Re: Are these ok levels for a home???

[Guest guest]

My experience, if just a thumbnail, these are very low colony counts. Similar to

a " clean " house, even some that have been intentionally cleaned for mold

contamination (dust/debris).

However, there are too many unknown factors to state a conclusion. See other

posts by Grimes, Thrasher, myself, for more info on interpreting and sampling

for mold -- and how and why and when.

So, if you supply more data, like how, when, what, then we might be able to let

you know what we really think.

For now, stick to the history and current condition of the building to make any

decisions, not this single sample. It is probably both invalid and unreliable

(these are sampling methods terms, see also more about statistics and sampling).

>

> Spore Identification Results in Colonies

> Bipolaris/Drechslera 1

> Cladosporium 3

> Curvularia 1

> Nigrospora 2

> Penicillium 1

> Non-sporulating fungi 4

> Chlamydospores 1

> Total Result: 13

>

[Guest guest]

If this is a single air sample. The answer is not necessarily so. Have you had

water intrusion? Did they test for moisture content of interior and exterior

walls, did they inspect and test wall cavities as well as the attics? I am sure

Carl will produce additional questions.

[] Are these " ok " levels for a home???

Spore Identification Results in Colonies

Bipolaris/Drechslera 1

Cladosporium 3

Curvularia 1

Nigrospora 2

Penicillium 1

Non-sporulating fungi 4

Chlamydospores 1

Total Result: 13

[Guest guest]

Levels and types by themselves do not determine is a home is " Okay. " Much more

information is needed.

Are these air samples or surface samples? Collection method and length of

sampling time or area of collection. Cultured or microscopy? If cultured what

type of agar? Which lab?

Type of building. Where in building. History of water damage, if any. Geographic

location and climate.

Are you sick while in the house? Feel better when you leave only to feel worse

upon return? What are your known allergies, respiratory conditions, and other

reactions and symptoms?

All these and more are critical to any meaningful interpretation of any lab

results.

These are spore results only. There can be massive mold growth present without

detectable spores. All sampling methods tend to see only select items. Bacteria

often plays a larger role than mold.

And these are but some of the reasons why there are no established levels like

there are for radon or asbestos or carbon monoxide, for example.

I'd you could send me the lab report several of the questions will be answered.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] Are these " ok " levels for a home???

Spore Identification Results in Colonies

Bipolaris/Drechslera 1

Cladosporium 3

Curvularia 1

Nigrospora 2

Penicillium 1

Non-sporulating fungi 4

Chlamydospores 1

Total Result: 13

[Guest guest]

From: Carl Grimes

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 1:00 PM

Sick Buildings

Subject: Re: [] Are these " ok " levels for a home???

Levels and types by themselves do not determine is a home is " Okay. " Much more

information is needed.

Are these air samples or surface samples? yes they are air samples.

“Settling†samples is what it was called. Purchased a kit at Home Depot and

mailed the petri dish in to a lab called ProLabs.

Collection method and length of sampling time or area of collection. You place

the petri dish and leave it open for one hour where you want to test the air.

After one hour is complete, you then replace the lid and allow to incubate for

48 hours.

Cultured or microscopy? If cultured what type of agar? Microscopy, I believe.

Not sure about what type of agar.

Which lab? ProLab/SSPTM Inc. in FL

Type of building. Where in building.- Residential. Fort Worth, TX

History of water damage, if any.- Yes home apparently got drenched during the

building process and since had numerous leaks due to plumbing issues.

Geographic location and climate- Southwest Region and it’s a dry climate.

Are you sick while in the house? Always!!

Feel better when you leave only to feel worse upon return? Yes

What are your known allergies, respiratory conditions, and other reactions and

symptoms? Prior to living in this home, we had no known allergies or respiratory

conditions expect for my son (who has had allergies since he was three but know

has chronic asthma and horrible allergies). We now all suffer from constant

respiratory complications, nose bleeds, constant headaches, swollen, itchy eyes,

dermatitis, extreme fatigue, and symptoms similar to the common cold.

All these and more are critical to any meaningful interpretation of any lab

results.

These are spore results only. There can be massive mold growth present without

detectable spores. All sampling methods tend to see only select items. Bacteria

often plays a larger role than mold.

And these are but some of the reasons why there are no established levels like

there are for radon or asbestos or carbon monoxide, for example.

I'd you could send me the lab report several of the questions will be answered.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] Are these " ok " levels for a home???

Spore Identification Results in Colonies

Bipolaris/Drechslera 1

Cladosporium 3

Curvularia 1

Nigrospora 2

Penicillium 1

Non-sporulating fungi 4

Chlamydospores 1

Total Result: 13

[Guest guest]

While searching on " Chlamydospores, " because I wasn't familiar

with it, I found the following:

First, Chlamydospores are developed by the fungi commonly

known as the " fairy ring mushroom " because it grows in a circle

on the ground. It's a mushroom, not usually associated with

WDB, or health effects unless perhaps if you eat it.

More telling, it illustrates how the food (agar) in a culture plate

changes not just what grows, but how it grows, giving different

identifications and names. 2.0% malt agar produces different

results than 0.2%.

" In Marasmius oreades germination of a basidiospore on 2.0 %

malt agar gives a relatively long, narrow germ-tube that soon

branches to produce a mycelium. However, on 0.2 % malt agar

either the basidiospore gives a short, fat germ-tube which soon

ceases to grow and in which a single chlamydospore is formed,

or a chlamydospore is formed within the basidiospore without any

germ-tube being produced. "

In the original post, all of the identified organisms can (or are)

typical in outside air not indicating a " problem. "

However, if the Chlamydospore is from a mushroom growing

inside the home then that most likely is a problem. One of long

term dampness. It takes a very long time for mushrooms to grow

on building materials.

I wouldn't expect the Chlamydospore to be a health risk but

because the long term dampness will most certainly have

bacteria, biofilm, and the associated filth there may well be a

" problem. "

If there are health effects then they certainly are showing up with

these results, demonstrating once again we need more than

numbers.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

I think it will help if we all have a clearer understanding of what

mold is and what it isn't. Google has some really good photos

which can be accessed by searching for " mold growth " and then

clicking on " Images. "

What you see is often like the first image (and most of the

others). This iconic image by Terry Brennan shows colonies of a

variety of types of mold resulting from airborne moisture flow

through the top of the door and across the ceiling. It is not

growing on the walls. Where you sample will make a huge

difference in the lab results.

The image 3rd to the right is much different. Mold is growing on

the walls but not the ceiling because the water source soaked up

the drywall from the floor. Also, notice how the color changes

right near the top of the growth. Different mold because of slightly

different moisture levels at the edge of the dampness. If this area

were to be sampled you would get drastically different results

based on the exact location of the sample.

If any of the above mold growth were sporulating then their

spores, along with others having nothing to do with the situation,

might show up depending on the type of sample, where collected,

etc etc.

BTW, I've seen air samples from rooms like many in these

images with the conclusion that " there is no mold problem. "

Because of the assinine and discredited methods of interpreting

results, plus the bias of who collected the samples. But that is for

another time.

Scrolling down you will see " Page 2 " and the first image is a

culture plate with mold growth. It looks much different than the

previous images for obvious reasons and because it is from a

settling plate. Only the spores in the air which are alive and which

are heavy enough to settle from the air and happen by chance to

land on the plate which has the right kind of food (agar) will grow.

They may or may not be from the " growth " in the previous

images.

What none of these show is bacteria, actinomycetes, and

anything other then mold *growth.*

The growth, or colony, is what is visible. Spores are the seeds

and are too small to see with the naked eye. Got to Page 4 and

the first image shows spores flowing from a single stalk of the

mold growth colony. All of which is too small to see with the

naked eye.

Page 5, second down, left side. This identifies some of the many

parts of a mold growth colony. The illustration below it is a

diagram of mold growth. BTW, the MC (moisture content of the

surface) will determine whether or not mold spores will germinate

and form colonies. Of all the different types of spores always in

the air only some will grow. Change the MC slightly and different

ones will grow.

BTW, the surface with MC where the mold is growing is where

the " biofilm " will form. It is not automatic and is not part of the

mold " plant. " It is a film of dampness along with dust, old mold,

bacteria and other " filth " which accumulates on the surface over

time. As it develops other molds and bacteria previously unable

to grow may now start to " make babies " and further populate their

little " city " called a " biofilm. "

Go back to the culture plate on Page 2. What you see is mold

growth which will have some spores. But the massive amount of

substance is " biomass " and not spores. Which is part of what Dr

Thrasher means when he says about mold, " It's more than just

spores. "

But it means much more. With dampness there will also be

growth of bacteria. It just doesn't grow in a way we can see it and

few test for it. General samples for bacteria is limited to the shape

(rod, cone, spiral) and whether it changes color with a stain (gram

positive) or doesn't (gram negative).

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

As the late great Dr Marinkovich told me, you can't get better with 4 or more

colony's

From: Carl Grimes <grimes@...>

Subject: Re: [] Are these " ok " levels for a home???

" Sick Buildings " < >

Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 10:00 AM

Levels and types by themselves do not determine is a home is " Okay. " Much

more information is needed.

Are these air samples or surface samples? Collection method and length of

sampling time or area of collection. Cultured or microscopy? If cultured what

type of agar? Which lab?

Type of building. Where in building. History of water damage, if any. Geographic

location and climate.

Are you sick while in the house? Feel better when you leave only to feel worse

upon return? What are your known allergies, respiratory conditions, and other

reactions and symptoms?

All these and more are critical to any meaningful interpretation of any lab

results.

These are spore results only. There can be massive mold growth present without

detectable spores. All sampling methods tend to see only select items. Bacteria

often plays a larger role than mold.

And these are but some of the reasons why there are no established levels like

there are for radon or asbestos or carbon monoxide, for example.

I'd you could send me the lab report several of the questions will be answered.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[Guest guest]

a,

Did Dr. Marinkovich say if those were 4 colonies per sq inch, or

per cubic meter, or some other measure?

I'm not familiar with his method of interpretation or sampling but

I'd guess he was talking about 4 colonies on a settling plate. One

study I'm familiar with correlated settling plate numbers to

Andersen sampler numbers. One colony on a plate was

equavalent to 700-1200 on an Andersen sampler.

If my guess is he used settling plates then I'd agree with the 4

colonies being too much but qualify it to say something like,

" Four colonies on a sampling plate is too much because each

colony may represent from 700-1200 others which were not

detected. Including spores which settled but didn't grow plus

fragments of spores and hyphae containing allergens, irritants,

and toxins could increase the equivalent numbers by as much as

1000 times more. "

4 times 1200 is 4800, times 1000 is 4,800,000. The problem is

these are extremely rough guesses and estimations of what

might be. To fine tune it find out if the 4 spores actually represent

4.8M or if there were only 4 spores present and the plate

captured them all requires additional methods and techniques.

Even then, absolute or definitive conclusions are tough to come

by.

BTW, I'm not commenting on Dr Marinkovich or his treatment.

Only on how mold spores are measured by various methods.

Neither am I discounting the effects of mold. What I am saying is

there are no methods which can quantify " mold " and its effects on

people in general with anything even approaching accuracy.

Which is but one reason why mold data is so easy to shoot down

in court.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

As the late great Dr Marinkovich told me, you can't get better with 4 or

more colony's

From: Carl Grimes <grimes@...>

Subject: Re: [] Are these " ok " levels for a home???

" Sick Buildings " < >

Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 10:00 AM

Levels and types by themselves do not determine is a home is " Okay. "

Much more information is needed.

Are these air samples or surface samples? Collection method and length

of sampling time or area of collection. Cultured or microscopy? If

cultured what type of agar? Which lab?

Type of building. Where in building. History of water damage, if any.

Geographic location and climate.

Are you sick while in the house? Feel better when you leave only to feel

worse upon return? What are your known allergies, respiratory

conditions, and other reactions and symptoms?

All these and more are critical to any meaningful interpretation of any

lab results.

These are spore results only. There can be massive mold growth present

without detectable spores. All sampling methods tend to see only select

items. Bacteria often plays a larger role than mold.

And these are but some of the reasons why there are no established

levels like there are for radon or asbestos or carbon monoxide, for

example.

I'd you could send me the lab report several of the questions will be

answered.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

----------

The following section of this message contains a file attachment

prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.

If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,

you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.

If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

---- File information -----------

File: DEFAULT.BMP

Date: 15 Jun 2009, 23:10

Size: 358 bytes.

Type: Unknown

[Guest guest]

Thanks Carl

He would suggest a plate in room open for only 20 min where you thought you had

concerns.   If you were colonized he wanted to make sure you were not getting

re-exposed.    He said anything over 4 colonies was not good.   

a

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Subject: Re: [] Are these " ok " levels for a home???

Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 3:50 PM

a,

Did Dr. Marinkovich say if those were 4 colonies per sq inch, or

per cubic meter, or some other measure?

I'm not familiar with his method of interpretation or sampling but

I'd guess he was talking about 4 colonies on a settling plate. One

study I'm familiar with correlated settling plate numbers to

Andersen sampler numbers. One colony on a plate was

equavalent to 700-1200 on an Andersen sampler.

If my guess is he used settling plates then I'd agree with the 4

colonies being too much but qualify it to say something like,

" Four colonies on a sampling plate is too much because each

colony may represent from 700-1200 others which were not

detected. Including spores which settled but didn't grow plus

fragments of spores and hyphae containing allergens, irritants,

and toxins could increase the equivalent numbers by as much as

1000 times more. "

4 times 1200 is 4800, times 1000 is 4,800,000. The problem is

these are extremely rough guesses and estimations of what

might be. To fine tune it find out if the 4 spores actually represent

4.8M or if there were only 4 spores present and the plate

captured them all requires additional methods and techniques.

Even then, absolute or definitive conclusions are tough to come

by.

BTW, I'm not commenting on Dr Marinkovich or his treatment.

Only on how mold spores are measured by various methods.

Neither am I discounting the effects of mold. What I am saying is

there are no methods which can quantify " mold " and its effects on

people in general with anything even approaching accuracy.

Which is but one reason why mold data is so easy to shoot down

in court.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

As the late great Dr Marinkovich told me, you can't get better with 4 or

more colony's

[Guest guest]

Thanks, a. That's a decent screening method for potential

exposure of the occupied environment within the context of his

medical practice rather then just numbers by themselves.

However, they would be of no help (actually a hinderance) in

litigation or for medical diagnosis of a specific disease.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Thanks Carl

He would suggest a plate in room open for only 20 min where you

thought you had concerns. If you were colonized he wanted to make

sure you were not getting re-exposed. He said anything over 4 colonies

was not good.

a

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Subject: Re: [] Are these " ok " levels for a home???

Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 3:50 PM

a,

Did Dr. Marinkovich say if those were 4 colonies per sq inch, or

per cubic meter, or some other measure?

I'm not familiar with his method of interpretation or sampling but

I'd guess he was talking about 4 colonies on a settling plate. One

study I'm familiar with correlated settling plate numbers to

Andersen sampler numbers. One colony on a plate was

equavalent to 700-1200 on an Andersen sampler.

If my guess is he used settling plates then I'd agree with the 4

colonies being too much but qualify it to say something like,

" Four colonies on a sampling plate is too much because each

colony may represent from 700-1200 others which were not

detected. Including spores which settled but didn't grow plus

fragments of spores and hyphae containing allergens, irritants,

and toxins could increase the equivalent numbers by as much as

1000 times more. "

4 times 1200 is 4800, times 1000 is 4,800,000. The problem is

these are extremely rough guesses and estimations of what

might be. To fine tune it find out if the 4 spores actually represent

4.8M or if there were only 4 spores present and the plate

captured them all requires additional methods and techniques.

Even then, absolute or definitive conclusions are tough to come

by.

BTW, I'm not commenting on Dr Marinkovich or his treatment.

Only on how mold spores are measured by various methods.

Neither am I discounting the effects of mold. What I am saying is

there are no methods which can quantify " mold " and its effects on

people in general with anything even approaching accuracy.

Which is but one reason why mold data is so easy to shoot down

in court.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

As the late great Dr Marinkovich told me, you can't get better with 4 or

more colony's

----------

The following section of this message contains a file attachment

prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.

If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,

you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.

If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

---- File information -----------

File: DEFAULT.BMP

Date: 15 Jun 2009, 23:10

Size: 358 bytes.

Type: Unknown

[Guest guest]

Wow. Is all I can say. Well, and this:

The whole settling plate method is full of validity and reliability issues. I'm

certain that " one hour " in the middle of a room would in no way be

representative of the potential exposure. Just someone (or somedog) walking by

could invalidate the results.

The point of 4 colonies too much, only if they are species that matter. In other

words, the Dr. was saying he was looking for pathogenic species in roomos where

" infected " patients were going to live. Hence, he was concerned about those

relatively few that actually can infect a person.

I am very uncomfortable with the website lab that accompanies the cleaner

website; it has no info at all, only an order form for " gravity plates " , $64.00.

All other is signup/signin. Why is it not public?

The cleaner website is typical product marketing website. Nothing special.

Like Carl said, this gets very confusing with different agencies (EPA or FDA)

and the ability of a manufacturer to keep some ingredients secret (i.e.,

proprietary) from the user.

Again, the product should not only be careully reveiwed, it should be tested by

any user who is concerned with effects because of known or suspect sensitivities

to specific or generic chemicals.

I am always uncomfortable with fogging unless for very specific purpsoses. It is

really best at " knocking down " airborne particulates, and second for an

immediate surface kill in large growth situations where we want to put people in

place for cleanup. But, then you can use just about any cleaner solution to

achieve the effect. And you must go in asap to clean (remove) and dry.

>

> Thanks Carl

> He would suggest a plate in room open for only 20 min where you thought you

had concerns.   If you were colonized he wanted to make sure you were not

getting re-exposed.    He said anything over 4 colonies was not good.   

>

> a

>

>

[Guest guest]

Am I missing something? The CFU counts you reported were not only single digit,

some were only 1. That is nearly nothing. The ability to find under 10 CFU's is

not hard.

I would be generally not concerned if I could trust the methodology of the

collection (see Carls description, and many others). but I don't.

If there is a good inspection, you can put these in perspective.

(Remeber, all comparisons must be relative to other things)

Again, if there was visible mold growth, these concentrations are very small

and indicate little sporulation or disturbance of the growth. If there is no

known growth in the space, then these indicate very little outside air

infiltration.

It'd be interesting for you to repeat this but add another plate outdoors. It

might lead to interesting analyses of the indoors and your exposures.

Then, if you have the money, repeat this another time under different weather

conditions.

>

> Thanks, a. That's a decent screening method for potential

> exposure of the occupied environment within the context of his

> medical practice rather then just numbers by themselves.

> However, they would be of no help (actually a hinderance) in

> litigation or for medical diagnosis of a specific disease.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

> Thanks Carl

> He would suggest a plate in room open for only 20 min where you

> thought you had concerns. If you were colonized he wanted to make

> sure you were not getting re-exposed. He said anything over 4 colonies

> was not good.

>

> a

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have a question, the counts seemed to me to be very good and very low, say

those results were taken with air testing in a room were there was carpet and

traffic , what about accummalation of " filth " spores fragments,ect. in a WDB

situation?

how would you get that low of a count inless there wasn't a mold problem? I

know discusion was on plates but aridginal post from plates or air testing?

with plates would there also be a difference in say one tiny spot of growth vs.

the plate being full of multiple growths?

>

> Am I missing something? The CFU counts you reported were not only single

digit, some were only 1. That is nearly nothing. The ability to find under 10

CFU's is not hard.

> I would be generally not concerned if I could trust the methodology of the

collection (see Carls description, and many others). but I don't.

> If there is a good inspection, you can put these in perspective.

> (Remeber, all comparisons must be relative to other things)

> Again, if there was visible mold growth, these concentrations are very small

and indicate little sporulation or disturbance of the growth. If there is no

known growth in the space, then these indicate very little outside air

infiltration.

> It'd be interesting for you to repeat this but add another plate outdoors. It

might lead to interesting analyses of the indoors and your exposures.

> Then, if you have the money, repeat this another time under different weather

conditions.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

The original post only had numbers. We don't know if those were

colony forming units (CFUs from culturing) or spore counts

(microscopy).

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Am I missing something? The CFU counts you reported were not only single digit,

some were only 1. That is nearly nothing. The ability to find under 10 CFU's is

not hard.

I would be generally not concerned if I could trust the methodology of the

collection (see Carls description, and many others). but I don't.

If there is a good inspection, you can put these in perspective.

(Remeber, all comparisons must be relative to other things)

Again, if there was visible mold growth, these concentrations are very small and

indicate little sporulation or disturbance of the growth. If there is no known

growth in the space, then these indicate very little outside air infiltration.

It'd be interesting for you to repeat this but add another plate outdoors. It

might lead to interesting analyses of the indoors and your exposures.

Then, if you have the money, repeat this another time under different weather

conditions.

>

> Thanks, a. That's a decent screening method for potential

> exposure of the occupied environment within the context of his

> medical practice rather then just numbers by themselves.

> However, they would be of no help (actually a hinderance) in

> litigation or for medical diagnosis of a specific disease.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

> Thanks Carl

> He would suggest a plate in room open for only 20 min where you

> thought you had concerns. If you were colonized he wanted to make

> sure you were not getting re-exposed. He said anything over 4 colonies

> was not good.

>

> a

>

>

----------

The following section of this message contains a file attachment

prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format.

If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system,

you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer.

If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance.

---- File information -----------

File: DEFAULT.BMP

Date: 15 Jun 2009, 23:10

Size: 358 bytes.

Type: Unknown

[Guest guest]

OK, I thought it was from plates, hence CFU's.

Either way, CFU's or Spore counts (would have to be raw count i.e., actual, not

concentration based on sampling rate, to get that low, right?) It's still very

very low, nearly impossible to get that low without very good air

scrubbing/cleaning, or lots of snow!

>

> ,

>

> The original post only had numbers. We don't know if those were

> colony forming units (CFUs from culturing) or spore counts

> (microscopy).

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>