MVOCs & Mycotoxins (for Sharon)

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

MVOCs are Microbial (M) Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs). There have been

several good explanations of that already but they still assumed a fairly

high level of chemistry background, which from your writings it appears you

may not have, so hopefully I can clarify a bit in less technical terms.

The " V " in means the chemical is volatile. " Volatile " means that at normal

room pressure and temperature, it is a gas with a certain chemical

qualities. One quality is that, when they were liquids, they evaporated

quickly. For example rubbing alcohol, though you buy it at the store as a

liquid, evaporates quickly into the air if you leave the bottle open because

it is a VOC.

The " O " means " Organic. " Unlike what nonchemists think when they hear this

word, being " organic " in this sense has nothing to do with pesticide use!

Here, " organic " means that it contains at least one carbon atom. It's a

chemist's term because carbon is the " building block of life. "

And " C " is for " compound " , simply meaning it contains one or more molecules.

Thus MVOCs are gases emitted from microbes. In our discussion, fungi are

the microbes of interest so I'll confine further comments to MVOCs from

fungi.

You posed several questions and made several statements to which I will

attempt to respond:

1. " It is well documented that molds can elicit these symptoms. (HP -

farmers, ABPA, CFS) " While true that mold can cause hypersensitivity

pneumonitis (HP), exposure needs to be in the millions or more of spores/m3

to cause these illnesses. Considering " contaminated " homes are often only

in the hundreds to low thousands of spores/m3 (not including flooded homes

here), you can see why there is skepticism in scientific circles that so

many people are becoming seriously ill from modestly elevated levels of mold

in their homes.

Allergic Bronchopulmonary Aspergillosis (ABPA), on the other hand, is only a

concern for people with serious immune compromisation or lung impairment

illness. Patients with such disorders, especially cystic fibrosis, do not

have to be exposed to " high " level of aspergillis (e.g. a moldy house) to

develop this problem.

Finally, if by " well documented " you mean oft-repeated, then I would agree

with you about a connection between Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and mold.

However, I'm not aware of any scientific data linking mold exposure to CFS,

though there are certainly hundreds of websites claiming such an association

(most of which seem also to be selling vitamins or lawsuit services to

" cure " the problem). But I tend to be suspicious of any sources of

information that mix scientific jargon with sales pitches.

2. " People become better when treated with antifungals and/or mycotoxin

eliminating measures. " First of all, I assume you mean " mold eliminating

measures " rather than " mycotoxin eliminating measures. " I don't know why

anyone would want to try to get rid of the mycotoxins and not get rid of the

spores, glucans, etc that cause allergic response as well (assuming it were

even possible to do so).

Becoming well when treated with something that a person believes will make

them well is not " proof " that someone was sick from the presumed causative

factor (e.g. mold). If that were true, then bloodletting and leeches would

still be popular medical interventions. For example, people often get

better after taking antibiotics for what they believed was a sinus

infection, when in fact it was a cold that would have gotten better on its

own in about the same number of days. But they get better after the

antibiotics so think that was " proof " they had the sinus infection.

Furthermore, recent studies have proven that the " placebo effect " is not a

temporary effect that is in someone's head -- it can literally heal. So I

by no means am implying that people who have gotten better were imagining

their illness. Just that mold may or may not have had much to do with it.

There is still much we don't know.

That's not to say they aren't becoming ill from something, or that some sort

of hypersensitivity reaction has happened, or that somehow molds living on

modern-day substrates made of glues and polymers are somehow more irritating

than molds grown in the lab and used in most studies (because we do know

that molds emit different MVOCs and mycotoxins depending on their " food " ).

There is still much work to be done.

3. " Antibiotics sometimes actually increase the symptoms of illness -

because when one kills bacteria that keep fungi in check, the fungi love it

and flourish " This has received increasing scientific scrutiny and does

seem to be bearing out. But that doesn't mean that treating a person with

antibiotics and them getting worse means that the person had a fungal

infection; it just means that the person didn't have a bacterial infection

(or that the antibiotics killed the " bad " bacteria but also caused an

imbalance of the " good " bacteria and now the person is suffering from an

imbalance.). Research on " probiotics " is finally lending some credence to

my doctor's advice to eat a daily " active cultures " yogurt whenever I'm

taking antibiotics. Which Mom has been telling me to do for years anyway.

4. " Would antifungals and antitoxins (new word) also kill MVOC's? " No.

MVOCs are gases, not living things that can be " killed. " It's not correct,

as Dr. Wei's posting explained, to use " MVOCs " interchangeably with

" mycotoxins. " In fact, most mycotoxins are toxic only by ingestion or

occasionally from very high exposures to spores.

As far as " anti-toxins " - there may be antidotes to mycotoxins (I'm not an

MD, that's beyond me -- but try looking up a common mycotoxin such as

aflatoxin and see what the treatment for overexposure is) if you've

ingested/inhaled a toxic dose. But I don't think that's what you are

asking. I think you are asking, is there a chemical or process that will

" get rid of " mycotoxins. And the answer there is, probably not; but why

would you want to get rid of the mycotoxins and not get rid of the mold,

anyway? The dead mold is still going to cause allergic symptoms in

susceptible people, it doesn't have to be alive to do that. And allergic

symptoms are by far the most common health issue associated with mold. You

don't have to be immunecompromised to feel awful from allergies (fatigue,

nausea, aches & pains, fever, headache, mucous membrane irritation, asthma,

cough, wheeze, tight chest, itchy, irritable... Can you tell I suffer from

allergies?!).

5. Finally you asked about health effects of mVOCs. Headaches and eye

irritation are the most common health effects. I'm not aware of any serious

health effects, just transient ones (i.e. they disappear as soon as one is

removed from the source). As far as citations, here are a few.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_ui

ds=10501152 & dopt=Abstract (sensory irritation study. Concludes that " the

contribution of MVOCs to [sensory irritation] seems less than previously

supposed. "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_ui

ds=11975648 & dopt=Abstract (MVOCs from aspergillus. You could then look up

the MVOCs to find out their health effects).

http://www.epa.gov/mold/append_b.html (Go to " mVOCs " . Lists " reported

symptoms " as headaches, nasal irritation, dizziness, fatigue, and nausea (I

can personally attest to nausea, so much that I finally threw out 48 boxes

of work files and books that, while not moldy themselves, had absorbed the

moldy odor from being stored in a moldy basement!))

http://www.acoem.org/guidelines/article.asp?ID=52 (includes interesting

dosage estimates for illness caused by stachybotrys spores & mycotoxin)

6. Finally, you cited http://wordnet.com.au/Products/infectious_diseases.htm

as a main reference for the mycotic diseases you described. This document

lists no author, no sponsor, nor any publishing body (other than " wordnet "

which describes itself as a site that will write & publish any kind of

document a person wants). This makes me rather suspicious that it is one of

the " cut and paste " jobs (from public-source material) done by an internet

" publisher " to create " original material " they can then sell (the

original-source material is usually publicly available for free). If I'm

wrong, please let me know. But if I'm right, everything in it is suspect

because lord knows what's been muddled together. You would be better served

to compile your own information from reliable sources. Once good place to

start is www.doctorfungus.org.

I apologize for the long response, but felt that you were still struggling

with your questions and I had the rare opportunity to compose a reply today.

Hopefully this response has been useful.

Best wishes,

-mmc

CAVEAT - THE ABOVE RESPONSE IS MINE ALONE AND IS NOT INTENDED TO REPRESENT

THE VIEWS OF ANYONE TO WHOM I AM EMPLOYED OR ANY ORGANIZATION TO WHICH I

BELONG. (yada yada yada).

.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

M. Cavanaugh, CIH

Industrial Hygiene Office

Appalachian State University, Boone NC 28608-2140

" They're funny things, accidents... You never have them, 'til you're having

them. " - Eeyore.

.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I am sorry you are frustrated. I am asking one simple question to which I

have received NO answer.

Can you point me to any information where the ill health effects from

mVOC's

are described?

I have been trying to better understand this aspect. Dr. Tang's writing

was

excellent and I learned much from it. However I have not seen the ill

health effects of mVOC's written anywhere. And I have been looking for that

info.

You say look at the EPA. I did. Where do I look?

And I am not doing a word play. I am of the opinion that mold toxins and

mycotoxins are the same thing. That is correct, isn't it?

What are the known ill health effects from mVOC's? Just tell me where to

find this info and I will quit asking.

Sharon