Mold Testing for Safety [was: Re: air purifier and cleaning house]

[Guest guest]

a,

Good question and I hope my answer doesn't overwhelm or

discourage you. There is a simpler and more accurate method

than sampling which I offer at the end. But first it will help to

understand why sampling won't answer your question about

safety.

There is no air sampling - do-it-yourself or professional - which by

itself is reliable for much of anything beyond determining that

Yes, this is mold or No, this is not mold. Plus what kind of mold

was collected and identified in the sample with a semi-

quantitative measure of amount (meaning there are numbers but

they are usually not accurate). It will not tell you what mold is

present but which wasn't collected and identified. Which is often

much of the mold.

Mold spores are always in the air, inside and outside. Until you

are extremely sensitive and perhaps disabled those ambient

spores won't be a problem. And you can't get rid of them anyway.

Mold *growth* is the problem, not just the ambient spores always

present in the air. Mold growth occurs only at the location of

dampness.

When there is dampness there will also be bacteria and other

micro-organisms. If the dampness persists or is periodic then

dust collects in the damp area providing more food for more

growth. The specific conditions of that micro-environment change

over time supporting the growth of different molds, bacteria, etc.

Which means that checking for mold, even if the sampling were

accurate (which it rarely is) is not sufficient to determine safety for

people. Because mold sampling won't find most of the mold or

any of the bacteria or growth of other organisms.

Also, mold sampling will only find the seeds (spores) which

develop from the total plant (mold colony). Colonies don't always

create spores just like flowers and trees don't always create their

seeds.

Entact spores from mold growth under floors or inside walls, for

example, often can't get out of the wall and no air sample will

ever find them. Although the smaller pieces of fragmented spores

and " mold plant " do get out and expose people the mold

sampling won't find it because it can only find entact spores.

Identification of mold biomass in dust samples is the where labs

identify the DNA through a process called PCR. This can identify

over 160 species of mold.

A shortened version called Environmental Relative Moldiness

Index (ERMI) has been touted as a way for the lab to create a

single digit number to identify whether mold is a problem or not.

However, neither the inventor nor the EPA which funded his

research, support ERMI as a diagnostic for homes and certainly

not for health. Last June EPA released a statement specifically

saying ERMI is to be used for research only.

However, in proper hands with sufficient samples from

appropriate locations the PCR information (minus the index

number) from an ERMI sample can provide valuable information.

But it is still just one method providing information unique to itself

just like all the spore detection methods described above provide

information unique to themselves.

The components which make up the cell wall of the spores are

also in the cell walls of the total " mold plant. " It is these " things " in

the cell walls (and inside the cell) which trigger allergies, asthma

attacks, neurologic conditions and a myriad of other possible

reactions including a disruption of the immune system and other

body organs.

Assuming we could accurately measure " how much " mold spores

and bacteria you are exposed to, we still wouldn't know " how

much " of which of the millions of species is necessary to trigger a

reaction in you. You may react tp only a couple of spores but I

wouldn't react until there were a couple of thousand spores.

My reaction my be life threatening (like an asthma attack) to one

type of mold or bacteria or even inert particles (dust) but barely

noticeable to another person. What is " okay " for me may be life

threatening to someone else.

If you have a medical condition identified by a health care

professional (not always an MD) and they can identify a specific

type of organism then sampling is necessary to try to find that

organism in your home. Air sampling can be helpful here with an

appropriate sampling plan to determine presence and, with

enough samples collected over a long enough time, an estimate

of exposure.

Because different sampling types tend to identify a limited range

of all the molds and bacteria which could be present, there needs

to be a variety of sampling types collected. Dr Thrasher who is

also on this list has excellent information about this at his Web

site at: www.drthrasher.org

Which leads to those other " things " in the cell walls and beyond.

Mold growth oozes enzymes to digest its food. The enzymes can

be at least an irritant if not an allergen or other " trigger. "

While growing the mold plant also generates microbial Volatile

Organic Compounds (MVOCs). These are in the same family,

and are some of the same chemicals, which chemically intolerant

people react to. Such things a odors, fragrances, formaldehyde,

detergents, deodorants, fungicides, anti-microbial chemicals,

paint, etc. This can cause massive confusion if you aren't reactive

to the mold spores and " plant " particles but are to the chemicals

they give off.

Mycotoxins from mold and endotoxins from bacteria are another

concern. Less is known about them in water damaged buildings

(WDB) and testing is very expensive. There is only one lab

analyzing environmental samples at this time and the cost is over

$700 per sample. IF there is a need for medical or legal reasons

and IF the samples are properly collected, then mycotoxin

information can be helpful.

Finally, dead mold causes the same health effects as live mold

so it is almost always a waste of time, money and energy to

struggle with killing mold.

Remove the mold and there is nothing to kill. If you can't remove

the mold from the surface it is growing on then remove that

surface. If removal of the sources isn't sufficient then remove

yourself from the house.

Now for the simpler and more accurate method.

No mold sampling of any type gives meaningful information

without a context. How the numbers are interpreted depends on

climate, the type of house, the materials the house is made of,

how many people are in the house, the age and condition of the

house, history including any past floods, leaks, or sewer

backflows, condensation in the walls, proper installation of

insulation, and psychrometrics (dynamic interaction of humidity,

temperature, dew point and surface temperature), to name but a

few.

What may be " safe " for one person may be " unsafe " for another.

The main reason why the numbers have no meaning by

themselves.

If these factors, including your individual susceptibility profile, are

identified then sampling data can have meaning. If these are

identified by an inspection by a knowledgeable person then 90%

of the time no sampling is needed because this information will

identify mold growth locations and suspected mold growth

locations. (Which will include locations of bacteria and other

organisms also).

Which means your questions will be answered without the

sampling.

The trick is to find someone who understands this and will

provide a sufficient inspection instead of collecting a couple of

spore traps or settling plates and reading the history of the world

in the " tea leaves. "

They are out there. A key to qualifying them is to ask for their

certifications (quality ones can be found at hhcontractors.org plus

training. The knowledge base of the training should be

independent from the organization providing the training.

Otherwise you get someone trained to sell the products and

services which make money for the organization.

But for me the key question is, " Do you first inspect and then

take samples only if my questions cannot be answered any other

way? "

Sorry for the long answer but without this understanding your will

most likely get information you will rely on but the information is

not reliable. That gives false assurance and false hope, which

can be harmful and is inherently cruel.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

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I am new to this group and this is my first posting: is there a reliable do

yourself AIR SAMPLING kit out there anybody had experience with? I

know we do have mold in one area of the house (on the outside and

inside the walls) and heat a lot in winter time to keep it there. But as we

have a baby, I'd like to double check and be safe...

Thank you for any advice!

a