Re: Re: Mold Testing for Safety [was: Re: air purifier and c...

[Guest guest]

Anita and Carl,

Very well written statements. If I had a mold problem in a property, I

would always test before a remediation and after remediation. But not with

the intent to know what type the mold is or what must be done to remove it.

I would test because not all remediators are created equal and sometimes

make air quality worse, rather than better. Sometimes they cross

contaminate the house by blowing mold spores everywhere.

If you are unfortunate enough to get one of those remediators who are much

less equal than others (which happens when the insurer tries to send out

the cheapest people they can find to fix the problem), you don't have air

sample tests from before they remediated and after they finished.

If they cross contaminate your house and the air borne mold spore count is

higher after they finish, without doing pre-testing you have no way to show

that they made matters worse, not better.

So..if your house gets cross-contaminated and all your possessions ruined

to you, unless you have those pre and post remediation samples - you have no

way to prove that is what occurred.

They might be expensive, but I can personally attest that a $300 investment

in pre-testing can give a $500,000.00 return on investment. No $300

investment in pre-testing and one could lose everything they own if their

insurer sends Larry, Moe and Curly to remediate a house.

Sharon

In a message dated 1/6/2011 12:25:26 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

grimes@... writes:

Anita,

Wow! And thank you for the details. You are a case study

demonstrating an appropriate use for sampling. It was done by

plan, with a specific objective, illustrating several important

points.

1. You used a professional with knowledge beyond just how to

collect mold samples and get paid. He also took time to closely

question you to get specific information to guide his investigation

of the house and how to respond to you with clarifying questions.

But most importantly he listened to what you said.

2. The levels of detected Stachybotrys correlated with where you

did and did not react.

3. When moisture increased your reactions increased, even in

places previously non-reactive. If a dehumidifier had been able to

keep the humidity lower then perhaps that would have prevented

the additional areas of reaction. If it didn't then I would suspect

either prior water damage or condensation inside walls and other

structures.

4. Cross-contamination discussion. Many on this group have

been be-deviled by cross-contamination. Legitimately so. But

cross-contamination does not always cause a problem. In fact,

detectable levels of airborne Stachybotrys, whether from a growth

area or from cross-contamination, did not always cause you to

react. You reacted in the bedroom but not in the living room.

If the bedroom was the source and there wasn't another source in

the living room, then the Stachy in the living room was cross-

contamination from the bedroom. And you didn't react.

Moral 1 to this story: Presence of detectable mold does not

automatically mean someone will get sick. Yes, some do but not

everybody all the time.

Moral 2: Cross-contamination does not automatically mean

someone will get sick. Yes, some do and some need extra-

ordinary measures. But not everybody.

Moral 3: Sampling can be helpful, sometimes invaluable. But not

by itself without the context of the history and the details you

provided.

Moral 4: Now that you have information you can understand and

trust about mold, its affects on you, and mold testing you

probably won't need to test again for mold. You will know by your

experience. And you continue until your knowledge and

experience fails to solve your situation. At which time you need to

try something different to find a different cause.

Moral 5: Moderate cleaning of contents should be sufficient,

which means you don't have to necessarily abandon the house

and leave all your posessions behind. Again, some of us do. But

it is not automatic. You didn't and you even noticed that you

recovered after about 36 hours. You are one of the lucky majority.

More importantly, the reasons you gave at the end to support

your conclusions and decisions are valid.

Good job, Anita! Your story has almost all the elements needed

for a successful detective story. And your taking the risk to

" mention " your testing experience here was invaluable.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Carl,

I understand what you are saying about air sampling and now I wish I

hadn't mentioned it. But here is why I had it done in the home I was in

and what I found out for myself personally.

I moved in with a roommate who lives in an old mobile home. This is a

rural area and very few have built their own homes. I've come to learn

just how problematic mobiles are when it comes to mold. There was no

visible mold growing anywhere in her mobile but I could smell it in one

of the bathrooms. I really didn't think there was an issue in any of the

other rooms but after being there a while I stopped being able to take my

protocols which up until now has always meant mold exposure. (I found

out later the problem with that wasn't mold related. I hadn't changed to

a different antifungal and learned I have to rotate them frequently)

Because I was worried about mold I had a mold inspector come and he

was surprised when he looked around because there was no visible mold

anywhere. He thought I might be quite off in my beliefs about mold and

grilled me thoroughly to find out why I was concerned for my health,

what my beliefs were about mold, etc. It was very loving of him to take

that kind of time out of his day, but as he was not a stranger to me and

he took the time. We finally decided to take air samples to see if there

was indeed a problem somewhere that couldn't be seen. Maybe at least I

could know what areas to avoid. I don't have to smell mold to be affected

by it, which is why I unknowingly was exposed to it for so long.

The results showed a level of stachybotrys in the room I had been

sleeping in of 120/m3. He told me not to go in that room, but the other

two rooms were fine. For a week I had been very heavy and weak, had

very increased neurological symptoms, anxiety, and could barely get my

food prepared. 36 hours after leaving that room my strength returned

and I felt much better.

I had not smelled mold in that room, only in the adjoining bathroom,

and thought maybe the source of the mold was from there every time the

door was opened. The mold inspector told us to run the exhaust fan in

the bathroom, which we did for hours (mold smell disappeared), and

then we did it again later with the door open to draw out the air from the

bedroom. He also told us to wipe the walls in the room with water and

hepa vacuum. I thought maybe I'd be able to be in there after that but

stayed out just the same.

In the living room where I was staying the stachybotrys level was 27/m3

and didn't seem to bother me or cause any problems. Then heavy rains

came and the house became humid and I could smell mold in the other

room I'd been avoiding just on walking in. I eventually had to leave the

house altogether because the mold levels rose in the other rooms as well

and I reacted too hard to stay. I have since learned that a dehumidifier

would have done the trick and brought the mold count back down again.

I realize I am reactive to amounts of mold that are too low to bother

other people or for them to smell. I don't know if the problem with mold

is the mold itself or the VOC's from them. Possibly I am also reacting to

bacteria and other toxins from WDB when I am reacting to mold. I know

there are tens of thousands of kinds of molds and I seem to have a

problem with any kind. I can't eat foods that contain molds like blue

cheese, peanuts, or even bread (yeast). So I have quite a way to go to

recover and get healthy again.

I don't know whether I will have air sampling done again in future. It is

very expensive and it may just be better to go by how I feel physically

when there is no signs or smell of mold. After all, just because it is

good

or bad the day of the test doesn't mean it will stay that way.

anita

Sharon Noonan Kramer

[Guest guest]

Carl,

Agreed. One has to understand what testing can and cannot tell them of an

environment; and what evidence they hope to obtain from testing before

deciding what tests to do, if any.

Sharon

In a message dated 1/6/2011 4:39:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

grimes@... writes:

Sharon,

I agree with you on testing because you are COMPARING

samples from the same locations and comparing different times

such as pre- and post- remediation. They are done in a context

which gives meaning to the numbers.

What has little if any meaning is numbers for numbers sake.

Which is what most people get without realizing it.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Anita and Carl,

Very well written statements. If I had a mold problem in a property, I

would always test before a remediation and after remediation. But not

with

the intent to know what type the mold is or what must be done to remove

it.

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

I agree with you on testing because you are COMPARING

samples from the same locations and comparing different times

such as pre- and post- remediation. They are done in a context

which gives meaning to the numbers.

What has little if any meaning is numbers for numbers sake.

Which is what most people get without realizing it.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Anita and Carl,

Very well written statements. If I had a mold problem in a property, I

would always test before a remediation and after remediation. But not

with

the intent to know what type the mold is or what must be done to remove

it.

I would test because not all remediators are created equal and

sometimes

make air quality worse, rather than better. Sometimes they cross

contaminate the house by blowing mold spores everywhere.

If you are unfortunate enough to get one of those remediators who are

much

less equal than others (which happens when the insurer tries to send out

the cheapest people they can find to fix the problem), you don't have air

sample tests from before they remediated and after they finished.

If they cross contaminate your house and the air borne mold spore count

is

higher after they finish, without doing pre-testing you have no way to

show

that they made matters worse, not better.

So..if your house gets cross-contaminated and all your possessions

ruined

to you, unless you have those pre and post remediation samples - you

have no

way to prove that is what occurred.

They might be expensive, but I can personally attest that a $300

investment

in pre-testing can give a $500,000.00 return on investment. No $300

investment in pre-testing and one could lose everything they own if their

insurer sends Larry, Moe and Curly to remediate a house.

Sharon

In a message dated 1/6/2011 12:25:26 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

grimes@... writes:

Anita,

Wow! And thank you for the details. You are a case study

demonstrating an appropriate use for sampling. It was done by

plan, with a specific objective, illustrating several important

points.

1. You used a professional with knowledge beyond just how to

collect mold samples and get paid. He also took time to closely

question you to get specific information to guide his investigation

of the house and how to respond to you with clarifying questions.

But most importantly he listened to what you said.

2. The levels of detected Stachybotrys correlated with where you

did and did not react.

3. When moisture increased your reactions increased, even in

places previously non-reactive. If a dehumidifier had been able to

keep the humidity lower then perhaps that would have prevented

the additional areas of reaction. If it didn't then I would suspect

either prior water damage or condensation inside walls and other

structures.

4. Cross-contamination discussion. Many on this group have

been be-deviled by cross-contamination. Legitimately so. But

cross-contamination does not always cause a problem. In fact,

detectable levels of airborne Stachybotrys, whether from a growth

area or from cross-contamination, did not always cause you to

react. You reacted in the bedroom but not in the living room.

If the bedroom was the source and there wasn't another source in

the living room, then the Stachy in the living room was cross-

contamination from the bedroom. And you didn't react.

Moral 1 to this story: Presence of detectable mold does not

automatically mean someone will get sick. Yes, some do but not

everybody all the time.

Moral 2: Cross-contamination does not automatically mean

someone will get sick. Yes, some do and some need extra-

ordinary measures. But not everybody.

Moral 3: Sampling can be helpful, sometimes invaluable. But not

by itself without the context of the history and the details you

provided.

Moral 4: Now that you have information you can understand and

trust about mold, its affects on you, and mold testing you

probably won't need to test again for mold. You will know by your

experience. And you continue until your knowledge and

experience fails to solve your situation. At which time you need to

try something different to find a different cause.

Moral 5: Moderate cleaning of contents should be sufficient,

which means you don't have to necessarily abandon the house

and leave all your posessions behind. Again, some of us do. But

it is not automatic. You didn't and you even noticed that you

recovered after about 36 hours. You are one of the lucky majority.

More importantly, the reasons you gave at the end to support

your conclusions and decisions are valid.

Good job, Anita! Your story has almost all the elements needed

for a successful detective story. And your taking the risk to

" mention " your testing experience here was invaluable.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Carl,

I understand what you are saying about air sampling and now I wish I

hadn't mentioned it. But here is why I had it done in the home I was in

and what I found out for myself personally.

I moved in with a roommate who lives in an old mobile home. This is a

rural area and very few have built their own homes. I've come to learn

just how problematic mobiles are when it comes to mold. There was no

visible mold growing anywhere in her mobile but I could smell it in one

of the bathrooms. I really didn't think there was an issue in any of the

other rooms but after being there a while I stopped being able to take my

protocols which up until now has always meant mold exposure. (I found

out later the problem with that wasn't mold related. I hadn't changed to

a different antifungal and learned I have to rotate them frequently)

Because I was worried about mold I had a mold inspector come and he

was surprised when he looked around because there was no visible mold

anywhere. He thought I might be quite off in my beliefs about mold and

grilled me thoroughly to find out why I was concerned for my health,

what my beliefs were about mold, etc. It was very loving of him to take

that kind of time out of his day, but as he was not a stranger to me and

he took the time. We finally decided to take air samples to see if there

was indeed a problem somewhere that couldn't be seen. Maybe at least I

could know what areas to avoid. I don't have to smell mold to be affected

by it, which is why I unknowingly was exposed to it for so long.

The results showed a level of stachybotrys in the room I had been

sleeping in of 120/m3. He told me not to go in that room, but the other

two rooms were fine. For a week I had been very heavy and weak, had

very increased neurological symptoms, anxiety, and could barely get my

food prepared. 36 hours after leaving that room my strength returned

and I felt much better.

I had not smelled mold in that room, only in the adjoining bathroom,

and thought maybe the source of the mold was from there every time the

door was opened. The mold inspector told us to run the exhaust fan in

the bathroom, which we did for hours (mold smell disappeared), and

then we did it again later with the door open to draw out the air from the

bedroom. He also told us to wipe the walls in the room with water and

hepa vacuum. I thought maybe I'd be able to be in there after that but

stayed out just the same.

In the living room where I was staying the stachybotrys level was 27/m3

and didn't seem to bother me or cause any problems. Then heavy rains

came and the house became humid and I could smell mold in the other

room I'd been avoiding just on walking in. I eventually had to leave the

house altogether because the mold levels rose in the other rooms as well

and I reacted too hard to stay. I have since learned that a dehumidifier

would have done the trick and brought the mold count back down again.

I realize I am reactive to amounts of mold that are too low to bother

other people or for them to smell. I don't know if the problem with mold

is the mold itself or the VOC's from them. Possibly I am also reacting to

bacteria and other toxins from WDB when I am reacting to mold. I know

there are tens of thousands of kinds of molds and I seem to have a

problem with any kind. I can't eat foods that contain molds like blue

cheese, peanuts, or even bread (yeast). So I have quite a way to go to

recover and get healthy again.

I don't know whether I will have air sampling done again in future. It is

very expensive and it may just be better to go by how I feel physically

when there is no signs or smell of mold. After all, just because it is

good

or bad the day of the test doesn't mean it will stay that way.

anita

Sharon Noonan Kramer