Re: Some Basics (Questions)

August 17, 2010

Thank you Dr Thrasher,

The house we are moving into is new and has no water damage or moisture issues

at least as per inspector. The construction crew that has been working on the

house has been leaving the windows and doors open which must and hopefully is

accounting for the high spore count in to house of about 1300 spores per cu

meter (air).

This is why I am asking about the ourdoor spores being inside.. now how to get

them out properly...

It seems wiping down surfaces and hepa vaccing floors, walls, ceilings would be

best.

Then I am wondering about mold in bathroom tiles.. are we creating mold

fragments that disperse when using an antifungal cleaner.. Im thinking less

likely when using water to wash away, but also wondering what works on this

stuff and best way to deal with it other than making sure bathroom is properly

ventaliated. Also, many natural cleaners like benefect of grapefruit seed

extract products will kill fungus.. at some point does it really matter?

Thank you...

Robin

August 17, 2010

I understand that mold spores from wet building materials have the gram neg and

gram pos bacteria as well as the endotoxins they release... and that there is a

complete biological habitat the spore is connected to or part of... this makes

the mold more dangerous than a spore.

But the spore also can cause problems as you note below even if dead.. maybe

more or diff problems.. not infection but reaction to the antigen and toxin

still remaining.

Im getting (not sure if I am right) that the bacteria/endotoxins release just as

spores do from growing mold or mold that has been disturbed. Im not sure when

and how the bacteria and endotoxnis die and if we should make any effort to kill

them (Sensing not since kiling them will kill the fungus most likely)... do we

look a the bacteria/endotoxins the same way as the spores/mycotoxins.. you want

to get rid of rather than kill.. then how do you get rid of bacteria? Can you

hepa vac and wipe it away?

This would be after a proper remediation and mold source is removed and water

damage taken care of.

Thank you!

Robin

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> Robin: You have some good questions. I will answer some of them. Carl's

input is also needed. See my answers in red below.

>

August 17, 2010

Hi Robin, Obviously not Dr Thrasher, but even though spores are in the house,

when you close up house, if you keep house clean and dry, spores should die for

lack of food and water on their own and cleaned up by your usual housekeeping.

That's what I think. Will be anxious to read Dr Thrasher's remarks.

>

> Thank you Dr Thrasher,

>

> The house we are moving into is new and has no water damage or moisture issues

at least as per inspector. The construction crew that has been working on the

house has been leaving the windows and doors open which must and hopefully is

accounting for the high spore count in to house of about 1300 spores per cu

meter (air).

>

> This is why I am asking about the ourdoor spores being inside.. now how to get

them out properly...

>

> It seems wiping down surfaces and hepa vaccing floors, walls, ceilings would

be best.

>

> Then I am wondering about mold in bathroom tiles.. are we creating mold

fragments that disperse when using an antifungal cleaner.. Im thinking less

likely when using water to wash away, but also wondering what works on this

stuff and best way to deal with it other than making sure bathroom is properly

ventaliated. Also, many natural cleaners like benefect of grapefruit seed

extract products will kill fungus.. at some point does it really matter?

>

> Thank you...

>

> Robin

>

August 17, 2010

It seems that hepa vaccing as much as possible makes more sense than wiping down

since wiping will possibly be redistributing spores. Wipign with an antifungal

will kill the spores and potentially lead to redistributing fragments .. that

wll then dry and go airborne.

Im sure some wiping helps but I dont see how to wash down a wall or a countertop

for that matter.

Robin

>

> I understand that mold spores from wet building materials have the gram neg

and gram pos bacteria as well as the endotoxins they release... and that there

is a complete biological habitat the spore is connected to or part of... this

makes the mold more dangerous than a spore.

>

> But the spore also can cause problems as you note below even if dead.. maybe

more or diff problems.. not infection but reaction to the antigen and toxin

still remaining.

>

> Im getting (not sure if I am right) that the bacteria/endotoxins release just

as spores do from growing mold or mold that has been disturbed. Im not sure when

and how the bacteria and endotoxnis die and if we should make any effort to kill

them (Sensing not since kiling them will kill the fungus most likely)... do we

look a the bacteria/endotoxins the same way as the spores/mycotoxins.. you want

to get rid of rather than kill.. then how do you get rid of bacteria? Can you

hepa vac and wipe it away?

>

> This would be after a proper remediation and mold source is removed and water

damage taken care of.

>

> Thank you!

>

> Robin

>

> --- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@>

wrote:

> >

> > Robin: You have some good questions. I will answer some of them. Carl's

input is also needed. See my answers in red below.

> >

>

August 17, 2010

I use this to clean my bathrooms and kitchen. I get it half off though a local

cooperative:

http://www.householdtraditions.com/benefect.htm

It is hospital grade and does kill... it is also natural.

Now wondering about using grapefruit seed extract or antifungal shampoo on dog

or in car air system.

My lungs are so sensitive and Ive had thickening develop inside the bronchial

tubes that seeeminlgy healed as per last CT scan but I have taken quite a bit of

healing herbs, antifungals and serrapeptase which is knowne to help remove

fibrin and scar tissue buildup in lungs.

Robin

>

> Thank you Dr Thrasher,

>

> The house we are moving into is new and has no water damage or moisture issues

at least as per inspector. The construction crew that has been working on the

house has been leaving the windows and doors open which must and hopefully is

accounting for the high spore count in to house of about 1300 spores per cu

meter (air).

>

> This is why I am asking about the ourdoor spores being inside.. now how to get

them out properly...

>

> It seems wiping down surfaces and hepa vaccing floors, walls, ceilings would

be best.

>

> Then I am wondering about mold in bathroom tiles.. are we creating mold

fragments that disperse when using an antifungal cleaner.. Im thinking less

likely when using water to wash away, but also wondering what works on this

stuff and best way to deal with it other than making sure bathroom is properly

ventaliated. Also, many natural cleaners like benefect of grapefruit seed

extract products will kill fungus.. at some point does it really matter?

>

> Thank you...

>

> Robin

>

August 17, 2010

Im not sure anymore they die. COnfused on that..

But you are right.. there shouldnt be amplification (not sure I am using that

word right).. growth.. it would be then about continual cleaning.. just dont

want to walk into it and have it mix with my furniture from the get go.

Not sure where the line is.. trying to figure that out. Our indoor spore count

is around 200 here. But I am still sick here and am ont sure where the stachy

landed or if plumes of spores can rise up from furniture, books, clothing.. ugh.

We use austin airs in several rooms.

Robin

> >

> > Thank you Dr Thrasher,

> >

> > The house we are moving into is new and has no water damage or moisture

issues at least as per inspector. The construction crew that has been working on

the house has been leaving the windows and doors open which must and hopefully

is accounting for the high spore count in to house of about 1300 spores per cu

meter (air).

> >

> > This is why I am asking about the ourdoor spores being inside.. now how to

get them out properly...

> >

> > It seems wiping down surfaces and hepa vaccing floors, walls, ceilings would

be best.

> >

> > Then I am wondering about mold in bathroom tiles.. are we creating mold

fragments that disperse when using an antifungal cleaner.. Im thinking less

likely when using water to wash away, but also wondering what works on this

stuff and best way to deal with it other than making sure bathroom is properly

ventaliated. Also, many natural cleaners like benefect of grapefruit seed

extract products will kill fungus.. at some point does it really matter?

> >

> > Thank you...

> >

> > Robin

> >

>

August 17, 2010

Clarification.. wondering how helpful it really is to use the antifungals given

the fragmentation effect when washing off is the ultimate goal.

This is complicated to process in a short time. So many diff messages out there.

Robin

>

> I use this to clean my bathrooms and kitchen. I get it half off though a local

cooperative:

>

> http://www.householdtraditions.com/benefect.htm

>

> It is hospital grade and does kill... it is also natural.

>

> Now wondering about using grapefruit seed extract or antifungal shampoo on dog

or in car air system.

>

> My lungs are so sensitive and Ive had thickening develop inside the bronchial

tubes that seeeminlgy healed as per last CT scan but I have taken quite a bit of

healing herbs, antifungals and serrapeptase which is knowne to help remove

fibrin and scar tissue buildup in lungs.

>

> Robin

>

August 17, 2010

Go with facts, not with opinions. There are some things we know

as facts. One of those is killing mold should not be the goal.

Removing mold should be the goal.

Concrete is porous. Some plastic is porous so if needing a

moisture barrier the permeance rating of the plastic should be 1

or less. Nearly impossible with 6 mil or thinner membranes.

I think we should begin creating a list of facts so we don't have

these endless disagreements and confusions about what we do

know factually.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Clarification.. wondering how helpful it really is to use the antifungals given

the fragmentation effect when washing off is the ultimate goal.

This is complicated to process in a short time. So many diff messages out there.

Robin

>

> I use this to clean my bathrooms and kitchen. I get it half off though a local

cooperative:

>

> http://www.householdtraditions.com/benefect.htm

>

> It is hospital grade and does kill... it is also natural.

>

> Now wondering about using grapefruit seed extract or antifungal shampoo on dog

or in car air system.

>

> My lungs are so sensitive and Ive had thickening develop inside the bronchial

tubes that seeeminlgy healed as per last CT scan but I have taken quite a bit of

healing herbs, antifungals and serrapeptase which is knowne to help remove

fibrin and scar tissue buildup in lungs.

>

> Robin

>

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August 17, 2010

The cleaning will be an on going situation. every time a door or window is

opened the spores will come in. Good house keeping is always recommended.

[] Re: Some Basics (Questions)

Hi Robin, Obviously not Dr Thrasher, but even though spores are in the house,

when you close up house, if you keep house clean and dry, spores should die for

lack of food and water on their own and cleaned up by your usual housekeeping.

That's what I think. Will be anxious to read Dr Thrasher's remarks.

>

> Thank you Dr Thrasher,

>

> The house we are moving into is new and has no water damage or moisture

issues at least as per inspector. The construction crew that has been working on

the house has been leaving the windows and doors open which must and hopefully

is accounting for the high spore count in to house of about 1300 spores per cu

meter (air).

>

> This is why I am asking about the ourdoor spores being inside.. now how to

get them out properly...

>

> It seems wiping down surfaces and hepa vaccing floors, walls, ceilings would

be best.

>

> Then I am wondering about mold in bathroom tiles.. are we creating mold

fragments that disperse when using an antifungal cleaner.. Im thinking less

likely when using water to wash away, but also wondering what works on this

stuff and best way to deal with it other than making sure bathroom is properly

ventaliated. Also, many natural cleaners like benefect of grapefruit seed

extract products will kill fungus.. at some point does it really matter?

>

> Thank you...

>

> Robin

>

August 17, 2010

A list of facts would be most helpful.

Thanks, Carl.

Its difficult to grasp all of this quickly as well. having to re arrange

concepts in the brain and get out of the house soon.. sorry to all for so many

questions and I know I am repeating my questions.Trying to get it to sink in

fast.

Robin

>

> Go with facts, not with opinions. There are some things we know

> as facts. One of those is killing mold should not be the goal.

> Removing mold should be the goal.

>

> Concrete is porous. Some plastic is porous so if needing a

> moisture barrier the permeance rating of the plastic should be 1

> or less. Nearly impossible with 6 mil or thinner membranes.

>

> I think we should begin creating a list of facts so we don't have

> these endless disagreements and confusions about what we do

> know factually.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

August 17, 2010

I think as Carl stated, just soap and water, the main than is to remove.

> >

> > I use this to clean my bathrooms and kitchen. I get it half off though a

local cooperative:

> >

> > http://www.householdtraditions.com/benefect.htm

> >

> > It is hospital grade and does kill... it is also natural.

> >

> > Now wondering about using grapefruit seed extract or antifungal shampoo on

dog or in car air system.

> >

> > My lungs are so sensitive and Ive had thickening develop inside the

bronchial tubes that seeeminlgy healed as per last CT scan but I have taken

quite a bit of healing herbs, antifungals and serrapeptase which is knowne to

help remove fibrin and scar tissue buildup in lungs.

> >

> > Robin

> >

>

August 17, 2010

Robin, when I thought I had crossed contaminated my friends house I freaked and

paid to have an industrial hygienist take some air samples. The spore count was

only 70 but I was still getting sick, the only time I would get any relief is

when I'd go outside and get fresh air that only endorsed that I damaged someone

elses house which made my thinking even more erratic.

>

> Im not sure anymore they die. COnfused on that..

>

> But you are right.. there shouldnt be amplification (not sure I am using that

word right).. growth.. it would be then about continual cleaning.. just dont

want to walk into it and have it mix with my furniture from the get go.

>

> Not sure where the line is.. trying to figure that out. Our indoor spore count

is around 200 here. But I am still sick here and am ont sure where the stachy

landed or if plumes of spores can rise up from furniture, books, clothing.. ugh.

>

> We use austin airs in several rooms.

>

> Robin

>

August 17, 2010

if the moisture sorce for the growth of fungi was stoped and you have no other

moisture problems in the home, or a high level of humidity

in the inside air, I cant see why you would have mold growth.

funiture can give off a smell for awhile if it was contaminated, but it would

likely be from dried fragment/dust particles that might become airborn when

disturbed, and the other voc's and other contaminates may be in the fabric

causeing a smell that well still affect you. how bad it might be ,might depend

mostly on weither the contamination filtered throughout the house or was

confinded to certain areas and these furnitures were in those areas.

it might be that letting things airout outside in the sun may help, but dont

leave them setting out over night because they might absorb moisture out of the

air, probably depends where you live.

>

> Im not sure anymore they die. COnfused on that..

>

> But you are right.. there shouldnt be amplification (not sure I am using that

word right).. growth.. it would be then about continual cleaning.. just dont

want to walk into it and have it mix with my furniture from the get go.

>

> Not sure where the line is.. trying to figure that out. Our indoor spore count

is around 200 here. But I am still sick here and am ont sure where the stachy

landed or if plumes of spores can rise up from furniture, books, clothing.. ugh.

>

> We use austin airs in several rooms.

>

> Robin

>

August 17, 2010

Agree with the list! I suggested that a week or so ago as now it seems as if we

are just going around in circles.

>

> Go with facts, not with opinions. There are some things we know

> as facts. One of those is killing mold should not be the goal.

> Removing mold should be the goal.

>

> Concrete is porous. Some plastic is porous so if needing a

> moisture barrier the permeance rating of the plastic should be 1

> or less. Nearly impossible with 6 mil or thinner membranes.

>

> I think we should begin creating a list of facts so we don't have

> these endless disagreements and confusions about what we do

> know factually.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

August 17, 2010

Mold spores: If they don't get food and water they die. Their 'toxins' stick

around. That might be what is confusing to you.

>

> Im not sure anymore they die. COnfused on that..

>

August 17, 2010

Good idea Carl. Maybe I could start list but I would need to check what goes in

it is fact and not disputed. Maybe it could go out to new members.

>

> Go with facts, not with opinions. There are some things we know

> as facts. One of those is killing mold should not be the goal.

> Removing mold should be the goal.

>

> Concrete is porous. Some plastic is porous so if needing a

> moisture barrier the permeance rating of the plastic should be 1

> or less. Nearly impossible with 6 mil or thinner membranes.

>

> I think we should begin creating a list of facts so we don't have

> these endless disagreements and confusions about what we do

> know factually.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

August 17, 2010

It would be very helpful to send out with new membership. And when people get

off track, the list could be referred to. There is something about having a

document to keep referring back to. Im trying to keep info filed away in a

private blog I use to file tings away in, but cant oreganize it well right now..

info is pinging all over my brain esp when we are trying to get going here.

I want to thank you all for being so patient and helpful. I am very stressed as

we are getting closer to moving out, getting rid of so many things, all the

emotions and decisions.

Thank you so much for all of your help and understanding.

Robin

> >

> > Go with facts, not with opinions. There are some things we know

> > as facts. One of those is killing mold should not be the goal.

> > Removing mold should be the goal.

> >

> > Concrete is porous. Some plastic is porous so if needing a

> > moisture barrier the permeance rating of the plastic should be 1

> > or less. Nearly impossible with 6 mil or thinner membranes.

> >

> > I think we should begin creating a list of facts so we don't have

> > these endless disagreements and confusions about what we do

> > know factually.

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

>

August 17, 2010

I seconded that and do so again!

>

> Agree with the list! I suggested that a week or so ago as now it seems as if

we are just going around in circles.

>

August 17, 2010

Good points.. thank you. Robin

> >

> > Im not sure anymore they die. COnfused on that..

> >

> > But you are right.. there shouldnt be amplification (not sure I am using

that word right).. growth.. it would be then about continual cleaning.. just

dont want to walk into it and have it mix with my furniture from the get go.

> >

> > Not sure where the line is.. trying to figure that out. Our indoor spore

count is around 200 here. But I am still sick here and am ont sure where the

stachy landed or if plumes of spores can rise up from furniture, books,

clothing.. ugh.

> >

> > We use austin airs in several rooms.

> >

> > Robin

> >

>

August 17, 2010

I dont know.. I also heard they can live forever. Maybe certain humindity makes

some stay viable? Possibly some do and some dont?

I also read their toxins stick around for up to 5 years and this was a

guesstimate. SO putting things away can be a good idea.. either the toxins (VOCS

as well and other crud) dies away in time and or sensitivity drops.. ??

A Magic School Bus show on mold would be nice. Or a list.

Robin

> >

> > Im not sure anymore they die. COnfused on that..

> >

>

August 17, 2010

Also, it seems to me that such lists do exist and they are called books.

Meaning that 1) sometimes facts are not facts but to the person espousing them;

as I said in my response to Carl, foundational texts on healthy homes recommend

4-6 mil ply, so his fact is in direct dispute with facts provided by other,

perhaps more well known institutions (HHI). If a list is going to be THE

definitive guide on these facts, to be credible and definitive, it has to

explain why these other " facts " are wrong, which takes a book-length work to do

2) questions beget more questions; if the goal is to eliminate repetitive

discussion, then good luck with that. For instance, you can't address as

complex a topic as to WHY the goal is to remove mold, not kill it, in a list

form. So a list, or FAQ, could say " the goal is to remove mold, not kill it, "

but you're always going to get questions about why because people are curious

and because they read or hear things that might confuse them. And it takes a

much longer work than a list or FAQ to get to the end of the rope, so to speak,

to the point where most people would be satisfied with the answer 3) and anyway,

there's no pop quiz, so I'm not sure anyone's going to read what they get sent.

Dr Thrasher refers people to his web site but the questions continue--some

people are social learners. They learn through dialogue, not by sitting with a

piece of paper (or a file). And too, speaking as a writer an editor (the typos

in this message notwithstanding) I can say that most technical people have a

hard time translating their knowledge into readable, easily digestible prose.

Would a list really solve that?

> >

> > Go with facts, not with opinions. There are some things we know

> > as facts. One of those is killing mold should not be the goal.

> > Removing mold should be the goal.

> >

> > Concrete is porous. Some plastic is porous so if needing a

> > moisture barrier the permeance rating of the plastic should be 1

> > or less. Nearly impossible with 6 mil or thinner membranes.

> >

> > I think we should begin creating a list of facts so we don't have

> > these endless disagreements and confusions about what we do

> > know factually.

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

> >

>

August 18, 2010

Aimiee,

Excellent resource. Bower is the author you are referring to.

He is a hero of mine and I had the honor of meeting him several

years ago, just before his retirement.

He was the original expert for healthy housing (because of his

wife's hyper-reactivity) and his books were not only the only

books, they were also excellent. Most of what he said is true

today because they were facts, standing the test of time. What

has changed is different materials and more finely-tuned

information including some improvements in techniques.

When he retired several years ago he said his books needed

updating but he wasn't able to do so. He sought buyers for his

Healthy House Institute but failed. Then there was an agreement

reached which eventually resulted in the Web site in your link

carrying on the name of his institute.

Thank you for bringing this to all our attention. Their partners are

a virtual Who's Who of expertise from a variety of disciplines and

professions.

I would agree with their statement about crawlspaces " To block

evaporation from the floor, a layer of polyethylene plastic sheeting

(4-6 mil thick) should be placed on the floor of the space. " if it

were slightly modified to read " (4-6 mil thick or greater). "

Actually, I'd prefer it to read " with a permeance rating of 1 or

less). That way if the 4-6 mil plastic was truly a barrier it would be

okay. But because most of it isn't the specification would lead

people to what is appropriate for a barrier, even if it were 2 mil

plastic, rather than just a retarder. There are some 10 mil plastics

which whose permeance rating is above 5, not a barrier to

moisture at all.

It should also say the barrier must be sealed around the

perimeter, penetrations, and seams, not just placed on the soil.

Sealing it is critical to what someone else expressed concern

about - moisture and mold accumulating beneath it.

If the permeance is 1 or less and the perimeter is sealed then

mold and bacteria cannot grow. But even if it could it would not

be possible to get out from underneath it and into the crawlspace

air. Where it would then migrate into the living spaces of the

house.

My source for crawlspaces is Joe Lstiburek of Building Science

Corp. at: http://www.buildingscience.com

Joe is one of the leading building science specialists in the

country. Read his take on crawlspaces at:

http://www.buildingscience.com/doctypes/insights and scroll down

to " BSI-009: New Light In Crawlspaces " . It includes more than

just the proper barrier, like how to address the ventilation issues

in more detail than the HHI Web site.

Balancing the barrier and ventilation with climate is critical

because the remedy for one climate can create problems in

another.

Now, read my next e-mail for the most important point you

brought up. The Subject will be: Who Do You Believe? And Why?

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Carl, I got my FACT about 6 mil poly from various experts who have

been doing this as long or longer than you. Since I'm not going to scan in

pages from my Healthy House book, I'll direct you to the Healthy House

Institute, founded by the man that put out the book I just mentioned,

and which you should know about--it is THE foundational text on safe

houses. Turns out the HHI has a web page on crawl spaces and

recommends the use of 4-6 mil poly, just as my book does:

http://www.healthyhouseinstitute.com/hhip_791-

Crawl_Space_Foundations

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 17, 2010, at 4:28 PM, " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...>

wrote:

Go with facts, not with opinions. There are some things we know

as facts. One of those is killing mold should not be the goal.

Removing mold should be the goal.

Concrete is porous. Some plastic is porous so if needing a

moisture barrier the permeance rating of the plastic should be 1

or less. Nearly impossible with 6 mil or thinner membranes.

I think we should begin creating a list of facts so we don't have

these endless disagreements and confusions about what we do

know factually.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

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August 18, 2010

Barb,

You're usually right but don't continue to focus on what kills mold,

or whether spores die or not.

If no water they don't grow. They may die but most will go

dormant for years, decades, centuries and be revitalized by

moisture. So remove growth and clean frequently to reduce

accumulations of settled spores and fragments. Stop the water

and nothing grows. You also don't need sealants with 20 to 50

year warranties. Because the warranties are void if - are you

ready? - the warranties are void if they get wet again. So even the

shysters know moisture is the key, which is why they void their

own warranty.

FIRST FACT: You don't need to kill mold.

SECOND FACT: You don't need to kill mold.

THIRD FACT: You don't need to kill mold.

FOURTH FACT: It's not just mold. It's the damp filth.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Mold spores: If they don't get food and water they die. Their 'toxins' stick

around. That might be what is confusing to you.

>

> Im not sure anymore they die. COnfused on that..

>

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August 18, 2010

Bower is my hero, too, and if his book weren't in storage and my memory

faulty I'd have said his name. I agree and know, too, that the plastic should

lap up the sides, and I would caulk it to ensure it stays.

I realize that knowledge gets updated and I vaguely recall reading that

something like 1 mil is best.

The issue I had was with your dismissive tone. What I had wasn't an opinion, if

what you had was a fact. Both were facts or none were.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 18, 2010, at 1:04 AM, " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote: