RE: Overproduction of creatine

[Guest guest]

>

> Subject: Re: Overproduction of creatine

> To: Supertraining

> Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 9:13 PM

> Sir.

> My yearly physicals show I have a high creatinine

> level. Not creatine, creatinine. I had sonagrams where the

> technician told me, my bladder and kidneys were superb.

> Dr Genella found nothing in the textbooks that spoke

> negatively

> concerning high creatinine. My Physician now considers the

> levels to be

> normal for me.

> Perhaps Dr. Ralph would expound if he would be kind

> enough to interject.

>

> Carson Wood.

> Westbrook, Me USA.

>

>

> Overproduction of creatine

>

>

> Has anyone ever heard of a condition where the body

> produces too much

> creatine or doesn't break it down like its supposed to

> creating an

> overabundance of creatine in the muscle. Any information

> or direction

> would be much appreciated.

>

> =============================

Concerning the post on over production of creatine. I believe that the

physicians are referring to creatinine. Creatine is not normally measured in

the clinical labs and serves no particular clinical use. Creatinine on the

other hand is a very important medical test which is used to evaluate kidney

function.

The following excerpts might be of help in understanding the difference between

creatine and creatinine:

**********************************

" Creatinine is a metabolic product of creatine and phosphocreatine, both of

which are found almost exclusively in muscle.

Thus, creatinine production is proportional to muscle mass and varies little

from day to day.

However, production can change over longer periods of time if there is a change

in muscle mass.

Age- and gender-associated differences in creatinine production are also largely

attributable to differences in muscle mass.[4]

Although diet ordinarily accounts for a relatively small proportion of overall

creatinine excretion, it is another source of variability in serum creatinine

levels.

Creatine from ingested meat is converted to creatinine and can be the source for

up to 30% of total creatinine excretion. Thus, variability in meat intake can

also contribute to variability in serum creatinine levels.

The conversion of creatine to creatinine can occur with cooking. Because

creatinine is readily absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract, ingesting cooked

meat can lead to a rapid increase in serum creatinine levels.[4]

Besides variations in lean body mass, meat in the diet changes creatinine

excretion: when the diet is creatine-free, creatinine excretion falls about

15%.[230] The fact that creatinine excretion does not decrease even more with

meat-free diets reflects the fact that creatine production is stimulated by low

protein or low creatine diets.[231]

Brenner: Brenner and Rector's The Kidney, 8th ed.

********************************************************

Ed, with regards to your high levels of creatinine the above will probably

explain why you had abnormally high levels of creatinine.

As I stated in a previous post most athletes and in particular older athletes

fall outside the norm and thus are abnormal.

The average physician sees very few athletes of any age let alone older

athletes. Most individuals seek medical attention only when they are sick.

On the other hand being an athlete does not make someone immune to illness and

it is good that your physician sought to find out if there was any evidence of

kidney disease as the cause of he elevated creatinine.

As for the youngster with an elevated creatinine I came across this case:

*******************************

Objective:

To report a case of co-ingestion of methanol and nitromethane in a child in

order to heighten the awareness of false elevation of serum creatinine from

nitromethane ingestion.

Design:

Case report.

Setting:

Pediatric intensive care unit.

Patient:

A 4-yr-old previously healthy girl ingested an unknown quantity of “Blue

Thunder†model-engine fuel, which consisted of methanol and nitromethane. The

patient was treated with fomepizole for methanol ingestion using elevated

creatinine level as a reason for treatment.

Results:

The patient was asymptomatic but her creatinine level increased ten-fold (from

0.4 mg/dL to 4 mg/dL) within 6 hrs. Blood urea nitrogen, anion gap, and osmolar

gap remained within normal limits. When the serum creatinine level was measured

with enzymatic method instead of Jaffe's method, a normal creatinine level was

obtained. The falsely elevated creatinine level was due to nitromethane.

Conclusion:

The falsely elevated serum creatinine levels due to nitromethane ingestion can

lead to unnecessary therapeutic interventions. We intend to heighten awareness

of this potential misstep by reporting this case.

*********

Does this young boy have access to model engine fuel (nitromethane)?

Increased muscle mass would never cause a doubling or tripling of he creatinine

levels.

You never know what kids will sniff or experiment with these days.

Ralph Giarnella MD

Southington Ct USA

[Guest guest]

Thanks for all of your help Dr. Giarnella.

Just to add on a couple of interesting things. The parents originally took

their kid in because he would cramp up just going on walks. That's when they

found the high creatinine levels. He was also having some compensation issues

as well that they attributed to the cramping. They started taking him to a

physical therapist which they said seemed to help a lot. Then they started

bringing him in to me to work on his running mechanics and overall movement

patterns. Since i have been working on his motor patterns and strength training

he doesn't seem to be cramping up as much and doesn't seem to be compensating as

much either.

Could the high creatinine levels be contributing to his cramping? If so, since

creatinine is a byproduct of creatine metabolism would strength training be

counterproductive? We're seeing great results but i want to make sure i'm not

harming him either.

Thanks,

Krzyminski

Indianapolis,IN

====================================

To: Supertraining@...: ragiarn@...: Thu, 2 Oct 2008

13:24:14 -0700Subject: Re: Overproduction of creatine

> From: Carson Wood

> Subject: Re: Overproduction of creatine>

To: Supertraining > Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 9:13 PM>

Sir.> My yearly physicals show I have a high creatinine> level. Not creatine,

creatinine. I had sonagrams where the> technician told me, my bladder and

kidneys were superb.> Dr Genella found nothing in the textbooks that spoke>

negatively > concerning high creatinine. My Physician now considers the> levels

to be > normal for me.> Perhaps Dr. Ralph would expound if he would be kind>

enough to interject.> > Carson Wood.> Westbrook, Me USA.> > > ----- Original

Message ----- > > To:

<Supertraining >> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 3:29 PM>

Subject: Overproduction of creatine> > > Has anyone ever heard

of a condition where the body> produces too much> creatine or doesn't break it

down like its supposed to> creating an> overabundance of creatine in the muscle.

Any information> or direction> would be much appreciated.> >

=============================Concerning the post on over production of creatine.

I believe that the physicians are referring to creatinine. Creatine is not

normally measured in the clinical labs and serves no particular clinical use.

Creatinine on the other hand is a very important medical test which is used to

evaluate kidney function.The following excerpts might be of help in

understanding the difference between creatine and

creatinine:********************************** " Creatinine is a metabolic product

of creatine and phosphocreatine, both of which are found almost exclusively in

muscle. Thus, creatinine production is proportional to muscle mass and varies

little from day to day. However, production can change over longer periods of

time if there is a change in muscle mass. Age- and gender-associated differences

in creatinine production are also largely attributable to differences in muscle

mass.[4] Although diet ordinarily accounts for a relatively small proportion of

overall creatinine excretion, it is another source of variability in serum

creatinine levels. Creatine from ingested meat is converted to creatinine and

can be the source for up to 30% of total creatinine excretion. Thus, variability

in meat intake can also contribute to variability in serum creatinine levels.

The conversion of creatine to creatinine can occur with cooking. Because

creatinine is readily absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract, ingesting cooked

meat can lead to a rapid increase in serum creatinine levels.[4]Besides

variations in lean body mass, meat in the diet changes creatinine excretion:

when the diet is creatine-free, creatinine excretion falls about 15%.[230] The

fact that creatinine excretion does not decrease even more with meat-free diets

reflects the fact that creatine production is stimulated by low protein or low

creatine diets.[231]Brenner: Brenner and Rector's The Kidney, 8th

ed.********************************************************Ed, with regards to

your high levels of creatinine the above will probably explain why you had

abnormally high levels of creatinine. As I stated in a previous post most

athletes and in particular older athletes fall outside the norm and thus are

abnormal. The average physician sees very few athletes of any age let alone

older athletes. Most individuals seek medical attention only when they are sick.

On the other hand being an athlete does not make someone immune to illness and

it is good that your physician sought to find out if there was any evidence of

kidney disease as the cause of he elevated creatinine.As for the youngster with

an elevated creatinine I came across this

case:*******************************Objective:To report a case of co-ingestion

of methanol and nitromethane in a child in order to heighten the awareness of

false elevation of serum creatinine from nitromethane ingestion.Design:Case

report.Setting:Pediatric intensive care unit.Patient:A 4-yr-old previously

healthy girl ingested an unknown quantity of “Blue Thunder” model-engine fuel,

which consisted of methanol and nitromethane. The patient was treated with

fomepizole for methanol ingestion using elevated creatinine level as a reason

for treatment.Results:The patient was asymptomatic but her creatinine level

increased ten-fold (from 0.4 mg/dL to 4 mg/dL) within 6 hrs. Blood urea

nitrogen, anion gap, and osmolar gap remained within normal limits. When the

serum creatinine level was measured with enzymatic method instead of Jaffe's

method, a normal creatinine level was obtained. The falsely elevated creatinine

level was due to nitromethane.Conclusion:The falsely elevated serum creatinine

levels due to nitromethane ingestion can lead to unnecessary therapeutic

interventions. We intend to heighten awareness of this potential misstep by

reporting this case.*********Does this young boy have access to model engine

fuel (nitromethane)?Increased muscle mass would never cause a doubling or

tripling of he creatinine levels. You never know what kids will sniff or

experiment with these days.Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA

==========================

[Guest guest]

> From: Carson Wood

> > Subject: Re:

> Overproduction of creatine> To:

> Supertraining > Date: Wednesday, October

> 1, 2008, 9:13 PM> Sir.> My yearly physicals show I

> have a high creatinine> level. Not creatine, creatinine.

> I had sonagrams where the> technician told me, my bladder

> and kidneys were superb.> Dr Genella found nothing in the

> textbooks that spoke> negatively > concerning high

> creatinine. My Physician now considers the> levels to be

> > normal for me.> Perhaps Dr. Ralph would expound if

> he would be kind> enough to interject.> > Carson

> Wood.> Westbrook, Me USA.> > > ----- Original

> Message ----- > From: " headcmu03 "

> > To:

> <Supertraining >> Sent: Wednesday,

> October 01, 2008 3:29 PM> Subject:

> Overproduction of creatine> > > Has anyone ever

> heard of a condition where the body> produces too

> much> creatine or doesn't break it down like its

> supposed to> creating an> overabundance of creatine in

> the muscle. Any information> or direction> would be

> much appreciated.> >

> =============================Concerning the post on over

> production of creatine. I believe that the physicians are

> referring to creatinine. Creatine is not normally measured

> in the clinical labs and serves no particular clinical use.

> Creatinine on the other hand is a very important medical

> test which is used to evaluate kidney function.The following

> excerpts might be of help in understanding the difference

> between creatine and

> creatinine:********************************** " Creatinine

> is a metabolic product of creatine and phosphocreatine, both

> of which are found almost exclusively in muscle. Thus,

> creatinine production is proportional to muscle mass and

> varies little from day to day. However, production can

> change over longer periods of time if there is a change in

> muscle mass. Age- and gender-associated differences in

> creatinine production are also largely attributable to

> differences in muscle mass.[4] Although diet ordinarily

> accounts for a relatively small proportion of overall

> creatinine excretion, it is another source of variability in

> serum creatinine levels. Creatine from ingested meat is

> converted to creatinine and can be the source for up to 30%

> of total creatinine excretion. Thus, variability in meat

> intake can also contribute to variability in serum

> creatinine levels. The conversion of creatine to creatinine

> can occur with cooking. Because creatinine is readily

> absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract, ingesting cooked

> meat can lead to a rapid increase in serum creatinine

> levels.[4]Besides variations in lean body mass, meat in the

> diet changes creatinine excretion: when the diet is

> creatine-free, creatinine excretion falls about 15%.[230]

> The fact that creatinine excretion does not decrease even

> more with meat-free diets reflects the fact that creatine

> production is stimulated by low protein or low creatine

> diets.[231]Brenner: Brenner and Rector's The Kidney, 8th

> ed.********************************************************Ed,

> with regards to your high levels of creatinine the above

> will probably explain why you had abnormally high levels of

> creatinine. As I stated in a previous post most athletes and

> in particular older athletes fall outside the norm and thus

> are abnormal. The average physician sees very few athletes

> of any age let alone older athletes. Most individuals seek

> medical attention only when they are sick. On the other hand

> being an athlete does not make someone immune to illness and

> it is good that your physician sought to find out if there

> was any evidence of kidney disease as the cause of he

> elevated creatinine.As for the youngster with an elevated

> creatinine I came across this

> case:*******************************Objective:To report a

> case of co-ingestion of methanol and nitromethane in a child

> in order to heighten the awareness of false elevation of

> serum creatinine from nitromethane ingestion.Design:Case

> report.Setting:Pediatric intensive care unit.Patient:A

> 4-yr-old previously healthy girl ingested an unknown

> quantity of “Blue Thunder†model-engine fuel, which

> consisted of methanol and nitromethane. The patient was

> treated with fomepizole for methanol ingestion using

> elevated creatinine level as a reason for

> treatment.Results:The patient was asymptomatic but her

> creatinine level increased ten-fold (from 0.4 mg/dL to 4

> mg/dL) within 6 hrs. Blood urea nitrogen, anion gap, and

> osmolar gap remained within normal limits. When the serum

> creatinine level was measured with enzymatic method instead

> of Jaffe's method, a normal creatinine level was

> obtained. The falsely elevated creatinine level was due to

> nitromethane.Conclusion:The falsely elevated serum

> creatinine levels due to nitromethane ingestion can lead to

> unnecessary therapeutic interventions. We intend to heighten

> awareness of this potential misstep by reporting this

> case.*********Does this young boy have access to model

> engine fuel (nitromethane)?Increased muscle mass would never

> cause a doubling or tripling of he creatinine levels. You

> never know what kids will sniff or experiment with these

> days.Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA

>

>

>

> ==========================

>

> ------------------------------------

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>

>

[Guest guest]

Here is a link to an interesting series (4-5) of articles on muscle

cramps.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/muscle-cramps-part-1-theories-and.html

It challenges many of the current theories. Whether or not these guys

are always correct or not, they do a good job of exploring issues of

interest to athletes. They also tend to answer comments/questions. To

follow a multi-part article such as this one, just go to the bottom of

the comments (if there are any) and select " newer post " or " older

post " to return to an earlier article in the series.

Bob Dannegger

Raleigh, NC

> From: Carson Wood

> > > Subject: Re:

> > Overproduction of creatine> To:

> > Supertraining > Date: Wednesday, October

> > 1, 2008, 9:13 PM> Sir.> My yearly physicals show I

> > have a high creatinine> level. Not creatine, creatinine.

> > I had sonagrams where the> technician told me, my bladder

> > and kidneys were superb.> Dr Genella found nothing in the

> > textbooks that spoke> negatively > concerning high

> > creatinine. My Physician now considers the> levels to be

> > > normal for me.> Perhaps Dr. Ralph would expound if

> > he would be kind> enough to interject.> > Carson

> > Wood.> Westbrook, Me USA.> > > ----- Original

> > Message ----- > From: " headcmu03 "

> > > To:

> > <Supertraining >> Sent: Wednesday,

> > October 01, 2008 3:29 PM> Subject:

> > Overproduction of creatine> > > Has anyone ever

> > heard of a condition where the body> produces too

> > much> creatine or doesn't break it down like its

> > supposed to> creating an> overabundance of creatine in

> > the muscle. Any information> or direction> would be

> > much appreciated.> >

> > =============================Concerning the post on over

> > production of creatine. I believe that the physicians are

> > referring to creatinine. Creatine is not normally measured

> > in the clinical labs and serves no particular clinical use.

> > Creatinine on the other hand is a very important medical

> > test which is used to evaluate kidney function.The following

> > excerpts might be of help in understanding the difference

> > between creatine and

> > creatinine:********************************** " Creatinine

> > is a metabolic product of creatine and phosphocreatine, both

> > of which are found almost exclusively in muscle. Thus,

> > creatinine production is proportional to muscle mass and

> > varies little from day to day. However, production can

> > change over longer periods of time if there is a change in

> > muscle mass. Age- and gender-associated differences in

> > creatinine production are also largely attributable to

> > differences in muscle mass.[4] Although diet ordinarily

> > accounts for a relatively small proportion of overall

> > creatinine excretion, it is another source of variability in

> > serum creatinine levels. Creatine from ingested meat is

> > converted to creatinine and can be the source for up to 30%

> > of total creatinine excretion. Thus, variability in meat

> > intake can also contribute to variability in serum

> > creatinine levels. The conversion of creatine to creatinine

> > can occur with cooking. Because creatinine is readily

> > absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract, ingesting cooked

> > meat can lead to a rapid increase in serum creatinine

> > levels.[4]Besides variations in lean body mass, meat in the

> > diet changes creatinine excretion: when the diet is

> > creatine-free, creatinine excretion falls about 15%.[230]

> > The fact that creatinine excretion does not decrease even

> > more with meat-free diets reflects the fact that creatine

> > production is stimulated by low protein or low creatine

> > diets.[231]Brenner: Brenner and Rector's The Kidney, 8th

> > ed.********************************************************Ed,

> > with regards to your high levels of creatinine the above

> > will probably explain why you had abnormally high levels of

> > creatinine. As I stated in a previous post most athletes and

> > in particular older athletes fall outside the norm and thus

> > are abnormal. The average physician sees very few athletes

> > of any age let alone older athletes. Most individuals seek

> > medical attention only when they are sick. On the other hand

> > being an athlete does not make someone immune to illness and

> > it is good that your physician sought to find out if there

> > was any evidence of kidney disease as the cause of he

> > elevated creatinine.As for the youngster with an elevated

> > creatinine I came across this

> > case:*******************************Objective:To report a

> > case of co-ingestion of methanol and nitromethane in a child

> > in order to heighten the awareness of false elevation of

> > serum creatinine from nitromethane ingestion.Design:Case

> > report.Setting:Pediatric intensive care unit.Patient:A

> > 4-yr-old previously healthy girl ingested an unknown

> > quantity of “Blue Thunder†model-engine fuel, which

> > consisted of methanol and nitromethane. The patient was

> > treated with fomepizole for methanol ingestion using

> > elevated creatinine level as a reason for

> > treatment.Results:The patient was asymptomatic but her

> > creatinine level increased ten-fold (from 0.4 mg/dL to 4

> > mg/dL) within 6 hrs. Blood urea nitrogen, anion gap, and

> > osmolar gap remained within normal limits. When the serum

> > creatinine level was measured with enzymatic method instead

> > of Jaffe's method, a normal creatinine level was

> > obtained. The falsely elevated creatinine level was due to

> > nitromethane.Conclusion:The falsely elevated serum

> > creatinine levels due to nitromethane ingestion can lead to

> > unnecessary therapeutic interventions. We intend to heighten

> > awareness of this potential misstep by reporting this

> > case.*********Does this young boy have access to model

> > engine fuel (nitromethane)?Increased muscle mass would never

> > cause a doubling or tripling of he creatinine levels. You

> > never know what kids will sniff or experiment with these

> > days.Ralph Giarnella MD Southington Ct USA

> >

> >

> >

> > ==========================

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Modify/cancel your subscription at:

> >

> > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups

> >

> > Sign all letters with full name & city of residence if

> > you

> > wish them to be published!

> >

> >