Re: How ABAists view biomed and complimentary ...

May 3, 2012

Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Mx

Another example of healing and learning coming hand in hand - More recently, he learnt to pee in the toilet after months and months of trying (I'm so so happy!). This happened within a week fo starting Azithromycin and after 3 rounds of ala. The aba was important here, but in my view, the breakthrough came from the biomed.

May 9, 2012

Lorna how would you describe your sons severity before ABA/VB?

One child I spent a lot of time with him and his mum, graduated from ABLLS, ie he finished the programme, so exciting, he could say where is it, what is it, who is it, why is it and play appropriately with peers but I would say at a slightly younger age than he was at the time (6), functional clear speech but not a great conversationalist................now at Sam's school (after failing in mainstream and home RDI which mum never really owned because she was such a die hard ABAer) naked in the corner shouting with 2 members of staff just quietly keeping him safe, so sad. She did stop biomed (diet enzymes and not much else) saying he was fine as he was............we don't see each other now!

I know this kid still has all these skills but what use are they to him without his health? Certainly after all that hard work I would say he is twice as severe as Sam in terms on how it effects his daily life. It makes me feel less guilty about not doing ABA but in my heart I know, like son rise Sam would have hated. Sam I think is intensive interaction type kid.

Don't remember now why I am writing all this, just back from hospital arguing toss with Paed registrar about our kids immune systems so please excuse me

Mx

(and everyone else!),I feel a bit bad about chiming in again - especially as it was me I think who might have started this off by saying that I thought ABA could teach "play skills" - whatever they are....I too am genuinely interested in some of the theory as I would freely admit that I really understood very little about the theory behind Hugo's programme and still don't necessarily - I have a younger child too and so for much of the home-based programme I too was always doing laundry or potty training or tidying up or in fact reading about biomed stuff.... But I can only go on my 'untrained' observations of Hugo and the fact that he did end up sounding VERY like Darla's son in that he engages in imaginative play, was not rewarded for 'playing' as he found it motivating in itself and now leads play with his peers in what seems to me and indeed others who observe him at school to be a very natural way. I am very interested in Intensive interaction and indeed RDI and will be having to look carefully at which of the workshops I want to go to at the TA Conference as it may well be that there are elements of these which could well benefit us now - after all there isn't really a one-size fits all solution otherwise we wouldn't be on this board I suspect....However, the only point I would make is that I was simply trying to respond to the point that ABA / VB "can't" teach certain things or that certain skills "can't" be taught. I think that like everything, for some people perhaps an ABA / VB programme might not be the best fit and a different one might work better for their child or to give them results which they are happier with. I know from some of your posts that you had what sounds like an awful experience with ABA and I totally understand why you feel as you do about it. However, that simply hasn't been our experience with the PEACH run programme we have followed and we have thankfully never experienced the things which you have previously described. We may well have reached the same point or indeed a better point with Hugo if we'd followed a different programme - I'll never know, but I know that we feel that the position he is in in relation to playing with other children and being sociable with them and other adults is a good one - thanks to ABA / VB which was the only programme we used. I just wanted to make the point (and still do but just probably am not doing it very well!) that there is sometimes more than one route to the same end-point and ABA shouldn't just be written off as a route because others might exist. There are some of us who have happily travelled down that road and wouldn't wish to see others put off because they thought it might not work for them.Right - travel analogy over and I will leave the debate to those of you who all know FAR more about the theory of this than I ever will - tumble drier to empty LOL!Lornax>> , I would describe play exactly as you have - internally motivated,> child taking the lead, experimenting, exploring and making sense of things> internally and taking risks at their own level - exactly!> > And this can be taught on a VB program but the critical (and central) issue> is that the child choses to engage in the play and exploration and is not> externally reinforced for this - i.e. the engagement with an item or his> environment IS the motivating factor. I am probably not very good at> explaining this because I have long since abandoned the academics of the> program and my husband is, by far, more well versed in this than I am but> here I go anyway...> > I remember when we started VB our biggest concern was that would not> develop critical thinking skills - i.e. the ability to make sense of the> world for himself and *make his own reasoned decisions* to take risks,> explore and engage with his environment. (or to "self-actualise" which is> a developmental result of play skills - right? that's not a rhetorical> question, I'm asking because you are studying this stuff!)> > Anyway, we realised that central to the development of critical thinking> was the idea that he must always *chose* to engage with the tutors and/or> the environment himself and that the objects and teaching must be> *intrinsically> motivating*. He must chose to learn, he must chose to explore, he must> chose to take risks based on his feelings and thoughts about the> environment around him. And he has learned to do this (but it is very hard> work for the adults, I will say that much, which is why being skillful at> "establishing operations" or learning to manipulate the environment rather> than the child is so important).> > It is also important to note that while he was taught by adults to use his> imagination - i.e. that a block can be a "rocket" (or whatever), once he> realised that the children around him were often "imagining" things, (i.e.> he internalised the learning and it helped him to make sense of his> environment) then he was able to expand on that idea and began> independently engaging in imaginative play with his peers. (This sounds so> simple but it was hard work!) He still loves playing imaginative play and> role play and participating in drama but the whole idea of abstract> thinking (and I use that to mean "thinking beyond the literal") had to be> quite literally introduced to him and demonstrated in a way that he could> understand and in a way that was purposeful and meaningful to him and, of> course, in a way that he chose to engage with, i.e. was not externally> motivated.> > Now when the tutors "play" with him, it is at his request that they have> scenarios with the action figurines and the tutors play that the figurines> get into "troubles" or problems or whatever and he comes up with ideas to> "save the day" and solve the problem. Obviously these are contrived> scenarios and are not "play" in the strictest definition of the word but> the "play" that he does with the tutors he subsequently expands on and> develops when he is on his own.> > One of the key ways that I know that he takes risks when playing> independently is because he wants to be alone (both with and without> peers), i.e. he finds it embarassing that we see him playing and I remember> feeling this as a child and it was because I was exploring an idea or> scenario that I perceived to be "risky" or "adventurous" and I wanted to> explore that idea in privacy (although obviously I did not ever think of> it in those terms, I just knew that I didn't want anyone to see me!)> > And as far as peer play, again, he has these skills and he plays for hours> with his peers unfacilitated. However, his negotiation and arguing skills> are still lagging (when arguing with peers he tends to address them as if> he were an adult - obviously as a result of having so much 1:1 input) and> frankly, kids his age spend a heck of a lot of time arguing about what they> are going to do as much as they spend actually doing it! We are addressing> these skills but it is much easier now because we can simply have> conversations with him about these things because he is interested to> discuss them and to understand better how to engage with his peers.> > Anyway, I don't know that it's really important that we agree - again, it> is difficult to characterise any ABA/VB program as being like any other> program, clearly there are programs where rote "play" is being taught with> external motivation and I can't argue against that - as Eileen said, it's> better than nothing. However, there is evidence that even rote externally> motivated play that is taught can be internalised and expanded on once> children conceptualises the ideas but I suspect that this internalisation> is disputed amongst the different developmental theorists.> > As far as social skills - oh dear, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish,> lol. and I'm not explaining myself very well anyway and need to do the> laundry!!!> > Darla x

May 9, 2012

Intensive interaction, search on youtube for some examples

http://www.intensiveinteraction.co.uk/

Sara is our resident expert, she might have better inks for you. ITs one of the therapies on offer at the TA conference in September if you want to learn more

Mx

Hi,

What is II ?

Sent from my iPad

Yes, you know Nina when my husband and I attended the 2 day SCERTS training we were the only parents there amongst a whole slew of educators, most of whom were working in SLD schools - I cannot tell you how utterly depressing and uninterested the vast majority of them were - one of them even went so far as to tell me that her department had tossed a coin as to who "had to attend" the training as if it were some type of terrible punishment. It was hard to keep my mouth shut.

However there was one team from a school there and man were they on the ball, eager, engaged, interested, learning and responsive - I did not catch the name of their school but the kids who are educated under them are certainly fortunate. I still think about that group of women and their enthusiasm - like some kind of beacon of hope in the midst of a sea of apathy and lethargy.

II (from what I read on the website yesterday) sounds fascinating and I look forward to hearing more about it as more people take it on.

Intensive interaction ( and RDI and other developmental therapies) claims to systematically teach the type of interactions that take place at 0-12 months , ABA programmes don't . At a recent II workshop, one parent asked as to what happens next? and the presenter didn't have an answer. So II isn't the complete answer either to the issues our children face.One of the teaching assistant at my local special school is now an II coordinator( so the school paid for someone to get this training) , a bit similar to going on PECS courses ....it never quite filters down to the kids or there is no decent follow up to ensure these therapies are being implemented correctly or long enough to make a difference.The LEA's love this , i.e. us arguing about the different therapies out there , when we are not even comparing like with like , rift amongst parents and they don't have to answer to anyone about how their special schools and eclectic mishmash teaching let children at the severe end /learning difficulties down so spectacularly . Special schools for SLD cost such a lot of money and its utterly scandalous and evil as to what most get away with.Nina

>> (and everyone else!),> > I too am genuinely interested in some of the theory as I would freely admit that I really understood very little about the theory behind Hugo's programme and still don't necessarily -

May 9, 2012

Thank you. I realised after mailing it should be that!Sent from my iPad

Intensive interaction, search on youtube for some examples

http://www.intensiveinteraction.co.uk/

Sara is our resident expert, she might have better inks for you. ITs one of the therapies on offer at the TA conference in September if you want to learn more

Mx

Hi,

What is II ?

Sent from my iPad

Yes, you know Nina when my husband and I attended the 2 day SCERTS training we were the only parents there amongst a whole slew of educators, most of whom were working in SLD schools - I cannot tell you how utterly depressing and uninterested the vast majority of them were - one of them even went so far as to tell me that her department had tossed a coin as to who "had to attend" the training as if it were some type of terrible punishment. It was hard to keep my mouth shut.

However there was one team from a school there and man were they on the ball, eager, engaged, interested, learning and responsive - I did not catch the name of their school but the kids who are educated under them are certainly fortunate. I still think about that group of women and their enthusiasm - like some kind of beacon of hope in the midst of a sea of apathy and lethargy.

II (from what I read on the website yesterday) sounds fascinating and I look forward to hearing more about it as more people take it on.

Intensive interaction ( and RDI and other developmental therapies) claims to systematically teach the type of interactions that take place at 0-12 months , ABA programmes don't . At a recent II workshop, one parent asked as to what happens next? and the presenter didn't have an answer. So II isn't the complete answer either to the issues our children face.One of the teaching assistant at my local special school is now an II coordinator( so the school paid for someone to get this training) , a bit similar to going on PECS courses ....it never quite filters down to the kids or there is no decent follow up to ensure these therapies are being implemented correctly or long enough to make a difference.The LEA's love this , i.e. us arguing about the different therapies out there , when we are not even comparing like with like , rift amongst parents and they don't have to answer to anyone about how their special schools and eclectic mishmash teaching let children at the severe end /learning difficulties down so spectacularly . Special schools for SLD cost such a lot of money and its utterly scandalous and evil as to what most get away with.Nina

>> (and everyone else!),> > I too am genuinely interested in some of the theory as I would freely admit that I really understood very little about the theory behind Hugo's programme and still don't necessarily -

May 9, 2012

Hi Mandi,

I think maybe in my long rambling posts (sorry!) it may have got a bit confused

- I would NEVER suggest that any skill is worth anything without health and in

fact, my original posts were saying exactly that - we did the ABA in tandem with

biomedical (mainly diet at that stage) stuff and I would say that Hugo's gains

were absolutely down to both things -without one we wouldn't have got the other.

Through this board in particular I have had my eyes opened to quite how many

ways there are to potentially improve our children's health and this aspect is

very much my continuing focus now.

In terms of severity, I never actually did the ATEC score for example, as I

wasn't actually aware of it when we first started. If I was to reconstruct

things now, I would say that Hugo certainly wasn't at the most severe end, but

that he had lost lots of skills and was sinking fast, with hindsight. He

retained words (echolalia mainly) but was saying those oddly in a lot of cases.

He was VERY rigid over routines, behaviours, spent much of the day screaming if

things didn't go his way, was violent towards his younger brother and showed

zero interest in peers really - (he was 3). He had no ability to play

imaginatively, didn't know what to do with toys and spent most of his days

obsessing over the same episodes of Postman Pat or short clips of films with

lorries in on Youtube (he couldn't eat any meals without those playing on a

loops....)

I think that's very, very sad indeed about your ex-friend and I would never seek

to say " I'm finished " - I feel like you would never be able to say that and I

feel like I'll spend the rest of my life hoping that gains don't disappear and

that new ones will be made as Hugo's NT peers all make gains and I would like

him to keep up. I also wouldn't want to think that I had a closed mind to

things - hence why I would like to find out more about the other things like II

/ RDI to see whether they can offer anything of use too.

I didn't know about anything else so I can't say that Hugo would've been an II

or anything else child - I constantly try to stop " wishing I'd found out about

something sooner " - I think it could send you mad with our children LOL!! The

same goes for worrying about not doing things or feeling guilty about it. I am

truly in awe of everything you've done with Sam and don't really feel qualified

to say so, but I wouldn't worry about not adding ABA to the extensive list if I

were you..... I was just trying to say that it's possible that some children are

'ABA children' too - provided it's done well, with people who want the best for

our children and have an open mind to the myriad of potential helpful options

that are out there.......

Anyway, probably too late to be expressing myself clearly now so apologies!

Lorna

xxx

>

> Lorna how would you describe your sons severity before ABA/VB?

>

> One child I spent a lot of time with him and his mum, graduated from ABLLS,

> ie he finished the programme, so exciting, he could say where is it, what

> is it, who is it, why is it and play appropriately with peers but I would

> say at a slightly younger age than he was at the time (6), functional clear

> speech but not a great conversationalist................now at Sam's school

> (after failing in mainstream and home RDI which mum never really owned

> because she was such a die hard ABAer) naked in the corner shouting with 2

> members of staff just quietly keeping him safe, so sad. She did stop biomed

> (diet enzymes and not much else) saying he was fine as he was............we

> don't see each other now!

>

> I know this kid still has all these skills but what use are they to him

> without his health? Certainly after all that hard work I would say he is twice

> as severe as Sam in terms on how it effects his daily life. It makes me

> feel less guilty about not doing ABA but in my heart I know, like son rise

> Sam would have hated. Sam I think is intensive interaction type kid.

>

> Don't remember now why I am writing all this, just back from hospital

> arguing toss with Paed registrar about our kids immune systems so please

excuse

> me

> Mx

>

May 9, 2012

For me, all of the therapies can have their place with kids, and we certainly

use a blend. I personally think that all any of the therapy developers has done

is taken aspects of how we raise our kids (when they haven't been damaged) and

emphasized bits and pieces. I don't think there is one therapy that is good for

all kids, because each one as far as I can tell is incomplete.

But, it comes down to this: a therapy is only as good as the person providing

it, and if your child is still desperately ill, even the most gifted and devoted

therapist won't make much of a difference.

Anita

> >

> > Lorna how would you describe your sons severity before ABA/VB?

> >

> > One child I spent a lot of time with him and his mum, graduated from ABLLS,

> > ie he finished the programme, so exciting, he could say where is it, what

> > is it, who is it, why is it and play appropriately with peers but I would

> > say at a slightly younger age than he was at the time (6), functional clear

> > speech but not a great conversationalist................now at Sam's school

> > (after failing in mainstream and home RDI which mum never really owned

> > because she was such a die hard ABAer) naked in the corner shouting with 2

> > members of staff just quietly keeping him safe, so sad. She did stop biomed

> > (diet enzymes and not much else) saying he was fine as he was............we

> > don't see each other now!

> >

> > I know this kid still has all these skills but what use are they to him

> > without his health? Certainly after all that hard work I would say he is

twice

> > as severe as Sam in terms on how it effects his daily life. It makes me

> > feel less guilty about not doing ABA but in my heart I know, like son rise

> > Sam would have hated. Sam I think is intensive interaction type kid.

> >

> > Don't remember now why I am writing all this, just back from hospital

> > arguing toss with Paed registrar about our kids immune systems so please

excuse

> > me

> > Mx

> >

>

May 9, 2012

Mandi,

I wouldn't feel guilty about not doing ABA. I think your example of that poor

boy shows you what's most important. The question is Where the hell did ABA get

that kid, because it didn't help him regulate, it didn't help him occupy

himself, I could go on. Because clearly he is ill and hasn't had help. His Mum

stopped the biomed. Why after all that wonderful progress! Very few people can

function long term when they are sick.

Think that with some children (some, before everyone starts kicking my butt)

certain therapies make the biomed less effective, because they can place extra

stress on an already-overstressed system, can almost negate the learning, make

the child feel worse, actually weaken the immune system. We know there is a

link between emotion, stress and the immune system, there is plenty of research

out there and it is a key theme in psychological studies. So to help a child

with autism learn, the body needs to be well or the therapy could actually make

matters worse.

For example, a child stuck in TH2, brain being prompted to learn, excretion of

cortisol, strain on adrenals is one scenario.

From where I am after a few years, the biomed is priority so if a therapy could

compromise it, or is doing so, I feel you have to revisit that therapy and see

if it is a source of stress for the child and act accordingly.

Making biomed and therapy work in harmony is something I would love but very

hard to achieve. When that happens (rare), wow. Obvious to me though Biomed

must be first for reasons stated above

Eil xxx

Eil x

> >

> > , I would describe play exactly as you have - internally motivated,

> > child taking the lead, experimenting, exploring and making sense of

> things

> > internally and taking risks at their own level - exactly!

> >

> > And this can be taught on a VB program but the critical (and central)

> issue

> > is that the child choses to engage in the play and exploration and is not

> > externally reinforced for this - i.e. the engagement with an item or his

> > environment IS the motivating factor. I am probably not very good at

> > explaining this because I have long since abandoned the academics of the

> > program and my husband is, by far, more well versed in this than I am but

> > here I go anyway...

> >

> > I remember when we started VB our biggest concern was that would not

> > develop critical thinking skills - i.e. the ability to make sense of the

> > world for himself and *make his own reasoned decisions* to take risks,

> > explore and engage with his environment. (or to " self-actualise " which

> is

> > a developmental result of play skills - right? that's not a rhetorical

> > question, I'm asking because you are studying this stuff!)

> >

> > Anyway, we realised that central to the development of critical thinking

> > was the idea that he must always *chose* to engage with the tutors and/or

> > the environment himself and that the objects and teaching must be

> > *intrinsically

> > motivating*. He must chose to learn, he must chose to explore, he must

> > chose to take risks based on his feelings and thoughts about the

> > environment around him. And he has learned to do this (but it is very

> hard

> > work for the adults, I will say that much, which is why being skillful at

> > " establishing operations " or learning to manipulate the environment

> rather

> > than the child is so important).

> >

> > It is also important to note that while he was taught by adults to use

> his

> > imagination - i.e. that a block can be a " rocket " (or whatever), once he

> > realised that the children around him were often " imagining " things,

> (i.e.

> > he internalised the learning and it helped him to make sense of his

> > environment) then he was able to expand on that idea and began

> > independently engaging in imaginative play with his peers. (This sounds

> so

> > simple but it was hard work!) He still loves playing imaginative play and

> > role play and participating in drama but the whole idea of abstract

> > thinking (and I use that to mean " thinking beyond the literal " ) had to be

> > quite literally introduced to him and demonstrated in a way that he could

> > understand and in a way that was purposeful and meaningful to him and, of

> > course, in a way that he chose to engage with, i.e. was not externally

> > motivated.

> >

> > Now when the tutors " play " with him, it is at his request that they have

> > scenarios with the action figurines and the tutors play that the

> figurines

> > get into " troubles " or problems or whatever and he comes up with ideas to

> > " save the day " and solve the problem. Obviously these are contrived

> > scenarios and are not " play " in the strictest definition of the word but

> > the " play " that he does with the tutors he subsequently expands on and

> > develops when he is on his own.

> >

> > One of the key ways that I know that he takes risks when playing

> > independently is because he wants to be alone (both with and without

> > peers), i.e. he finds it embarassing that we see him playing and I

> remember

> > feeling this as a child and it was because I was exploring an idea or

> > scenario that I perceived to be " risky " or " adventurous " and I wanted to

> > explore that idea in privacy (although obviously I did not ever think of

> > it in those terms, I just knew that I didn't want anyone to see me!)

> >

> > And as far as peer play, again, he has these skills and he plays for

> hours

> > with his peers unfacilitated. However, his negotiation and arguing skills

> > are still lagging (when arguing with peers he tends to address them as if

> > he were an adult - obviously as a result of having so much 1:1 input) and

> > frankly, kids his age spend a heck of a lot of time arguing about what

> they

> > are going to do as much as they spend actually doing it! We are

> addressing

> > these skills but it is much easier now because we can simply have

> > conversations with him about these things because he is interested to

> > discuss them and to understand better how to engage with his peers.

> >

> > Anyway, I don't know that it's really important that we agree - again, it

> > is difficult to characterise any ABA/VB program as being like any other

> > program, clearly there are programs where rote " play " is being taught

> with

> > external motivation and I can't argue against that - as Eileen said, it's

> > better than nothing. However, there is evidence that even rote externally

> > motivated play that is taught can be internalised and expanded on once

> > children conceptualises the ideas but I suspect that this internalisation

> > is disputed amongst the different developmental theorists.

> >

> > As far as social skills - oh dear, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish,

> > lol. and I'm not explaining myself very well anyway and need to do the

> > laundry!!!

> >

> > Darla x

>

May 10, 2012

The question about his severity I think came from Vicky orginally, I wasn;t thinking of you when I was writing the other stuff, just came to me as an example of what a great programme can do for a child but without biomed, as per original post that this poor lad seems goneski with all those skills in his head because of no health support and I wonder if he then knows how bad he is feeling now.

I am a happy bunny, made the right decision yesterday (love it when that happens) and left Sam at the hospital with his TA from class who he loves and blow us all down with a feather if he didn;t sit there and cope with an EEG, double trooper, day before he was a bit goneski from seizures and let them do a CT scan but when he went back for the EEG Sam was back, compus mentus or however you spell it, never underestimate you kid the motto and sometimes mum is best off out of the way. as hard as that is

Mx

Hi Mandi,I think maybe in my long rambling posts (sorry!) it may have got a bit confused - I would NEVER suggest that any skill is worth anything without health and in fact, my original posts were saying exactly that - we did the ABA in tandem with biomedical (mainly diet at that stage) stuff and I would say that Hugo's gains were absolutely down to both things -without one we wouldn't have got the other. Through this board in particular I have had my eyes opened to quite how many ways there are to potentially improve our children's health and this aspect is very much my continuing focus now.In terms of severity, I never actually did the ATEC score for example, as I wasn't actually aware of it when we first started. If I was to reconstruct things now, I would say that Hugo certainly wasn't at the most severe end, but that he had lost lots of skills and was sinking fast, with hindsight. He retained words (echolalia mainly) but was saying those oddly in a lot of cases. He was VERY rigid over routines, behaviours, spent much of the day screaming if things didn't go his way, was violent towards his younger brother and showed zero interest in peers really - (he was 3). He had no ability to play imaginatively, didn't know what to do with toys and spent most of his days obsessing over the same episodes of Postman Pat or short clips of films with lorries in on Youtube (he couldn't eat any meals without those playing on a loops....)I think that's very, very sad indeed about your ex-friend and I would never seek to say "I'm finished" - I feel like you would never be able to say that and I feel like I'll spend the rest of my life hoping that gains don't disappear and that new ones will be made as Hugo's NT peers all make gains and I would like him to keep up. I also wouldn't want to think that I had a closed mind to things - hence why I would like to find out more about the other things like II / RDI to see whether they can offer anything of use too.I didn't know about anything else so I can't say that Hugo would've been an II or anything else child - I constantly try to stop "wishing I'd found out about something sooner" - I think it could send you mad with our children LOL!! The same goes for worrying about not doing things or feeling guilty about it. I am truly in awe of everything you've done with Sam and don't really feel qualified to say so, but I wouldn't worry about not adding ABA to the extensive list if I were you..... I was just trying to say that it's possible that some children are 'ABA children' too - provided it's done well, with people who want the best for our children and have an open mind to the myriad of potential helpful options that are out there.......Anyway, probably too late to be expressing myself clearly now so apologies! Lornaxxx>> Lorna how would you describe your sons severity before ABA/VB?> > One child I spent a lot of time with him and his mum, graduated from ABLLS, > ie he finished the programme, so exciting, he could say where is it, what > is it, who is it, why is it and play appropriately with peers but I would > say at a slightly younger age than he was at the time (6), functional clear > speech but not a great conversationalist................now at Sam's school > (after failing in mainstream and home RDI which mum never really owned > because she was such a die hard ABAer) naked in the corner shouting with 2 > members of staff just quietly keeping him safe, so sad. She did stop biomed > (diet enzymes and not much else) saying he was fine as he was............we > don't see each other now!> > I know this kid still has all these skills but what use are they to him > without his health? Certainly after all that hard work I would say he is twice > as severe as Sam in terms on how it effects his daily life. It makes me > feel less guilty about not doing ABA but in my heart I know, like son rise > Sam would have hated. Sam I think is intensive interaction type kid.> > Don't remember now why I am writing all this, just back from hospital > arguing toss with Paed registrar about our kids immune systems so please excuse > me> Mx> > >

May 10, 2012

Never a truer word typed

Mx

For me, all of the therapies can have their place with kids, and we certainly use a blend. I personally think that all any of the therapy developers has done is taken aspects of how we raise our kids (when they haven't been damaged) and emphasized bits and pieces. I don't think there is one therapy that is good for all kids, because each one as far as I can tell is incomplete.But, it comes down to this: a therapy is only as good as the person providing it, and if your child is still desperately ill, even the most gifted and devoted therapist won't make much of a difference.Anita > >> > Lorna how would you describe your sons severity before ABA/VB?> > > > One child I spent a lot of time with him and his mum, graduated from ABLLS, > > ie he finished the programme, so exciting, he could say where is it, what > > is it, who is it, why is it and play appropriately with peers but I would > > say at a slightly younger age than he was at the time (6), functional clear > > speech but not a great conversationalist................now at Sam's school > > (after failing in mainstream and home RDI which mum never really owned > > because she was such a die hard ABAer) naked in the corner shouting with 2 > > members of staff just quietly keeping him safe, so sad. She did stop biomed > > (diet enzymes and not much else) saying he was fine as he was............we > > don't see each other now!> > > > I know this kid still has all these skills but what use are they to him > > without his health? Certainly after all that hard work I would say he is twice > > as severe as Sam in terms on how it effects his daily life. It makes me > > feel less guilty about not doing ABA but in my heart I know, like son rise > > Sam would have hated. Sam I think is intensive interaction type kid.> > > > Don't remember now why I am writing all this, just back from hospital > > arguing toss with Paed registrar about our kids immune systems so please excuse > > me> > Mx> > > > > >>

May 10, 2012

The reason I mention severity is because I have 2 different presentations in my boys, seemed far more autistic when he was a pre-schooler and in fact Lorna pretty much describes him when she talks about Hugo, so if I had my time again and knowing what I know now I would 100% go to RDI or II for a child whith that presentation because much as P would have aquired skills on an ABA programme those are skills he managed anyway only a tad later. The social skills and all that entails are massive for P because he is now almost socio phobic, anxiety driven, these are the area's that are less obvious when small but glaringly in your face in teens and beyond, they cause all the isolation and low self esteem we see every day.

I'm not dissing ABA in any way, we do a programme with , just pointing out that most kids will appear more severe in the younger age group than they are, we see it all the time with recovery stories, the full recovery is very thin on the ground with older and much more severe children, there's always the argument that it's down to "early" intervention and for sure that's the best for all our kids but equally no way of knowing how many were ever going to be greatly handicapped in the first place.

I believe if P had been on an RDI or II programme then he would be as close to recovered as anyone, not the case for , he would most likely have gained loads from ABA much earlier than 12yrs old but I do not believe it would have mainstreamed him.

Ultimaltely though anything, absolutley anything is better than what passes for education with our kids in most schools and I include mainstream provision in that, P came out of 10 yrs education having learned precisely nothing, zero, nada and is the same, difference is academically at least P can make up the ground, will not, and while we allude to ABAists who are less than they should be, I believe I have met the worst and best known case of this, we need to remember they wouln't get their foot through the door if schools were doing what they should, only the very best consultants would be out there to guide the schools.

Vicky

Re: Re: How ABAists view biomed and complimentary ...

Never a truer word typed

Mx

For me, all of the therapies can have their place with kids, and we certainly use a blend. I personally think that all any of the therapy developers has done is taken aspects of how we raise our kids (when they haven't been damaged) and emphasized bits and pieces. I don't think there is one therapy that is good for all kids, because each one as far as I can tell is incomplete.

But, it comes down to this: a therapy is only as good as the person providing it, and if your child is still desperately ill, even the most gifted and devoted therapist won't make much of a difference.