Re: Bulk Sample Collection

[Guest guest]

Just cut out a piece of mold growth. You should have it tested for species by

PCR and cultured for Gram negative and positive bacteria, particularly

Actinomycetes.

[] Bulk Sample Collection

What is the Proper way to collect a bulk sample for testing ( am using my air

filter) ? Which is least expensive to do ?

Mayleen

[Guest guest]

Thank you Dr Thrasher.   I have little to no funds. Do you know of any lab

that

may do OK job that is not costly.  I just want to know what is in here, how

fast

I can run within our means .......between a rock and a hard place.  

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 3:16:52 PM

Subject: Re: [] Bulk Sample Collection

 

Just cut out a piece of mold growth. You should have it tested for species by

PCR and cultured for Gram negative and positive bacteria, particularly

Actinomycetes.

[] Bulk Sample Collection

What is the Proper way to collect a bulk sample for testing ( am using my air

filter) ? Which is least expensive to do ?

Mayleen

[Guest guest]

Mayleen,

The answer isn't simple so those of you who want yes and no responses only and

are upset by details and " lectures " would be best to skip the rest of this

reply.

A bulk sample is a piece of the material on which the mold is growing. E.g. A

piece from a cardboard box, a piece of drywall, a piece of carpet, a piece of

wood. I once had a client send the lab a moldy shoe. This is compared to a

sample collected FROM the surface by tape lift or swab. Which is different from

a sample collected from the air.

There is no cheaper or more expensive way to collect a bulk sample. Cut it out

and put it in a baggie and send it overnight along with the chain of custody

form to an EMLAP/EMPAT or A2LA accredited lab. There are a number of excellent

labs all using the same protocol for each method. There is no " magic " lab for

spores like for specialized medical analysis or for mycotoxins.

The difference in cost will depend on what information you want. Because what

you want to know will determine which method(s) of analysis will be needed.

Each method can tell you something important about the sample but not

everything. Each is strictly limited. It is important to understand what those

are so you don't make erroneous decisions and conclusions.

ROUTINE OPTIONS:

You can have them analyse it by microscopy if you want quantification and

identification of spores whether dead or alive by genus. (A very few species,

occasionally).

Culturing if you want better quantification of spores by genus and some species

but limited to the live spores.

Or, culturing by species but it will take 1-3 weeks longer and cost more.

If culturing for " ordinary " mold specify MEA agar. If for Stachybotrys or

similar specify cornmeal, cellulose, or specially treated MEA agar. Consult with

lab for other options. Comparison of results is not recommended if different

agars are used because different ones grow different genus/species at different

rates at different temperatures.

If interested in bacteria you can use sheep's blood, TSA, BCYE, R2A and other

agars at different temperatures. Again, consult with lab as there are other

options for e-coli, coliform, Legionella, and others.

Actinomycetes must be specified, plus handling is more important. Glucan and

other components are specialized and requires consultation with the lab.

Ergosterol has tremendous possibilities for exposure estimates but is limited to

research labs at this time.

Bulk analysis for mycotoxins is limited to RealTime labs. Do not be confused by

mycotoxin analysis by other labs. It won't be analysing bulk samples, rather air

samples which is even more technical and limited.

If you want detailed species without quantity which includes both spores and

hyphae request PCR. With semi-quantification then QPCR with the understanding

that the counting will account for the intact spores only that can be seen under

a microscope. It won't include the fungal biomass which may account for the

majority of what the PCR analyses includes.

If PCR of 26 species associated with WDB and 10 which aren't according to the

experimental EPA protocol then request MSQPCR.

If you want the above numbers compared and reported as an index number, then

request ERMI. A simplified and less expensive test is ARMI. Keep in mind that

the patent holder, EPA, no longer supports them for diagnosis, only research.

Talk with the lab you decide to use for additional specifics and instructions.

Again, you have a sensible and important question but the only answer which has

any value is long and complex.

Simply collecting a couple of samples to determine safety or exposure or other

general information is only wishful thinking.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[] Bulk Sample Collection

What is the Proper way to collect a bulk sample for testing ( am using my air

filter) ?   Which is least expensive to do ?  

 

Mayleen

[Guest guest]

Thank you Carl, I willl use your answer to guide us in what we want.  The sample

is being collected by an air purifier. Or I can do a tape lift somewhere and

send that.  There is no visible mold what so ever that we have found.  I think

maybe a shottty remediation or maybe it was remediated and I cannot tolerate it,

making us sick.  Only when I closed the place up for summer did I start noticing

problems.  Then an odor cam from one room (not using) still cannot see any signs

of water anywhere.  The sewer has back-up 3x now as recent as a couple of days

ago.  I have to go out now but be back this evening. 

Talk about climate change.  Last 3 years here we have had actual winters and it

is freezing.  trying to find something warm we can use.  (that is why we are

going out) . 

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Carl Grimes <grimes@...>

Sick Buildings < >

Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 4:27:49 PM

Subject: Re: [] Bulk Sample Collection

Mayleen,

The answer isn't simple so those of you who want yes and no responses only and

are upset by details and " lectures " would be best to skip the rest of this

reply.

A bulk sample is a piece of the material on which the mold is growing. E.g. A

piece from a cardboard box, a piece of drywall, a piece of carpet, a piece of

wood. I once had a client send the lab a moldy shoe. This is compared to a

sample collected FROM the surface by tape lift or swab. Which is different from

a sample collected from the air.

There is no cheaper or more expensive way to collect a bulk sample. Cut it out

and put it in a baggie and send it overnight along with the chain of custody

form to an EMLAP/EMPAT or A2LA accredited lab. There are a number of excellent

labs all using the same protocol for each method. There is no " magic " lab for

spores like for specialized medical analysis or for mycotoxins.

The difference in cost will depend on what information you want.  Because what

you want to know will determine which method(s) of analysis will be needed.

Each method can tell you something important about the sample but not

everything. Each is strictly limited.  It is important to understand what those

are so you don't make erroneous decisions and conclusions.

ROUTINE OPTIONS:

You can have them analyse it by microscopy if you want quantification and

identification of spores whether dead or alive by genus. (A very few species,

occasionally).

Culturing if you want better quantification of spores by genus and some species

but limited to the live spores.

Or, culturing by species but it will take 1-3 weeks longer and cost more.

If culturing for " ordinary " mold specify MEA agar. If for Stachybotrys or

similar specify cornmeal, cellulose, or specially treated MEA agar. Consult with

lab for other options. Comparison of results is not recommended if different

agars are used because different ones grow different genus/species at different

rates at different temperatures. 

If interested in bacteria you can use sheep's blood, TSA, BCYE, R2A and other

agars at different temperatures. Again, consult with lab as there are other

options for e-coli, coliform, Legionella, and others.

Actinomycetes must be specified, plus handling is more important. Glucan and

other components are specialized and requires consultation with the lab.

Ergosterol has tremendous possibilities for exposure estimates but is limited to

research labs at this time. 

Bulk analysis for mycotoxins is limited to RealTime labs. Do not be confused by

mycotoxin analysis by other labs. It won't be analysing bulk samples, rather air

samples which is even more technical and limited.

If you want detailed species without quantity which includes both spores and

hyphae request PCR. With semi-quantification then QPCR with the  understanding

that the counting will account for the intact spores only that can be seen under

a microscope. It won't include the fungal biomass which may account for the

majority of what the PCR analyses includes.

If PCR of 26 species associated with WDB and 10 which aren't according to the

experimental EPA protocol then request MSQPCR.

If you want the above numbers compared and reported as an index number, then

request ERMI. A simplified and less expensive test is ARMI. Keep in mind that

the patent holder, EPA, no longer supports them for diagnosis, only research.

Talk with the lab you decide to use for additional specifics and instructions.

Again, you have a sensible and important question but the only answer which has

any value is long and complex.

Simply collecting a couple of samples to determine safety or exposure or other

general information is only wishful thinking.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[Guest guest]

Mayleen,

You are thinking along the right line by analyzing the air purifier

sample because it collects spores over time and becomes a bulk

sample. But lab sampling of your air purifier filter would be of

(possible) value only for mycotoxins at RealTime labs.

It sounds like you don't have $700+ to spend so, I'd not spend

your limited funds on testing. Spend it on cleanup after the

sewage backup - assuming it wasn't done completely. If you think

a lousy mold remediation was done on a previous problem then

spend your money on cleaning surfaces to remove any extra

spores which may have accumulated there.

If there is no visible mold then a tape lift is of extremely little

value. It can only identify spores at that tiny spot, which usually

isn't representative of what you are being exposed to. Same for a

swab sample.

If there is no visible mold and no moisture then the only mold

" problem " would be hidden inside walls, ceilings, floors, or other

structures. No sampling will tell you if that is true. A bulk air

sample from your purifier won't tell you where the hidden mold

may be.

If there is not water since the last remediation and if hidden mold

remains then your investigation should focus on the location of

the last remediation.

If the remediation was complete and they didn't cross-

contaminate then your symptoms while you are inside the house

are most likely from something other than mold.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Thank you Carl, I willl use your answer to guide us in what we want. The

sample

is being collected by an air purifier. Or I can do a tape lift somewhere

and

send that. There is no visible mold what so ever that we have found. I

think

maybe a shottty remediation or maybe it was remediated and I cannot

tolerate it,

making us sick. Only when I closed the place up for summer did I start

noticing

problems. Then an odor cam from one room (not using) still cannot see

any signs

of water anywhere. The sewer has back-up 3x now as recent as a couple

of days

ago. I have to go out now but be back this evening.

Talk about climate change. Last 3 years here we have had actual winters

and it

is freezing. trying to find something warm we can use.(that is why we

are

going out) .

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Carl Grimes <grimes@...>

Sick Buildings < >

Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 4:27:49 PM

Subject: Re: [] Bulk Sample Collection

Mayleen,

The answer isn't simple so those of you who want yes and no responses

only and

are upset by details and " lectures " would be best to skip the rest of this

reply.

A bulk sample is a piece of the material on which the mold is growing.

E.g. A

piece from a cardboard box, a piece of drywall, a piece of carpet, a piece

of

wood. I once had a client send the lab a moldy shoe. This is compared to

a

sample collected FROM the surface by tape lift or swab. Which is

different from

a sample collected from the air.

There is no cheaper or more expensive way to collect a bulk sample. Cut

it out

and put it in a baggie and send it overnight along with the chain of

custody

form to an EMLAP/EMPAT or A2LA accredited lab. There are a number

of excellent

labs all using the same protocol for each method. There is no " magic " lab

for

spores like for specialized medical analysis or for mycotoxins.

The difference in cost will depend on what information you want.

Because what

you want to know will determine which method(s) of analysis will be

needed.

Each method can tell you something important about the sample but not

everything. Each is strictly limited. It is important to understand what

those

are so you don't make erroneous decisions and conclusions.

ROUTINE OPTIONS:

You can have them analyse it by microscopy if you want quantification

and

identification of spores whether dead or alive by genus. (A very few

species,

occasionally).

Culturing if you want better quantification of spores by genus and some

species

but limited to the live spores.

Or, culturing by species but it will take 1-3 weeks longer and cost more.

If culturing for " ordinary " mold specify MEA agar. If for Stachybotrys or

similar specify cornmeal, cellulose, or specially treated MEA agar.

Consult with

lab for other options. Comparison of results is not recommended if

different

agars are used because different ones grow different genus/species at

different

rates at different temperatures.

If interested in bacteria you can use sheep's blood, TSA, BCYE, R2A and

other

agars at different temperatures. Again, consult with lab as there are

other

options for e-coli, coliform, Legionella, and others.

Actinomycetes must be specified, plus handling is more important.

Glucan and

other components are specialized and requires consultation with the lab.

Ergosterol has tremendous possibilities for exposure estimates but is

limited to

research labs at this time.

Bulk analysis for mycotoxins is limited to RealTime labs. Do not be

confused by

mycotoxin analysis by other labs. It won't be analysing bulk samples,

rather air

samples which is even more technical and limited.

If you want detailed species without quantity which includes both spores

and

hyphae request PCR. With semi-quantification then QPCR with the

understanding

that the counting will account for the intact spores only that can be seen

under

a microscope. It won't include the fungal biomass which may account for

the

majority of what the PCR analyses includes.

If PCR of 26 species associated with WDB and 10 which aren't according

to the

experimental EPA protocol then request MSQPCR.

If you want the above numbers compared and reported as an index

number, then

request ERMI. A simplified and less expensive test is ARMI. Keep in

mind that

the patent holder, EPA, no longer supports them for diagnosis, only

research.

Talk with the lab you decide to use for additional specifics and

instructions.

Again, you have a sensible and important question but the only answer

which has

any value is long and complex.

Simply collecting a couple of samples to determine safety or exposure or

other

general information is only wishful thinking.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

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[Guest guest]

I'd be giddy if all answers were like this: informative and without any

condescension. You'll get no argument from me!

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 12, 2010, at 3:27 PM, " Carl Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

Mayleen,

The answer isn't simple so those of you who want yes and no responses only and

are upset by details and " lectures " would be best to skip the rest of this

reply.

A bulk sample is a piece of the material on which the mold is growing. E.g. A

piece from a cardboard box, a piece of drywall, a piece of carpet, a piece of

wood. I once had a client send the lab a moldy shoe. This is compared to a

sample collected FROM the surface by tape lift or swab. Which is different from

a sample collected from the air.

There is no cheaper or more expensive way to collect a bulk sample. Cut it out

and put it in a baggie and send it overnight along with the chain of custody

form to an EMLAP/EMPAT or A2LA accredited lab. There are a number of excellent

labs all using the same protocol for each method. There is no " magic " lab for

spores like for specialized medical analysis or for mycotoxins.

The difference in cost will depend on what information you want. Because what

you want to know will determine which method(s) of analysis will be needed.

Each method can tell you something important about the sample but not

everything. Each is strictly limited. It is important to understand what those

are so you don't make erroneous decisions and conclusions.

ROUTINE OPTIONS:

You can have them analyse it by microscopy if you want quantification and

identification of spores whether dead or alive by genus. (A very few species,

occasionally).

Culturing if you want better quantification of spores by genus and some species

but limited to the live spores.

Or, culturing by species but it will take 1-3 weeks longer and cost more.

If culturing for " ordinary " mold specify MEA agar. If for Stachybotrys or

similar specify cornmeal, cellulose, or specially treated MEA agar. Consult with

lab for other options. Comparison of results is not recommended if different

agars are used because different ones grow different genus/species at different

rates at different temperatures.

If interested in bacteria you can use sheep's blood, TSA, BCYE, R2A and other

agars at different temperatures. Again, consult with lab as there are other

options for e-coli, coliform, Legionella, and others.

Actinomycetes must be specified, plus handling is more important. Glucan and

other components are specialized and requires consultation with the lab.

Ergosterol has tremendous possibilities for exposure estimates but is limited to

research labs at this time.

Bulk analysis for mycotoxins is limited to RealTime labs. Do not be confused by

mycotoxin analysis by other labs. It won't be analysing bulk samples, rather air

samples which is even more technical and limited.

If you want detailed species without quantity which includes both spores and

hyphae request PCR. With semi-quantification then QPCR with the understanding

that the counting will account for the intact spores only that can be seen under

a microscope. It won't include the fungal biomass which may account for the

majority of what the PCR analyses includes.

If PCR of 26 species associated with WDB and 10 which aren't according to the

experimental EPA protocol then request MSQPCR.

If you want the above numbers compared and reported as an index number, then

request ERMI. A simplified and less expensive test is ARMI. Keep in mind that

the patent holder, EPA, no longer supports them for diagnosis, only research.

Talk with the lab you decide to use for additional specifics and instructions.

Again, you have a sensible and important question but the only answer which has

any value is long and complex.

Simply collecting a couple of samples to determine safety or exposure or other

general information is only wishful thinking.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

(fm my Blackberry)

[Guest guest]

There is a lab listed on my web site: Assured Bio

http://www.drthrasher.org/page6.html

Re: [] Bulk Sample Collection

Thank you Dr Thrasher. I have little to no funds. Do you know of any lab

that

may do OK job that is not costly. I just want to know what is in here, how

fast

I can run within our means .......between a rock and a hard place.

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

[Guest guest]

Thank you Carl,   It does help the way you have explained it.

 

It sounds like my investigation is futile.  The place is in forclosure.  Once

again.  From what  information I have now gathered the remediation was

widespread.   The back-up was into the tub this time.  No floors here, but

the

last one was in the neigboring unit which is vacant and was so then.   It sat

there for 3 days or 4 before it was cleaned, in living room, bedsrooms, tub,

toilet, bathroom and then cleaned inappropriatey by the owners.    That was

about a month or so ago. (memory fails me). 

 

I have to move now to make matters worse do not even know how fast, since they

lied and I cannot find court documents as to how far along the forclosure is. 

I

know there is contamination because I had a couple of winter clothes in the one

room of the odor and now I cannnot breathe them. What is it, I do not know.

I am so tired I do not know where to run to any more.  This just follows us,

mold, sewer, forclosure same as the last story.  During winter just like the

last time.  Let me now forget pesticdes.

No one is going to fix this, we have to move anyway, no one to hold accountable,

so I am waisting my time and little resource best used leaving to who knows

where again ???? 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 4:41:38 PM

Subject: Re: [] Bulk Sample Collection

 

Mayleen,

You are thinking along the right line by analyzing the air purifier

sample because it collects spores over time and becomes a bulk

sample. But lab sampling of your air purifier filter would be of

(possible) value only for mycotoxins at RealTime labs.

It sounds like you don't have $700+ to spend so, I'd not spend

your limited funds on testing. Spend it on cleanup after the

sewage backup - assuming it wasn't done completely. If you think

a lousy mold remediation was done on a previous problem then

spend your money on cleaning surfaces to remove any extra

spores which may have accumulated there.

If there is no visible mold then a tape lift is of extremely little

value. It can only identify spores at that tiny spot, which usually

isn't representative of what you are being exposed to. Same for a

swab sample.

If there is no visible mold and no moisture then the only mold

" problem " would be hidden inside walls, ceilings, floors, or other

structures. No sampling will tell you if that is true. A bulk air

sample from your purifier won't tell you where the hidden mold

may be.

If there is not water since the last remediation and if hidden mold

remains then your investigation should focus on the location of

the last remediation.

If the remediation was complete and they didn't cross-

contaminate then your symptoms while you are inside the house

are most likely from something other than mold.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

Thank you so very much. You are always so helpful to me. 

 

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

________________________________

From: " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...>

Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 7:18:34 PM

Subject: Re: [] Bulk Sample Collection

 

There is a lab listed on my web site: Assured Bio

http://www.drthrasher.org/page6.html

Re: [] Bulk Sample Collection

Thank you Dr Thrasher. I have little to no funds. Do you know of any lab that

may do OK job that is not costly. I just want to know what is in here, how fast

I can run within our means .......between a rock and a hard place.

God Bless !!

dragonflymcs

Mayleen

[Guest guest]

Why do you want to " know what's there " ?

Mold is mold. Water damage is damage. Fix it and save your money. Unless you are

involved in litigation, then you can get agreement on the fact that it IS mold.

Unless you need confirmation for some special medical purpose, you can get

agreement that it IS mold.

You can assume their might be other contaminants, bacteria etc.

If you must, get a microscopy from a lab that will tell you if it is growth or

not (or settled or disturbed debris), in addition to the species/genera ID.

The cultures and PCR all cost way too much for a general understanding of what

is present.

Remember the rule: ask what you want to know, then decide if samplig results

will increase the power of your decision-making. In your case, I think not. Save

your money for cleaning.

>

> What is the Proper way to collect a bulk sample for testing ( am using my air

> filter) ?   Which is least expensive to do ?  

>  

> Mayleen

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Frustration often sounds like condescension. I apologize if my recent posts are

frustrated.

The people asking questions are not listening. And some of them have been around

long enough to know the answers.

>

> Mayleen,

>

> The answer isn't simple so those of you who want yes and no responses only and

are upset by details and " lectures " would be best to skip the rest of this

reply.

>