Re: The Value of Box Squatting - PL versus WL Squat

[Guest guest]

Thanks .

We've had this inane discussion about box squats before. When I expressed the

position that " half " or " powerlifting " squats were harder on the knee joint and

there was research to support my position, there was some serious disagreement

amongst those promoting box squats as a worthwhile training modality. I was

asked to produce the research . Never did find it, but I think Charigna's

explanation is says all that needs be said..

Box squatting for powerlifting is just another reason powerlifting does not

translate well to sports training.

This is old news. Lets move on to more productive discussions.

W.G.

Ubermensch Sports Consultancy

San Diego, CA

============================

Subject: Re: The Value of Box Squatting - PL versus WL Squat

To: Supertraining

Date: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 11:03 AM

>

> Hey everyone,

>

> There is a lot of praise out there for the value of box squatting

> when it comes to training an ultra-wide stance powerlifting squat,

> teaching someone to squat to proper depth, the use of bands and

> weight releasers for raising kinetic energy that is tranferred into

> the body as " reversal strength " when they hit the box, etc. etc.

>

> My question is, what does everyone here think the value is of box

> squatting for a Weightlifting squat? (high bar, upright torso, no

> ultra-wide stance) The main issue being the amount of knee flexion

> and quadriceps activation. In a powerlifting squat on the box, you

> are taught to sit back and have the shins perpendicular to the

floor,

> placing the emphasis on the glutes and hamstrings while taking away

> stress from the patella tendon. However, for a wWeightlifting squat

> where the stance is not so wide, would you still try to sit back and

> have the shins perpendicular, or... ?

*****

Bud Charigna recently wrote the below on his website:

" " ...Box squats. There is no such thing as box squat technique

because no one should do squats to a box or another rigid surface for

that matter. The illogic associated with this movement is connected

with the fact that its adherents mistakenly believe squats are hard

on the knees and back. Therefore, the thinking is that if the knees

are flexed less there is less stress on these joints. This is not

true.

In actuality, unless one leans greatly forward, there is more stress

on the knees in a half squat or bench squat depth because the

resistance arm relative to the knee joint is at or near its greatest

length, i.e., the moment on the joint is highest.

Leaning forward is also not a viable option in squatting. The weak

link here is the lumbar spine. Like the knee joints with a half

squat, leaning forward increases the moment on the lumbar area.

Keeping the back as vertical as possible is of course the best

technique in squatting, but squatting to a rigid surface places the

discs of the spine between " a rock and a hard place. " This is not a

good idea.

One of the principal sources of misinformation in regards to the

perceived value of box squats, especially at the present time, comes

from the power lifting community in the USA. The reader is referred

to the web site of the International Power lifting Federation to

peruse the results of the worlds championships for the past ten

years. You will note that the American champions are very few and

far between, and, apparently, none come from Columbus, Ohio which is

a hotbed of box squat activity.... "

================================

[Guest guest]

After thinking this one through, with some experience in both PL and performing

some OL cleans and snatches myself in training, and with years in doing front

squats with a clean grip, I'd have to say that I'd prefer to see athletes use

the pause sq, not the box for this exercise. This being said though, I think

it's a bit of an error to teach a halt at the bottom of a lift. I myself used

pause back sq in training years ago and found if I wasn't completely focused,

I'd stop under a heavy weight....the trick in such a sq is not to stop, just as

it's not the thing you want in a clean recovery in particular, but to dip the

butt and rebound out of the hole. That is what we want them to do reflexively.

One way you can use the partial front squat though and it does help build some

weak point recovery is a rack front squat. This is a partial you usually start

training from just short of the top of the lift. You set your safety side bars

up high - and you set the lift to begin from the safety bars just short of a

lockout position. Care must be taken to set up and be utterly tight from the

beginning. You essentially do a " front sq lockout " from the bar positions.

(Bar is placed on the safety bars for your start). As you get better at this,

you lower the safety bar positions. Eventually with a good back spotter, you

are moving your weight from the hole position from a stopped start. That is,

the whole front squat is a move from the hole to standing upright, and then the

reps are from the safety bars.

Obviously you use a lot less weight than you can easily do when you work this

move. One advantage of such a rack front sq is that it may be used during rehab

without some of the balance issues and help maintain some overall strength in a

fashion that is translatable to the event you wish to return to. Another is

that it does not teach a pause in the hole and it's something that can be tuned

by height to the problem area the athlete has, similar to using a bench lockout

correction.

The rack back squat done in a similar fashion can be employed both for an

alternative to the back squat pause or box, or in use as a similar move to a leg

press if no machine is available.

I hope the above will prove useful to the original poster.

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

=============================

Hey everyone,

There is a lot of praise out there for the value of box squatting

when it comes to training an ultra-wide stance powerlifting squat,

teaching someone to squat to proper depth, the use of bands and

weight releasers for raising kinetic energy that is tranferred into

the body as " reversal strength " when they hit the box, etc. etc.

My question is, what does everyone here think the value is of box

squatting for a Weightlifting squat? (high bar, upright torso, no

ultra-wide stance) The main issue being the amount of knee flexion

and quadriceps activation. In a powerlifting squat on the box, you

are taught to sit back and have the shins perpendicular to the floor,

placing the emphasis on the glutes and hamstrings while taking away

stress from the patella tendon. However, for a wWeightlifting squat

where the stance is not so wide, would you still try to sit back and

have the shins perpendicular, or... ?

I also read in the archives about Weightlifters using bands with the

squat (enphasizing speed, like the " Westside dynamic day " ) without a

box. In Loui's articles he always talks about the importane of the

box for the kinetic energy and reversal strength (I'm sure many of

you have heard it before). So anyone who has experimented with this,

if you could share your thoughts that would be very much apreciated.

Also keep in mind that my perspective comes from training the

weightlifting squat only; carry over to the clean and snatch isn't

an issue.

=============================