Re: need input on mold testing

October 29, 2010

May I strongly suggest that you read the document below. Air spore counts are

not the answer to the problem.

http://www.policyholdersofamerica.org/doc/CIRS_PEER_REVIEWED_PAPER.pdf

[] need input on mold testing

My daughter sent me a email this morning and would like to know what questions

to ask about their testing and qualifcations.

There had been mold in the schools sanctuary which she had brought to

their attention and they fixed the air, did not run air scrubbers, she is

sensitive to mold like most of us. She said there areas that get wet still now

when it rains she still is detecting mold in areas and wants to make sure of

their qualifcations and tests. I removed the names of people and school

involved. The email they sent her is below.

Any input would be appreciated.

Lee

A licensed inspector from Mold Inspection Services will be here at 4:00pm on

Monday to look at . He will run some air tests in the hallways and the rooms he

chooses. Testing the air is the first step, and it will take a couple of days to

get the results. If the results are positive for mold levels (that are too high)

then he will begin the search for the mold. We should know something by the

middle or end of the week.

I worked with this company this week while testing the Sanctuary. Mold was

discovered in the basement equipment room and the remediation will begin as soon

as a contractor is selected. The inspector is detailing the scope of the project

so contractors can bid the work. The testing of the air in all the public areas

of the basement ( hallways and choir room) came back as acceptable. No air

scrubbing or other cleaning methods are required in those areas. The mold spores

are contained in the equipment room according to the tests he conducted this

week.

If you have questions feel free to contact me.

Thanks

October 29, 2010

Thank you Dr. Thrasher, will forward the link to her..

Lee

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> May I strongly suggest that you read the document below. Air spore counts are

not the answer to the problem.

>

> http://www.policyholdersofamerica.org/doc/CIRS_PEER_REVIEWED_PAPER.pdf

>

> [] need input on mold testing

>

> My daughter sent me a email this morning and would like to know what

questions to ask about their testing and qualifcations.

> There had been mold in the schools sanctuary which she had brought to

> their attention and they fixed the air, did not run air scrubbers, she is

sensitive to mold like most of us. She said there areas that get wet still now

when it rains she still is detecting mold in areas and wants to make sure of

their qualifcations and tests. I removed the names of people and school

involved. The email they sent her is below.

> Any input would be appreciated.

> Lee

>

> A licensed inspector from Mold Inspection Services will be here at 4:00pm on

Monday to look at . He will run some air tests in the hallways and the rooms he

chooses. Testing the air is the first step, and it will take a couple of days to

get the results. If the results are positive for mold levels (that are too high)

then he will begin the search for the mold. We should know something by the

middle or end of the week.

>

> I worked with this company this week while testing the Sanctuary. Mold was

discovered in the basement equipment room and the remediation will begin as soon

as a contractor is selected. The inspector is detailing the scope of the project

so contractors can bid the work. The testing of the air in all the public areas

of the basement ( hallways and choir room) came back as acceptable. No air

scrubbing or other cleaning methods are required in those areas. The mold spores

are contained in the equipment room according to the tests he conducted this

week.

>

> If you have questions feel free to contact me.

> Thanks

>

October 30, 2010

Lee,

Let me second Dr Thrashers citation and judgment of air spore

counting. There is a section in the paper about testing which

summarizes what each type of testing and analysis can and

cannot determine. There is no one definitive test, analysis, or

interpretation.

Testing without first establishing a context for what the results

could mean is nearly meaningless. As far as identifying " positive

for mold levels (that are too high) " I defy anyone to tell me any

objective basis for what those levels may be. I know of at least a

baker's dozen (13) methods of interpretation. Which will they

choose?

Specifically to your situation, if the inspector believes his samples

indicate a source of mold GROWTH then by all means let him

search. But if his samples indicates there is not mold growth then

he should keep looking especially if there is a history of moisture

and other factors.

Quite frankly, if a person (especially if only one person) reacts

then something is wrong. It may or it may not be mold.

The biggest mistake made is to assume mold and then take

some sort of test for mold and then make some sort of

conclusion that mold is the problem. If a sample doesn't find mold

something was wrong with the sampling.

On the other hand, if you are affected in the space then the

interpretation is mold is the problem. However, if you are the one

responsible for fixing it then your interpretation will be that mold is

not a problem.

How to settle the difference of opinion? There are ways but not by

more sampling.

A reasonable inspection based on building science, history,

psychrometry, fungal biology, type and use of building, materials

and contents will tell much more than the numerology of numbers

from from a few spore traps (which is what they are using).

If I were to venture a guess about the experience of people on

this group, the majority who were exposed to mold were also

exposed to other substances. Only addressing the mold would

not stop the reactions.

Many, if not most, were misled by mold testing saying there was

no problem when in fact there was mold. Others have

experienced the life altering and financially destructive

consequences of mold testing being interpreted as " a problem "

when either it wasn't or there were other problems.

Mold testing is a tool which must be used with informed

expertise. By itself it causes more harm than the mold itself.

It would be better to base further action on moisture and water

intrusion instead of what may result from the moisture and water

intrusion. The final verification is the lack of reactivity after the

work is completed. ACGIH and EPA all have language stating

this.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Thank you Dr. Thrasher, will forward the link to her..

Lee

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> May I strongly suggest that you read the document below. Air spore counts are

not the answer to the problem.

>

> http://www.policyholdersofamerica.org/doc/CIRS_PEER_REVIEWED_PAPER.pdf

>

> [] need input on mold testing

>

> My daughter sent me a email this morning and would like to know what questions

to ask about their testing and qualifcations.

> There had been mold in the schools sanctuary which she had brought to

> their attention and they fixed the air, did not run air scrubbers, she is

sensitive to mold like most of us. She said there areas that get wet still now

when it rains she still is detecting mold in areas and wants to make sure of

their qualifcations and tests. I removed the names of people and school

involved. The email they sent her is below.

> Any input would be appreciated.

> Lee

>

> A licensed inspector from Mold Inspection Services will be here at 4:00pm on

Monday to look at . He will run some air tests in the hallways and the rooms he

chooses. Testing the air is the first step, and it will take a couple of days to

get the results. If the results are positive for mold levels (that are too high)

then he will begin the search for the mold. We should know something by the

middle or end of the week.

>

> I worked with this company this week while testing the Sanctuary. Mold was

discovered in the basement equipment room and the remediation will begin as soon

as a contractor is selected. The inspector is detailing the scope of the project

so contractors can bid the work. The testing of the air in all the public areas

of the basement ( hallways and choir room) came back as acceptable. No air

scrubbing or other cleaning methods are required in those areas. The mold spores

are contained in the equipment room according to the tests he conducted this

week.

>

> If you have questions feel free to contact me.

> Thanks

>

October 31, 2010

Carl,

Thank you so much for the in depth explaniation, I will forward this

to her.

Lee

>

> Lee,

>

> Let me second Dr Thrashers citation and judgment of air spore

> counting. There is a section in the paper about testing which

> summarizes what each type of testing and analysis can and

> cannot determine. There is no one definitive test, analysis, or

> interpretation.

>

> Testing without first establishing a context for what the results

> could mean is nearly meaningless. As far as identifying " positive

> for mold levels (that are too high) " I defy anyone to tell me any

> objective basis for what those levels may be. I know of at least a

> baker's dozen (13) methods of interpretation. Which will they

> choose?

>

> Specifically to your situation, if the inspector believes his samples

> indicate a source of mold GROWTH then by all means let him

> search. But if his samples indicates there is not mold growth then

> he should keep looking especially if there is a history of moisture

> and other factors.

>

> Quite frankly, if a person (especially if only one person) reacts

> then something is wrong. It may or it may not be mold.

>

> The biggest mistake made is to assume mold and then take

> some sort of test for mold and then make some sort of

> conclusion that mold is the problem. If a sample doesn't find mold

> something was wrong with the sampling.

>

> On the other hand, if you are affected in the space then the

> interpretation is mold is the problem. However, if you are the one

> responsible for fixing it then your interpretation will be that mold is

> not a problem.

>

> How to settle the difference of opinion? There are ways but not by

> more sampling.

>

> A reasonable inspection based on building science, history,

> psychrometry, fungal biology, type and use of building, materials

> and contents will tell much more than the numerology of numbers

> from from a few spore traps (which is what they are using).

>

> If I were to venture a guess about the experience of people on

> this group, the majority who were exposed to mold were also

> exposed to other substances. Only addressing the mold would

> not stop the reactions.

>

> Many, if not most, were misled by mold testing saying there was

> no problem when in fact there was mold. Others have

> experienced the life altering and financially destructive

> consequences of mold testing being interpreted as " a problem "

> when either it wasn't or there were other problems.

>

> Mold testing is a tool which must be used with informed

> expertise. By itself it causes more harm than the mold itself.

>

> It would be better to base further action on moisture and water

> intrusion instead of what may result from the moisture and water

> intrusion. The final verification is the lack of reactivity after the

> work is completed. ACGIH and EPA all have language stating

> this.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

October 31, 2010

Thanks Carl: All I can add is that one must become aware of the biocontaminants

present in water-damaged buildings. They interact with each other. I will give

an example. I have a case in Sacramento where the woman, her fiancé and her

daughter are experiencing multiple health problems including muscle wasting. We

have tested the apartment, the ground water that she drank and we will next test

the office facility where she worked. Since all three are experiencing

practically the same health problems we suspect the apartment. In a nutshell

here is what we have found:

ERMI PCR DNA of bulk samples: Stachybotrys, several species of Penicillium and

Aspergillus among other fungi.

Mycotoxin Testing: Macrocyclic trichothecenes produced by Stachybotrys;

Trichothecenes, Aflatoxins, Ochratoxins in the urine of all three;

Trichothecenes in the urine of the pet cat. The pet has serious liver

inflammation and so does the female owner.

Bacteria: Gram negative bacteria (Pseudomonas, bacilli of several species and

cocci) at 2.5 million per gram of dust. Endotoxins: 1 million EU/gram of dust.

Odors: Musty smell characteristic of mold; also rotten egg odor (hydrogen

sulfide). We suspect sewage flooding also.

Ground water: Gram negative bacteria, heavy metals and pesticides were non

detect. Acinetobacter lwoffi was the major gram negative bacterium isolate from

the ground water. All others could not be identified except as bacilli and

cocci.

I must point out the hydrogen sulfide and aflatoxin are mitochondrial poisons.

Endotoxins are synergistic with trichothecenes and aflatoxins.

As you can see from this general outline there is more than just fungi impinging

upon this family and their pet.

I am recommending diagnostic testing for mitochondrial damage. Her neurologists

has excluded central and peripheral motor and sensory neuropathy as well as

eliminated M.S.

Conclusion: Contaminants are more than just fungi and mycotoxins that impinge

upon the health of the occupants.

[] Re: need input on mold testing

Carl,

Thank you so much for the in depth explaniation, I will forward this

to her.

Lee

>

> Lee,

>

> Let me second Dr Thrashers citation and judgment of air spore

> counting. There is a section in the paper about testing which

> summarizes what each type of testing and analysis can and

> cannot determine. There is no one definitive test, analysis, or

> interpretation.

>

October 31, 2010

Great example, Jack, of why a singular focus on only mold can lead to a failure

to stop the reactions. And why if any testing is done it must be informed and

comprehensive testing to get usable information which can lead to identifying

what the problem is, where it is located, and where to take action.

The fact that there is a problem is determined by the fact someone is sick. Not

by the testing. Testing can sometimes be very useful for identifying what is

making someone sick. If done carefully within the context of an inspection the

location can usually be identified but the inspection can often determine that,

almost always for the simpler situations. Yours is complex.

I know we all want quick and simple answers and sometimes that's all we need.

But overly focused on testing (and spraying foo foo juice to kill mold) only

makes us susceptible to those who want to charge for what they do instead of

what you need.

And that requires a proper inspection. When the simple doesn't work, which is

true for most on this group, then you need a better definition of the problem.

Simple testing by itself doesn't do that anymore than simple killing of mold

growth doesn't stop the exposure to the mold.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

Re: [] Re: need input on mold testing

Thanks Carl: All I can add is that one must become aware of the biocontaminants

present in water-damaged buildings. They interact with each other. I will give

an example. I have a case in Sacramento where the woman, her fiancé and her

daughter are experiencing multiple health problems including muscle wasting. We

have tested the apartment, the ground water that she drank and we will next test

the office facility where she worked. Since all three are experiencing

practically the same health problems we suspect the apartment. In a nutshell

here is what we have found:

ERMI PCR DNA of bulk samples: Stachybotrys, several species of Penicillium and

Aspergillus among other fungi.

Mycotoxin Testing: Macrocyclic trichothecenes produced by Stachybotrys;

Trichothecenes, Aflatoxins, Ochratoxins in the urine of all three;

Trichothecenes in the urine of the pet cat. The pet has serious liver

inflammation and so does the female owner.

Bacteria: Gram negative bacteria (Pseudomonas, bacilli of several species and

cocci) at 2.5 million per gram of dust. Endotoxins: 1 million EU/gram of dust.

Odors: Musty smell characteristic of mold; also rotten egg odor (hydrogen

sulfide). We suspect sewage flooding also.

Ground water: Gram negative bacteria, heavy metals and pesticides were non

detect. Acinetobacter lwoffi was the major gram negative bacterium isolate from

the ground water. All others could not be identified except as bacilli and

cocci.

I must point out the hydrogen sulfide and aflatoxin are mitochondrial poisons.

Endotoxins are synergistic with trichothecenes and aflatoxins.

As you can see from this general outline there is more than just fungi impinging

upon this family and their pet.

I am recommending diagnostic testing for mitochondrial damage. Her neurologists

has excluded central and peripheral motor and sensory neuropathy as well as

eliminated M.S.

Conclusion: Contaminants are more than just fungi and mycotoxins that impinge

upon the health of the occupants.

[] Re: need input on mold testing

Carl,

Thank you so much for the in depth explaniation, I will forward this

to her.

Lee

>

> Lee,

>

> Let me second Dr Thrashers citation and judgment of air spore

> counting. There is a section in the paper about testing which

> summarizes what each type of testing and analysis can and

> cannot determine. There is no one definitive test, analysis, or

> interpretation.

>

October 31, 2010

Carl: Correct. I recommend that if one needs or wants to know the

microorganisms that are present all they have to do is two simple tests:

ERMI to determine critical species of mold (do on bulk samples) and

bacterial cultures for Gram negative and positive bacteria (bulk samples).

I have another example for the group: This is a school where two

counselors, each had a cubby hole as an office with no ventilation. Both

are very ill. Mold spore counts were low. However, the following was

found:

1. Two of us in the rooms with door closed. We used a Carbon dioxide

monitor. Carbon dioxide was as follows: large open office waiting area: 750

ppm; offices immediately upon entering: 800 ppm; Offices after being the

room, door closed as done by the counselors for 1 to 2 hours. Carbon

dioxide readings were 1800 to 2000 ppm (this simulates door closed when

counseling students and their parents).

2. Particulates: We have a meter that records particulates form 0.3 to 10

microns. The 0.3 microns are akin to the fine particulates shed by colonies

of fungi and bacteria. 0.3 microns particles were approximately 48,000 per

cubic meter in both offices with the doors closed and no ventilation. In

the waiting area they were approximately 20,000 per cubic meter. Remember,

the fine particles carry the toxins just as do the larger particles (spores

and hyphae fragments). Interestingly, when we turned on the fan of the base

board heaters the particulate fraction became heavily laden with larger

particles 2.5 to 10 microns, while the fine particles fell considerably.

Thus, the particulate fraction depends upon the condition of the ventilation

of the room.

3. We have other tests results that will be obtained in the next few days.

Re: [] Re: need input on mold testing

Great example, Jack, of why a singular focus on only mold can lead to a

failure to stop the reactions. And why if any testing is done it must be

informed and comprehensive testing to get usable information which can lead

to identifying what the problem is, where it is located, and where to take

action.

October 31, 2010

May I ask, just curious.

If everybody is sick, why don't they just leave? If they own the house that does

present a moral dilemma, i.e. you'd need to remediate before selling to have

integrity, rather than allowing another family to get sick.

It's doubtful whether such a sick space can be remediated without lots of money

and even then, who knows whether some family members will have developed

hypersensitivity to these toxins. And anyway, for some reason, stachy toxins

stick to things for years.

A friend of mine gave me a rule of thumb recently and in retrospect it applies

well. If someone you know seems to be suffering from a biotoxin type illness

(CFS/MCS/Lyme/ME/Mold and all the names these related syndromes go by) then

assume their environment has a problem.

It seems to me testing is helpful for a bigger picture of trying to change the

prevailing wisdom about sick buildings. IE it helps to prove the syndrome exists

if the fungi and microorganisms in the building are also carried by the people,

or the toxins are evident in their urine.

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> Carl: Correct. I recommend that if one needs or wants to know the

> microorganisms that are present all they have to do is two simple tests:

> ERMI to determine critical species of mold (do on bulk samples) and

> bacterial cultures for Gram negative and positive bacteria (bulk samples).

>

> I have another example for the group: This is a school where two

> counselors, each had a cubby hole as an office with no ventilation. Both

> are very ill. Mold spore counts were low. However, the following was

> found:

>

October 31, 2010

I just recently spoke to someone who mentioned a high incidence of MS in Ohio,

higher than anywhere in the US.Â Is this not the state with the fungal problem

that is new ?Â Â

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

Sent: Sun, October 31, 2010 1:51:04 PM

Subject: Re: [] Re: need input on mold testing

Â

Thanks Carl: All I can add is that one must become aware of the biocontaminants

present in water-damaged buildings. They interact with each other. I will give

daughter are experiencing multiple health problems including muscle wasting. We

have tested the apartment, the ground water that she drank and we will next test

the office facility where she worked. Since all three are experiencing

practically the same health problems we suspect the apartment. In a nutshell

here is what we have found:

ERMI PCR DNA of bulk samples: Stachybotrys, several species of Penicillium and

Aspergillus among other fungi.

Mycotoxin Testing: Macrocyclic trichothecenes produced by Stachybotrys;

Trichothecenes, Aflatoxins, Ochratoxins in the urine of all three;

Trichothecenes in the urine of the pet cat. The pet has serious liver

inflammation and so does the female owner.

Bacteria: Gram negative bacteria (Pseudomonas, bacilli of several species and

cocci) at 2.5 million per gram of dust. Endotoxins: 1 million EU/gram of dust.

Odors: Musty smell characteristic of mold; also rotten egg odor (hydrogen

sulfide). We suspect sewage flooding also.

Ground water: Gram negative bacteria, heavy metals and pesticides were non

detect. Acinetobacter lwoffi was the major gram negative bacterium isolate from

the ground water. All others could not be identified except as bacilli and

cocci.

I must point out the hydrogen sulfide and aflatoxin are mitochondrial poisons.

Endotoxins are synergistic with trichothecenes and aflatoxins.

As you can see from this general outline there is more than just fungi impinging

upon this family and their pet.

I am recommending diagnostic testing for mitochondrial damage. Her neurologists

has excluded central and peripheral motor and sensory neuropathy as well as

eliminated M.S.

Conclusion: Contaminants are more than just fungi and mycotoxins that impinge

upon the health of the occupants.

[] Re: need input on mold testing

Carl,

Thank you so much for the in depth explaniation, I will forward this

to her.

Lee

>

> Lee,

>

> Let me second Dr Thrashers citation and judgment of air spore

> counting. There is a section in the paper about testing which

> summarizes what each type of testing and analysis can and

> cannot determine. There is no one definitive test, analysis, or

> interpretation.

>

October 31, 2010

I have just added a short essay on bacterial and fungal chronic rhinosinusitis

and the role of microbial biofilms to my web site. Perhaps this will help with

respect to the bigger picture. We have isolated bacteria and fungi from chronic

sinusitis patients who have recurrent exacerbations.

http://www.drthrasher.org/page198.html

[] Re: need input on mold testing

May I ask, just curious.

If everybody is sick, why don't they just leave? If they own the house that

does present a moral dilemma, i.e. you'd need to remediate before selling to

have integrity, rather than allowing another family to get sick.

It's doubtful whether such a sick space can be remediated without lots of

money and even then, who knows whether some family members will have developed

hypersensitivity to these toxins. And anyway, for some reason, stachy toxins

stick to things for years.

A friend of mine gave me a rule of thumb recently and in retrospect it applies

well. If someone you know seems to be suffering from a biotoxin type illness

(CFS/MCS/Lyme/ME/Mold and all the names these related syndromes go by) then

assume their environment has a problem.

It seems to me testing is helpful for a bigger picture of trying to change the

prevailing wisdom about sick buildings. IE it helps to prove the syndrome exists

if the fungi and microorganisms in the building are also carried by the people,

or the toxins are evident in their urine.

>

> Carl: Correct. I recommend that if one needs or wants to know the

> microorganisms that are present all they have to do is two simple tests:

> ERMI to determine critical species of mold (do on bulk samples) and

> bacterial cultures for Gram negative and positive bacteria (bulk samples).

>

> I have another example for the group: This is a school where two

> counselors, each had a cubby hole as an office with no ventilation. Both

> are very ill. Mold spore counts were low. However, the following was

> found:

>

October 31, 2010

What was found in the counselors' cubby hole was missing at the end of Carl's

report....

Kathi

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> I have just added a short essay on bacterial and fungal chronic rhinosinusitis

and the role of microbial biofilms to my web site. Perhaps this will help with

respect to the bigger picture. We have isolated bacteria and fungi from chronic

sinusitis patients who have recurrent exacerbations.

>

> http://www.drthrasher.org/page198.html

>

October 31, 2010

where do you get this test?

bacterial cultures for Gram negative and positive bacteria (bulk samples).

robin

--- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> Carl: Correct. I recommend that if one needs or wants to know the

> microorganisms that are present all they have to do is two simple tests:

> ERMI to determine critical species of mold (do on bulk samples) and

> bacterial cultures for Gram negative and positive bacteria (bulk samples).

>

> I have another example for the group: This is a school where two

> counselors, each had a cubby hole as an office with no ventilation. Both

> are very ill. Mold spore counts were low. However, the following was

> found:

>

> 1. Two of us in the rooms with door closed. We used a Carbon dioxide

> monitor. Carbon dioxide was as follows: large open office waiting area: 750

> ppm; offices immediately upon entering: 800 ppm; Offices after being the

> room, door closed as done by the counselors for 1 to 2 hours. Carbon

> dioxide readings were 1800 to 2000 ppm (this simulates door closed when

> counseling students and their parents).

>

> 2. Particulates: We have a meter that records particulates form 0.3 to 10

> microns. The 0.3 microns are akin to the fine particulates shed by colonies

> of fungi and bacteria. 0.3 microns particles were approximately 48,000 per

> cubic meter in both offices with the doors closed and no ventilation. In

> the waiting area they were approximately 20,000 per cubic meter. Remember,

> the fine particles carry the toxins just as do the larger particles (spores

> and hyphae fragments). Interestingly, when we turned on the fan of the base

> board heaters the particulate fraction became heavily laden with larger

> particles 2.5 to 10 microns, while the fine particles fell considerably.

> Thus, the particulate fraction depends upon the condition of the ventilation

> of the room.

>

> 3. We have other tests results that will be obtained in the next few days.

October 31, 2010

EMSL we do the cultures. Other microbiology laboratories. Just check on

Google.