Guest guest Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Carruthers Posted: you must be overtraining and should periodise your training;) Casler writes: I wish that worked. Sad to say that I do beleive periodization would certainly reduce the day to day DOMS, but it would also likely reduce my conditioning level. The training effect and rebound capability changes with age, and sad to say, I am able to see that. In ones youth, there are periods where you " can " over-reach, then deload/no load, and gain a rebound. That rebound is substantially reduced to " deconditioning " after a certain age, which then leads to lower level stimuli and even greater DOMS but less often. At least that has been my personal experience. Carruthers Posted: Below are comments from Dr Siff regarding this topic: Growth with and without Damage In other words, genetic mechanisms can remodel tissues either to facilitate normal growth, growth stimulated by mechanical effort or growth to repair damage. The above example, therefore, suggests that one should be cautious before implicating damage as a central and necessary process which can explain all hypertrophy. After all, it would appear to be unnecessarily inefficient and stressful for the training athlete always to be in a state of damage. Does it sound logical that damage should be the primary stimulus for all biological growth? Would it not be preferable to implicate cellular restructuring orchestrated by genetic programmes in response to environmental and endogenous stresses (such as increase in tissue tension). Then, again, the frequent occurrence of macroscopic tissue injuries (manifesting as partial or complete tissue ruptures or lesions) among sports competitors would seem to corroborate the theory that accumulating micro-injuries and damage are the fundamental cause of many injuries which are not caused by traumatic impact or accident. Casler writes: Mel is of course writing to a General Sports/Training ideal. The mean audience would be the coach or athlete of a competitive age to which the recovery period is far more immediate and resilient. He is likely also suggesting that under a normal Strength/Athletic training system, you can attain a far higher " level " of conditioning and recovery. Even 10 years ago, my recovery rate was beyond exceptional for the workload I placed into the training. But, now the cycles are different (every 10 days allows an area to completely recover) The DOMS/EIMD I spoke of is not " whole body " , but BodyPart specific since I use a 3 way split (Chest/Back, Legs/Torso, Arms/Shoulders) and train the whole body via this split 3 x a month. I could option to " reduce " Intensity and workload and " lose " both strength, TYPE II mass, and conditioning, or continue on, which seems like a more satisfying option. Not to belabor the point, but there are some very interesting options to training periodization/cycles/phases, that need more exploration as we pass 35 or 40, and move into our 50's and beyond. I know we have several on this list who are in exceptional condition (especially regarding strength) who likely have explored a few. Carruthers Posted: (as per Mel Siff) Possibly we need to distinguish carefully between several different categories of growth and abandon the hypothesis that all growth is stimulated by damaging tissue through exercise: .. Growth occurring as part of the normal maturation process .. Growth to replace tissues depleted by daily living and ageing .. Growth regulated by the mechanical stimulation of effort .. Growth to repair damage caused by excessive levels of tissue stress .. Growth to repair damage caused by disease or disuse Casler writes: I heard a new " stress " term the other day called eustress, which is a term for " stress " that causes a positive outcome, versus " distress " which is somewhat negative in its result. I don't know if I grasp this term correctly, or not, but it seems that the stressor that " long term " leads to the desired result is " eustress " and the one that leads to deconditioning is " distress " . At this point, the stress causing my EIMD seems to still be eustress. Carruthers Posted: (for Mel Siff) Sure, strenuous resistance training can produce damage of muscle fibrils and cells, but it's never been proven that this is a necessary and sufficient condition for muscle hypertrophy and strength increase. If this were true, it would mean that all serious athletes are perpetually in a state of constant muscle damage, and it's illogical that biological adaptation should rely solely on a destructive mechanism like this. <snip> Adaptation, as opposed to repair, doesn't involve tissue damage and pain-it depends on painless reconstruction and modification of muscle cells via communication of the coding mechanisms inside the cell and the cell membrane. For example, the work of Goldspink shows that muscle genes are regulated largely by mechanical stimulation, not mechanical damage (The brains behind the brawn. New Scientist 1 Aug 1992: 28-33). The marked muscle soreness that a newcomer to a training regime experiences is DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness), which peaks approximately 48 hours after exercise and has nothing to do with the training value of the exercise. At best, it generally is a physiological indicator that you did too much of something new for too long at a given stage of training, especially if the " negative " part of the movement was deliberately slowed down or accentuated by powerful plyometric action. Casler writes: Again Mel is addressing a certain " competitive age " athlete, who has far greater adaptive ability and shorter recovery periods. The additional part of the equation, is the " window " of stasis of trained conditioning, or the amount of time one benefits from the conditioning effect of the training stimulus. I recall with great lucidity the taper and cessation of all strength training 3-4 days before a " track meet " (Discus/Shot) and the perceptive peak of conditioning that could offer, which would last for at least a week beyond, before feeling like " deconditioning " (especially strength) was occurring. In fact many times I (think we all) noticed that a even a 2 week layoff would bring me back evens stronger. This is the rebound effect and far more evident in youthful athletes/trainees. Now days, this window is far smaller, and seems to peak a day or so after the DOMS is gone. And if training is not undertaken soon, deconditioning begins rather rapidly. Those Incredible " Rebound Conditioning " days are more limited, and fill a smaller space. Carruthers Posted: ====================== Exercise-Induced Muscle Damage in Humans son PM, Hubal MJ: Exercise-induced muscle damage in humans. Am J Phys Med Rehabil 2002;81(Suppl):S52-S69. Extracts: The mechanism to explain the repeated bout effect is not fully known. As a general statement, it can be assumed that the damage produced in the first bout of exercise in some way produces an adaptation such that the muscle is more resistant to subsequent damaging exercise. Moreover, even though the first bout may produce evidence of only mild damage, there is still a prophylactic effect on a subsequent, more intense bout of damaging exercise.118 Several investigators have suggested that the repeated bout effect may be explained by neural factors, such as more efficient recruitment patterns during the second bout.120,12 Casler writes: The above is another example of the " prophylactic " supposition with " not enough information " to draw conclusion. After years of training, it is evident that most if not all true DOMS/EIMD is caused by the force level during eccentric action. The " protective effect " is based on the fact that the initial adaptation creates a level of tissue strength that is " adequate " to not sustain damage as long as the " concentric " ability limits a similar load increase. That is, your concentric lifting ability " limits " the eccentric load which has established tissue strength parameters. However, if you; perform an exceptionally high number of reps, or in some way create higher eccentric loads, outside those parameters, then DOMS again will occur. So the " protection " is conditional within parameters. So in essense, I think the greater point to understand is that the " limiter " to this " protective effect " is not simply additional bouts, but the fact that the concentric ability limits the amount of eccentric force exposure, and that the " amount " of eccentric exposures (reps) is also of significance. If one adds a significant number of additional exposures (even at the same force load) DOMS can be generated. This is evidenced by having the strength and conditioning to perform standing calf raises with several hundred pounds, and almost being crippled by having to descend a 30 story building because the elevator is " out of Order " . In 24-48 hours, you will realize that the heavy calf exercise did not protect you at all. My training has a " boat load " of both high force/tension exposures and more of them . LOL I guess I can take solace in the fact that virtually " nothing else " makes me sore. And then again, who knows? Maybe what I think is DOMS is simply the aches and pains of becoming a Senior Citizen Again, great stuff , and worth exploring. Regards, Casler TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Systems Century City, CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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