Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 I assume you are testing for moisture content. If there is elevated moisture content (greater than 14 %) you probably have a problem. If so a wall cavity sampling is in order. [] infra red Carl have you or Thrasher used infra red sensor to detect mold behind walls,ect.? just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 Yes. But no, also. Because IR cannot detect mold. It can't even detect moisture. But it can be an invaluable tool in looking for damp spots where hidden mold might be growing. These technical distinctions are important to prevent wrong diagnosis resulting in either unnecessary work or no work when it is needed. Infrared detects differences in temperatures without identifying the cause. Water from leaks and condensation are often at a slightly different temperature than the building structure and will show up on an IR sensor or camera. During midday, however, the water and the structure are usually at the same temperature and won't be detected. But as the structure cools in the evening (or warms in the morning) the water temp doesn't change at the same rate and may become visible to IR. The image still has to be interpreted. Is the pattern consistent with water or with a building material that conducts heat at a different rate? Like metal or stone vs wood or drywall. Is it consistent with the location? IR is also used, based on the patterns and context, for detecting air leaks and heat loss through windows, doors, and missing/inadequate insulation. Very valuable for energy audits. Power line crews find " hot spots " , bad transformers, broken insulators for example. In all these applications it is the temperature differences which are being detected, not the direct problem. Thus, a strong IR pattern on a power line won't mean mold. Conversely, a strong pattern starting at the bottom corner of a north window may mean a water leak or just a draft. IR is most valuable as a scanning device to select suspect areas to be confirmed with moisture meters or opening the surface for direct examination. A negative IR may mean the water which was once there is now gone. But any mold which grew while damp will still be there undetected. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC (fm my Blackberry) [] infra red Carl have you or Thrasher used infra red sensor to detect mold behind walls,ect.? just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 ...but any mold remaining now that moisture is gone would be danger from mycotoxins,not from mold spores, if moisture is taken care of, correct, also endotoxins? Do bacteria live on without moisture or just there remains endotoxins? Once moisture problem is gone does mold and bacterial filth eventually disapate? If it disapates, does it just crumble into finer particles that can then be more easily inhaled? > > A negative IR may mean the water which was once there is now gone. But any mold which grew while damp will still be there undetected. > > Carl Grimes > Healthy Habitats LLC > (fm my Blackberry) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2010 Report Share Posted December 20, 2010 Barb, Yes to all your points and questions. However, there are contingencies (many previously discussed here) to each. In other words, not all conditions are present in all situations. We cannot reliably assume that all are true at all times. This his where part of the complexity and confusion enters and tends to persist. We want easy answers and easy remedies, which are often possible but when people are severely harmed - as many members of Sickbuildings are - then the difficulty expands exponentially. One of the quotes I often use is this point from the AIHA 2008 book Recognition, Evaluation and Control of Indoor Mold: " Intervention can resolve disease but requires careful manipulation of the environment. " That phrase " careful manipulation of the environment " is a simple and obvious statement but loaded with details and difficulty. The greater the impact on the occupant, and the longer it persists after exposure stops, the more difficult it is to successfully manipulate the environment. And the more difficult it is for individuals to identify external sources of exposure from internal sources of exposure and when one has been successful if the other hasn't. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- ...but any mold remaining now that moisture is gone would be danger from mycotoxins,not from mold spores, if moisture is taken care of, correct, also endotoxins? Do bacteria live on without moisture or just there remains endotoxins? Once moisture problem is gone does mold and bacterial filth eventually disapate? If it disapates, does it just crumble into finer particles that can then be more easily inhaled? > > A negative IR may mean the water which was once there is now gone. But any mold which grew while damp will still be there undetected. > > Carl Grimes > Healthy Habitats LLC > (fm my Blackberry) > > ---------- The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any other MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. ---- File information ----------- File: DEFAULT.BMP Date: 15 Jun 2009, 23:10 Size: 358 bytes. Type: Unknown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2010 Report Share Posted December 21, 2010 IR does NOT detect mold. It only shows temperatures of the 'visible' surfaces. It won't show a person behind the wall. It will show the temperature increase of the wall if the person was in contact with it long enough to warm it all the way to the 'visible' side. Think of IR technology as a camera. Instead of visible light (color, detail) it takes a picture of all the temperatures. If the temp difference is due to water, it will be cooler than the surrounding adjacent dry surface. Evaporation is a cooling effect. If it is cool due to insulation problems, you can infer that. Most of IR success is due to the technicians understanding of construction methods plus building science. Anyone who says the IR shows mold is ignorant of the technology limitations. good luck. > > Carl have you or Thrasher used infra red sensor to detect mold behind walls,ect.? just wondering. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2010 Report Share Posted December 21, 2010 I'm not haveing it done, I was just wondering about the use of it, I understand the difficulties exspecially if you dont know what your doing with it. but I can see where sometimes it might be useful in tracking water leaks in action behind walls, if the conditions are right to do it. > > > > Carl have you or Thrasher used infra red sensor to detect mold behind walls,ect.? just wondering. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2010 Report Share Posted December 22, 2010 Barb: You have asked some critical questions regarding the bacteria. No one has really published on the life of the bacteria following removal of the moisture and damaged materials. I can answer as follows in three cases I have recently been involved in: 1. Bermuda Police Buildings: These have been remediated several times. Moisture in the exterior walls is between 95 to 99 % (Lime Stone). Airborne spores still showed elevated Stachybotrys,. Aspergillus/Penicillium and others. Swab and bulk samples cultured positive for fungi and Gram negative and positive bacteria as well as the vacuum dust. Endotoxins were present though out the buildings. Trichothecenes, aflatoxins and ochratoxin were found in dust and bulk samples taken from various areas of the buildings. Are the buildings still contaminated? My answer is yes. 2. Family of three, water intrusion and sewage overflow: Same as item 1 above. I am very concerned about this case since all three occupants (ages 41, 42 and 15) are showing muscle wasting disease. I will fill the group in after mitochondrial studies are completed. Peripheral nerve conduction is normal. This apartment was remediated and we tested it several weeks after remediation. The Gram negative bacteria were 2.5 million per gram of dust; the endotoxins were 1 million EU/gram of dust. If it is in the dust it was in the air. As I recall moisture readings were low, (14 %). The water and sewage problems were fixed, however the apartment is still contaminated several weeks after the fix. 3. Family of Five: Same as 1 and 2 above. Two years after remediation. Moisture content was still elevated, coming through a high water table. Gram negative and positive bacteria were found along with endotoxins. These people are very ill, including continuous diarrhea. The water seepage from the ground water has not been remediated. 4. Infant that died at age 68 days of a Reye's-like syndrome. All of the above and more. We even found Asp flavus in this home, along with Stachybotrys and several species of Peniccilium. This home was tested before Hooper had his my tests available. However, the infant was positive for aflatoxins in the liver and skeletal muscle. Mitochondrial studies showed an acquired decreased enzymatic activity in mitochondrial Complexes I-IV. This paper is ready to be submitted for publication. Aflatoxins are mitochondrial poisons and mitDNA mutagen. The above is why I recommend testing for all variables. We need to define the contaminants that are affecting the occupants. [] Re: infra red ..but any mold remaining now that moisture is gone would be danger from mycotoxins,not from mold spores, if moisture is taken care of, correct, also endotoxins? Do bacteria live on without moisture or just there remains endotoxins? Once moisture problem is gone does mold and bacterial filth eventually disapate? If it disapates, does it just crumble into finer particles that can then be more easily inhaled? > > A negative IR may mean the water which was once there is now gone. But any mold which grew while damp will still be there undetected. > > Carl Grimes > Healthy Habitats LLC > (fm my Blackberry) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2010 Report Share Posted December 23, 2010 I had pancreatic fluid test positive for ochratoxin. Aspergillus was main contaminant in my home but not tested for bacteria. --- In , " Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...> wrote: > > Barb: You have asked some critical questions regarding the bacteria. No one has really published on the life of the bacteria following removal of the moisture and damaged materials. I can answer as follows in three cases I have recently been involved in: > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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