Re: Re:Self-defeating actions [WAS: What can off gas and what cannot/Re: P

August 13, 2010

This is a delicate topic and I'm glad you brought it up. There is an

important distinction here. For me, anyway.

I agree that none of us deserves the pain and suffering. But if that

is true then the argument could be made that none of us deserve

the good, either. (Unless we bring religion back into the

discussion, which I don't want to do).

" Deserving " may be the wrong word entirely. Maybe something

more like, " If I know to leave but don't, I will allow future

consequences on myself. "

I realize that there are compelling reasons why we can't all leave

a bad situation or a WDB so I don't want to imply it is their fault.

But I do want to distinguish this from when people hear the

importance of stopping the exposure but don't, yet frantically

search for a cure. The cure is stopping the exposure by removing

it or leaving. Doing neither is like demanding burn ointment while

in the middle of a smoldering house fire.

As I said, this is a delicate topic.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Sorry Carl and KC, but NO ONE deserves what happens. Everyone is

doing

the best they can in their given situation. I think that it's not OK that

you pass judgment. At least if your house burns down you have

insurance

money to cover your expenses. There is none for mold contamination.

Not

everyone has the money to move or get the proper medical care. Some

here are

not only fighting for their own survival but for dependents as well. Most

doctors that I have found that will treat mold require cash for their

services as they are not covered by insurance. Mold illness and chemical

sensitivities are expensive disorders to deal with. Not everyone has deep

enough

pockets.

Jean

" But once we know and once we begin paying attention and learn

and still don't take appropriate action then that is like staying in a

burning building and protesting we can't afford to leave. Besides,

where's the doctor or insurance agent or other authority giving us

permission to leave?

If that situation we deserve what happens. "

August 13, 2010

Carl,

I like your burning fire analogy but one big big difference that I think

freezes victims in their tracks (and this is on top of all the other

factors that lead to inertia like $'s and emotional ties to home and

feeling too sick and weak to find somewhere else to go and finding a

better rather than worse somewhere else...) and that is the social

factor, EVERYONE recognizes that you should run from a fire as fast as

possible, while almost no one accepts that you should run from a musty

or moldy home: " oh that won't hurt you " and you're told you're crazy

and on and on....so a person also has to be very brave in a sense to

buck convention...

Sue

e of stopping the exposure but don't, yet frantically

>search for a cure. The cure is stopping the exposure by removing

>it or leaving. Doing neither is like demanding burn ointment while

>in the middle of a smoldering house fire.

>

>As I said, this is a delicate topic.

>

>Carl Grimes

>Healthy Habitats LLC

>

August 14, 2010

Dave, so sorry......u r bringing tears to my eyes too...hang in there

plz!! sue

August 14, 2010

Tug,

Why do you have to move when the whole house, except for part of the kitchen, is

now non-reactive?

You said recently you have a safe bedroom and bed, the living room and bathrooms

are okay, clothing and bedding have been laundered in non-fragrance detergent

and are no longer causing reactions. The previously problem room you kept closed

is now okay. The crawl space is fixed, the moldy HVAC cleaned and most surfaces

professionally cleaned.

I understand that part of the kitchen is still a problem but only during warm

parts of the day.

So why would that cause you to leave the entire house for an unknown one where

you may have to pay to do all those things again? Your girlfriend loves you and

won't abandon you and has been incredibly understanding and accommodating.

If you are still sick why do you think it is the house and not something else

like your body not yet fully healed and not yet rebalanced? Or delayed reactions

from stores, the gym, other locations, food, nutritional supplements?

I'll ask the group a similar question: When do you know the house is safe

especially if you are still not well?

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] Re:Self-defeating actions [WAS: What can off gas and

what cannot/Re: P

Sue you know me better than anyone else on this group. I've waited an entire

lifetime to find my g/f and knowing that i may have to move is actually breaking

my heart. When I was told that I had to leave all my belongings behind because

they might make me sick i had a really hard time dealing with that but as time

went on i knew those items could be replace but my g/f thats a different story.

Me and this woman are soul mates, we were meant to be together

>

> Dave, so sorry......u r bringing tears to my eyes too...hang in there

> plz!! sue

>

August 14, 2010

and home ownership is no guarantee of safety, we just fled our home we

own, lived their 21 years, didn't know until a year ago we had a mold

problem and then it took a while to figure out what to do about it, and

even once fixed the docs say my sick son should never live there again,

so now we are renters and happy to be renters because that affords

flexibility, most stuff in storage and can move on if this place proves

problematic...

sue

>

>the truely best chance we have of controling our environment is by

>owning our own house, made to accomadate our illness.

>thats just not going to happen for everyone.

>that only happens when you get nation wide attn. and Ophra desides to

>build everyone a home or you get on home makeover.

>

August 14, 2010

I can only speak from our own sample size of one really sick person and

also from encounters with really sick people down at Dr rea's housing in

dallas.

My son is totally masked, we don't know if the new house, yard, etc. is

bothering him as there is really no change in his condition here yet.

And in fact he had gotten more congested, I thought well maybe he is

reacting to the trees around here or something. Now last night I pulled

the brand new expensive mattress topper off his air mattress (still

waiting for the bed frame and futon) and probably the combo of no

ventilation under the bed (slats), the plastic air mattress, and him

lying in one spot 24/7, the mattress topper is now moldy on the

underside that was against the top of the air mattress, so he's been

lying in mold now for a week or two, just discovered it, that mattress

topper isn't more than 3 weeks old, I have changed the sheets in that

time period, although not as often as I'd like due to moving, him always

in the bed, etc. but didn't think to turn the thing....now it is on the

balcony waiting to be tossed...hopefully that was the cause of increased

congestion and it will subside, or else it is something else, who knows,

at dr rea's his congestion decreased measurably which is so strange

living right next to the freeway in all that dallas pollution, go figure...

And I don't expect big improvements just cause we are out of our moldy

house, he has so much else wrong with him that has to be addressed and

will probably require nutritional support, antifungals, antibiotics,

chelation and more, so no quick fix...

On the other hand, met a lot of patients at dr rea's who either know

exactly what they are reacting to, or they think they do.....that makes

avoidance easier in theory but much is hard to avoid in our polluted world.

sue

>I'll ask the group a similar question: When do you know the house is

>safe especially if you are still not well?

>

>Carl Grimes

>Healthy Habitats LLC

>(fm my Blackberry)

>

> [] Re:Self-defeating actions [WAS: What can off

>gas and what cannot/Re: P

>

>Sue you know me better than anyone else on this group. I've waited an

>entire lifetime to find my g/f and knowing that i may have to move is

>actually breaking my heart. When I was told that I had to leave all my

>belongings behind because they might make me sick i had a really hard

>time dealing with that but as time went on i knew those items could be

>replace but my g/f thats a different story. Me and this woman are soul

>mates, we were meant to be together

>

>>

>> Dave, so sorry......u r bringing tears to my eyes too...hang in there

>> plz!! sue

>>

>

August 15, 2010

Sue,

You're exactly right! One of the people I interviewed in my book

talks about how people in a cast and crutches is instantly

accepted with never a thought they might be faking. It's a shared

experience, something we can all relate to. But the " invisible "

conditions like MCS, CIRS-WDB, FM etc are not readily

recognized by society and are not shared experiences unless

they can relate to it.

Here on many of us find others who do recognize

and share our experience and that is very, very important for both

the giver and the receiver.

The danger, however - and it is a danger - is if the sharing

distracts you from YOUR reality because your new friends, eager

to help, inadvertantly support you with THEIR reality. Which

usually will have critical differences.

Some got well by leaving their house. Others got well by fixing

their house. Others got well enough by improving their house so it

is at least tolerable. Still others aren't reacting to the house but to

cleaning or personal care products, or food, or a delayed reaction

from another location.

I had a client a few years ago who moved from a really moldy

house to a new one with no water damage or mold. But

periodically got sick. With some detailed investigation and an

activity diary she realized she got sick about 6 hours after

exercising at a semi-enclosed walking track. The track was wood

over dirt and often damp. Once she stopped going there she

began healing. Still not well at times but generally on the uprise.

If the house is NOT making you sick or if it has been fixed to the

point where it is good enough, then leaving it may be worse than

staying in a burning building. You are running from a non-burning

building. And because of the confusion of what is safe and what

isn't the next house you run to may, in fact, be smoldering.

This is why I previously posted the question about how have each

of you decided that the house was okay even if you were still sick.

It's a very important question for all of us.