Re: How ABAists view biomed and complimentary medicine

May 3, 2012

This is REALLY sad to read - it's just so depressing and I totally agree with

you on the " slice of the pie " idea.....

Naive of me to think that they'd be happy to find something which might make our

children more receptive to learning on their ABA programme ;-)

Lorna

Mum to Hugo (5) - ABA AND Biomedical for 3 years - BOTH needed IMHO.......

>

http://www.dcc-cde.ca.gov/af/Autism%20Presentations/L.Copeland%20-%20Evidence%20\

on%20Complementary%20 & %20Alternative%20Medical%20Interventions.pdf

>

> This piece by a doc in the USA is indicative of where many behaviourists are

at, in terms of their 'quest' for science. What it says to me is behaviourists

want you to believe that your child's illness is down to behaviour, and only

THEY can 'fix' it. Truly, read through the slides in the above link and see for

yourself - very sad. everyone wants a piece of your child's progress, a slice of

the autism 'pie' that they can 'own'.

>

May 3, 2012

Does it mean we should not consider ABA as one of the therapies together with Biomed ?My son is non-verbal and we are planning to start ABA with him (He is already on Biomed for last 7 months).VarunTo: Autism-Biomedical-Europe From: lornapape@...Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 13:34:18 +0000Subject: Re: How ABAists view biomed and complimentary medicine

This is REALLY sad to read - it's just so depressing and I totally agree with you on the "slice of the pie" idea.....

Naive of me to think that they'd be happy to find something which might make our children more receptive to learning on their ABA programme ;-)

Lorna

Mum to Hugo (5) - ABA AND Biomedical for 3 years - BOTH needed IMHO.......

>

> http://www.dcc-cde.ca.gov/af/Autism%20Presentations/L.Copeland%20-%20Evidence%20on%20Complementary%20 & %20Alternative%20Medical%20Interventions.pdf

>

> This piece by a doc in the USA is indicative of where many behaviourists are at, in terms of their 'quest' for science. What it says to me is behaviourists want you to believe that your child's illness is down to behaviour, and only THEY can 'fix' it. Truly, read through the slides in the above link and see for yourself - very sad. everyone wants a piece of your child's progress, a slice of the autism 'pie' that they can 'own'.

>

May 3, 2012

I am very lucky with my ABA supervisor, she has seen the difference diet & supplements have made to Harry, she has also seen his test results and was very shocked to see just how toxic my son is. I am always forwarding her literature/information and she didnt get her own daughter vaccinated because of the information i forwarded her. x To: Autism-Biomedical-Europe From: lornapape@...Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 13:34:18 +0000Subject: Re: How ABAists view biomed and complimentary medicine

This is REALLY sad to read - it's just so depressing and I totally agree with you on the "slice of the pie" idea.....

Naive of me to think that they'd be happy to find something which might make our children more receptive to learning on their ABA programme ;-)

Lorna

Mum to Hugo (5) - ABA AND Biomedical for 3 years - BOTH needed IMHO.......

>

> http://www.dcc-cde.ca.gov/af/Autism%20Presentations/L.Copeland%20-%20Evidence%20on%20Complementary%20 & %20Alternative%20Medical%20Interventions.pdf

>

> This piece by a doc in the USA is indicative of where many behaviourists are at, in terms of their 'quest' for science. What it says to me is behaviourists want you to believe that your child's illness is down to behaviour, and only THEY can 'fix' it. Truly, read through the slides in the above link and see for yourself - very sad. everyone wants a piece of your child's progress, a slice of the autism 'pie' that they can 'own'.

>

May 3, 2012

Also anyone who says biomed, diet or ABA alone is the only thing your child will need is living in cloud cuckoo land, you need the diet/supplements to help the child learn and as good as ABA is, it doesnt teach play/social skills, we have ran an ABA program for 3.5 yrs now and we are now looking into intensive interaction, although will keep the ABA in place as it has been great for his education. x To: autism-biomedical-europe From: michelle0471@...Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 14:11:56 +0000Subject: RE: Re: How ABAists view biomed and complimentary medicine

I am very lucky with my ABA supervisor, she has seen the difference diet & supplements have made to Harry, she has also seen his test results and was very shocked to see just how toxic my son is. I am always forwarding her literature/information and she didnt get her own daughter vaccinated because of the information i forwarded her. x To: Autism-Biomedical-Europe From: lornapape@...Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 13:34:18 +0000Subject: Re: How ABAists view biomed and complimentary medicine

This is REALLY sad to read - it's just so depressing and I totally agree with you on the "slice of the pie" idea.....

Naive of me to think that they'd be happy to find something which might make our children more receptive to learning on their ABA programme ;-)

Lorna

Mum to Hugo (5) - ABA AND Biomedical for 3 years - BOTH needed IMHO.......

>

> http://www.dcc-cde.ca.gov/af/Autism%20Presentations/L.Copeland%20-%20Evidence%20on%20Complementary%20 & %20Alternative%20Medical%20Interventions.pdf

>

> This piece by a doc in the USA is indicative of where many behaviourists are at, in terms of their 'quest' for science. What it says to me is behaviourists want you to believe that your child's illness is down to behaviour, and only THEY can 'fix' it. Truly, read through the slides in the above link and see for yourself - very sad. everyone wants a piece of your child's progress, a slice of the autism 'pie' that they can 'own'.

>

May 3, 2012

I agree wholeheartedly that the biomed interventions enhance the aba or other

therapies/educational input that our children get.

I remember one of the speakers (can't remember who?) from last year's conference

summed it up for me by saying " you can teach a drunken sailor to dance, but it's

a lot easier if you sober him up first " .

This was definitely the case for my son. When he first regressed, no therapist

or teacher could reach him. And I don't think his behaviour was not

'behavioural' if that makes any sense at all? After months of 'sobering up'

through biomed, (notably, sorting out his poos via diet and abx) he developed

the capacity to learn, and then he started to respond to therapists/teachers.

They are really a important part of his progress now, but we absolutely had to

start the healing process before he could respond to them - I truly believe that

my son was (and still is) sick, but is healing, very very slowly.

Another example of healing and learning coming hand in hand - More recently, he

learnt to pee in the toilet after months and months of trying (I'm so so

happy!). This happened within a week fo starting Azithromycin and after 3

rounds of ala. The aba was important here, but in my view, the breakthrough

came from the biomed.

> >

http://www.dcc-cde.ca.gov/af/Autism%20Presentations/L.Copeland%20-%20Evidence%20\

on%20Complementary%20 & %20Alternative%20Medical%20Interventions.pdf

> >

> > This piece by a doc in the USA is indicative of where many behaviourists are

at, in terms of their 'quest' for science. What it says to me is behaviourists

want you to believe that your child's illness is down to behaviour, and only

THEY can 'fix' it. Truly, read through the slides in the above link and see for

yourself - very sad. everyone wants a piece of your child's progress, a slice of

the autism 'pie' that they can 'own'.

> >

>

May 3, 2012

I think it remains the case that there is better evidence for the effectiveness

of ABA as an early intervention in autism than for any other educational

approach. My son had the usual rubbish from the local education authority and

NHS - nothing, then 5 years of an appalling special school - until he was 7 1/2.

He wouldn't sit down, wouldn't hold a pencil, wouldn't make a mark on the page.

ABA taught him to learn and that learning was enjoyable. It taught him to read,

to write, basic maths, to ice skate and to ride a bike.

He carried on going to the rubbish local authority special school as well,

supposedly for his social development. When I checked he couldn't even name a

single one of the children in his class. He moved from the bottom stream of his

special school to the top one because of ABA - but the school wouldn't give us

the credit.

Children vary in their capacity to learn and this capacity is also affected by

how healthy they are and how their brain is developing, so biomed IMHO is a good

idea too. ABA isn't a magic bullet and programmes vary in their approach and in

their quality as well as in their intensity. If you can afford it I recommend

you give it a go. My son has severe autism and learning disability, so we were

never expecting a magic result.But the eclectic approach of the local authority

was worse than useless. (We used a form of ABA called Verbal Behaviour, BTW.)

If you visit the website of Research Autism, ABA is unclassified as an

intervention. However if you look on the RA website for EIBI (early intensive

behavioural intervention - a little-known generic name for ABA for very young

children) you will see it gets a high recommendation.

Margaret

>

> >

>

> >

http://www.dcc-cde.ca.gov/af/Autism%20Presentations/L.Copeland%20-%20Evidence%20\

on%20Complementary%20 & %20Alternative%20Medical%20Interventions.pdf

>

> >

>

> > This piece by a doc in the USA is indicative of where many behaviourists are

at, in terms of their 'quest' for science. What it says to me is behaviourists

want you to believe that your child's illness is down to behaviour, and only

THEY can 'fix' it. Truly, read through the slides in the above link and see for

yourself - very sad. everyone wants a piece of your child's progress, a slice of

the autism 'pie' that they can 'own'.

>

> >

>

May 3, 2012

PS: I don't think you can conclude anything much about the motivation of ABA

professionals from viewing a set of slides when you haven't heard the talk that

goes with them amd son't know who the audiuence was, what the status of the talk

was nor how it was received. Biomed is outside the competence of Behaviour

Analysts, that's all, basically.

Margaret

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

http://www.dcc-cde.ca.gov/af/Autism%20Presentations/L.Copeland%20-%20Evidence%20\

on%20Complementary%20 & %20Alternative%20Medical%20Interventions.pdf

> >

> > >

> >

> > > This piece by a doc in the USA is indicative of where many behaviourists

are at, in terms of their 'quest' for science. What it says to me is

behaviourists want you to believe that your child's illness is down to

behaviour, and only THEY can 'fix' it. Truly, read through the slides in the

above link and see for yourself - very sad. everyone wants a piece of your

child's progress, a slice of the autism 'pie' that they can 'own'.

> >

> > >

> >

>

May 4, 2012

Totally agree with you , no one thing will ever sort out children

completely but I would say that ABA can actually teach those things too - our

son learnt social skills and play skills whilst on his ABA programme - not sure

if it depends on what age you start but we started at 3 and our son had

programmes for all sorts of role play / pretend play / social greetings etc.

stuff and he now has really well developed play skills - breakthroughs

definitely happened with diet (we had toilet training cracked after SCD)but I

would strongly say that ABA / VB can teach play skills too.

Lorna

x

>

> Also anyone who says biomed, diet or ABA alone is the only thing your child

will need is living in cloud cuckoo land, you need the diet/supplements to help

the child learn and as good as ABA is, it doesnt teach play/social skills, we

have ran an ABA program for 3.5 yrs now and we are now looking into intensive

interaction, although will keep the ABA in place as it has been great for his

education. x

> To: autism-biomedical-europe

> From: michelle0471@...

> Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 14:11:56 +0000

> Subject: RE: Re: How ABAists view biomed and

complimentary medicine

> >

>

May 4, 2012

Absolutely. Have just finished battling to get funding for 6th form placement for my son. Never so clearly have the vultures been seen. They also disappeared in a flash once funding was confirmed and there was no more money to be made out of our situation. Horrible.

May 6, 2012

Having run both a VB/ABA program for 6 years along with biomed I would say that

they work together wonderfully. The biomed allowed my son to be available for

learning and the VB taught him the skills that he needed.

As far as what my ABA/VB consultant thought/think of biomed? ly, I couldn't

give a toss. I liased with the tutors as needed when starting new biomed regimes

and they gave feedback as to behavioural changes and I adjusted accordingly.

Never once have I asked anyone on the ABA/VB team's opinion about biomed, I have

just done it and the effects and benefits have been taken into account during

his teaching sessions.

Even now, when he is 8 years old, we take into account his physical state, his

health and his mental/emotional state EVERY SINGLE DAY on his program. Every

single morning we (the team) discuss his sleep, his " worries " , and his physical

state so that these factors are taken into consideration during his therapy.

ABA/VB unequivocably taught my son social skills and play skills - what else

could be taught to a 2 year old but play skills? Throughout his 6 years on

ABA/VB, surveys of his peers interests were taken and these

toys/movies/activities were taught on his program and his independent play

skills were constantly monitored and taught. When we started, his play skills

consisted of moving a pile of toys (blocks, cars, whatever) from one pile to

another pile. That was it. I will never forget the day that he finally touched

play dough after pairing it with other things that he would touch and lots of

hooplah and fuss over any progress. And 5 1/2 years later he still enjoys play

dough (although now he plays with it with his action adventure figurines, lol).

The VB-MAPP which is the updated ABLLS that should be being used on VB programs

has specific developmental play and social skills - both individual and in

groups. My son now after 6 years of ABA/VB does not need to be taught play

skills, he acquires new, age appropriate play skills spontaneously - this is

because he was taught how to learn to play, not just run through " play

programs " . The play that is now used on his program is imaginative play and the

tutors play along with him and interject problem solving scenarios and emotional

regulatory strategies.

However I will say that I never ever stuck with any tutor or supervisor who told

me to put any bids for communication (no matter how poor they were, i.e.

screaming) on extinction (i.e. to ignore them) or who would not take into

consideration his physical health, eating habits, sleeping patterns and

emotional states. And there are bad ABA programs in which absolutely no

consideration is given to these imperatives.

After 3 years on his ABA/VB program which included primarily play-based therapy

my son was assessed by a specialist who said that given his imaginative play

skills and his flexible thinking he would be disqualified from the ASD

diagnosis. That is what biomed and ABA/VB did for him.

However, there is a lot of bad ABA out there just as there are a lot of other

really bad therapies out there - including many many charlatan biomed

practitioners. And there are biomed vultures just as there are ABA vultures.

And they are out there, parents, be very very cautious.

Also, ABA simply cannot be broadstroked into a " category " and saying " ABA this "

and " ABA that " is meaningless because there is so much difference between

programs. I have seen very bad ABA and I have seen very bad SLT, OT and other

therapies (even worse than any is the " neglect " therapies where nothing is done

to help the child acquire any skills whatsoever).

What we have found, after all these years of VB is that our son now needs

emotional regulatory strategies, strategies for self-talk and meta-cognitive

strategies. We switched to a SCERTS program (which in many ways is very good

ABA/VB as per one of the founders who commented this to me) and our son has

taken off in his emotional regulatory capacity and we are thrilled. This was

not something that we saw could be taught on his VB program.

As much as I endorse good ABA/VB, I do not think it a panacea for all children,

it is not appropriate for every child on the spectrum, they are all so very

different.

I wish only the best for all of our children and hope that whatever support we

can provide for them helps them to flourish and grow.

Darla

> >

> > Also anyone who says biomed, diet or ABA alone is the only thing your child

will need is living in cloud cuckoo land, you need the diet/supplements to help

the child learn and as good as ABA is, it doesnt teach play/social skills, we

have ran an ABA program for 3.5 yrs now and we are now looking into intensive

interaction, although will keep the ABA in place as it has been great for his

education. x

> > To: autism-biomedical-europe

> > From: michelle0471@

> > Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 14:11:56 +0000

> > Subject: RE: Re: How ABAists view biomed and

complimentary medicine

>

> > >

> >

>

May 7, 2012

What a fantastic explanation Darla!! I could not agree more with everything

you've said and I'm so pleased to hear what fantastic progress your son as made.

I also agree with you that unfortunately, any programme is only ever as good as

the people delivering it - we too have been phenomenally lucky with our tutors

and Programme manager but I know not everyone else is - definitely pays to

beware as you say.....

Hope the SCERTS programme continues to bring benefits for you all :-)

Best wishes,

Lorna

x

>

> Having run both a VB/ABA program for 6 years along with biomed I would say

that they work together wonderfully. The biomed allowed my son to be available

for learning and the VB taught him the skills that he needed.

>

> As far as what my ABA/VB consultant thought/think of biomed? ly, I

couldn't give a toss. I liased with the tutors as needed when starting new

biomed regimes and they gave feedback as to behavioural changes and I adjusted

accordingly. Never once have I asked anyone on the ABA/VB team's opinion about

biomed, I have just done it and the effects and benefits have been taken into

account during his teaching sessions.

>

> Even now, when he is 8 years old, we take into account his physical state, his

health and his mental/emotional state EVERY SINGLE DAY on his program. Every

single morning we (the team) discuss his sleep, his " worries " , and his physical

state so that these factors are taken into consideration during his therapy.

>

> ABA/VB unequivocably taught my son social skills and play skills - what else

could be taught to a 2 year old but play skills? Throughout his 6 years on

ABA/VB, surveys of his peers interests were taken and these

toys/movies/activities were taught on his program and his independent play

skills were constantly monitored and taught. When we started, his play skills

consisted of moving a pile of toys (blocks, cars, whatever) from one pile to

another pile. That was it. I will never forget the day that he finally touched

play dough after pairing it with other things that he would touch and lots of

hooplah and fuss over any progress. And 5 1/2 years later he still enjoys play

dough (although now he plays with it with his action adventure figurines, lol).

>

> The VB-MAPP which is the updated ABLLS that should be being used on VB

programs has specific developmental play and social skills - both individual and

in groups. My son now after 6 years of ABA/VB does not need to be taught play

skills, he acquires new, age appropriate play skills spontaneously - this is

because he was taught how to learn to play, not just run through " play

programs " . The play that is now used on his program is imaginative play and the

tutors play along with him and interject problem solving scenarios and emotional

regulatory strategies.

>

> However I will say that I never ever stuck with any tutor or supervisor who

told me to put any bids for communication (no matter how poor they were, i.e.

screaming) on extinction (i.e. to ignore them) or who would not take into

consideration his physical health, eating habits, sleeping patterns and

emotional states. And there are bad ABA programs in which absolutely no

consideration is given to these imperatives.

>

> After 3 years on his ABA/VB program which included primarily play-based

therapy my son was assessed by a specialist who said that given his imaginative

play skills and his flexible thinking he would be disqualified from the ASD

diagnosis. That is what biomed and ABA/VB did for him.

>

> However, there is a lot of bad ABA out there just as there are a lot of other

really bad therapies out there - including many many charlatan biomed

practitioners. And there are biomed vultures just as there are ABA vultures.

And they are out there, parents, be very very cautious.

>

> Also, ABA simply cannot be broadstroked into a " category " and saying " ABA

this " and " ABA that " is meaningless because there is so much difference between

programs. I have seen very bad ABA and I have seen very bad SLT, OT and other

therapies (even worse than any is the " neglect " therapies where nothing is done

to help the child acquire any skills whatsoever).

>

> What we have found, after all these years of VB is that our son now needs

emotional regulatory strategies, strategies for self-talk and meta-cognitive

strategies. We switched to a SCERTS program (which in many ways is very good

ABA/VB as per one of the founders who commented this to me) and our son has

taken off in his emotional regulatory capacity and we are thrilled. This was

not something that we saw could be taught on his VB program.

>

> As much as I endorse good ABA/VB, I do not think it a panacea for all

children, it is not appropriate for every child on the spectrum, they are all so

very different.

>

> I wish only the best for all of our children and hope that whatever support we

can provide for them helps them to flourish and grow.

>

> Darla

>

May 8, 2012

I don't see how ABA and VB can ever teach play as opposed to 'play skills'

(whatever those are). Play by definition is internally motivated, involves the

child taking the lead, experimenting, exploring, making sense of things

internally and taking risks at their own level. Play does not involve external

motivators, or direction from anyone!!!!

May 8, 2012

Well this is all so interesting, obvious to me heal the body and mind, a pity

that behavioural science is so narrow in that belief that they conduct

self-fulflling, biased, skewed research.

On the social skills front, we conducted a ABA/VB home program for our son, for

4 years full time, and he continues at a great ABA school. However on the play

front, my feeling is ABA could not teach play skills in the way neurologically

they appear to develop in your average NT child. Add to that social skills,

which in young kids develop through play.

If somebody ripped off your arm, would you want a new arm to grow, or a false

arm fitted. I liken ABA/VB (and we did NET, natural environment training) and

play skills to teaching a child who has lost an arm, and giving them a

prothesis. A false arm. Better than nothing.

Whereas intensive interaction is giving us the growing of a new arm, so to

speak. And that I wish I had learned years ago. With my child to saw that ABA

can give you progress but the core deficit (sorry to use that word, can't think

of another) in Autism is social. And if you are externally reinforcing a child

for playing how is that addressing the social skill to understand that playing

is reinforcing in itself. How does it teach independent thinking and

spontaneity? If it did we missed it.

We need intensive interaction here and are benefiting from it and also from a

great lady Jane Stooks who sings off the same hymn sheet. Haven't seen Jane for

a while but I recommend her. It is taking courage from me to look at my son and

say, well we were in a nice ABA shaped rut but have to to move out of it for his

sake. I think you can get comfortable with it, too comfortable. School wise,

like , the structure of ABA helps but at home we are moving away from it

because it is a waste of time, its not good for our relationship with him and

how we interact in the house. I am not " reinforcing " him for the rest of his

life. I see II as a bridge to independent normal life.

Not in any way critical of any therapy any one is doing, everyone has got their

own road to tread. Interesting though. Think 's approach will mean

that she can wean off ABA perhaps more quickly to a more natural way of learning

for Harry perhaps.

When was at his most severe when younger, I thought ABA was the only

answer because I saw quick results. Some people have got no choice they think,

but looking back I could have used Intensive Interaction sooner, that's just us.

But to each his own, every time.

Eileen xxxx

May 8, 2012

, I would describe play exactly as you have - internally motivated, child taking the lead, experimenting, exploring and making sense of things internally and taking risks at their own level - exactly!

And this can be taught on a VB program but the critical (and central) issue is that the child choses to engage in the play and exploration and is not externally reinforced for this - i.e. the engagement with an item or his environment IS the motivating factor. I am probably not very good at explaining this because I have long since abandoned the academics of the program and my husband is, by far, more well versed in this than I am but here I go anyway...

I remember when we started VB our biggest concern was that would not develop critical thinking skills - i.e. the ability to make sense of the world for himself and make his own reasoned decisions to take risks, explore and engage with his environment. (or to " self-actualise " which is a developmental result of play skills - right? that's not a rhetorical question, I'm asking because you are studying this stuff!)

Anyway, we realised that central to the development of critical thinking was the idea that he must always chose to engage with the tutors and/or the environment himself and that the objects and teaching must be intrinsically motivating. He must chose to learn, he must chose to explore, he must chose to take risks based on his feelings and thoughts about the environment around him. And he has learned to do this (but it is very hard work for the adults, I will say that much, which is why being skillful at " establishing operations " or learning to manipulate the environment rather than the child is so important).

It is also important to note that while he was taught by adults to use his imagination - i.e. that a block can be a " rocket " (or whatever), once he realised that the children around him were often " imagining " things, (i.e. he internalised the learning and it helped him to make sense of his environment) then he was able to expand on that idea and began independently engaging in imaginative play with his peers. (This sounds so simple but it was hard work!) He still loves playing imaginative play and role play and participating in drama but the whole idea of abstract thinking (and I use that to mean " thinking beyond the literal " ) had to be quite literally introduced to him and demonstrated in a way that he could understand and in a way that was purposeful and meaningful to him and, of course, in a way that he chose to engage with, i.e. was not externally motivated.

Now when the tutors " play " with him, it is at his request that they have scenarios with the action figurines and the tutors play that the figurines get into " troubles " or problems or whatever and he comes up with ideas to " save the day " and solve the problem. Obviously these are contrived scenarios and are not " play " in the strictest definition of the word but the " play " that he does with the tutors he subsequently expands on and develops when he is on his own.

One of the key ways that I know that he takes risks when playing independently is because he wants to be alone (both with and without peers), i.e. he finds it embarassing that we see him playing and I remember feeling this as a child and it was because I was exploring an idea or scenario that I perceived to be " risky " or " adventurous " and I wanted to explore that idea in privacy (although obviously I did not ever think of it in those terms, I just knew that I didn't want anyone to see me!)

And as far as peer play, again, he has these skills and he plays for hours with his peers unfacilitated. However, his negotiation and arguing skills are still lagging (when arguing with peers he tends to address them as if he were an adult - obviously as a result of having so much 1:1 input) and frankly, kids his age spend a heck of a lot of time arguing about what they are going to do as much as they spend actually doing it! We are addressing these skills but it is much easier now because we can simply have conversations with him about these things because he is interested to discuss them and to understand better how to engage with his peers.

Anyway, I don't know that it's really important that we agree - again, it is difficult to characterise any ABA/VB program as being like any other program, clearly there are programs where rote " play " is being taught with external motivation and I can't argue against that - as Eileen said, it's better than nothing. However, there is evidence that even rote externally motivated play that is taught can be internalised and expanded on once children conceptualises the ideas but I suspect that this internalisation is disputed amongst the different developmental theorists.

As far as social skills - oh dear, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, lol. and I'm not explaining myself very well anyway and need to do the laundry!!!Darla x

I don't see how ABA and VB can ever teach play as opposed to 'play skills' (whatever those are). Play by definition is internally motivated, involves the child taking the lead, experimenting, exploring, making sense of things internally and taking risks at their own level. Play does not involve external motivators, or direction from anyone!!!!

May 8, 2012

Just chiming in here, doesn't play, he didn't "learn" to play from pairing but rather went along with something in order to get the motivator [sweet], we could say he was too old when he started the programme at 12yrs but then I know other kids who did programmes not always ABA but the whole 40 hours from pre-school and they don't play either and have no real interests as older teens.

The one thing has in common with these children is that they are all very profoundly autistic.

Is that not the best indicator of outcome?

Vicky

Re: Re: How ABAists view biomed and complimentary medicine

, I would describe play exactly as you have - internally motivated, child taking the lead, experimenting, exploring and making sense of things internally and taking risks at their own level - exactly!

And this can be taught on a VB program but the critical (and central) issue is that the child choses to engage in the play and exploration and is not externally reinforced for this - i.e. the engagement with an item or his environment IS the motivating factor. I am probably not very good at explaining this because I have long since abandoned the academics of the program and my husband is, by far, more well versed in this than I am but here I go anyway...

I remember when we started VB our biggest concern was that would not develop critical thinking skills - i.e. the ability to make sense of the world for himself and make his own reasoned decisions to take risks, explore and engage with his environment. (or to "self-actualise" which is a developmental result of play skills - right? that's not a rhetorical question, I'm asking because you are studying this stuff!)

Anyway, we realised that central to the development of critical thinking was the idea that he must always chose to engage with the tutors and/or the environment himself and that the objects and teaching must be intrinsically motivating. He must chose to learn, he must chose to explore, he must chose to take risks based on his feelings and thoughts about the environment around him. And he has learned to do this (but it is very hard work for the adults, I will say that much, which is why being skillful at "establishing operations" or learning to manipulate the environment rather than the child is so important).

It is also important to note that while he was taught by adults to use his imagination - i.e. that a block can be a "rocket" (or whatever), once he realised that the children around him were often "imagining" things, (i.e. he internalised the learning and it helped him to make sense of his environment) then he was able to expand on that idea and began independently engaging in imaginative play with his peers. (This sounds so simple but it was hard work!) He still loves playing imaginative play and role play and participating in drama but the whole idea of abstract thinking (and I use that to mean "thinking beyond the literal") had to be quite literally introduced to him and demonstrated in a way that he could understand and in a way that was purposeful and meaningful to him and, of course, in a way that he chose to engage with, i.e. was not externally motivated.

Now when the tutors "play" with him, it is at his request that they have scenarios with the action figurines and the tutors play that the figurines get into "troubles" or problems or whatever and he comes up with ideas to "save the day" and solve the problem. Obviously these are contrived scenarios and are not "play" in the strictest definition of the word but the "play" that he does with the tutors he subsequently expands on and develops when he is on his own.

One of the key ways that I know that he takes risks when playing independently is because he wants to be alone (both with and without peers), i.e. he finds it embarassing that we see him playing and I remember feeling this as a child and it was because I was exploring an idea or scenario that I perceived to be "risky" or "adventurous" and I wanted to explore that idea in privacy (although obviously I did not ever think of it in those terms, I just knew that I didn't want anyone to see me!)

And as far as peer play, again, he has these skills and he plays for hours with his peers unfacilitated. However, his negotiation and arguing skills are still lagging (when arguing with peers he tends to address them as if he were an adult - obviously as a result of having so much 1:1 input) and frankly, kids his age spend a heck of a lot of time arguing about what they are going to do as much as they spend actually doing it! We are addressing these skills but it is much easier now because we can simply have conversations with him about these things because he is interested to discuss them and to understand better how to engage with his peers.

Anyway, I don't know that it's really important that we agree - again, it is difficult to characterise any ABA/VB program as being like any other program, clearly there are programs where rote "play" is being taught with external motivation and I can't argue against that - as Eileen said, it's better than nothing. However, there is evidence that even rote externally motivated play that is taught can be internalised and expanded on once children conceptualises the ideas but I suspect that this internalisation is disputed amongst the different developmental theorists.

As far as social skills - oh dear, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, lol. and I'm not explaining myself very well anyway and need to do the laundry!!!

Darla x

I don't see how ABA and VB can ever teach play as opposed to 'play skills' (whatever those are). Play by definition is internally motivated, involves the child taking the lead, experimenting, exploring, making sense of things internally and taking risks at their own level. Play does not involve external motivators, or direction from anyone!!!!

May 9, 2012

(and everyone else!),

I feel a bit bad about chiming in again - especially as it was me I think who

might have started this off by saying that I thought ABA could teach " play

skills " - whatever they are....

I too am genuinely interested in some of the theory as I would freely admit that

I really understood very little about the theory behind Hugo's programme and

still don't necessarily - I have a younger child too and so for much of the

home-based programme I too was always doing laundry or potty training or tidying

up or in fact reading about biomed stuff....

But I can only go on my 'untrained' observations of Hugo and the fact that he

did end up sounding VERY like Darla's son in that he engages in imaginative

play, was not rewarded for 'playing' as he found it motivating in itself and now

leads play with his peers in what seems to me and indeed others who observe him

at school to be a very natural way. I am very interested in Intensive

interaction and indeed RDI and will be having to look carefully at which of the

workshops I want to go to at the TA Conference as it may well be that there are

elements of these which could well benefit us now - after all there isn't really

a one-size fits all solution otherwise we wouldn't be on this board I

suspect....

However, the only point I would make is that I was simply trying to respond to

the point that ABA / VB " can't " teach certain things or that certain skills

" can't " be taught. I think that like everything, for some people perhaps an ABA

/ VB programme might not be the best fit and a different one might work better

for their child or to give them results which they are happier with. I know

from some of your posts that you had what sounds like an awful experience

with ABA and I totally understand why you feel as you do about it. However,

that simply hasn't been our experience with the PEACH run programme we have

followed and we have thankfully never experienced the things which you have

previously described. We may well have reached the same point or indeed a

better point with Hugo if we'd followed a different programme - I'll never know,

but I know that we feel that the position he is in in relation to playing with

other children and being sociable with them and other adults is a good one -

thanks to ABA / VB which was the only programme we used. I just wanted to make

the point (and still do but just probably am not doing it very well!) that there

is sometimes more than one route to the same end-point and ABA shouldn't just be

written off as a route because others might exist. There are some of us who

have happily travelled down that road and wouldn't wish to see others put off

because they thought it might not work for them.

Right - travel analogy over and I will leave the debate to those of you who all

know FAR more about the theory of this than I ever will - tumble drier to empty

LOL!

Lorna

x

>

> , I would describe play exactly as you have - internally motivated,

> child taking the lead, experimenting, exploring and making sense of things

> internally and taking risks at their own level - exactly!

>

> And this can be taught on a VB program but the critical (and central) issue

> is that the child choses to engage in the play and exploration and is not

> externally reinforced for this - i.e. the engagement with an item or his

> environment IS the motivating factor. I am probably not very good at

> explaining this because I have long since abandoned the academics of the

> program and my husband is, by far, more well versed in this than I am but

> here I go anyway...

>

> I remember when we started VB our biggest concern was that would not

> develop critical thinking skills - i.e. the ability to make sense of the

> world for himself and *make his own reasoned decisions* to take risks,

> explore and engage with his environment. (or to " self-actualise " which is

> a developmental result of play skills - right? that's not a rhetorical

> question, I'm asking because you are studying this stuff!)

>

> Anyway, we realised that central to the development of critical thinking

> was the idea that he must always *chose* to engage with the tutors and/or

> the environment himself and that the objects and teaching must be

> *intrinsically

> motivating*. He must chose to learn, he must chose to explore, he must

> chose to take risks based on his feelings and thoughts about the

> environment around him. And he has learned to do this (but it is very hard

> work for the adults, I will say that much, which is why being skillful at

> " establishing operations " or learning to manipulate the environment rather

> than the child is so important).

>

> It is also important to note that while he was taught by adults to use his

> imagination - i.e. that a block can be a " rocket " (or whatever), once he

> realised that the children around him were often " imagining " things, (i.e.

> he internalised the learning and it helped him to make sense of his

> environment) then he was able to expand on that idea and began

> independently engaging in imaginative play with his peers. (This sounds so

> simple but it was hard work!) He still loves playing imaginative play and

> role play and participating in drama but the whole idea of abstract

> thinking (and I use that to mean " thinking beyond the literal " ) had to be

> quite literally introduced to him and demonstrated in a way that he could

> understand and in a way that was purposeful and meaningful to him and, of

> course, in a way that he chose to engage with, i.e. was not externally

> motivated.

>

> Now when the tutors " play " with him, it is at his request that they have

> scenarios with the action figurines and the tutors play that the figurines

> get into " troubles " or problems or whatever and he comes up with ideas to

> " save the day " and solve the problem. Obviously these are contrived

> scenarios and are not " play " in the strictest definition of the word but

> the " play " that he does with the tutors he subsequently expands on and

> develops when he is on his own.

>

> One of the key ways that I know that he takes risks when playing

> independently is because he wants to be alone (both with and without

> peers), i.e. he finds it embarassing that we see him playing and I remember

> feeling this as a child and it was because I was exploring an idea or

> scenario that I perceived to be " risky " or " adventurous " and I wanted to

> explore that idea in privacy (although obviously I did not ever think of

> it in those terms, I just knew that I didn't want anyone to see me!)

>

> And as far as peer play, again, he has these skills and he plays for hours

> with his peers unfacilitated. However, his negotiation and arguing skills

> are still lagging (when arguing with peers he tends to address them as if

> he were an adult - obviously as a result of having so much 1:1 input) and

> frankly, kids his age spend a heck of a lot of time arguing about what they

> are going to do as much as they spend actually doing it! We are addressing

> these skills but it is much easier now because we can simply have

> conversations with him about these things because he is interested to

> discuss them and to understand better how to engage with his peers.

>

> Anyway, I don't know that it's really important that we agree - again, it

> is difficult to characterise any ABA/VB program as being like any other

> program, clearly there are programs where rote " play " is being taught with

> external motivation and I can't argue against that - as Eileen said, it's

> better than nothing. However, there is evidence that even rote externally

> motivated play that is taught can be internalised and expanded on once

> children conceptualises the ideas but I suspect that this internalisation

> is disputed amongst the different developmental theorists.

>

> As far as social skills - oh dear, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish,

> lol. and I'm not explaining myself very well anyway and need to do the

> laundry!!!

>

> Darla x

May 9, 2012

that is fab Darla and I remember it happening and chatting to you at the

time. Soemthing must have kicked in for him but it never did for tom.

May 9, 2012

Intensive interaction ( and RDI and other developmental therapies) claims to

systematically teach the type of interactions that take place at 0-12 months ,

ABA programmes don't .

At a recent II workshop, one parent asked as to what happens next? and the

presenter didn't have an answer. So II isn't the complete answer either to the

issues our children face.

One of the teaching assistant at my local special school is now an II

coordinator( so the school paid for someone to get this training) , a bit

similar to going on PECS courses ....it never quite filters down to the kids or

there is no decent follow up to ensure these therapies are being implemented

correctly or long enough to make a difference.

The LEA's love this , i.e. us arguing about the different therapies out there ,

when we are not even comparing like with like , rift amongst parents and they

don't have to answer to anyone about how their special schools and eclectic

mishmash teaching let children at the severe end /learning difficulties down so

spectacularly . Special schools for SLD cost such a lot of money and its

utterly scandalous and evil as to what most get away with.

Nina

>

> (and everyone else!),

>

> I too am genuinely interested in some of the theory as I would freely admit

that I really understood very little about the theory behind Hugo's programme

and still don't necessarily -

May 9, 2012

Yes, you know Nina when my husband and I attended the 2 day SCERTS training we were the only parents there amongst a whole slew of educators, most of whom were working in SLD schools - I cannot tell you how utterly depressing and uninterested the vast majority of them were - one of them even went so far as to tell me that her department had tossed a coin as to who " had to attend " the training as if it were some type of terrible punishment. It was hard to keep my mouth shut.

However there was one team from a school there and man were they on the ball, eager, engaged, interested, learning and responsive - I did not catch the name of their school but the kids who are educated under them are certainly fortunate. I still think about that group of women and their enthusiasm - like some kind of beacon of hope in the midst of a sea of apathy and lethargy.

II (from what I read on the website yesterday) sounds fascinating and I look forward to hearing more about it as more people take it on.

Intensive interaction ( and RDI and other developmental therapies) claims to systematically teach the type of interactions that take place at 0-12 months , ABA programmes don't .

At a recent II workshop, one parent asked as to what happens next? and the presenter didn't have an answer. So II isn't the complete answer either to the issues our children face.

One of the teaching assistant at my local special school is now an II coordinator( so the school paid for someone to get this training) , a bit similar to going on PECS courses ....it never quite filters down to the kids or there is no decent follow up to ensure these therapies are being implemented correctly or long enough to make a difference.

The LEA's love this , i.e. us arguing about the different therapies out there , when we are not even comparing like with like , rift amongst parents and they don't have to answer to anyone about how their special schools and eclectic mishmash teaching let children at the severe end /learning difficulties down so spectacularly . Special schools for SLD cost such a lot of money and its utterly scandalous and evil as to what most get away with.

Nina

>

> (and everyone else!),

>

> I too am genuinely interested in some of the theory as I would freely admit that I really understood very little about the theory behind Hugo's programme and still don't necessarily -

May 9, 2012

Hi,What is II ?Sent from my iPad

Yes, you know Nina when my husband and I attended the 2 day SCERTS training we were the only parents there amongst a whole slew of educators, most of whom were working in SLD schools - I cannot tell you how utterly depressing and uninterested the vast majority of them were - one of them even went so far as to tell me that her department had tossed a coin as to who "had to attend" the training as if it were some type of terrible punishment. It was hard to keep my mouth shut.

However there was one team from a school there and man were they on the ball, eager, engaged, interested, learning and responsive - I did not catch the name of their school but the kids who are educated under them are certainly fortunate. I still think about that group of women and their enthusiasm - like some kind of beacon of hope in the midst of a sea of apathy and lethargy.

II (from what I read on the website yesterday) sounds fascinating and I look forward to hearing more about it as more people take it on.

Intensive interaction ( and RDI and other developmental therapies) claims to systematically teach the type of interactions that take place at 0-12 months , ABA programmes don't .

At a recent II workshop, one parent asked as to what happens next? and the presenter didn't have an answer. So II isn't the complete answer either to the issues our children face.

One of the teaching assistant at my local special school is now an II coordinator( so the school paid for someone to get this training) , a bit similar to going on PECS courses ....it never quite filters down to the kids or there is no decent follow up to ensure these therapies are being implemented correctly or long enough to make a difference.

The LEA's love this , i.e. us arguing about the different therapies out there , when we are not even comparing like with like , rift amongst parents and they don't have to answer to anyone about how their special schools and eclectic mishmash teaching let children at the severe end /learning difficulties down so spectacularly . Special schools for SLD cost such a lot of money and its utterly scandalous and evil as to what most get away with.

Nina

>

> (and everyone else!),

>

> I too am genuinely interested in some of the theory as I would freely admit that I really understood very little about the theory behind Hugo's programme and still don't necessarily -

May 10, 2012

YES Nina, Good point. Intensive Interaction replicates natural

parent-infant interaction in the first year and a bit beyond. What is

taught during those natural interactions is highly complex and is,

generally speaking, missing for our kdis with autism. EVEN those who are

higher functioning. (I.I. has been traditionally used with more severe

and non-verbal people only but works just as well with anyone who needs

that learning. II need not be done in isolation if you feel your child

needs otgher skills too.) However yes, it does not then go on to teach

maths or how to ride a bike. Although once fully connected, co-regulated

etc. this sort of learning should be easier (as it is for the typical

child). It's worth pointing out that there is some crossover between

I.I., Son-Rise, Floor-time and RDI - although II is by far my

favourite, (happy to explain the differences and similarities in-depth

to anyone that wants to ask me off list) but that ABA and VB are very

very different approaches.

We have personally experienced (and done properly !!) ABA, VB and RDI,

now II. We have dabbled in SR and have no experience of FT.

Sara x

May 10, 2012

Sara,Would you mind explaining how RDI and II differ in both theory and practice? If it isn't too difficult/complex question to answer.Thanks,Darla