Re: Who Do You Believe? And Why?

[Guest guest]

What I like about this forum is that people share their experiences. Keeping in

mind that there are incontrovertible facts when it comes to mold, for example, I

like to hear what has worked, and what hasn't. And I like to know even the crazy

ideas (like the vodka just mentioned in someone's post) because you never know

what will work for you. And in the case of a difference of opinion I always go

with the most extreme solution. Better safe than sorry!

>

> Group,

>

> Aimee raised an important point for us all. I said something and

> she disagreed. She said what she believed, why she believed it

> and even took a shot at my credibility compared to that of her

> trusted experts.

>

> Who Do You Believe? And Why?

>

>

> Bear with me for the outline of the details because they help

> illustrate the issue and how you might answer the challange.

>

> I said we should begin collecting " facts " because we should be

> including what we know in the formation of our opinions. It's a

> waste of time to keep debating the same issues when the facts

> are settled. Someone else supported that by saying we've begun

> going in circles lately.

>

> Aimee promptly challanged me on a specific fact, citing the

> source for her information. And it was quite a good source!

>

> I said most 6 mil poly sheeting didn't have sufficiently low

> permeance to be a barrier. Aimee countered that her source of

> experts specified 4-6 mil poly, and those experts have been

> around as long or longer than me.

>

> Her source was the Healthy Home Institute Web site at:

> http://www.healthyhouseinstitute.com/hhip_791-

> Crawl_Space_Foundation

>

> My source was identified at the time as my opinion. Assuming, I

> guess, that I had enough credibility that the group would just trust

> me.

>

> Aimee had information that was different and she pointed it out to

> me in front of the whole group. Yea! Aimee!!!

>

>

> So, Who Do You Believe? And Why?

>

> - Do you believe Aimee because of her source?

> - Or, do you believe Aimee because her experts have been

> around as long or longer than I have. Implying they probably

> know more than I do.

> - Or, do you believe Aimee because you are her friend?

> - Or, do you believe Aimee because you are tired of seeing my

> posts and glad to see somebody prove me wrong?

> - Or, do you believe I'm right and Aimee is wrong because you

> don't dare dispute what I say?

>

>

> Who Do You Believe? And Why?

>

> Others on this group have offered their opinion about

> crawlspaces and barriers. Sometimes personal experience is

> more credible than the " experts. " Especially when it comes to the

> realness of WDB exposure, a remediator claiming he did a good

> job even though you are still sick. Or a mold inspector taking

> mold tests and declaring the house clear when you know it's not.

>

> - Sometimes personal experience is true only for that person.

> - Sometimes personal experience, while true, wrongly identifies

> the cause and the cure.

> - Sometimes personal experience is exactly right!

>

>

> Who Do You Believe? And Why?

>

> And why should we believe you?

>

> There's more to this issue but let's start here. You're all smart

> and very experienced with lots to offer. Proof of that is the HUGE

> number of e-mails on this group lately. I'm just reorganizing how

> we talk about it in a civilized, sharing, non-flame way for all to

> learn more.

>

> Use specific examples of recent conversations.

>

> And thank you Aimee for challanging me! Your timing was

> perfect.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I like to hear personal experiences. What comes to mind is a person who had

her roof redone & was convinced to put in vents since there were none. She had

no problems with her attic before, but does now.

>

> What I like about this forum is that people share their experiences. Keeping

in mind that there are incontrovertible facts when it comes to mold, for

example, I like to hear what has worked, and what hasn't. And I like to know

even the crazy ideas (like the vodka just mentioned in someone's post) because

you never know what will work for you. And in the case of a difference of

opinion I always go with the most extreme solution. Better safe than sorry!

>

[Guest guest]

Hmmm. I don't know that I took a shot at your credibility so much as pointed out

that others who were as credible if not more were my source. That's not the

equivalent of taking a shot at you.

I responded because I thought it dismissive to claim that you had a fact and I

had an opinion, just because you are an expert, though your expertise seemed to

be derived from looking, learning, reading, and experiencing, which is exactly

how I have earned considerable knowledge about healthy home building (just

because I find myself in a bad situation now does not mean I have no knowledge;

I rebuilt most of my home myself down to studs and back up, learning the

intricacies of ventilation, vapor barriers, formaldehyde-free materials, etc.;

I'm only exiled from that home now because I had to sell it after the whole

weird roof system collapsed--a structural nightmare and a long story--and I had

to sink thousands more into it to fix it--more knowledge earned, more pain).

I think what you're missing here is that the whole tone of my response would

have different if my original idea for --6 mil poly--wasn't met by you with

this whole " let's talk facts, not opinion " puffery, which dismisses and

invalidates my contribution. I don't think rehashing it in this way helps.

Why does it have to be me vs. you?

Is it important that the group assumes that everything you say is right?

Unless this is some kind of cult, people with brains SHOULD seek out different

sources of information.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 18, 2010, at 1:24 AM, " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

Group,

Aimee raised an important point for us all. I said something and

she disagreed. She said what she believed, why she believed it

and even took a shot at my credibility compared to that of her

trusted experts.

Who Do You Believe? And Why?

Bear with me for the outline of the details because they help

illustrate the issue and how you might answer the challange.

I said we should begin collecting " facts " because we should be

including what we know in the formation of our opinions. It's a

[Guest guest]

I think better safe than sorry is coming into play here for me for sure. I am

very sick, have the " dreaded " shoemaker HLA type and am terrified of getting

sicker. I am terrified of all the financial loss we are taking and might take

again if we have to start all over with what we are replacing (and we are trying

to minimally replace). I feel guilty for all I am putting my family through and

want to make sure I am doing this right.. either way.. ont go too extreme and

not not do enough. I am also terrified because my children have on of the

" dreaded genes " as well and they have chronic candida and other biotoxin illness

(like) symptoms.

I am also getting conflicting info from extreme responders and this is very

confusing because I dont know if I am an extreme responder or my children have

been set up to be.

I dont trust any one person any more as much as I would like to...and the facts

are so flexible it seems.

I wish all info had science to back it up but I am not seeing that. I see common

sense and sometimes it helps to see that and takes time to flesh that out.

Info is everywhere stated as fact.. and not just about mold, so one gets jaded

about any info and sucked into the most scary because at least for me, there is

this need to protect myself and my children.

(isnt the gov still saying bleach kills mold and recommends a water, bleach

wash.. some sites are saying that)

A fact sheet would be helpful and then if we could address exceptions and when

and how they come into play.

I dont want to go nuts here (and realize I am a circling person at the moment,

but I am also in a vulnerable state (emtionally and to whatever info comes my

way) in the middle of moving out, gathering info as fast as I can (and not much

time to process) and wanting so much to do this the best I can.. also being very

sick.

And some things still are not completely adding up which goes back to sorting

out facts vs opinion and common sense taking time to manifest itself.

Robin

>

> What I like about this forum is that people share their experiences. Keeping

in mind that there are incontrovertible facts when it comes to mold, for

example, I like to hear what has worked, and what hasn't. And I like to know

even the crazy ideas (like the vodka just mentioned in someone's post) because

you never know what will work for you. And in the case of a difference of

opinion I always go with the most extreme solution. Better safe than sorry!

>

[Guest guest]

Advocate, believe me, people here speak their opinions.

>

> Group,

>

> Aimee raised an important point for us all. I said something and

> she disagreed. She said what she believed, why she believed it

> and even took a shot at my credibility compared to that of her

> trusted experts.

>

> Who Do You Believe? And Why?

>

> Bear with me for the outline of the details because they help

> illustrate the issue and how you might answer the challange.

>

> I said we should begin collecting " facts " because we should be

> including what we know in the formation of our opinions. It's a

>

[Guest guest]

Robin, thats exactly why I did not and well not go to the extreme responders

group. you need be remain calm, I know thats hard. I'm wondering, do you get

these posts sent to your e-mail box?

you can just come to the SBS group site and there you can make it where you can

view the posts and some of the reply and consentrate only on what you need, have

to know for now.

so you know, some of those extreme responders use to be in this group, some

still are.

really, I am a extreme responder, I had alot of damage happen to me by my two

exposures, I dont deal with stress well, thats why I choise to stay right here

when the extreme responders formed that group.

I have had conflicts with some of them in the past, I DONT LIKE THE WORD

EXTREME, and I dont like people that insist on trying to scare the crap out of

people when they are allready going through enough.

I haven't been to this group but I've been around long enough to know I wouldn't

like it and what it represents.

just the issue of cross contamination being brought up here now causes me

stressful felling and it's because of the pass missconseptions on it, and I

dought that has changed much in the extreme reactors group, the name alone

should be a big hint for you.

like I said, mountains out of molehills.

just my own opinion, and frankly I dont care if people like it or not.

I'm a realest, I like to keep it real. I like to keep it calm,

my health depends on it. I'm also bullhead and not as stupied as my

lack of spelling correctly or lack of use of big words,might lead one to

believe.

some people think they have all the answers and know everything, I have to worn

you that sometimes they are the ones that get so stuck in their own beliefs that

they cant learn anything new.

be careful of those types.

>

> I think better safe than sorry is coming into play here for me for sure. I am

very sick, have the " dreaded " shoemaker HLA type and am terrified of getting

sicker. I am terrified of all the financial loss we are taking and might take

again if we have to start all over with what we are replacing (and we are trying

to minimally replace). I feel guilty for all I am putting my family through and

want to make sure I am doing this right.. either way.. ont go too extreme and

not not do enough. I am also terrified because my children have on of the

" dreaded genes " as well and they have chronic candida and other biotoxin illness

(like) symptoms.

>

> I am also getting conflicting info from extreme responders and this is very

confusing because I dont know if I am an extreme responder or my children have

been set up to be.

>

> I dont trust any one person any more as much as I would like to...and the

facts are so flexible it seems.

>

> I wish all info had science to back it up but I am not seeing that. I see

common sense and sometimes it helps to see that and takes time to flesh that

out.

>

> Info is everywhere stated as fact.. and not just about mold, so one gets jaded

about any info and sucked into the most scary because at least for me, there is

this need to protect myself and my children.

>

> (isnt the gov still saying bleach kills mold and recommends a water, bleach

wash.. some sites are saying that)

>

> A fact sheet would be helpful and then if we could address exceptions and when

and how they come into play.

>

> I dont want to go nuts here (and realize I am a circling person at the moment,

but I am also in a vulnerable state (emtionally and to whatever info comes my

way) in the middle of moving out, gathering info as fast as I can (and not much

time to process) and wanting so much to do this the best I can.. also being very

sick.

>

> And some things still are not completely adding up which goes back to sorting

out facts vs opinion and common sense taking time to manifest itself.

>

>

> Robin

[Guest guest]

Treat the person not the tests. I'm not convinced about the " dreaded genotype "

except it's a very nice marketing term that scares patients.

>

> I think better safe than sorry is coming into play here for me for sure. I am

very sick, have the " dreaded " shoemaker HLA type and am terrified of getting

sicker. I am terrified of all the financial loss we are taking and might take

again if we have to start all over with what we are replacing (and we are trying

to minimally replace). I feel guilty for all I am putting my family through and

want to make sure I am doing this right.. either way.. ont go too extreme and

not not do enough. I am also terrified because my children have on of the

" dreaded genes " as well and they have chronic candida and other biotoxin illness

(like) symptoms.

>

> I am also getting conflicting info from extreme responders and this is very

confusing because I dont know if I am an extreme responder or my children have

been set up to be.

>

> I dont trust any one person any more as much as I would like to...and the

facts are so flexible it seems.

>

> I wish all info had science to back it up but I am not seeing that. I see

common sense and sometimes it helps to see that and takes time to flesh that

out.

>

> Info is everywhere stated as fact.. and not just about mold, so one gets jaded

about any info and sucked into the most scary because at least for me, there is

this need to protect myself and my children.

>

> (isnt the gov still saying bleach kills mold and recommends a water, bleach

wash.. some sites are saying that)

>

> A fact sheet would be helpful and then if we could address exceptions and when

and how they come into play.

>

> I dont want to go nuts here (and realize I am a circling person at the moment,

but I am also in a vulnerable state (emtionally and to whatever info comes my

way) in the middle of moving out, gathering info as fast as I can (and not much

time to process) and wanting so much to do this the best I can.. also being very

sick.

>

> And some things still are not completely adding up which goes back to sorting

out facts vs opinion and common sense taking time to manifest itself.

>

>

> Robin

>

[Guest guest]

Im not sure about it either and honestly feel like I have walked into the middle

of two warring camps. I am just trying to make sense of all the info and figure

out what and how to treat " the person " who is me and who is very sick and about

up to my eyeballs in all this.

The terminology is close to criminal thats for sure because there is not enough

known and shoemaker should call back this term. This is based on his limited

experience using CSM only and only his way.

Who is getting better on this list?

How to determine how to treat the person when there are so many povs, " facts "

and variables? Its all an expensive, life altering experiment.

The cure is in fact unknown because there is not absolute.

Robin

--- In , " cocopollyphenol " <cocopollyphenol@...>

wrote:

>

> Treat the person not the tests. I'm not convinced about the " dreaded genotype "

except it's a very nice marketing term that scares patients.

>

>

[Guest guest]

All the genotype means is increased risk. Individuals with certain HLA genes

are at a higher risk of developing chronic. This is not only true with mold

exposure, but also for asthma, sacroidosis, various autoimmune disease, etc.

Also certain genetic polymorphism of phase II detox pathway imparts increased

risk. For example, if you have GSTM1 null you are at increased risk for liver

cancer when exposed to aflatoxin B1.

[] Re: Who Do You Believe? And Why?

Treat the person not the tests. I'm not convinced about the " dreaded genotype "

except it's a very nice marketing term that scares patients.

>

> I think better safe than sorry is coming into play here for me for sure. I

am very sick, have the " dreaded " shoemaker HLA type and am terrified of getting

sicker. I am terrified of all the financial loss we are taking and might take

again if we have to start all over with what we are replacing (and we are trying

to minimally replace). I feel guilty for all I am putting my family through and

want to make sure I am doing this right.. either way.. ont go too extreme and

not not do enough. I am also terrified because my children have on of the

" dreaded genes " as well and they have chronic candida and other biotoxin illness

(like) symptoms.

>

> I am also getting conflicting info from extreme responders and this is very

confusing because I dont know if I am an extreme responder or my children have

been set up to be.

>

> I dont trust any one person any more as much as I would like to...and the

facts are so flexible it seems.

>

> I wish all info had science to back it up but I am not seeing that. I see

common sense and sometimes it helps to see that and takes time to flesh that

out.

>

> Info is everywhere stated as fact.. and not just about mold, so one gets

jaded about any info and sucked into the most scary because at least for me,

there is this need to protect myself and my children.

>

> (isnt the gov still saying bleach kills mold and recommends a water, bleach

wash.. some sites are saying that)

>

> A fact sheet would be helpful and then if we could address exceptions and

when and how they come into play.

>

> I dont want to go nuts here (and realize I am a circling person at the

moment, but I am also in a vulnerable state (emtionally and to whatever info

comes my way) in the middle of moving out, gathering info as fast as I can (and

not much time to process) and wanting so much to do this the best I can.. also

being very sick.

>

> And some things still are not completely adding up which goes back to

sorting out facts vs opinion and common sense taking time to manifest itself.

>

>

> Robin

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you and I am up to my eyeballs with genetic mutations as well, Methylation

as per yasko, including the null glut gene, some CYP450s as per a Genova Detox

panel and quite a few other fun defects.

I wonder how many good genes are out there we are not identifying.

And Im about up to my eyeballs in the genetics as well. Esp with terms like

" dreaded gene. "

Shoemaker doesnt word this so kindly though. His book relfects a very negative

perspective for the " dreaded " HLA types.

I hope you all find a balance with the discussion.. people will need to ask

questions and sort " facts " out and as someone posted, some peolpe are verbal,

social learners and just dont get it until they hash it out as annoying as that

is for others...and some might have experiences that defy the rules and " facts "

or facts as with extreme responders.

Robin

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> All the genotype means is increased risk. Individuals with certain HLA genes

are at a higher risk of developing chronic. This is not only true with mold

exposure, but also for asthma, sacroidosis, various autoimmune disease, etc.

Also certain genetic polymorphism of phase II detox pathway imparts increased

risk. For example, if you have GSTM1 null you are at increased risk for liver

cancer when exposed to aflatoxin B1.

>

> [] Re: Who Do You Believe? And Why?

>

>

>

> Treat the person not the tests. I'm not convinced about the " dreaded

genotype " except it's a very nice marketing term that scares patients.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thats why I continually tell posters that the mold warriors book is outdated,

Shoemaker has said he needs to write a new book as well,

that is why I dont like to read posts where people are telling newcomers to read

mold warriors like it's all knowing, because it's not.

this was wrote at a time when there wasn't alot of answers out there.

you basicly are settting your knowledge back to the time that was wrote if you

read it. alot has happened sence than, alot.

>

> Thank you and I am up to my eyeballs with genetic mutations as well,

Methylation as per yasko, including the null glut gene, some CYP450s as per a

Genova Detox panel and quite a few other fun defects.

>

> I wonder how many good genes are out there we are not identifying.

>

> And Im about up to my eyeballs in the genetics as well. Esp with terms like

" dreaded gene. "

>

> Shoemaker doesnt word this so kindly though. His book relfects a very negative

perspective for the " dreaded " HLA types.

>

> I hope you all find a balance with the discussion.. people will need to ask

questions and sort " facts " out and as someone posted, some peolpe are verbal,

social learners and just dont get it until they hash it out as annoying as that

is for others...and some might have experiences that defy the rules and " facts "

or facts as with extreme responders.

>

> Robin

>

[Guest guest]

I understand where you are coming from. There are people with recessive genes

that never get ill. The only thing one can do is get a diagnosis. All that we

can say is the risk is higher with certain genes. Once one has the knowledge of

their genetic defects, then they can take steps to reduce exposures. This is

all I can offer you.

[] Re: Who Do You Believe? And Why?

Thank you and I am up to my eyeballs with genetic mutations as well,

Methylation as per yasko, including the null glut gene, some CYP450s as per a

Genova Detox panel and quite a few other fun defects.

I wonder how many good genes are out there we are not identifying.

And Im about up to my eyeballs in the genetics as well. Esp with terms like

" dreaded gene. "

Shoemaker doesnt word this so kindly though. His book relfects a very negative

perspective for the " dreaded " HLA types.

I hope you all find a balance with the discussion.. people will need to ask

questions and sort " facts " out and as someone posted, some peolpe are verbal,

social learners and just dont get it until they hash it out as annoying as that

is for others...and some might have experiences that defy the rules and " facts "

or facts as with extreme responders.

Robin

[Guest guest]

Robin: I agree with you. There is no need to bring a war into the arena of

those who are ill. You can contact me personally. I have decided to leave this

forum.

[] Re: Who Do You Believe? And Why?

Im not sure about it either and honestly feel like I have walked into the

middle of two warring camps. I am just trying to make sense of all the info and

figure out what and how to treat " the person " who is me and who is very sick and

about up to my eyeballs in all this.

The terminology is close to criminal thats for sure because there is not

enough known and shoemaker should call back this term. This is based on his

limited experience using CSM only and only his way.

Who is getting better on this list?

How to determine how to treat the person when there are so many povs, " facts "

and variables? Its all an expensive, life altering experiment.

The cure is in fact unknown because there is not absolute.

Robin

--- In , " cocopollyphenol " <cocopollyphenol@...>

wrote:

>

> Treat the person not the tests. I'm not convinced about the " dreaded

genotype " except it's a very nice marketing term that scares patients.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I didn't mean to upset you but you are right that I overdid the

comparisons between you and me.

I was trying to make the point that most of us really have no idea

how we decide what and who to believe. So we usually go with

our " gut " (even if it isn't healthy), or friends, or authorities, or

whatever we find most convincing.

So I wanted to start a conversation about how members of this

group make their decisions on what to believe and why.

As for the 4-6 mil vs greater than 6 mil plastic barrier, that is a

distraction from the basic issue. The basic issue is our houses

will be healthier for us if we do not have open dirt crawlspaces.

Moisture barriers (not retarders) should be installed over the open

dirt to fix this problem.

It's not often anyone could have a valid or rational argument

against barriers. But when they do offer an argument it can

generally be dealt with by explaining the physical laws of nature

including how mold, moisture, temperature, materials, etc

function and inter-relate. That is one type of fact.

HOW we create that barrier is not factual and is open to

discussion. A number of variables, especially climate, can

influence a decision about specific barriers which ideal vs

practical and affordable.

Another example, killing mold. It is a FACT that live mold spores

can infect, but rarely do. It is a FACT that live and dead spores,

spore fragments, and hyphal fragments all contain the

components to which susceptible people will react. Therefore, it

is a FACT that killing mold won't stop any of that and can often

make exposure worse.

It is a FACT that we can use fungicides, bleach, hydrogen

peroxide or voodo to clean the mold, whether they kill mold or

not. And it is also a FACT that unnecessary actions cost

unnecessary money, which many of us can ill afford to waste.

Again, I truly appreciate your comments, challenges, and

corrections. It is bringing out some necessary detail.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Hmmm. I don't know that I took a shot at your credibility so much as

pointed out that others who were as credible if not more were my source.

That's not the equivalent of taking a shot at you.

I responded because I thought it dismissive to claim that you had a fact

and I had an opinion, just because you are an expert, though your

expertise seemed to be derived from looking, learning, reading, and

experiencing, which is exactly how I have earned considerable

knowledge about healthy home building (just because I find myself in a

bad situation now does not mean I have no knowledge; I rebuilt most of

my home myself down to studs and back up, learning the intricacies of

ventilation, vapor barriers, formaldehyde-free materials, etc.; I'm only

exiled from that home now because I had to sell it after the whole weird

roof system collapsed--a structural nightmare and a long story--and I

had to sink thousands more into it to fix it--more knowledge earned,

more pain).

I think what you're missing here is that the whole tone of my response

would have different if my original idea for --6 mil poly--wasn't

met by you with this whole " let's talk facts, not opinion " puffery, which

dismisses and invalidates my contribution. I don't think rehashing it in

this way helps.

Why does it have to be me vs. you?

Is it important that the group assumes that everything you say is right?

Unless this is some kind of cult, people with brains SHOULD seek out

different sources of information.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 18, 2010, at 1:24 AM, " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...>

wrote:

Group,

Aimee raised an important point for us all. I said something and

she disagreed. She said what she believed, why she believed it

and even took a shot at my credibility compared to that of her

trusted experts.

Who Do You Believe? And Why?

Bear with me for the outline of the details because they help

illustrate the issue and how you might answer the challange.

I said we should begin collecting " facts " because we should be

including what we know in the formation of our opinions. It's a

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[Guest guest]

HI All,

Guess I haven't been following all the posts, just too many, so I am not

understanding what the two camps are or the " war " ...but I am sad to hear

that you are leaving this forum Dr. Thrasher, is how I

found you and you were so helpful in leading us to answers about the

mold and bacterial problems in our house, providing the data needed to

get my husband to finally leave the house, and now even the salmonella

you found in our hvac system has been detected in my sick son's stool

culture, and the tox work you did connected the dots from molds/mycos in

the house to what was detected by realtime labs in our bodies...

regarding the dreaded genotype and other susceptible genotypes i can

tell you that dr. rea doesn't pay any attention to these, our bay area

doctors see them as something that requires a trigger to actually make

it problematic, and the first doc who did this genetic typing on my son

(who has the dreaded genotype) used the results to lead us away from

mold being the problem, his view is that the multisusceptible gene isn'

t particularly mold susceptible like the mold susceptible gene, this is

just dead wrong and led us off the track for over a year, maybe two (dr.

marinkovich had earlier identified my son as having severe mold

allergies and likely fungal colonization, but he had us do mold plates

on a sunny spring day, came out clean, and these also gave us a false

sense of assurance that all was well with the house...besides dr.

marinkovich never explained that there is a mold toxicity problem, just

allergies, so we didn't understand how mold allergies could be bothering

his gut since we think of allergies as " hay fever: kind of symptoms, or

we did then...)

sue v.

>Robin: I agree with you. There is no need to bring a war into the

>arena of those who are ill. You can contact me personally. I have

>decided to leave this forum.

>

[Guest guest]

Sounds to me like it wouldn't have been brought here if you would have just been

truthful and answered some questions put to you before.

Sharon deserves answers. thats just pretty shitty if you ask me.

and by leaveing this group now, your basicly conferming that I hit the nail

right on the head, it's all about the money.

glad you care so much about the suffering people here.

dont even use a new member and a BS excuse to leave this forum, be a fricken man

for gods sake.

why dont you just admit that you were only here to get clients and make money

anyway and you really dont give a rats ass about anyone here.

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> Robin: I agree with you. There is no need to bring a war into the arena of

those who are ill. You can contact me personally. I have decided to leave this

forum.

>

[Guest guest]

and if you planning to reply to me in a threatning mannor,you better first think

back to what your great web site was like before you joined this group, and

remember that all that information that you got from from darlene on the

olfactory system and other things came from me.

now I sat back and watched you repost some of these things and never once gave

me the any credit. like I was so far below you and your new found greatness and

expertize that you couldn't even do that.

now obviously you have time on your hands, I think you need to let some of the

swelling go down, and get real.

sorry, but you dont use people than turn around and treat them like shit,didn't

your moma ever tell you that?

we are not here for you to make money off of.

you either give a shit about the cause, and that includes the very underlieing

reason why we dont get proper medical help, why this has been ignored so long,

why we cant get proper testing and remediation done and why we cant find lawyers

to take our cases ,why our insurance companies screw us over and nothing is

being done about it, and why judges, on most of the few cases that even get to

court, sail us down the river.

this isn't just about you and you makeing money.

how dare you set in this group and act like you give a shit just so you can

stroke your ego,and get clients, go have a frothy one with ERIC the allmighty,

you two deserve each other.

[Guest guest]

Robin, what you need to understand is that theres alot more to this issue than

illness and dealing with a contaminated house.

these issues have always been part of the discusion here and theres no reason

they shouldn't be now, but something has now happened conserning what I thought

was going to be a great organization that was going to cover all the issues

involved , it now has went on a different path and obviously once again money

has become more important than helping the victoms of WDB exposures.

there are reasons why we can not get proper medical help from just any doctor we

go to, there are reasons why we have such a hard time finding reliable home

testers and remediators,

theres a reason why we never get a dime from our insurance companies,

theres a reason why so many cant find a lawyer to take their case if they have

one and sometimes even if they do they might as well of not wasted their time

and money cause they are still going to get screwed.

now I am sorry that this all it's the board when you just happen to be here but

thats just the way it goes, and Dr.Thrasher knows this,

as well as anyone else thats been here awhile, you dont have to read those posts

and sence you dont know whats going on and really you dont need to worry about

it right now, that might be the best thing to do.

as far as your own situation, like I've stated several times before if a person

is sick from this, they really dont need to be messing with tring to clean

things or much of anything else for awhile until they fell better and maybe you

just need to take the kids and go and let your husband deal with cleaning,

storage,ect. you need to be putting your attn. to one thing, getting in a clean,

non toxic invironment for a while. your husband could store things and hire a

cleaning company to clean the home couldn't he?

he should be dealing with all this if he's not sick.

just my opinion, if you aren't up to it dont do it.

buy some cheap cotton cloths for you and the kids, wash them and put them in a

clean bag and go. truely, the only way you are probably going to know if you

well be able to tolerate that house again is to leave it and give your body a

chance to calm down and than believe me, you'll know when you go back if you

well be able to stay there or not. now these is nothing new, some doctors

actuall have based weither their treatments have helped people by treating them

while they are in a clean environment and their homes are getting remediated

than seeing if they can or cannot tolerate their home

after being away from it and in a clean environment and with

things like detoxing, and other treatments.

> [] Re: Who Do You Believe? And Why?

>

>

>

> Im not sure about it either and honestly feel like I have walked into the

middle of two warring camps. I am just trying to make sense of all the info and

figure out what and how to treat " the person " who is me and who is very sick and

about up to my eyeballs in all this.

>

> The terminology is close to criminal thats for sure because there is not

enough known and shoemaker should call back this term. This is based on his

limited experience using CSM only and only his way.

>

> Who is getting better on this list?

>

> How to determine how to treat the person when there are so many povs,

" facts " and variables? Its all an expensive, life altering experiment.

>

> The cure is in fact unknown because there is not absolute.

>

> Robin

[Guest guest]

What the hell is going on here? Ive been to sick to read much but evidently

there is discord on a group I have been with for six years , have made

friiends as I dont get out of my house and live with aircleaners?KC keep up

the good work.

Janet

[Guest guest]

Dr. Thrasher,

I am very sorry to read that you are leaving this forum. It is a great loss for

this list. Hope you will reconsider or come back at some point. We've been very,

very fortunate to have your insights and ever consistent help. I'm not sure if

something happened here as I've been ill this week and too sick to read the

posts. Either way, I thank you very much and wish you all the best,

Sincerely,Sam 

Robin: I agree with you. There is no need to bring a war into the arena of

those who are ill. You can contact me personally. I have decided to leave this

forum.

[Guest guest]

My husband has one of the dreaded genes as well as lyme (which is also dreaded)

and he is fine... and I dont think this is recessive but if his is then mine

is.. not sure.. but makes me question the doom associated with certain genes

(HLA types, though the gene talk can get to me. Since I am sick, I have to take

seriously. There have to be other factors at play. Not everyone with the celiac

genes gets celiac disease or even gluten intolerance.

??

Robin

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> I understand where you are coming from. There are people with recessive genes

that never get ill. The only thing one can do is get a diagnosis. All that we

can say is the risk is higher with certain genes. Once one has the knowledge of

their genetic defects, then they can take steps to reduce exposures. This is

all I can offer you.

>

>

[Guest guest]

do you know of any views he has changed.. has be published updated info or

opinion.. I have not run across this info. He repeatedly states that the

" dreaded " HLA types rarely get well. Its very depressing and he should clarify

every time he makes this statement " given my limited experience " though his

experience is vast compared to most practioners, it limited to his protocol and

his particular use of his protocol. He scares me so badly that at this point, I

dont have much respect for him despite his contributions.

And if he has more info to share, he should get that out with web page into or

some other way. He is still giving out the same protocol.

Robin

>

> Thats why I continually tell posters that the mold warriors book is outdated,

Shoemaker has said he needs to write a new book as well,

> that is why I dont like to read posts where people are telling newcomers to

read mold warriors like it's all knowing, because it's not.

> this was wrote at a time when there wasn't alot of answers out there.

> you basicly are settting your knowledge back to the time that was wrote if you

read it. alot has happened sence than, alot.

>

[Guest guest]

I understand, I have respect for him as well but I cant say that I have tottally

agreed with things in the past or even now.

I'm thinking his web site is chronicbiotoxins.com ?

try puting chronicbiotoxins in your search engine on your home page and see if

that brings it up, theres more updated info. there.

I think his views have changed some as far as years back being pretty convienced

that if you didn't have these geneotypes that you weren't sick from mold and if

CSM didn't cure you you weren't sick from mold, to know knowing that theres

reason why some cant tolerate the protocal, and that the genetics isn't the only

factor here.

I think theres some videos there you can watch.

I haven't been there for a long time so I really dont know.

and he can have a bit of attitude that can rub some of us the wrong way, but you

know doctors can often be this way, thats no excuse and I'm not makeing one for

him. everybody has choise and thats what life is all about.

there were things that happened with my exposure that not everyone goes through

and I felt that he was lacking in that department.

doctors only know what they know, he has consentrated most of his work in one

area, so that explains that, I realize now that there needs to be communacation

between the doctors that are dealing with this issue and/or if it's going to

stay this way, we all need to be honestly imformed somehow to deturmine just who

we should go to based on our needs, not because one patient set on this group

and touts about how great a certain doctor is. I would just assume we didn't do

that but I dont run this board.

they are all great in that they are involved with trying to treat us, but lets

not forget that they are makeing good money by doing so.

they also probably have times when they have to many patients and not enough

time in a day.

they themselfs can sometimes not realize just how hard it can be on someone

haveing to travel long distances to get to them .

and few, if manageing to get to one cant afford to turn around and go to another

so yes, it's important to have a good understanding

of what they all have to offer and how and what might help each person.

unfortionity there has not much done in this area so we are still own are own

even on this subject.

I wish I could be more helpful, but I cant.

let me know if you find his website or not.

>

> do you know of any views he has changed.. has be published updated info or

opinion.. I have not run across this info. He repeatedly states that the

" dreaded " HLA types rarely get well. Its very depressing and he should clarify

every time he makes this statement " given my limited experience " though his

experience is vast compared to most practioners, it limited to his protocol and

his particular use of his protocol. He scares me so badly that at this point, I

dont have much respect for him despite his contributions.

>

> And if he has more info to share, he should get that out with web page into or

some other way. He is still giving out the same protocol.

>

> Robin

>

[Guest guest]

there are other factors involved. the exposure is what makes us sick, not the

genes. soory I'm not up to trying to get much deeper into this subject than I

already have. I understand why you are so conserned but I fell pretty confident

in saying that if you can get in a toxin free environment it should help you

fell much better

to this day I have a hard time trying to consentrate on more than one thing at a

time and I cant multitask anymore.

I dont have lyme and really dont know much about it, soory, I no it has alot of

the same effects and seems to affect some more than others.

>

> My husband has one of the dreaded genes as well as lyme (which is also

dreaded) and he is fine... and I dont think this is recessive but if his is then

mine is.. not sure.. but makes me question the doom associated with certain

genes (HLA types, though the gene talk can get to me. Since I am sick, I have to

take seriously. There have to be other factors at play. Not everyone with the

celiac genes gets celiac disease or even gluten intolerance.

>

> ??

>

> Robin

> --- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@>

wrote:

> >

> > I understand where you are coming from. There are people with recessive

genes that never get ill. The only thing one can do is get a diagnosis. All

that we can say is the risk is higher with certain genes. Once one has the

knowledge of their genetic defects, then they can take steps to reduce

exposures. This is all I can offer you.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I was diagnosed 3 years ago. here is his site. Possibly his newer you tube

offers more hope for the " dreadeds " . I havent viewed it.

http://www.biotoxin.info/webcasts

Robin

>

> I understand, I have respect for him as well but I cant say that I have

tottally agreed with things in the past or even now.

> I'm thinking his web site is chronicbiotoxins.com ?

> try puting chronicbiotoxins in your search engine on your home page and see if

that brings it up, theres more updated info. there.

> I think his views have changed some as far as years back being pretty

convienced that if you didn't have these geneotypes that you weren't sick from

mold and if CSM didn't cure you you weren't sick from mold, to know knowing that

theres reason why some cant tolerate the protocal, and that the genetics isn't

the only factor here.

> I think theres some videos there you can watch.

> I haven't been there for a long time so I really dont know.

> and he can have a bit of attitude that can rub some of us the wrong way, but

you know doctors can often be this way, thats no excuse and I'm not makeing one

for him. everybody has choise and thats what life is all about.

>