could be the difference in living a long healthy productive

life or suffering miserably.

>

>

> --- In , " Carl

> > Take it easy on yourself, give yourself a break, and permission to

> > be wrong. There is value in a wrong decision. You then know not

> > to do that again. That should be the judgment, not what others

> > say you should be doing so you will be like them.

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

>

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Khandalah, maybe just wait and see how it goes, some have walked away from

everthing, right into another moldy situation, sometimes more than once, many

have probably mistaken a reaction to other chemicals, purfumes, scented candles,

someone's deoderant,ect, as thinking they brought some contaminated belonging

with them.

theres no right or wrongs here, it's just finding what works for you, trail and

error, theres no easy way alround it.

> >

> >Carl, i respectfully disagree with your advice. Being " wrong " when it comes

mold exposure isn't a luxury we can afford. If theres a certain protocol that's

proven to work than shouldnt we do everything possible to follow that protocol?

> >

> > If your allergic to something your not going to keep exposing yourself to

that particular item your going to avoid whatever it is that's making you sick.

If your belongings are are contaminated with something that's making you sick

your going to either replace that item or try to decontaminate it since

remediation under these circumstances is nearly impossible it only makes sense

to discard the item and replace it. Being wrong in this situation could have

life long implications and could be the difference in living a long healthy

productive life or suffering miserably.

>

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New clothing is treated with anti-wrinkle chemicals that are formaldehyde

releasing. If you are chemically sensitive, the formaldehyde will get to you.

[] Re: Avoidance

good post Carl. I had luck with washing my cloths, what few diddent get ruined

from rust spots from well water, but anyway, I had a hard time with new cloths

too, couldn't even stand them in the house until they were washed several times.

I finally just told my sister and mom to give me some of their cloths that they

no longer wore, but even that meant several washings to get their laundry soak

and dryer sheet smell out of them.

so it's probaly mostly up to you what you want to try.

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I lefy everything behind took me awhile but I found a condo that is ok

and all new stuff. I had friends to help me out. I was lucky but im still

sick six years later and I am very reactive now to foods and spices and I

cant stand smeells such as laundry dtergents, candles etc.

In a message dated 12/16/2010 10:19:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

tug_slug@... writes:

My point is we have no room for error. To create an error could mean the

difference between living or dying. When was last time anyone here has

suggested to another member to take all their belongings from their WDB to the

new residence? For anyone to give that kind of information is just wrong. Im

living in a hotel that is no more than 3 years old, and after a week of

living here I started to get sick again.

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My point is we have no room for error. To create an error could mean the

difference between living or dying. When was last time anyone here has suggested

to another member to take all their belongings from their WDB to the new

residence? For anyone to give that kind of information is just wrong. Im living

in a hotel that is no more than 3 years old, and after a week of living here I

started to get sick again. The shower has been painted in flat paint whenever

you take a shower you can actually see the drywall soaking up the water that's

above the shower stall. The rubber base bold molding around the shower and the

wall have no caulking whatsoever. There may not be mold growing there at the

current moment but I guarantee that bathroom is an accident waiting to happen. I

sleep with the window wide open every night but I still have the same symptoms

that I had when I was living in a moldy house but yet when I walk outside my

symptoms subside so I've decided to move. There's allot of people here that are

obviously much more knowldege a about mold but but knowing what I know and how

my body reacts to mold there is no way I'm going to take anything with me to my

next motel room. This is my life making an error because someone said it's ok to

take my belongings because I'm not sure what's bothering me isnt going to

happen. For the record I have yet to meet anyone who hasn't said the same thing

and that's get out of th WDB and leave everything behind. Correct me if I'm

wrong

>

> Tug, I disagree, if you try something and it doesn't work for you, you'll know

pretty quick. say if you try washing your cloths, if they still bother you, you

wash them somemore. some people suffer through years of exposure before they

realize whats harming them, buy that time they could have lost their jobs, are

in alot of pain,ect.

> they may not be able to afford to just leave everything behind.

> getting out of the WDB is the first step, even if your not able to tolerate

your belongings , that still a much lesser exposure than when you were in the

WDB. your hyper-reactive now, many things well bother you, not just your

belongings, it's very hard to reconize the difference sometimes. many people

have left everything and they may not of had to. some of us have had sucess by

cleaning, putting things outside, storeing,ect.

> seriously, you'd be supprized at things that or contaminated being sold at

garage sales and antique malls everyday.

> you have to remember that you are hypersensitive now, what bothers you wont

bother most people to that extent.

> if you can remediated a home or your belongings to a point that you can

tolerate them, why walk away?

>

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For the record I will n loger post in this thread I'm not going to allow myself

to sucked into the drama that occurs on this forum in an all too frequent basis.

Have a good day

>

> Tug, I disagree, if you try something and it doesn't work for you, you'll know

pretty quick. say if you try washing your cloths, if they still bother you, you

wash them somemore. some people suffer through years of exposure before they

realize whats harming them, buy that time they could have lost their jobs, are

in alot of pain,ect.

> they may not be able to afford to just leave everything behind.

> getting out of the WDB is the first step, even if your not able to tolerate

your belongings , that still a much lesser exposure than when you were in the

WDB. your hyper-reactive now, many things well bother you, not just your

belongings, it's very hard to reconize the difference sometimes. many people

have left everything and they may not of had to. some of us have had sucess by

cleaning, putting things outside, storeing,ect.

> seriously, you'd be supprized at things that or contaminated being sold at

garage sales and antique malls everyday.

> you have to remember that you are hypersensitive now, what bothers you wont

bother most people to that extent.

> if you can remediated a home or your belongings to a point that you can

tolerate them, why walk away?

>

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, I totally agree with you! We are all different and all exposed to

different molds and different amounts. I was so sickened from my school and

was scared to death when I started reading about throwing away clothes and

belongings. I had worked for years in the school and took things back and

forth to work and home. I didn't bring anything home from my classroom but I

didn't throw away clothes, shoes, or coats. I have them to this day and I

have been fine. I did wash many things and some wool coats I took to the

cleaners. But think about all the times I came home and sat on my sofa,

chairs, car, bed?! I hung all my things in the closets with my husbands clothes

and put others into drawers. Some are more sensitive and I guess I was

fortunate that it wasn't my home but I did bring lots of things to and from

school for 15 yrs. It all depends on the person I think and what triggers an

attack. If it's the clothing then I say get rid of it. For example I have to

be careful about getting books from the library. I usually preorder them

online so I can just run in and pick them up. But I actually smell them first

before checking them out. One smelled like smoke so I didn't take it. It's

a difficult way to live but I have learned where I can go locally and

avoid others like the plague!!!

Sue

We are all different even though there are many similarities. I had

several moldy places and I would not have been able to throw everything away 3

or

4 times. I did throw away a lot. So many couches,beds, washers, etc.

during these moves. But also I was able to wash some clothes and was okay with

them and didn't throw everything away. You have to be your own judge. Guess

since I had so many moves after a while you know.

I am not as weak as when I was in the moldy homes/apartments. My main

problem at this point I believe is candida and I avoid most chemicals as much

as possible. I am on my own --no medical treatment since 2002-- that is just

how it is especially since my husband's quadruple bypass surgery.

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Tug,

I hope you don't think my comments to your opinion is " drama "

rather than substantive. So I hope you will continue to participate

because you have much relevant and recent experience.

I agree that you and many others on Sickbuildings have " no room

for error, " as you put it. So in the spirit of support and sharing can

you or they tell us how you make correct decisions without error?

I don't mean this facetiously but rather we need to be clear on

what " no room for error " means especially in the context of " the

difference between living or dying. "

For example, and this is not meant as a criticism of you, but you

just gave a perfect example of how " errors " are made despite

your best efforts. Many of your posts recently have discussed

how you have evaluated new housing options with each move,

your choices, and what went wrong. You have learned from each

move but not all have been an improvement. So there are errors.

And there seems to be " room for error " because errors are

inevitable and not all mistakes kill us. In fact, few do,

That is what I mean by learning from mistakes. Not to

delibertately create them but because we all make " errors "

despite our best efforts. Instead of beating ourselves up or feeling

shame or not recognizing mistakes when they do occur, maybe

we should use that information to try to make better decisions

next time. Be compassionate with ourselves and others.

If we don't use what we learn about what works and what doesn't

then we keep repeating the same pattern over and over.

Repeating the same pattern could be an important clue that we

need to change our approach. That would be an example of

learning from our errors.

My final point is that we are all different. You can't live in some

places I can. But I can't live in some places you can. That is what

I mean when I say that there is no proven protocol for all. I'll even

add that there is no proven protocol for any one of us because life

and our body changes over time. What used to work may not

later, and conversely.

As for always leaving all possesions behind, I have a couple of

thousand clients over the past 25 years who did NOT have to

leave everything behind. On the other hand, I have about 50 who

did have to leave everything behind. 50 out of 2000 is a small

percentage but to that 50 the numbers were irrelevant.

The " trick " is figuring out what each of us must do, what we

cannot do, and what is marginal. If there is a proven protocol it

would be: What is the process by which each of us determines

what to do in what sequence, what to avoid, and how to interpret

the results?

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

My point is we have no room for error. To create an error could mean the

difference between living or dying. When was last time anyone here has suggested

to another member to take all their belongings from their WDB to the new

residence? For anyone to give that kind of information is just wrong. Im living

in a hotel that is no more than 3 years old, and after a week of living here I

started to get sick again. The shower has been painted in flat paint whenever

you take a shower you can actually see the drywall soaking up the water that's

above the shower stall. The rubber base bold molding around the shower and the

wall have no caulking whatsoever. There may not be mold growing there at the

current moment but I guarantee that bathroom is an accident waiting to happen. I

sleep with the window wide open every night but I still have the same symptoms

that I had when I was living in a moldy house but yet when I walk outside my

symptoms subside so I've decided to move. There's allot of

people here that are obvious

>

> Tug, I disagree, if you try something and it doesn't work for you, you'll know

pretty quick. say if you try washing your cloths, if they still bother you, you

wash them somemore. some people suffer through years of exposure before they

realize whats harming them, buy that time they could have lost their jobs, are

in alot of pain,ect.

> they may not be able to afford to just leave everything behind.

> getting out of the WDB is the first step, even if your not able to tolerate

your belongings , that still a much lesser exposure than when you were in the

WDB. your hyper-reactive now, many things well bother you, not just your

belongings, it's very hard to reconize the difference sometimes. many people

have left everything and they may not of had to. some of us have had sucess by

cleaning, putting things outside, storeing,ect.

> seriously, you'd be supprized at things that or contaminated being sold at

garage sales and antique malls everyday.

> you have to remember that you are hypersensitive now, what bothers you wont

bother most people to that extent.

> if you can remediated a home or your belongings to a point that you can

tolerate them, why walk away?

>

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We are all different even though there are many similarities. I had several

moldy places and I would not have been able to throw everything away 3 or 4

times. I did throw away a lot. So many couches,beds, washers, etc. during these

moves. But also I was able to wash some clothes and was okay with them and

didn't throw everything away. You have to be your own judge. Guess since I had

so many moves after a while you know.

I am not as weak as when I was in the moldy homes/apartments. My main problem at

this point I believe is candida and I avoid most chemicals as much as possible.

I am on my own --no medical treatment since 2002-- that is just how it is

especially since my husband's quadruple bypass surgery.

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> New clothing is treated with anti-wrinkle chemicals that are formaldehyde

releasing. If you are chemically sensitive, the

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Hi Carl, 

    I just wanted to know based on the numbers,  thoes who took their

belongings

with them did they have them professionally cleaned by a remediator or did they

take them as they were?

 

     I ask because I know someone who has been going threw this now 11

years. 

They are very very ill.  They left most all but took electronic and some other

things and were not profesionally cleaned and they semm to be getting worse not

better.  Is there a difference in having it professionally done or do it

yourself.  I know our own bodies too have to do with all of this. And other

items but as far as belongings go :  To remediate or not to remediate ??

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Sent: Thu, December 16, 2010 10:45:10 AM

Subject: Re: [] Re: Avoidance

 

Tug,

I hope you don't think my comments to your opinion is " drama "

rather than substantive. So I hope you will continue to participate

because you have much relevant and recent experience.

I agree that you and many others on Sickbuildings have " no room

for error, " as you put it. So in the spirit of support and sharing can

you or they tell us how you make correct decisions without error?

I don't mean this facetiously but rather we need to be clear on

what " no room for error " means especially in the context of " the

difference between living or dying. "

For example, and this is not meant as a criticism of you, but you

just gave a perfect example of how " errors " are made despite

your best efforts. Many of your posts recently have discussed

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Tug, I'm not trying to cause drama, infact, the opposite.

theres something called hindsite and sometimes it's way down the road for many

of us, sometimes years. it's not easy sorting out the fear and anixity from what

common sence tries to tell us, exspecially with the brain injury and the

hyper-sensitivities.

some of us oldies learned everything the hardway, that might just give us a

little more insight, have a little respect for your elders that they might just

have a little more knowledge than you do at this point, they are trying to help

you see.

I've never,ever tried to tell someone to just take their belongings without

cleaning them, and if actuall mold growth is seen and cant be washed off to

throw it away, clean them outside when possable, and if at all possable to store

them and worry about them later, much later.

this board was here for years before you came along, you understand that, theres

been a million discusions on this, over and over again.

I left alot of belongings behind, they had spots of mold growing on them by the

time I went back to try to salvage some more.

what I took the first time around, set outside for days, I was prepared to throw

away what I had to and most picture albums of my children when they were babies

had to go,negitives and pictures gone, that hurt.

truely, I didn't save alot.

the only thing I brought straight in were cloths that went straight in the

washer.

you see, I moved from one WDB to another that was much worse.

I hadn't even unpacked alot of things and those were mostly the things that were

savable, why?, because that WDB was different in that the belongings weren't

made damp to the touch because of high moisture problems,they didn't grow mold,

they were contaminated with toxic dust.

I dont know of to many people that had their belonging actually be wet to the

touch and start growing mold on them.

theres different kinds of contamination, this second house left a biofilm on

everything that wasn't in still boxed up.

big difference.

that tells me there are going to be differences in everyone belongings from WDB.

truely, walking away from everything doesn't automaticly give you your health

back unless you weren't that sick in the first place, and thats really the time

that we need the knowledge to know whats happening to us, or whats going to

happen.

for years in my first WDB exposure I repeatedly spent time away from my home and

repeatedly got better while doing so.

I didn't fair so well after the second WDB.

and the first one was a miserable hell none the less, but I was affected in

several different ways with both.

anyway, the point is, I'm still here, I didn't die.

I have been slowly getting better sence the day I vacated the WDB .

do you get that? yes, I moved in my many moves into a few moldy apartments that

bothered me because I was hypersensitive, yes, I lived with my daughter for a

short time and their purfumes and scented candles made me hide out in my room

because I couldn't tolerate them even though I was still in such a mess that the

only added symptom that caused me to reconize what it was that was causeing me

more discomfort was burning to my sinuses and severe irritablity. with the brain

injury and being in lala land and even though I had no clue what was going on

with me and had never heard of chemical sensitivity, when I was presured about

spending to much time alone in my room, it just came out of my mouth that I

couldn't be in the other rooms, the scented candles and perfumes were driveing

me nuts. I didn't even know, but I knew.

now I may have unmasked quicker than other might, maybe because I suffered

meningitis.

in my belief, even takeing to many or maybe even any prescribed med's may delay

unmasking, walking straight out of a WDB into someones home who has a barage of

scented candles, purfumes, plug ins, all these things can hinder unmasking to

some extent where I believe some, along with dealing with the " still " affect in

their body from WDB,

just spend alot of time being pretty miserable and not being able to

differentiate much of anything, so everything gets blamed on mold because thats

what they have been told made them sick.

it isn't just about mold anymore, it's lots of things.

it is the total load of any combination, the more you cut out, the better you

start felling, the more you start reconizeing your triggers.

it is the unmasking that starts the recovery process, if you dont get it, you

delay the recovery process.

and yes, for awhile with whats still going on in your body from the exposure in

a WDB it might not really matter what you do, your just going to be miserable.

I have never ,ever told anyone that it's ok to just take their belongings with

them without washing or trying to remediate . never.

quit putting words in my mouth.

quit being a big baby, just because someone dares to disagree with you.

> >

> > Tug, I disagree, if you try something and it doesn't work for you, you'll

know pretty quick. say if you try washing your cloths, if they still bother you,

you wash them somemore. some people suffer through years of exposure before they

realize whats harming them, buy that time they could have lost their jobs, are

in alot of pain,ect.

> > they may not be able to afford to just leave everything behind.

> > getting out of the WDB is the first step, even if your not able to tolerate

your belongings , that still a much lesser exposure than when you were in the

WDB. your hyper-reactive now, many things well bother you, not just your

belongings, it's very hard to reconize the difference sometimes. many people

have left everything and they may not of had to. some of us have had sucess by

cleaning, putting things outside, storeing,ect.

> > seriously, you'd be supprized at things that or contaminated being sold at

garage sales and antique malls everyday.

> > you have to remember that you are hypersensitive now, what bothers you wont

bother most people to that extent.

> > if you can remediated a home or your belongings to a point that you can

tolerate them, why walk away?

> >

>

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dragonfly, was wondering how old they are, our defence systems

decline with age from around I think I read 50 or 60, that could play a role in

the ability to recover.

lots of things out there to worry about that can keep us sick. I couldn't

believe the difference in how I felt day to day by just getting a brita pitcher

and filtering my water.

so much to think about.

>

> Hi Carl, 

>

>     I just wanted to know based on the numbers,  thoes who took their

belongings

> with them did they have them professionally cleaned by a remediator or did

they

> take them as they were?

>

>  

>      I ask because I know someone who has been going threw this now 11

years. 

> They are very very ill.  They left most all but took electronic and some

other

> things and were not profesionally cleaned and they semm to be getting worse

not

> better.  Is there a difference in having it professionally done or do it

> yourself.  I know our own bodies too have to do with all of this. And other

> items but as far as belongings go :  To remediate or not to remediate ??

>

> Mayleen

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oh, guess what I should of said is that the defence system might have a harder

time healing from WDB exposure damage, the older we get.

>

> dragonfly, was wondering how old they are, our defence systems

> decline with age from around I think I read 50 or 60, that could play a role

in the ability to recover.

> lots of things out there to worry about that can keep us sick. I couldn't

believe the difference in how I felt day to day by just getting a brita pitcher

and filtering my water.

> so much to think about.

>

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Their problems began in their 40's but they have children just as ill in their

20's. 

 

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: osisposis <jeaninem660@...>

Sent: Thu, December 16, 2010 3:50:02 PM

Subject: [] Re: Avoidance

 

dragonfly, was wondering how old they are, our defence systems

decline with age from around I think I read 50 or 60, that could play a role in

the ability to recover.

lots of things out there to worry about that can keep us sick. I couldn't

believe the difference in how I felt day to day by just getting a brita pitcher

and filtering my water.

so much to think about.

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Hi,

I left everything behind the first time. (how it happened  is a different

story) , my next moves I have had to leave some of the little items behind

too. 

I belive you get to a point where you can just tell it is making you sick, item

not OK.  This time the same, stuff will be left behind.  Clothes are already

ruined.  One wash has not fixed the problem. I will keep trying until we

leave, but right now they are not usable.  It is hard to do do-overs with

close

to nothing to work with.   

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: ldelp84227 <ldelp84227@...>

Sent: Thu, December 16, 2010 11:11:04 AM

Subject: [] Re: Avoidance

 

We are all different even though there are many similarities. I had several

moldy places and I would not have been able to throw everything away 3 or 4

times. I did throw away a lot. So many couches,beds, washers, etc. during these

moves. But also I was able to wash some clothes and was okay with them and

didn't throw everything away. You have to be your own judge. Guess since I had

so many moves after a while you know.

I am not as weak as when I was in the moldy homes/apartments. My main problem at

this point I believe is candida and I avoid most chemicals as much as possible.

I am on my own --no medical treatment since 2002-- that is just how it is

especially since my husband's quadruple bypass surgery.

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> New clothing is treated with anti-wrinkle chemicals that are formaldehyde

>releasing. If you are chemically sensitive, the

>

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