Re: Women lifting heavy weights and hormonal changes

[Guest guest]

> Hey guys,

>

> I am trying to find out why there is a sterotype that if women lift heavy

> weights they will develop like a man?

Because pro female bodybuilders taking large doses of androgens have

come to represent " lifting weights " in the popular imagination.

>

> Reading an article by waterbury he showed a graph stating that women have

> lower T serum level compared to men but women may have the same or more

> inandrostenedione, Dihydrotestosterone, 17b-estradiol levels, and that this

> is the reason why some women can develop muscular size quickly.

After years of working with female clients I can say that regardless

of a woman's endogeneous hormonal environment, it is extremely rare to

find a woman (or even a man) who gains muscle naturally with any

appreciable rapidity. Muscle building is a relatively slow process for

both sexes. People often mistake strength gains, which in early stages

can be relatively quicker, for muscle mass gains.

Additionally, muscularity is not always correlated on a one-to-one

basis with hormone levels (in the sense that X units of muscle always

= Y units of Z hormone). A friend of mine competed in natural

bodybuilding and won her class. Several weeks later she produced an

incredible raw powerlifting performance. She has always been the

classic mesomorph sprinter type. And yet over the years, her hormone

profiles have consistently shown normal levels of sex hormones -- at

times even quite low testosterone.

It is even more rare to find a woman for whom overall size and bulk

are due almost entirely to muscle rather than body fat. Women who are

convinced they are she-hulks or freaks of nature are usually just

overfat with some visible musculature rather than truly lean, and/or

they have a distorted body image.

To demonstrate this, I have clients do skinfold caliper readings and

look at cross-sectional images such as these from the Visible Woman

project:

http://www.stumptuous.com/images/thighs_cross-section.jpg (thighs)

http://www.stumptuous.com/images/hips_cross-section.jpg (hips and pelvis)

When it comes to judging muscularity with any degree of accuracy I

have learned never to rely on anyone's anecdotal testimony. People can

be fantastically deluded about themselves and others. DEXA scans,

other types of medical images and low-error diagnostic techniques are

the best judge of reality.

Krista -Dixon

Toronto, ON

kristascottdixon@...

[Guest guest]

Well I can tell you I don't look in the least bit MALE! I certainly lift very

heavy too, and tend to gain muscle well. I don't do any drugs either so that's

not an issue - and I pass my drug tests and doctor exams, so it's not some

polycystic ovarian malady or natural hormonal oddity, just genes and heavy

lifting over here. I do think it's far more rare for a lady to be naturally

strong and particularly the bigger gals, when you look around competitions and

gyms! Perhaps there are more " ants " about who are even unaware of their real

potential...?

There are a good number of " women " who are doing steroids and other additives

though, and there is a pronounced tendency for this lot to " look male " overall.

This should not come as a shock, since if one was going to make a man from a

woman, one would first use a good deal of male hormones, then send them in for

the surgical alteration! Ironically then a good number of these persons add on

" fake bodyfat " in the manner of breast implants, to supplant what they have

taken great care to utterly remove - normal feminine attributes!

What I always heard was there is a very small minority of women who tend to have

more fast twitch fibers naturally and thus tend to be significantly better at

gaining muscle and strength than the average. Clearly not all of this worldwide

minority exhibit their strength nor work on increasing it, which further

diminishes the likelihood of such a discovery...

Some guesses on why this idiocy persists is the notion that women should do a

lot of cardio, and prance about with at most pink plastic dumbbells...that this

is more acceptable than a display of well, brute feminine strength <grin>. Sort

of like the notion we should all be say, Donna ...or show less than our own

intelligence? Fashion too is to blame a good deal - the media now obsesses over

someone who is a size zero - and how strong can they be?

Strength and a display of naturally acquired muscle, not some unfortunate

additive laden " female bodybuilder " look, is quite feminine...! It simply is

not fashionable in a land where most celebrate dieting and not building of

athletic performance!

And as for the nonsense of the wailing cry, " Oh I'll get BULKY if I lift

weights " ? <grin> Nothing IMO looks " bulkier " than overwhelming amounts of

BODYFAT!

Strength and lifting heavy for me, just as for my brothers in iron, the Power

that Preserves. But anybody who knows me realizes there is NO chance of me

being mistaken for said brethren!

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, competing drug free powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

-------------- Original message --------------

Hey guys,

I am trying to find out why there is a sterotype that if women lift heavy

weights they will develop like a man?

Reading an article by waterbury he showed a graph stating that women have lower

T serum level compared to men but women may have the same or more

inandrostenedione, Dihydrotestosterone, 17b-estradiol levels, and that this is

the reason why some women can develop muscular size quickly.

Can anyone help me out on this?

Matsui

NY,NY USA

[Guest guest]

... much respect to you! I just looked you up and you are quite

prominent in the PL scene, and rightly so.

My wife is one of those women that DOES put on muscle quite easily.

She competes for the first time in FEB.

I work with women that are overly concerened with putting on " bulk "

so I think I can add something here.

Many women get alarmed when they feel a muscle " pump " because they

interpret that as " getting bigger " . They also get nervous when their

muscles are a little swollen and sore from DOMS, as that can feel

like " getting bigger " . Most simply don't understand the biochemistry

of what it takes to add muscle. Consider how many young males are

able to add significant amounts of muscle in a year. Honestly, the

results are quite meager, overall. Ten pounds a year is an

accomplishment for the average late teen aged male. This is when

their bodies are primed to put on muscle, too!

Another problem is that many women simply don't like to STRAAAAINNN

when they work out. My wife was like that for a long time. Watch

powerlifters work out (I am one). It isn't pretty. Most girls (I am

being careful here) want to look pretty.

I am a Strength Development instructor at the United States Military

Academy at West Point, so I get to field these questions all the time.

Damon Wells

West Point, NY

>

> Well I can tell you I don't look in the least bit MALE! I

certainly lift very heavy too, and tend to gain muscle well. I don't

do any drugs either so that's not an issue - and I pass my drug tests

and doctor exams, so it's not some polycystic ovarian malady or

natural hormonal oddity, just genes and heavy lifting over here. I

do think it's far more rare for a lady to be naturally strong and

particularly the bigger gals, when you look around competitions and

gyms! Perhaps there are more " ants " about who are even unaware of

their real potential...?

>

> There are a good number of " women " who are doing steroids and other

additives though, and there is a pronounced tendency for this lot

to " look male " overall. This should not come as a shock, since if

one was going to make a man from a woman, one would first use a good

deal of male hormones, then send them in for the surgical

alteration! Ironically then a good number of these persons add

on " fake bodyfat " in the manner of breast implants, to supplant what

they have taken great care to utterly remove - normal feminine

attributes!

>

> What I always heard was there is a very small minority of women who

tend to have more fast twitch fibers naturally and thus tend to be

significantly better at gaining muscle and strength than the

average. Clearly not all of this worldwide minority exhibit their

strength nor work on increasing it, which further diminishes the

likelihood of such a discovery...

>

> Some guesses on why this idiocy persists is the notion that women

should do a lot of cardio, and prance about with at most pink plastic

dumbbells...that this is more acceptable than a display of well,

brute feminine strength <grin>. Sort of like the notion we should

all be say, Donna ...or show less than our own intelligence?

Fashion too is to blame a good deal - the media now obsesses over

someone who is a size zero - and how strong can they be?

>

> Strength and a display of naturally acquired muscle, not some

unfortunate additive laden " female bodybuilder " look, is quite

feminine...! It simply is not fashionable in a land where most

celebrate dieting and not building of athletic performance!

>

> And as for the nonsense of the wailing cry, " Oh I'll get BULKY if I

lift weights " ? <grin> Nothing IMO looks " bulkier " than overwhelming

amounts of BODYFAT!

>

> Strength and lifting heavy for me, just as for my brothers in iron,

the Power that Preserves. But anybody who knows me realizes there is

NO chance of me being mistaken for said brethren!

>

> The Phantom

> aka Schaefer, CMT, competing drug free powerlifter

> Denver, Colorado, USA

>

>

> -------------- Original message --------------

>

> Hey guys,

>

> I am trying to find out why there is a sterotype that if women lift

heavy weights they will develop like a man?

>

> Reading an article by waterbury he showed a graph stating that

women have lower T serum level compared to men but women may have the

same or more inandrostenedione, Dihydrotestosterone, 17b-estradiol

levels, and that this is the reason why some women can develop

muscular size quickly.

>

> Can anyone help me out on this?

>

> Matsui

> NY,NY USA

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Agreed with the first two comments but with all due respect, I would say there

are lean big women out there in particular - and they are rare, but present.

Years ago, fellow competitors noticed I wasn't a typical " fat shw " lifter. I've

grown leaner over time than I was and unless I take up bodybuilding, I'm not

likely to try to " rip " as this is not productive nor healthy.

As I said in my posting, my observations over the years of competing PL and

lifting in public gyms has made me realize there aren't many big gals who are

this big and this lean out there.

Bodyfat measures, with their age based formulas, tend to be very bizarre when

dealing with someone built like I am. Mel did a caliper check on me years ago

and it wasn't even close to fat then lol. Since that time, I've had various

different measures and they're really wild in some cases...<shrug>. I've had

one DEXA scan and it was lower than what Mel had me at years ago.

If the information I was given years ago is correct, there are a few wild cards

out there, and I'm guessing most never realize their strength or muscle gaining

potential. They may be old, children, or engrossed in trying to futilely meet

the standards of a world based on SMALL as being good....the fashion of tiny

being everything now. The key to figuring out where you belong is picking up

the weights, and finding you're coming home.

the Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

-------------- Original message --------------

> Hey guys,

>

> I am trying to find out why there is a sterotype that if women lift heavy

> weights they will develop like a man?

Because pro female bodybuilders taking large doses of androgens have

come to represent " lifting weights " in the popular imagination.

>

> Reading an article by waterbury he showed a graph stating that women have

> lower T serum level compared to men but women may have the same or more

> inandrostenedione, Dihydrotestosterone, 17b-estradiol levels, and that this

> is the reason why some women can develop muscular size quickly.

After years of working with female clients I can say that regardless

of a woman's endogeneous hormonal environment, it is extremely rare to

find a woman (or even a man) who gains muscle naturally with any

appreciable rapidity. Muscle building is a relatively slow process for

both sexes. People often mistake strength gains, which in early stages

can be relatively quicker, for muscle mass gains.

Additionally, muscularity is not always correlated on a one-to-one

basis with hormone levels (in the sense that X units of muscle always

= Y units of Z hormone). A friend of mine competed in natural

bodybuilding and won her class. Several weeks later she produced an

incredible raw powerlifting performance. She has always been the

classic mesomorph sprinter type. And yet over the years, her hormone

profiles have consistently shown normal levels of sex hormones -- at

times even quite low testosterone.

It is even more rare to find a woman for whom overall size and bulk

are due almost entirely to muscle rather than body fat. Women who are

convinced they are she-hulks or freaks of nature are usually just

overfat with some visible musculature rather than truly lean, and/or

they have a distorted body image.

To demonstrate this, I have clients do skinfold caliper readings and

look at cross-sectional images such as these from the Visible Woman

project:

http://www.stumptuous.com/images/thighs_cross-section.jpg (thighs)

http://www.stumptuous.com/images/hips_cross-section.jpg (hips and pelvis)

When it comes to judging muscularity with any degree of accuracy I

have learned never to rely on anyone's anecdotal testimony. People can

be fantastically deluded about themselves and others. DEXA scans,

other types of medical images and low-error diagnostic techniques are

the best judge of reality.

Krista -Dixon

Toronto, ON

kristascottdixon@...

[Guest guest]

Congratulations first to the new competitor, may the weights feel light and the

lights be white! She is clearly fortunate to have a spouse who values strength

and will support her in her quest against gravity... (And Father Time's erosion

too!).

Your words are far too kind regarding me, I stopped giving interviews oh, I

think in 2003. Pretty much felt there were much better lifters out there and

ran out of new things to say - you can only say " women should lift to save their

own lives and health " so many times...<grin>. Other than again saying " support

your local PL gal and anybody else who wants to lift " heavy " " lol. It's about

making sure the torch gets passed on, otherwise the fuel you have will let it

die out individually.

I appreciate the fact you spend a good deal of time answering the same questions

we seem to get, over and over.... like the myth about DL being " bad for your

back " and how squatting deep will " hurt your knees " ....the myths about women in

sports die as hard as the nonsense that women should not exert themselves! (And

how that one came about in the face of how hard housework is on people who do it

constantly? ye gods!). Oh yeah, and the one about " muscle turning into fat " ?

now there's a great one lol....

Ladies need to stop dieting and start lifting. And men tend to get fat and

saggy when they STOP!

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

-------------- Original message --------------

... much respect to you! I just looked you up and you are quite

prominent in the PL scene, and rightly so.

My wife is one of those women that DOES put on muscle quite easily.

She competes for the first time in FEB.

I work with women that are overly concerened with putting on " bulk "

so I think I can add something here.

Many women get alarmed when they feel a muscle " pump " because they

interpret that as " getting bigger " . They also get nervous when their

muscles are a little swollen and sore from DOMS, as that can feel

like " getting bigger " . Most simply don't understand the biochemistry

of what it takes to add muscle. Consider how many young males are

able to add significant amounts of muscle in a year. Honestly, the

results are quite meager, overall. Ten pounds a year is an

accomplishment for the average late teen aged male. This is when

their bodies are primed to put on muscle, too!

Another problem is that many women simply don't like to STRAAAAINNN

when they work out. My wife was like that for a long time. Watch

powerlifters work out (I am one). It isn't pretty. Most girls (I am

being careful here) want to look pretty.

I am a Strength Development instructor at the United States Military

Academy at West Point, so I get to field these questions all the time.

Damon Wells

West Point, NY

>

> Well I can tell you I don't look in the least bit MALE! I

certainly lift very heavy too, and tend to gain muscle well. I don't

do any drugs either so that's not an issue - and I pass my drug tests

and doctor exams, so it's not some polycystic ovarian malady or

natural hormonal oddity, just genes and heavy lifting over here. I

do think it's far more rare for a lady to be naturally strong and

particularly the bigger gals, when you look around competitions and

gyms! Perhaps there are more " ants " about who are even unaware of

their real potential...?

>

> There are a good number of " women " who are doing steroids and other

additives though, and there is a pronounced tendency for this lot

to " look male " overall. This should not come as a shock, since if

one was going to make a man from a woman, one would first use a good

deal of male hormones, then send them in for the surgical

alteration! Ironically then a good number of these persons add

on " fake bodyfat " in the manner of breast implants, to supplant what

they have taken great care to utterly remove - normal feminine

attributes!

>

> What I always heard was there is a very small minority of women who

tend to have more fast twitch fibers naturally and thus tend to be

significantly better at gaining muscle and strength than the

average. Clearly not all of this worldwide minority exhibit their

strength nor work on increasing it, which further diminishes the

likelihood of such a discovery...

>

> Some guesses on why this idiocy persists is the notion that women

should do a lot of cardio, and prance about with at most pink plastic

dumbbells...that this is more acceptable than a display of well,

brute feminine strength <grin>. Sort of like the notion we should

all be say, Donna ...or show less than our own intelligence?

Fashion too is to blame a good deal - the media now obsesses over

someone who is a size zero - and how strong can they be?

>

> Strength and a display of naturally acquired muscle, not some

unfortunate additive laden " female bodybuilder " look, is quite

feminine...! It simply is not fashionable in a land where most

celebrate dieting and not building of athletic performance!

>

> And as for the nonsense of the wailing cry, " Oh I'll get BULKY if I

lift weights " ? <grin> Nothing IMO looks " bulkier " than overwhelming

amounts of BODYFAT!

>

> Strength and lifting heavy for me, just as for my brothers in iron,

the Power that Preserves. But anybody who knows me realizes there is

NO chance of me being mistaken for said brethren!

>

> The Phantom

> aka Schaefer, CMT, competing drug free powerlifter

> Denver, Colorado, USA

>

>

> -------------- Original message --------------

>

> Hey guys,

>

> I am trying to find out why there is a sterotype that if women lift

heavy weights they will develop like a man?

>

> Reading an article by waterbury he showed a graph stating that

women have lower T serum level compared to men but women may have the

same or more inandrostenedione, Dihydrotestosterone, 17b-estradiol

levels, and that this is the reason why some women can develop

muscular size quickly.

>

> Can anyone help me out on this?

>

> Matsui

> NY,NY USA

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello to all interested in this topic of women, muscular

development, strength development, and appearances or stereotyping.

There are two distinct discussions that can be engaged in as a

result of Matsui's first posting:

1. the stereotyping of women who strength train by men AND women

2. the hormonal variances in women who strength train and any

ultimate 'size' development

In regards to 'stereotyping' and training; at best we can say it is

all in a person's perspective and/or their knowledge or education

regarding the physiology of the human body. As human physiology is

not a required part of K-12, nor is it taught as a part of the PE

curriculum, it is left to individuals to learn from their local gym

rats or magazines sold at the local grocery store if they do not

proceed to college or gain their knowledge from an individual who

took coursework in exercise physiology. As very few certifications

in personal training require a college degree....well, I will leave

that there.

So, if we look at education gained from the uneducated, then we will

find that misconceptions exist in males as well as females. Those

males who wish to gain muscular size when engaged in weight training

and do not, will consume a numerous variety of supplements,

participate in training programs that often lead to overtraining and

lack of development as well as injury, or partake in those illegal

substances that will ultimately aide in muscular development that

they were not genetically designed to have. This has ultimately lead

to the conception that only testosterone and growth hormones cause

gains in muscular size and strength.

As for women...the stereotyping of women gaining big muscles due to

strength training began as a result of several events that occured

simultaneously in the 70's: In the 1970's, women saught to gain

equal recognition in athletics (Title IX) and it was recognized that

the East German women were excelling and they were quite muscular.

And overall at that time, weight training was taking hold in the

athletic world because those lifting weights had " bigger " muscles

and therefore more strength and power. So ultimately, the

stereotyping that women who lifted weights would get big muscles

began. It doesn't help that in today's society, young women still

epitomize the more anorexic 'model' look and therefore don't realize

the value of maintaining an appropriate amount of muscle mass.

Clothes are not made for women who train, so to have muscle means

clothes don't fit in the muscular areas. I am 5'4 and often times

can rip the arms of a medium top (you know, the elegant type). This

leads to negativity about gaining any muscle.

Coupled with these misconceptions for women, research demonstrated

that gains in strength for men were accompanied over time by

increases in testosterone levels. These things have all resulted in

the generalities that the general and uneducated population believe.

Men gain bigger muscles because they have testosterone, therefore, a

woman who gains muscle must have hormonal issues.

So in answer to the second issue, there is still limited research

regarding women, strength training, and hormonal variances. My

investigation into the subject in 1994 for a paper during my

graduate years found that most research involving women and

resistance training involved the use of machines, 3 sets of 10-12

repetitions, and untrained women for very short periods of

training. Because of these methods, rarely were hormonal changes

seen. Since that time, there have been more investigations using

more appropriate strength training methods, but still limited focus

on various hormones.

In Resistance Training for Health and Rehabilitation by Graves and

lin, 2001, Kraemer et al are sited as investigating the

hormonal responses to varying resistance exercise protocols in

women. The study, conducted in 1993, did demonstrate increases in

serum growth hormone, cortisol, and plasma ammonia during and after

exercise. After conducting a brief search on medline this evening,

few studies specific to women training for the purpose of strength

training and not postmenopausal or with other conditions are listed.

Given more time, we might find a few, but still few looking at a

larger hormonal assay.

I bring this up as there is a specific condition known as CAH or

congenital adrenal hyperplasia. In the non-classic form, women will

develop masculine traits due to a reduced ability to produce

cortisol. In many cases these traits include a more muscular build.

There are normal levels of testosterone as the error results in

decreased production of cortisol. So in the attempt to produce

normal levels of cortisol, there is often an excess production of

DHEA or DHEA-sulfate and maybe others (I forget all the details at

this point). The endocrinologists I spoke to back in the 90's felt

that there would also be a demonstration of increased strength.

So, there is much to investigate to this day in regards to women and

lifting heavy weights.

In closing, just as with men, the ability to develop muscular size

as a result of lifting heavy weights is genetic; what is the length

of the muscle body in relationship to the tendon length, what is the

fiber type of the individual (fast or slow), what program of

training is being engaged in, and lastly, what are the nutritional

habits of the individual?

MS, ATC/L, CSCS*D

Sports Medicine Instructor, NSCA Regional Coordinator

Puyallup, Washington, USA

>

> Well I can tell you I don't look in the least bit MALE! I

certainly lift very heavy too, and tend to gain muscle well. I

don't do any drugs either so that's not an issue - and I pass my

drug tests and doctor exams, so it's not some polycystic ovarian

malady or natural hormonal oddity, just genes and heavy lifting over

here. I do think it's far more rare for a lady to be naturally

strong and particularly the bigger gals, when you look around

competitions and gyms! Perhaps there are more " ants " about who are

even unaware of their real potential...?

>

> There are a good number of " women " who are doing steroids and

other additives though, and there is a pronounced tendency for this

lot to " look male " overall. This should not come as a shock, since

if one was going to make a man from a woman, one would first use a

good deal of male hormones, then send them in for the surgical

alteration! Ironically then a good number of these persons add

on " fake bodyfat " in the manner of breast implants, to supplant what

they have taken great care to utterly remove - normal feminine

attributes!

>

> What I always heard was there is a very small minority of women

who tend to have more fast twitch fibers naturally and thus tend to

be significantly better at gaining muscle and strength than the

average. Clearly not all of this worldwide minority exhibit their

strength nor work on increasing it, which further diminishes the

likelihood of such a discovery...

>

> Some guesses on why this idiocy persists is the notion that women

should do a lot of cardio, and prance about with at most pink

plastic dumbbells...that this is more acceptable than a display of

well, brute feminine strength <grin>. Sort of like the notion we

should all be say, Donna ...or show less than our own

intelligence? Fashion too is to blame a good deal - the media now

obsesses over someone who is a size zero - and how strong can they

be?

>

> Strength and a display of naturally acquired muscle, not some

unfortunate additive laden " female bodybuilder " look, is quite

feminine...! It simply is not fashionable in a land where most

celebrate dieting and not building of athletic performance!

>

> And as for the nonsense of the wailing cry, " Oh I'll get BULKY if

I lift weights " ? <grin> Nothing IMO looks " bulkier " than

overwhelming amounts of BODYFAT!

>

> Strength and lifting heavy for me, just as for my brothers in

iron, the Power that Preserves. But anybody who knows me realizes

there is NO chance of me being mistaken for said brethren!

>

> The Phantom

> aka Schaefer, CMT, competing drug free powerlifter

> Denver, Colorado, USA

>

>

> -------------- Original message --------------

>

> Hey guys,

>

> I am trying to find out why there is a sterotype that if women

lift heavy weights they will develop like a man?

>

> Reading an article by waterbury he showed a graph stating that

women have lower T serum level compared to men but women may have

the same or more inandrostenedione, Dihydrotestosterone, 17b-

estradiol levels, and that this is the reason why some women can

develop muscular size quickly.

>

> Can anyone help me out on this?

>

> Matsui

> NY,NY USA

>

>

>

>

>