Re: Re-posting a misinterpreted post

[Guest guest]

,

Sorry if I misinterpreted.

As for the safest floor there are two parts for determining was is

safest for you: 1. Safe for the building; and, 2. Safe for you in

terms of outgassing.

There are dozens of options and combinations depending on

what the floor is over and how it connects to the rest of the

house. A traditional contractor will be familiar with your codes and

climate. As for your safety from outgassing, you know how to

personally test so that is the ultimate determination.

Those which usually outgas less are prefinished hardwoods, cork

and bamboo nailed vs glued (hard to do this), sheet flooring like

linoleum or vinyl (I cannot tolerate vinyl at all! but maybe you

can), and ceramic tile in thinset (makes a great barrier between

the subfloor and where you are. Unfinished hardwood can also

be excellent if water based urethane is used instead of oil based

urethane. Bona Kemi Strong is the best I've found because it

outgasses within 1-2 days for most. With your sensitivites plan on

a week. Carpet can be problematic for several reasons but most

problems are from the pad, not the carpet. Avoid the pads with

black chunks if they smell like car tires. Because that's what they

are.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Carl & Dr Thrasher,

Where in my post did you guys get the idea that I am exposed to mold, sick from

mold, planning on covering mold with siding, not looking for or addressing

moisture issues that cause mold, that the tar paper is moldy, or that I'm

ignoring proper mold-preventing building techniques - i.e. my simple question

about whether or not the tar paper between the two layers of subfloor poses a

problem. As of now I am not stumped about how to proceed with the rest but

wondered about the intelligence of re-doing my subfloor/tarpaper sandwich in the

same manner in which it was originally constructed. Now can anyone tell me the

safest way to restructure the floor before I get to that part of the

remediation? Thank you.

My original post followed by the misinterpretaions:

" My bedrooms are well sealed off & smell moldy- especially the Master. It

hasn'trained since the beginning of July & before that a sprinkle in June. It's

bonedry & the bedroom was so bad today that the contractor was dizzy in about 30

seconds. He checked the attic insulation for mold - nothing. The crawl has no

insulation but spots of white mold ? & green on the ceiling, if that's what you

call it- the bottom of the subfloor I guess it is. The outside of the house is

moldy. There is nothing but 1/4 sheets of hardwood (unfinished) on the outside

of the house. Instead of plywood & then siding it just has that wood. The bottom

3 feet of that wood is moldy to the other side. When you pry that off there's no

housewrap - just the insulation which, BTW, has no mold on it. (Not that I would

keep it). The floors are plywood, a layer of tar paper & more plywood. That's

what sits on the joists - & no insulation - thank goodness. Could that tar paper

have caused the mold ? I guess the thing to do is remove all the flooring, the

moldy outside wood, the walls to the studs. Is there any hope ? I just can't go

back to being homelessness with severe MCS. "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

,

The moisture on unfinished wood caused the mold.

The tar paper won't be digested as food by the mold when new.

But after 20-30 years or so it dries out and I've seen mold and

bacteria have a feast on it.

You have more to fix than mold. As Dr Thrasher repeatedly posts

there is a multitude of what I call " filth " and that includes the

chemical components of the " filth. "

Although you are primarily chemically intolerant rather than mold

reactive you ought to take precautions for the chemicals which

the mold, the bacteria, and the water damaged wood is giving off.

Until you remove the water damage from the house (just putting

new siding over damaged wood won't work) or you remove

yourself from the house you will continue to be exposed and will

have a difficult time. The constant exposure will keep the body

reacting and overwhelming any medical/nutritional treatment.

Sorry to be so blunt but facts is facts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

> Carl: I am beginning to believe that we need to be blunt and to the point.

Putting siding over existing water-damaged materials is encapsulating the

problem. I have been involved in situations where this has occurred. Stachy

was actually encapsulated. The occupants continue to adversely respond. They

must remove themselves from the environment and have the situation remediated

correctly. In this particular case, it will most likely involve demolishing the

home.

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[Guest guest]

Carl, I was going to go with caulked plywood & seal it. Cheap :-) & they have

no formadehyde ply here. If the remediation succeeds it will have plenty of time

to offgas because I have to trek to NY to get my stuff. I could still sleep in

the kitchen too. But I think I should replace the subflloor - which is two

layers of wood with tar paper in between. Is that the way it's done over a dirt

crawlspace? Code isn't good enough for my standards :-) it's a minimum

requirement.

>

> ,

>

> Sorry if I misinterpreted.

>

> As for the safest floor there are two parts for determining was is

> safest for you: 1. Safe for the building; and, 2. Safe for you in

> terms of outgassing.

>

> There are dozens of options and combinations depending on

> what the floor is over and how it connects to the rest of the

> house. A traditional contractor will be familiar with your codes and

> climate. As for your safety from outgassing, you know how to

> personally test so that is the ultimate determination.

>

> Those which usually outgas less are prefinished hardwoods, cork

> and bamboo nailed vs glued (hard to do this), sheet flooring like

> linoleum or vinyl (I cannot tolerate vinyl at all! but maybe you

> can), and ceramic tile in thinset (makes a great barrier between

> the subfloor and where you are. Unfinished hardwood can also

> be excellent if water based urethane is used instead of oil based

> urethane. Bona Kemi Strong is the best I've found because it

> outgasses within 1-2 days for most. With your sensitivites plan on

> a week. Carpet can be problematic for several reasons but most

> problems are from the pad, not the carpet. Avoid the pads with

> black chunks if they smell like car tires. Because that's what they

> are.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

>

[Guest guest]

Carl & ,

We have bamboo on the stairs in our new rental, it does smell some,

hopefully will diminish over time, the building biology inspector says

it is pretty stable but an architect friend says it all comes from china

and is soaked in chemicals, we didn't pick it of course, just one of

several existing negatives in the home. The rest of our new place is

colored cement flooring, that probably has chemicals in it too but for

someone w/lots of allergies, mold problems, it's easier to keep clean.

If you want wall to wall carpet there are some really nice and pricey

all natural wool carpets from germany w/no chemical treatments...

sue v

>,

>

>Sorry if I misinterpreted.

>

>As for the safest floor there are two parts for determining was is

>safest for you: 1. Safe for the building; and, 2. Safe for you in

>terms of outgassing.

>

[Guest guest]

Good plan, . No, tar paper between two layers of flooring

isn't common. In fact I've never heard of it. A barrier in the floor

over a dirt crawlspace will help keep the crawlspace air and

moisture from coming upstairs into the house but tar paper is a

source of chemical outgassing and eventually a substrate for

mold growth. If a barrier is desired a more inert material should

be used.

However - double barriers should be avoided. If a moisture and

air barrier is used then the flooring above it should be permeable,

not another barrier where moisture can get trapped inbetween.

I agree that codes are a minimum, and sometimes just plain

wrong! If properly done they can be an enforcement tool.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Carl, I was going to go with caulked plywood & seal it. Cheap :-) & they have no

formadehyde ply here. If the remediation succeeds it will have plenty of time to

offgas because I have to trek to NY to get my stuff. I could still sleep in the

kitchen too. But I think I should replace the subflloor - which is two layers of

wood with tar paper in between. Is that the way it's done over a dirt

crawlspace? Code isn't good enough for my standards :-) it's a minimum

requirement.

>

> ,

>

> Sorry if I misinterpreted.

>

> As for the safest floor there are two parts for determining was is

> safest for you: 1. Safe for the building; and, 2. Safe for you in

> terms of outgassing.

>

> There are dozens of options and combinations depending on

> what the floor is over and how it connects to the rest of the

> house. A traditional contractor will be familiar with your codes and

> climate. As for your safety from outgassing, you know how to

> personally test so that is the ultimate determination.

>

> Those which usually outgas less are prefinished hardwoods, cork

> and bamboo nailed vs glued (hard to do this), sheet flooring like

> linoleum or vinyl (I cannot tolerate vinyl at all! but maybe you

> can), and ceramic tile in thinset (makes a great barrier between

> the subfloor and where you are. Unfinished hardwood can also

> be excellent if water based urethane is used instead of oil based

> urethane. Bona Kemi Strong is the best I've found because it

> outgasses within 1-2 days for most. With your sensitivites plan on

> a week. Carpet can be problematic for several reasons but most

> problems are from the pad, not the carpet. Avoid the pads with

> black chunks if they smell like car tires. Because that's what they

> are.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Wouldn't it be better to concrete over dirt crawlspace????

>

> Carl, I was going to go with caulked plywood & seal it. Cheap :-) & they have

no formadehyde ply here. If the remediation succeeds it will have plenty of time

to offgas because I have to trek to NY to get my stuff. I could still sleep in

the kitchen too. But I think I should replace the subflloor - which is two

layers of wood with tar paper in between. Is that the way it's done over a dirt

crawlspace? Code isn't good enough for my standards :-) it's a minimum

requirement.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Where would one get good carpeting Sue? I wanted hard wood floors but due to

foot injury, hardwood is now hard for me to walk on..barefoot! Of course I can

always wear shoes but I am considering carpeting, esp in bedroom. Thanks

>

>

> If you want wall to wall carpet there are some really nice and pricey

> all natural wool carpets from germany w/no chemical treatments...

>

>

> sue v

>

[Guest guest]

Concrete is porous and eventually would allow the moisture to enter the space

above the concrete. A moisture barrier coupled with appropriate ventilation are

more appropriate. Also, one need to have a moisture barrier protecting the

foundation from water seepage from rain and yard watering.

Jack-Dwayne: Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 916-745-4703

Cell: 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

916-745-4703 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

Carl, So basically I'll have 3 layers of plywood right? I'm thinking the layers

(there must be a word for this) are put down on the opposite grain of the layer

under it right? I have my doubts about that plastic covering the soil. Strikes

me the wrong way. It's dusty dry now (very dry summers) I don't think it would

be that dry with plastic on it - & if it gets a hole ! where talking an

outpouring of living matter like subway doors opening in NYC at rush hour ! What

I'd like to do but am creeped out by bugs - put a 1/2 " layer of borax down

there...or a layer of cement but I have my doubts about how quickly that would

dry out too. See it's so wet here in winter you don't have to have leaks for

things to get wet. The inside of my truck was damp. I put in an Eva Dry. I heard

it was unusually wet last winter (my 1st winter here) so now I know how to

prep[are for the worst.

>

> Good plan, . No, tar paper between two layers of flooring

> isn't common. In fact I've never heard of it. A barrier in the floor

> over a dirt crawlspace will help keep the crawlspace air and

> moisture from coming upstairs into the house but tar paper is a

> source of chemical outgassing and eventually a substrate for

> mold growth. If a barrier is desired a more inert material should

> be used.

>

> However - double barriers should be avoided. If a moisture and

> air barrier is used then the flooring above it should be permeable,

> not another barrier where moisture can get trapped inbetween.

>

> I agree that codes are a minimum, and sometimes just plain

> wrong! If properly done they can be an enforcement tool.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the ideas. In another post I gave my thought on that plastic - it

just don't sit right with me :-)... besides, there's the plastic vapors.

Thought of cement but that holds moisture too.

>

> , you should put plastic over the dirt, not only to trap moisture but

also to eliminate radon. But then don't use tar paper above, since tar paper is

also a vapor barrier and whatever moisture remains in the crawlspace will then

be trapped, creating great conditions for mold. The kind of paper used between

underlayment and hardwoods is rosin paper, not tar paper, and is used in part to

to reduce the squeaking that would otherwise happen with the wood floor moving

against the underlayment (there is still flex in a wood floor even if it is

nailed down).

>

> I'd venture to guess that before plastic was used to cover dirt floors, tar

paper was used to reduce vapor transmission. But plastic is much smarter (use 6

mi poly).

>

> Concrete could be poured, but most crawlspace don't have much room to work in,

so concrete becomes cost prohibitive.

>

> I learned all of this by rebuilding my former house myself (well, everyhting

but the collapsed roof--that whole upstairs had to be rebuilt and that was quite

a saga) and devouring books on ventilation, mold, healthy homes, home building,

etc., as well as talking to experts and posting on web sites.

[Guest guest]

,

Your questions involve some complex detail to get it right and get

it the way you need it. But I'll try. My answers are indented below

preceeded with " * " .

Carl, So basically I'll have 3 layers of plywood right? I'm thinking the

layers (there must be a word for this) are put down on the opposite grain

of the layer under it right?

* Yes and no. The concept is right for solid wood. But plywood

is made up of layers of the opposite grain already so that isn't

necessary for each piece. Why 3 layers? What will that get you

that two won't?

I have my doubts about that plastic covering the soil. Strikes me the

wrong way. It's dusty dry now (very dry summers)

* There's more to crawlspace problems than moisture and

mold. There are soil gasses and radon and dry environment

bacteria. The purpose of a building is to separate the outside

from the inside. An open soil crawlspace is not isolating anything

from the inside. It is, in fact, directly connecting the open soil to

the inside of the house and the air you breath. In your case,

forget about mold!!! There are other reasons including the fine

dust from the dusty dry soil.

I don't think it would be that dry with plastic on it

* You are correct. Normal soil moisture will accumulate under

the plastic. Which is why it must have a permeance rating of less

than 1. And why the perimeter, seams, and penetrations must be

sealed. BTW, would you be concerned if the dirt was covered

with a concrete slab as you suggest? No. But I would. Because

as Dr Thrasher posted earlier concrete is slightly porous and

moisture can and will migrate through it. That won't happen with a

barrier with permeance below 1.

- & if it gets a hole ! where talking an outpouring of living matter like

subway doors opening in NYC at rush hour !

* Another reason to use a barrier thicker than 6 mil. I prefer 10

mil. In some cases 15 mil is needed exactly for the reason you

state. However, a few small holes is not like a leak on the Space

Station or when the villian on the airplane shoots out a window.

The pressure differentials aren't that great and the normal

ventilation of the space can usually handle it.

What I'd like to do but am creeped out by bugs - put a 1/2 " layer of borax

down there...or a layer of cement but I have my doubts about how

quickly that would dry out too.

* A sealed barrier keeps mold, bacteria and bugs from

growing and having babies (no air). And, if the barrier has a

permeance rating less than 1 they can't get through it. Finding a

small hole would be like you falling through the ice over a river

and trying to find the hole again. Maybe a few would, but almost

none will. Inspect occasionally. But your going down there is what

would create holes. They won't open by themselves.

See it's so wet here in winter you don't have to have leaks for things to

get wet. The inside of my truck was damp. I put in an Eva Dry. I heard it

was unusually wet last winter (my 1st winter here) so now I know how to

prep[are for the worst.

* This is caused by condensation, not leaks. Learn about the

relationships between humidity, temperature and dew point. I was

at a house today where the temperature was 88 degrees, the

humidity was 25% and moisture still condensed on the outside of

a glass of ice water. Why? The dewpoint was 47 degrees but the

glass of ice water was about 35 degrees. You don't need high

humidity to get condensation. But if the humidity is high you the

dew point will increase. For example, if the humidity today had

been 80% with the 88 degrees then the dew point would have

been 80 degrees. Any surface at 80 degrees or below would have

condensation. Including inside walls.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

--- In , " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...>

wrote:

>

> Good plan, . No, tar paper between two layers of flooring

> isn't common. In fact I've never heard of it. A barrier in the floor

> over a dirt crawlspace will help keep the crawlspace air and

> moisture from coming upstairs into the house but tar paper is a

> source of chemical outgassing and eventually a substrate for

> mold growth. If a barrier is desired a more inert material should

> be used.

>

> However - double barriers should be avoided. If a moisture and

> air barrier is used then the flooring above it should be permeable,

> not another barrier where moisture can get trapped inbetween.

>

> I agree that codes are a minimum, and sometimes just plain

> wrong! If properly done they can be an enforcement tool.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

>

----------

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[Guest guest]

Carl, I think the only question you had was why 3 layers right? It's my

understanding that a subfloor it designed with an underlayment plus sub floor -

2 layers of plywood. Since my " finished floor covering " , so to speak, will be

plywood :-) (as opposed to carpet, tile, linoleum) that would mean 3 layers of

plywood altogether.

As far as insects go, I wasn't afraid of them getting through the plastic but

afraid of going in the crawl if I decided to go with the unusual idea of a layer

of borax like I did on the floor of my truck. After a time in the truck I got

loopy & nutty from a smell in there - smelled like a wet dog. I figured it was a

bacteria that thorough cleaning did not eliminate. You can imagine what it's

like to realize that everything has to be taken out when you have nowhere to go.

It happened 4 times. The borax handled it from then on. Nothing can grow under

or over it - not even the fuzzy black mold that grew under my water bottles on

the front floor.

There are many things I won't get done before the rain starts so some temporary

solutions, like the borax, have to be implemented.

>

> ,

>

> Your questions involve some complex detail to get it right and get

> it the way you need it. But I'll try. My answers are indented below

> preceeded with " * " .

>

> Carl, So basically I'll have 3 layers of plywood right? I'm thinking the

> layers (there must be a word for this) are put down on the opposite grain

> of the layer under it right?

> * Yes and no. The concept is right for solid wood. But plywood

> is made up of layers of the opposite grain already so that isn't

> necessary for each piece. Why 3 layers? What will that get you

> that two won't?

>

>

> I have my doubts about that plastic covering the soil. Strikes me the

> wrong way. It's dusty dry now (very dry summers)

> * There's more to crawlspace problems than moisture and

> mold. There are soil gasses and radon and dry environment

> bacteria. The purpose of a building is to separate the outside

> from the inside. An open soil crawlspace is not isolating anything

> from the inside. It is, in fact, directly connecting the open soil to

> the inside of the house and the air you breath. In your case,

> forget about mold!!! There are other reasons including the fine

> dust from the dusty dry soil.

>

>

> I don't think it would be that dry with plastic on it

> * You are correct. Normal soil moisture will accumulate under

> the plastic. Which is why it must have a permeance rating of less

> than 1. And why the perimeter, seams, and penetrations must be

> sealed. BTW, would you be concerned if the dirt was covered

> with a concrete slab as you suggest? No. But I would. Because

> as Dr Thrasher posted earlier concrete is slightly porous and

> moisture can and will migrate through it. That won't happen with a

> barrier with permeance below 1.

>

>

> - & if it gets a hole ! where talking an outpouring of living matter like

> subway doors opening in NYC at rush hour !

> * Another reason to use a barrier thicker than 6 mil. I prefer 10

> mil. In some cases 15 mil is needed exactly for the reason you

> state. However, a few small holes is not like a leak on the Space

> Station or when the villian on the airplane shoots out a window.

> The pressure differentials aren't that great and the normal

> ventilation of the space can usually handle it.

>

>

> What I'd like to do but am creeped out by bugs - put a 1/2 " layer of borax

> down there...or a layer of cement but I have my doubts about how

> quickly that would dry out too.

> * A sealed barrier keeps mold, bacteria and bugs from

> growing and having babies (no air). And, if the barrier has a

> permeance rating less than 1 they can't get through it. Finding a

> small hole would be like you falling through the ice over a river

> and trying to find the hole again. Maybe a few would, but almost

> none will. Inspect occasionally. But your going down there is what

> would create holes. They won't open by themselves.

>

>

> See it's so wet here in winter you don't have to have leaks for things to

> get wet. The inside of my truck was damp. I put in an Eva Dry. I heard it

> was unusually wet last winter (my 1st winter here) so now I know how to

> prep[are for the worst.

> * This is caused by condensation, not leaks. Learn about the

> relationships between humidity, temperature and dew point. I was

> at a house today where the temperature was 88 degrees, the

> humidity was 25% and moisture still condensed on the outside of

> a glass of ice water. Why? The dewpoint was 47 degrees but the

> glass of ice water was about 35 degrees. You don't need high

> humidity to get condensation. But if the humidity is high you the

> dew point will increase. For example, if the humidity today had

> been 80% with the 88 degrees then the dew point would have

> been 80 degrees. Any surface at 80 degrees or below would have

> condensation. Including inside walls.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

[Guest guest]

, I know you didn't address this to me, but I thought I'd put in my 2

cents. The underlayment is usually used to give a smooth substrate to a finish

floor--a subfloor will have imperfections that will telegraph through a floor

like marmoleum. So that's the only reason for a subfloor, underlayment, and

finish floor.

If you would use the underlayment as a finish floor, at least for the time

being, you could have just the two layers, the subfloor and underlayment. One

layer, the " finish " (underlayment) layer would have grade A finish (not knots,

no holes) on the side that you would use for a finished floor.

Even exterior and marine grade plywood has a formaldehyde glue, just less than

the usual interior plywoods. You may have to outgas the boards for a time.

Otherwise, I've been reading about new formaldehyde-free plywoods that came out

since I needed to use plywood. Here is a link:

http://www.columbiaforestproducts.com/PureBond.aspx -- might make sense to use

for at the least the underlayment.

________________________________

From: safersmilesdentallab <safersmilesdentallab@...>

Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 10:25:31 AM

Subject: [] Re: Re-posting a misinterpreted post

Carl, I think the only question you had was why 3 layers right? It's my

understanding that a subfloor it designed with an underlayment plus sub floor -

2 layers of plywood. Since my " finished floor covering " , so to speak, will be

plywood :-) (as opposed to carpet, tile, linoleum) that would mean 3 layers of

plywood altogether.

As far as insects go, I wasn't afraid of them getting through the plastic but

afraid of going in the crawl if I decided to go with the unusual idea of a layer

of borax like I did on the floor of my truck. After a time in the truck I got

loopy & nutty from a smell in there - smelled like a wet dog. I figured it was a

bacteria that thorough cleaning did not eliminate. You can imagine what it's

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your detailed response. They carry formaldehyde- free here. Yay ! A

cheap floor ! I put it in the kitchen after taking everything out. I do react

but tolerably. The room(s) it will go in now won't be used for another year.

>

> , I know you didn't address this to me, but I thought I'd put in my 2

> cents. The underlayment is usually used to give a smooth substrate to a finish

> floor--a subfloor will have imperfections that will telegraph through a floor

> like marmoleum. So that's the only reason for a subfloor, underlayment, and

> finish floor.

>

> If you would use the underlayment as a finish floor, at least for the time

> being, you could have just the two layers, the subfloor and underlayment. One

> layer, the " finish " (underlayment) layer would have grade A finish (not knots,

> no holes) on the side that you would use for a finished floor.

>

> Even exterior and marine grade plywood has a formaldehyde glue, just less than

> the usual interior plywoods. You may have to outgas the boards for a time.

> Otherwise, I've been reading about new formaldehyde-free plywoods that came

out

> since I needed to use plywood. Here is a link:

> http://www.columbiaforestproducts.com/PureBond.aspx -- might make sense to use

> for at the least the underlayment.

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> From: safersmilesdentallab <safersmilesdentallab@...>

>

> Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 10:25:31 AM

> Subject: [] Re: Re-posting a misinterpreted post

>

>

> Carl, I think the only question you had was why 3 layers right? It's my

> understanding that a subfloor it designed with an underlayment plus sub floor

-

> 2 layers of plywood. Since my " finished floor covering " , so to speak, will be

> plywood :-) (as opposed to carpet, tile, linoleum) that would mean 3 layers of

> plywood altogether.

> As far as insects go, I wasn't afraid of them getting through the plastic but

> afraid of going in the crawl if I decided to go with the unusual idea of a

layer

> of borax like I did on the floor of my truck. After a time in the truck I got

> loopy & nutty from a smell in there - smelled like a wet dog. I figured it was

a

> bacteria that thorough cleaning did not eliminate. You can imagine what it's

>