Re: Testing plan--for insurance and potential legal case

[Guest guest]

You need a professional who understands how to do this.

Any response by the general public who is not a qualified expert

has no chance in court. Even many " professionals " don't stand a

chance.

You need a qualified professional who can not only present the

case for moisture causing mold but also how it happened in your

situation. They should also be able to determine whether or not

there were sources of expsosure other than mold, bacteria and

others associated with WDB. Otherwise the defense will claim

something like, " How do you know its not your laundry detergent,

or your cat? " If those are eliminated up front then they don't have

that " out. "

As other recent postings should have made clear, sampling by

itself will not win your case because it is so easy to refute. The

key isn't what kind of sampling with which lab. Yes, those details

are important because they often lose the case. But they can't

win the case by themselves. This is where all the other parts of

an inspection and assessment based on informed professional

judgment are absolutely critical. Without that background, the

supporting evidence, and the ability to defend the findings against

strong skeptics you only put yourself into a he-said, she-said

position and that never even gets to court.

This is not a do it yourself situation. Put your money where it can

be effective and that is NOT self sampling.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Hi all,

It has been made clear to me once again that our HOA will never vote to

fix the moisture and remaining mold (spores in the common area's

carpet and in the air; they did have the sheets of mold cleaned up in the

basement). The other members of the HOA keep telling me that mold

remediatiors have said that you can clean up the mold without fixing the

moisture, and despite all my counter arguments about how these

remediators are not scientists and are interested in selling a service, they

still believe they were right to clean up the visible mold problem and not

address the water coming in. You may wonder just where in the heck do

they think the mold problem came from in the first place? And while the

answer is clear to you and me--water in the basement--denial is as

powerful as any drug.

So we need to get out. Every day brings a new manifestation of illness for

me. Infections, shingles, and eczema should be enough; but it's the

constant rhinitis and fatigue that does me in.

I need to come up with a plan for environmental testing for insurance

purposes and in case we decide to plunder our retirement to go ahead

with a lawsuit.

I have so far done microscopic testing with a well known person in my

state. He grew colonies out of spores and found very high counts. He was

able to identify a few genera but mostly only species.

In order to have a case that would stand up in court, what do I need?

I am thinking PCR? Via bulk and tape or--? And mycotoxins and

bacteria? When I call an EMSL lab, what lingo do I use to get the right

testing?

As for myself, should I get mycotoxin testing from Real Time Labs or is

the presence of allergies sufficient from a legal, burden-of-proof point of

view?

Thanks for any help,

AN

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[Guest guest]

Perhaps your consultant can write a letter to the HOA. Assuming

he hasn't already done so. Sometimes the formal inclusion of

someone other than the occupant gets more attention.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Thanks, Carl. I see what you're saying. Forgive me, as I think you've said

a similar thing before. So, let me ask you. I told you the name of the

person who did our testing. He confirmed what was obvious to me--that

water comes in from a negative slope around the building, and from

short gutters and foundation problems. He said the mild in the basement

was then tracked and had circulated up the stairs into the carpeting and

then into our unit (and the other units, too).

He said that he could do " forensic testing " that is more suitable for court,

but he said that mold cases are iffy and he's been torn apart on the stand.

Is he the kind of expert you are referring to? I'd love to hire you or Dr.

Thrasher; the problem for me is that naturally you'd have travel dees in

addition to the testing and consulting fees, and that would probably add

up to more than I have.

Also, I'm not sure how much I have to do to build a case vecause the

claim isn't so much that mold, bacteria etc is making me sick, though it

is--even my doctor thinks so--but that the sellers disclosed NOTHING,

and the HOA is not maintaining the building.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 7, 2010, at 2:19 PM, " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...>

wrote:

You need a professional who understands how to do this.

Any response by the general public who is not a qualified expert

has no chance in court. Even many " professionals " don't stand a

chance.

You need a qualified professional who can not only present the

case for moisture causing mold but also how it happened in your

situation. They should also be able to determine whether or not

there were sources of expsosure other than mold, bacteria and

others associated with WDB. Otherwise the defense will claim

something like, " How do you know its not your laundry detergent,

or your cat? " If those are eliminated up front then they don't have

that " out. "

As other recent postings should have made clear, sampling by

itself will not win your case because it is so easy to refute. The

key isn't what kind of sampling with which lab. Yes, those details

are important because they often lose the case. But they can't

win the case by themselves. This is where all the other parts of

an inspection and assessment based on informed professional

judgment are absolutely critical. Without that background, the

supporting evidence, and the ability to defend the findings against

strong skeptics you only put yourself into a he-said, she-said

position and that never even gets to court.

This is not a do it yourself situation. Put your money where it can

be effective and that is NOT self sampling.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

----------

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Type: Unknown

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Carl. I see what you're saying. Forgive me, as I think you've said a

similar thing before. So, let me ask you. I told you the name of the person who

did our testing. He confirmed what was obvious to me--that water comes in from a

negative slope around the building, and from short gutters and foundation

problems. He said the mild in the basement was then tracked and had circulated

up the stairs into the carpeting and then into our unit (and the other units,

too).

He said that he could do " forensic testing " that is more suitable for court, but

he said that mold cases are iffy and he's been torn apart on the stand.

Is he the kind of expert you are referring to? I'd love to hire you or Dr.

Thrasher; the problem for me is that naturally you'd have travel dees in

addition to the testing and consulting fees, and that would probably add up to

more than I have.

Also, I'm not sure how much I have to do to build a case vecause the claim isn't

so much that mold, bacteria etc is making me sick, though it is--even my doctor

thinks so--but that the sellers disclosed NOTHING, and the HOA is not

maintaining the building.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 7, 2010, at 2:19 PM, " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

You need a professional who understands how to do this.

Any response by the general public who is not a qualified expert

has no chance in court. Even many " professionals " don't stand a

chance.

You need a qualified professional who can not only present the

case for moisture causing mold but also how it happened in your

situation. They should also be able to determine whether or not

there were sources of expsosure other than mold, bacteria and

others associated with WDB. Otherwise the defense will claim

something like, " How do you know its not your laundry detergent,

or your cat? " If those are eliminated up front then they don't have

that " out. "

As other recent postings should have made clear, sampling by

itself will not win your case because it is so easy to refute. The

key isn't what kind of sampling with which lab. Yes, those details

are important because they often lose the case. But they can't

win the case by themselves. This is where all the other parts of

an inspection and assessment based on informed professional

judgment are absolutely critical. Without that background, the

supporting evidence, and the ability to defend the findings against

strong skeptics you only put yourself into a he-said, she-said

position and that never even gets to court.

This is not a do it yourself situation. Put your money where it can

be effective and that is NOT self sampling.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the excellent idea, Carl.

Jeez, I have to apologize for my horrendous typos--it's that darn iPhone. I

should disable the auto-correct feature--and get some bifocals.

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Subject: Re: [] Testing plan--for insurance and potential legal

case

Date: Tuesday, December 7, 2010, 9:35 PM

Perhaps your consultant can write a letter to the HOA. Assuming

he hasn't already done so. Sometimes the formal inclusion of

someone other than the occupant gets more attention.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC