Guest guest Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 Can anone tell me the benefit of the VCS test for re-exposure if any??? Please God Bless !! dragonflymcs Mayleen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 Mayleen, There is a benefit if you previously " failed " VCS after a biotoxin exposure and later " passed " it either because of treatment or your body eventually cleared itself (sometimes taking years). Then, if you are exposed again you would then " fail " the VCS confirming a re-exposure. However, if you never " cleared " the previous exposure then a new exposure won't change the VCS results. BTW, I deliberately put the words passed and failed in quotes " " because there is no pass or fail to VCS. The results are indictors included in a more comprehensive assessment. When I do an environmental assessment the VCS is often as much an educational tool as it is a diagnostic tool. Once you gain familiarity with it the personal history becomes just as accurate and revealing. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- Can anone tell me the benefit of the VCS test for re-exposure if any??? Please God Bless !! dragonflymcs Mayleen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 It could mean several things, Sue. One is that he doesn't have the genetic structure which prevents or delays the immune system waste products from being eliminated from the body after exposure to biological toxins (which sometimes includes mold). It could mean there are other causes for the failure of the immune system waste products being eliminated. Or, it could mean the waste products are being eliminated but his condition is still caused by another mechanism involving mold. Or maybe something else. Much more information is needed to reduce the possibilities. VCS is not definitive for an overall, comprehensive diagnostic. It is one (screening) tool in the toolbox, each of which reveals additional pieces of the puzzle. Then the set of data and other information but be assembled and interpreted. For example, one client " failed " when they had no history of mold issues and was currently concerned only about pet dander and dust. They had a problem with their retina which affected the ability to see the lines on the chart. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- HI All, and my very sick son " passed " the VCS test but " failed " a number of the other shoemaker tests, does that mean mold isn't his main problem, or does it just show 'one size doesn't fit all " or.... ???? never been to shoemaker, since he is afraid of flying, can't take benzos to allow a flight (had a bad reaction on them one time, that was the last), so will never know... sue v. >Mayleen, > >There is a benefit if you previously " failed " VCS after a biotoxin >exposure and later " passed " it either because of treatment or ---------- The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. ---- File information ----------- File: DEFAULT.BMP Date: 15 Jun 2009, 23:10 Size: 358 bytes. Type: Unknown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 hi carl, i hope you didn't think i was trying to get a diagnosis! i was just agreeing that it is all very complicated. my C has the dreaded genotype, so do i but i am the picture of almost perfect health, i think i would be perfectly healthy if not worn to the bone by all of THIS....but i grew up only at the beginning of the chemical onslaught, before the emf onslaught, mostly missed the frankenfoods onslaught, and so forth... sue v. >It could mean several things, Sue. One is that he doesn't have >the genetic structure which prevents or delays the immune >system waste products from being eliminated from the body after Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 Mayleen, I'm not sure what you mean by cumulative effect. If it means it takes a certain amount of time for the VCS to indicate the condition then I don't know the answer. And it's not like the VCS shows worse results with more exposure. Once triggered (whatever that means), the VCS results will degrade. Dr Shoemaker's original paper was based on people who were showing illness when in a water damaged building. He removed them and about 75% got better. Of the 25% who didn't he administered cholestyramene and most got better. He put them back into the building and all got sick again. The ones that got better the first time also got better the second time. The ones who stayed ill the first time also stayed ill the second time until they received treatment. The VCS testing tracked the same way. BTW, as I know you are aware but others may not be, colestyramine doesn't work for all people all the time. And it is a prescription medication requiring a doctors involvement. Does this help? Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- Thank youCarl, I have never taken the test.Really am not familiar with the results it can give.Can you tell me if there would be a benefit now or like you said maybe a benefit in the future as a cumulative effect. God Bless !! dragonflymcs Mayleen ________________________________ From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 4:44:42 PM Subject: Re: [] VCS testing Mayleen, There is a benefit if you previously " failed " VCS after a biotoxin exposure and later " passed " it either because of treatment or your body eventually cleared itself (sometimes taking years). Then, if you are exposed again you would then " fail " the VCS confirming a re-exposure. However, if you never " cleared " the previous exposure then a new exposure won't change the VCS results. BTW, I deliberately put the words passed and failed in quotes " " because there is no pass or fail to VCS. The results are indictors included in a more comprehensive assessment. When I do an environmental assessment the VCS is often as much an educational tool as it is a diagnostic tool. Once you gain familiarity with it the personal history becomes just as accurate and revealing. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ---------- The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. ---- File information ----------- File: DEFAULT.BMP Date: 15 Jun 2009, 23:10 Size: 358 bytes. Type: Unknown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 Thank you Carl,  I have never taken the test.  Really am not familiar with the results it can give.  Can you tell me if there would be a benefit now or like you said maybe a benefit in the future as a cumulative effect.    God Bless !! dragonflymcs Mayleen ________________________________ From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 4:44:42 PM Subject: Re: [] VCS testing  Mayleen, There is a benefit if you previously " failed " VCS after a biotoxin exposure and later " passed " it either because of treatment or your body eventually cleared itself (sometimes taking years). Then, if you are exposed again you would then " fail " the VCS confirming a re-exposure. However, if you never " cleared " the previous exposure then a new exposure won't change the VCS results. BTW, I deliberately put the words passed and failed in quotes " " because there is no pass or fail to VCS. The results are indictors included in a more comprehensive assessment. When I do an environmental assessment the VCS is often as much an educational tool as it is a diagnostic tool. Once you gain familiarity with it the personal history becomes just as accurate and revealing. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 Thank you Carl, By cumuative effect I mean if I " failed the test " = exposure if I pass = either I did not have or healed if re-exposed = failed, so I could accumulate results that can maybe one day tell me re-exposure, but not now cause I have never had it. It can tell me now if I have biotoxin illness though (with exceptions of a few).   Yes it does help. Now do you know of any tests regular Dr can order at a none specialized lab for any wdb illness? God Bless !! dragonflymcs Mayleen ________________________________ From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 7:24:53 PM Subject: Re: [] VCS testing  Mayleen, I'm not sure what you mean by cumulative effect. If it means it takes a certain amount of time for the VCS to indicate the condition then I don't know the answer. And it's not like the VCS shows worse results with more exposure. Once triggered (whatever that means), the VCS results will degrade. Dr Shoemaker's original paper was based on people who were showing illness when in a water damaged building. He removed them and about 75% got better. Of the 25% who didn't he administered cholestyramene and most got better. He put them back into the building and all got sick again. The ones that got better the first time also got better the second time. The ones who stayed ill the first time also stayed ill the second time until they received treatment. The VCS testing tracked the same way. BTW, as I know you are aware but others may not be, colestyramine doesn't work for all people all the time. And it is a prescription medication requiring a doctors involvement. Does this help? Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 Thanks for the clarification. I was accumulating exposures and you meant test results. A history of results associated with other factors cab be very useful because it finds more pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. This could be compared to Barb's use of settling plates to help guide some of her decisions. You all know my concerns about mold sampling and my admitted disdain for settling plates. However, if used as information along with other information over time to help in making choices then they can be quite useful and legitimate. Another example is with ERMI. Tbe index number by itself is essentially useless and often misleading. So why would anyone use it and have any credibility? Well, Dr Shoemaker does because he has established some associations with his medical diagnostics which are useful for him with his patience. But it is limited to that and that alone. National Jewish has a similar program with their AirCare product which uses a version of ERMI called ARMI (12 vs the 36 for ERMI). They claim it works when based on the historical data from their occupational investigations. They have a study to support their claim but its now been three years without publication because they can't get these associations to work any better than Vesper can with ERMI. Finally, to answer your last question, I don't know of any medical lab test which by itself can provide the answers you desire. They, and environmental testing all are dependent upon history, context, current conditions and a lot of informed experience and judgment for an initial diagnosis. Which then is challenged by a treatment protocol. If it works, great! If it doesn't then adjustments are made. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC (fm my Blackberry) Re: [] VCS testing  Mayleen, I'm not sure what you mean by cumulative effect. If it means it takes a certain amount of time for the VCS to indicate the condition then I don't know the answer. And it's not like the VCS shows worse results with more exposure. Once triggered (whatever that means), the VCS results will degrade. Dr Shoemaker's original paper was based on people who were showing illness when in a water damaged building. He removed them and about 75% got better. Of the 25% who didn't he administered cholestyramene and most got better. He put them back into the building and all got sick again. The ones that got better the first time also got better the second time. The ones who stayed ill the first time also stayed ill the second time until they received treatment. The VCS testing tracked the same way. BTW, as I know you are aware but others may not be, colestyramine doesn't work for all people all the time. And it is a prescription medication requiring a doctors involvement. Does this help? Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 Thank you very much Carl.  I had an HP panel done. Positive then PF set in, then Bronchiectasis. Then Neuro-Cognitive positive for Brain Damage. I wanted to run more tests but he needs guidance. I have little to no knowledge here because never been seen or treated. I do not think there is one site that can help guide a physicine. Puzzle pieces all over the place, then it depends on syptoms and exposure so I can see there is not really a clear answer to my question, is there?   I am fustrated trying to guide 1 Dr who is listening but is not educated on this. I am trying to gather info for him but cannot find what to do? God Bless !! dragonflymcs Mayleen ________________________________ From: Carl Grimes <grimes@...> Sick Buildings < > Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 11:42:12 PM Subject: Re: [] VCS testing  Thanks for the clarification. I was accumulating exposures and you meant test results. A history of results associated with other factors cab be very useful because it finds more pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. This could be compared to Barb's use of settling plates to help guide some of her decisions. You all know my concerns about mold sampling and my admitted disdain for settling plates. However, if used as information along with other information over time to help in making choices then they can be quite useful and legitimate. Another example is with ERMI. Tbe index number by itself is essentially useless and often misleading. So why would anyone use it and have any credibility? Well, Dr Shoemaker does because he has established some associations with his medical diagnostics which are useful for him with his patience. But it is limited to that and that alone. National Jewish has a similar program with their AirCare product which uses a version of ERMI called ARMI (12 vs the 36 for ERMI). They claim it works when based on the historical data from their occupational investigations. They have a study to support their claim but its now been three years without publication because they can't get these associations to work any better than Vesper can with ERMI. Finally, to answer your last question, I don't know of any medical lab test which by itself can provide the answers you desire. They, and environmental testing all are dependent upon history, context, current conditions and a lot of informed experience and judgment for an initial diagnosis. Which then is challenged by a treatment protocol. If it works, great! If it doesn't then adjustments are made. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC (fm my Blackberry) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2010 Report Share Posted December 8, 2010 It is rare when a patient can educate their physician. Not only because of their arrogance (frequently) but we don't know how to speak their language. We don't know what type and quality of evidence is meaningful to them. It is often better to find a doctor who will listen and then study, who will ask you questions about your experience and then figure out how to better diagnose. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- Thank you very much Carl. I had an HP panel done. Positive then PF set in, then Bronchiectasis. ThenNeuro-Cognitive positive for Brain Damage. I wanted to run more tests but he needs guidance. I havelittle to no knowledge here because never been seen or treated. I do not think there is one site that can help guide a physicine. Puzzle pieces all over the place, then it depends on syptoms and exposure so I can see there is not really a clear answer to my question, is there? I am fustrated trying to guide 1 Dr who is listening but is not educated on this. I am trying to gather info for him but cannot find what to do? God Bless !! dragonflymcs Mayleen ________________________________ From: Carl Grimes <grimes@...> Sick Buildings < > Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 11:42:12 PM Subject: Re: [] VCS testing Thanks for the clarification. I was accumulating exposures and you meant test results. A history of results associated with other factors cab be very useful because it finds more pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. This could be compared to Barb's use of settling plates to help guide some of her decisions. You all know my concerns about mold sampling and my admitted disdain for settling plates. However, if used as information along with other information over time to help in making choices then they can be quite useful and legitimate. Another example is with ERMI. Tbe index number by itself is essentially useless and often misleading. So why would anyone use it and have any credibility? Well, Dr Shoemaker does because he has established some associations with his medical diagnostics which are useful for him with his patience. But it is limited to that and that alone. National Jewish has a similar program with their AirCare product which uses a version of ERMI called ARMI (12 vs the 36 for ERMI). They claim it works when based on the historical data from their occupational investigations. They have a study to support their claim but its now been three years without publication because they can't get these associations to work any better than Vesper can with ERMI. Finally, to answer your last question, I don't know of any medical lab test which by itself can provide the answers you desire. They, and environmental testing all are dependent upon history, context, current conditions and a lot of informed experience and judgment for an initial diagnosis. Which then is challenged by a treatment protocol. If it works, great! If it doesn't then adjustments are made. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC (fm my Blackberry) ---------- The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. ---- File information ----------- File: DEFAULT.BMP Date: 15 Jun 2009, 23:10 Size: 358 bytes. Type: Unknown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 This is why I was constantly badgering the Academy of Family Physicians organization in Kansas about this time last year. I was able to communicate with the person below the Director. They told me that they weren't offering continuing education credits in illnesses such as ours BECAUSE THE PHYSICIANS weren't asking for them.They saw no need for such courses. I explained they are mistreating and misdiagnosing patients and doing more harm than good. ( Such as what happened to me when I went to a place that claimed to be experts and caused my heart attack) I also suggested on several sites to call and make your voice heard to this organization. If we don't step up and act on our behalf, then who is going to do it? At the time I was only aware of CFS and not the mold component. I was able to convince them to speak with Dr. Friedman, who had an approved CDC course in CFS. I guess I should hop on the bandwagon again and do more. Kathi > > It is rare when a patient can educate their physician. Not only > because of their arrogance (frequently) but we don't know how to > speak their language. We don't know what type and quality of > evidence is meaningful to them. It is often better to find a doctor > who will listen and then study, who will ask you questions about > your experience and then figure out how to better diagnose. > > Carl Grimes > Healthy Habitats LLC > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 Carl,  After many many a Dr about 30 I would say and some that have nearly killed me, I have found one that listens. He does ask me questions and has gone to computer with me pulled up the paper CIRS-WDB  and read. Saved it under my name. Whe he askes me about treatment I am lost. He has the paper now and maybe he has read some more. I wanted to have more to give him when I went back. I have shared several papers with him and he does read them. Luckily his office is also OK for me to be a little while, so long as his patients are gone. He has questions I cannot answer from a Dr point of view. Is there someone he can speak to, he seems to want to help, although there is much he cannot do because it is not his specialty (lungs) ?  God Bless !! dragonflymcs Mayleen ________________________________ From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:37:50 AM Subject: Re: [] VCS testing  It is rare when a patient can educate their physician. Not only because of their arrogance (frequently) but we don't know how to speak their language. We don't know what type and quality of evidence is meaningful to them. It is often better to find a doctor who will listen and then study, who will ask you questions about your experience and then figure out how to better diagnose. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 Mayleen, The paper you gave him has all the studies including the ones disputing the connection between WDB and health. I can talk with him about the short list of studies so he doesn't have to respond to them all. Give your doctor my contact information, which you have. Or at least my e-mail. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- Carl, After many many a Dr about 30 I would say and some that have nearly killed me, I have found one that listens. He does ask me questions and has gone to computer with me pulled up the paper CIRS-WDB and read. Saved it under my name. Whe he askes me about treatment I am lost. He has the paper now and maybe he has read some more. I wanted to have more to give him when I went back. I have shared several papers with him and he does read them. Luckily his office is also OK for me to be a little while, so long as his patients are gone. He has questions I cannot answer from a Dr point of view. Is there someone he can speak to, he seems to want to help, although there is much he cannot do because it is not his specialty (lungs) ? God Bless !! dragonflymcs Mayleen ________________________________ From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 2:37:50 AM Subject: Re: [] VCS testing It is rare when a patient can educate their physician. Not only because of their arrogance (frequently) but we don't know how to speak their language. We don't know what type and quality of evidence is meaningful to them. It is often better to find a doctor who will listen and then study, who will ask you questions about your experience and then figure out how to better diagnose. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ---------- The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. ---- File information ----------- File: DEFAULT.BMP Date: 15 Jun 2009, 23:10 Size: 358 bytes. Type: Unknown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2010 Report Share Posted December 9, 2010 Thank you so very much Carl. I do not see him again until next month but will do so.   God Bless !! dragonflymcs Mayleen ________________________________ From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 5:24:37 PM Subject: Re: [] VCS testing  Mayleen, The paper you gave him has all the studies including the ones disputing the connection between WDB and health. I can talk with him about the short list of studies so he doesn't have to respond to them all. Give your doctor my contact information, which you have. Or at least my e-mail. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.