Mold Testing for Safety [was: Re: air purifier and cleaning house]

[Guest guest]

a,

I left out the simplest method: If you or your family react in the

house, feel better when you leave, only to react again upon re-

entry that is all you need to know. There is a problem. It may not

be for anyone else but it is for that specific individual.

Figuring out what it is, what to do, and how to interpret results is

often very simple. But as many on this group will tell you it can

sometimes be difficult, exasperating, and unending. But not

always.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

a,

Good question and I hope my answer doesn't overwhelm or

discourage you. There is a simpler and more accurate method

than sampling which I offer at the end. But first it will help to

understand why sampling won't answer your question about

safety.

There is no air sampling - do-it-yourself or professional - which by

itself is reliable for much of anything beyond determining that

Yes, this is mold or No, this is not mold. Plus what kind of mold

was collected and identified in the sample with a semi-

quantitative measure of amount (meaning there are numbers but

they are usually not accurate). It will not tell you what mold is

present but which wasn't collected and identified. Which is often

much of the mold.

Mold spores are always in the air, inside and outside. Until you

are extremely sensitive and perhaps disabled those ambient

spores won't be a problem. And you can't get rid of them anyway.

Mold *growth* is the problem, not just the ambient spores always

present in the air. Mold growth occurs only at the location of

dampness.

When there is dampness there will also be bacteria and other

micro-organisms. If the dampness persists or is periodic then

dust collects in the damp area providing more food for more

growth. The specific conditions of that micro-environment change

over time supporting the growth of different molds, bacteria, etc.

Which means that checking for mold, even if the sampling were

accurate (which it rarely is) is not sufficient to determine safety for

people. Because mold sampling won't find most of the mold or

any of the bacteria or growth of other organisms.

Also, mold sampling will only find the seeds (spores) which

develop from the total plant (mold colony). Colonies don't always

create spores just like flowers and trees don't always create their

seeds.

Entact spores from mold growth under floors or inside walls, for

example, often can't get out of the wall and no air sample will

ever find them. Although the smaller pieces of fragmented spores

and " mold plant " do get out and expose people the mold

sampling won't find it because it can only find entact spores.

Identification of mold biomass in dust samples is the where labs

identify the DNA through a process called PCR. This can identify

over 160 species of mold.

A shortened version called Environmental Relative Moldiness

Index (ERMI) has been touted as a way for the lab to create a

single digit number to identify whether mold is a problem or not.

However, neither the inventor nor the EPA which funded his

research, support ERMI as a diagnostic for homes and certainly

not for health. Last June EPA released a statement specifically

saying ERMI is to be used for research only.

However, in proper hands with sufficient samples from

appropriate locations the PCR information (minus the index

number) from an ERMI sample can provide valuable information.

But it is still just one method providing information unique to itself

just like all the spore detection methods described above provide

information unique to themselves.

The components which make up the cell wall of the spores are

also in the cell walls of the total " mold plant. " It is these " things " in

the cell walls (and inside the cell) which trigger allergies, asthma

attacks, neurologic conditions and a myriad of other possible

reactions including a disruption of the immune system and other

body organs.

Assuming we could accurately measure " how much " mold spores

and bacteria you are exposed to, we still wouldn't know " how

much " of which of the millions of species is necessary to trigger a

reaction in you. You may react tp only a couple of spores but I

wouldn't react until there were a couple of thousand spores.

My reaction my be life threatening (like an asthma attack) to one

type of mold or bacteria or even inert particles (dust) but barely

noticeable to another person. What is " okay " for me may be life

threatening to someone else.

If you have a medical condition identified by a health care

professional (not always an MD) and they can identify a specific

type of organism then sampling is necessary to try to find that

organism in your home. Air sampling can be helpful here with an

appropriate sampling plan to determine presence and, with

enough samples collected over a long enough time, an estimate

of exposure.

Because different sampling types tend to identify a limited range

of all the molds and bacteria which could be present, there needs

to be a variety of sampling types collected. Dr Thrasher who is

also on this list has excellent information about this at his Web

site at: www.drthrasher.org

Which leads to those other " things " in the cell walls and beyond.

Mold growth oozes enzymes to digest its food. The enzymes can

be at least an irritant if not an allergen or other " trigger. "

While growing the mold plant also generates microbial Volatile

Organic Compounds (MVOCs). These are in the same family,

and are some of the same chemicals, which chemically intolerant

people react to. Such things a odors, fragrances, formaldehyde,

detergents, deodorants, fungicides, anti-microbial chemicals,

paint, etc. This can cause massive confusion if you aren't reactive

to the mold spores and " plant " particles but are to the chemicals

they give off.

Mycotoxins from mold and endotoxins from bacteria are another

concern. Less is known about them in water damaged buildings

(WDB) and testing is very expensive. There is only one lab

analyzing environmental samples at this time and the cost is over

$700 per sample. IF there is a need for medical or legal reasons

and IF the samples are properly collected, then mycotoxin

information can be helpful.

Finally, dead mold causes the same health effects as live mold

so it is almost always a waste of time, money and energy to

struggle with killing mold.

Remove the mold and there is nothing to kill. If you can't remove

the mold from the surface it is growing on then remove that

surface. If removal of the sources isn't sufficient then remove

yourself from the house.

Now for the simpler and more accurate method.

No mold sampling of any type gives meaningful information

without a context. How the numbers are interpreted depends on

climate, the type of house, the materials the house is made of,

how many people are in the house, the age and condition of the

house, history including any past floods, leaks, or sewer

backflows, condensation in the walls, proper installation of

insulation, and psychrometrics (dynamic interaction of humidity,

temperature, dew point and surface temperature), to name but a

few.

What may be " safe " for one person may be " unsafe " for another.

The main reason why the numbers have no meaning by

themselves.

If these factors, including your individual susceptibility profile, are

identified then sampling data can have meaning. If these are

identified by an inspection by a knowledgeable person then 90%

of the time no sampling is needed because this information will

identify mold growth locations and suspected mold growth

locations. (Which will include locations of bacteria and other

organisms also).

Which means your questions will be answered without the

sampling.

The trick is to find someone who understands this and will

provide a sufficient inspection instead of collecting a couple of

spore traps or settling plates and reading the history of the world

in the " tea leaves. "

They are out there. A key to qualifying them is to ask for their

certifications (quality ones can be found at hhcontractors.org plus

training. The knowledge base of the training should be

independent from the organization providing the training.

Otherwise you get someone trained to sell the products and

services which make money for the organization.

But for me the key question is, " Do you first inspect and then

take samples only if my questions cannot be answered any other

way? "

Sorry for the long answer but without this understanding your will

most likely get information you will rely on but the information is

not reliable. That gives false assurance and false hope, which

can be harmful and is inherently cruel.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

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I am new to this group and this is my first posting: is there a reliable do

yourself AIR SAMPLING kit out there anybody had experience with? I

know we do have mold in one area of the house (on the outside and

inside the walls) and heat a lot in winter time to keep it there. But as we

have a baby, I'd like to double check and be safe...

Thank you for any advice!

a

[Guest guest]

Carl,

I understand what you are saying about air sampling and now I wish I hadn't

mentioned it. But here is why I had it done in the home I was in and what I

found out for myself personally.

I moved in with a roommate who lives in an old mobile home. This is a rural

area and very few have built their own homes. I've come to learn just how

problematic mobiles are when it comes to mold. There was no visible mold

growing anywhere in her mobile but I could smell it in one of the bathrooms. I

really didn't think there was an issue in any of the other rooms but after being

there a while I stopped being able to take my protocols which up until now has

always meant mold exposure. (I found out later the problem with that wasn't

mold related. I hadn't changed to a different antifungal and learned I have to

rotate them frequently)

Because I was worried about mold I had a mold inspector come and he was

surprised when he looked around because there was no visible mold anywhere. He

thought I might be quite off in my beliefs about mold and grilled me thoroughly

to find out why I was concerned for my health, what my beliefs were about mold,

etc. It was very loving of him to take that kind of time out of his day, but as

he was not a stranger to me and he took the time. We finally decided to take

air samples to see if there was indeed a problem somewhere that couldn't be

seen. Maybe at least I could know what areas to avoid. I don't have to smell

mold to be affected by it, which is why I unknowingly was exposed to it for so

long.

The results showed a level of stachybotrys in the room I had been sleeping in of

120/m3. He told me not to go in that room, but the other two rooms were fine.

For a week I had been very heavy and weak, had very increased neurological

symptoms, anxiety, and could barely get my food prepared. 36 hours after

leaving that room my strength returned and I felt much better.

I had not smelled mold in that room, only in the adjoining bathroom, and thought

maybe the source of the mold was from there every time the door was opened. The

mold inspector told us to run the exhaust fan in the bathroom, which we did for

hours (mold smell disappeared), and then we did it again later with the door

open to draw out the air from the bedroom. He also told us to wipe the walls

in the room with water and hepa vacuum. I thought maybe I'd be able to be in

there after that but stayed out just the same.

In the living room where I was staying the stachybotrys level was 27/m3 and

didn't seem to bother me or cause any problems. Then heavy rains came and the

house became humid and I could smell mold in the other room I'd been avoiding

just on walking in. I eventually had to leave the house altogether because the

mold levels rose in the other rooms as well and I reacted too hard to stay. I

have since learned that a dehumidifier would have done the trick and brought the

mold count back down again.

I realize I am reactive to amounts of mold that are too low to bother other

people or for them to smell. I don't know if the problem with mold is the mold

itself or the VOC's from them. Possibly I am also reacting to bacteria and

other toxins from WDB when I am reacting to mold. I know there are tens of

thousands of kinds of molds and I seem to have a problem with any kind. I can't

eat foods that contain molds like blue cheese, peanuts, or even bread (yeast).

So I have quite a way to go to recover and get healthy again.

I don't know whether I will have air sampling done again in future. It is very

expensive and it may just be better to go by how I feel physically when there is

no signs or smell of mold. After all, just because it is good or bad the day of

the test doesn't mean it will stay that way.

anita

[Guest guest]

Dr Thrasher. You of course are correct.

But my point continues to be one of prevalence and priority. Are you telling the

masses that their predominant concern with WDB, a subset of all ,

ought to be the less frequent infection and colonization rather than the usual

chronic inflammatory response syndrome?

How should those of us in this group determine when to respond as if we are

infected/colonized and when allergic or inflamed?

My concern is that some are becoming immediately afraid and seeking first

treatment based on the greatest fear rather than starting with the most likely

and advancing with reasonableness and relevant evidence.

I am not contesting the facts and consequences of infection or colonization. But

of prevalence and priority.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

Re: [] Re: Mold Testing for Safety [was: Re: air purifier

and cleaning house]

Candia infections are usually consider to arise from being in the digestive

tract, however they can become systemic, e.g. infection of intravenous

catheters. Usually, the over use of antibiotics allows the Candida to

proliferate. However, immune suppression by chemicals can also allow this to

occur.

Yes, dead spores do not infect. However, live spores do two things: colonize

(which may be considered and infection) and actually cause an infection. e.g.

aspergillomas of the lungs, brain and other tissues. I have worked with Drs.

Gray and Hooper for a number of years. We have actually identified Aspergillus

in biopsy and autopsy materials as well as detecting mycotoxins. In the worse

case scenario systemic infection with Aspergillus can and does occur. The

subjects have been neonates, young adults, adults and the elderly.

Aspergillomas of the sinuses can be said to either be a colonization or an

infection. The Aspergillus can and does in immune compromised and non

compromised individuals enter the brain via the olfactory tract. If the mold

invades the tissues of the body, by definition, it is an infection.

Re: [] Re: Mold Testing for Safety [was: Re: air

purifier and cleaning house]

Jack,

What you say is true but my point is " can " infect and " will " infect do not

have the same prevalence. The number of non-infectious events is still huge

compared to infectious ones.

....snip

[Guest guest]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen

> > I think I see a more enlightened doctor than most. She sees it as an

imbalance of bacteria with the ultimate causation being rather

complex--antibiotic use is one factor, plus hormonal changes.

>