Re: Disclosure on this site [was: Dust Mites and Steam Cleaning]

[Guest guest]

Wayne:

I have no problem answering your finger-pointing questions. My responses are under each of your paragraphs.

Mychael:

time for some factual disclosure.

your name has appeared in marketing ads for this particular firm

(ThermaPure, hereinafter TP) and now you're touting that firm -- vs.

the " technology " or general approach -- on this list. in point of

fact, it's clear that the connection between you and TP goes back a

number of years.

I haven’t looked at ThermaPure’s web site in over 2-yrs, so I don’t know where they have me. Yes...There is a connection because the owners of the technology and I are good friends going way-back and when they had the idea (i.e., dry heat for structure rehabilitation) they asked me to assist, given my many years of experience doing just that – structure rehabilitation. I performed some of the early efficacy studies for them and they paid for my time and materials to collect data. This was five years ago, and I have not done any studies for them since 2001. They now have some significant others performing efficacy studies, and I look forward to the published data.

I may be mistaken, but something smells a bit off here. you were

critical of Jeff May for citing his published works, but your

situation appears to be far less appropriate.

If something smells...get your nose examined! I was critical of Jeff May stating that steam cleaning was “The most effective, safe way...” to mitigate dust mites. I used to specify steam cleaning a lot, and I saw first hand the good, bad, and the ugly aspects of steam cleaning carpets. I WAS NOT critical of Jeff May! I was critical of his representation of steam cleaning as being the best. It is not.

how many projects have you referred to TP? how much have you been

paid by TP, either for technology development, consulting, or helping

to advertise/market their service? simply put, what financial or

personal relationship exists between you and TP? if your response is

that there is no connection, then why do you repeatedly promote that

particular firm, rather than the technology? what firms offer a

similar, competitive service? what are their website URLs?

Ahhh....The meat of your questions and really good questions at that – skepticism is good. In the past 5 years I may have directly referred, maybe, 20 to 30 projects to ThermaPure, and managed/oversaw maybe 6 of my own projects using ThermaPure’s technology employed by others. Last year I was paid $2,000 by ThermaPure as honorariums for teaching several classes to their licensees on bio-aerosols containment and control, heat safety, OSHA issues, etc. Chump-change! I loose a whole day of billable time to teach a few hours of classroom time. I have absolutely no financial relationship with ThermaPure, however, the owners are my friends of 20+ years and I will assist them, as I will any friend in need, any time, any day, and without compensation if asked. Regarding promotion....No, you got your noodles crossed. I do not promote the firm, I promote the technology – BECAUSE IT WORKS!, and it works really well too. Recently on this post I was asked for references to substantiate the technology. I pointed/referred to ThermaPure’s web site because they have attempted to get their references together – at my urging several years ago. BTW...ThermaPure is a firm that has patents on the technology and they license the technology to other remediation firms. I don’t believe that ThermaPure does any of the remediation work themselves. ThermaPure supports the technology, works with scientists studying ways to use the technology, supports and trains licensees, and defends their patents. Oh crap! Now it sounds like I’m promoting ThermaPure. Oh well. Bottom line Wane, the technology works really well for structure re-hab, it is very cost effective, it is scalable and flexible. Dry heat is not a panacea for all things, but for many biological and chemical problems in buildings, the technology has some VERY favorable benefits and strengths when compared to traditional remediation techniques/methods, and more often at a lower cost. You should try it. Looking at ThermaPure’s web site was a good start. I suggest finding a licensee in your area and trying it.

please respond to this public list at your earliest convenience.

Is this quick enuff for you?

Wane

<><><><><><><><><><><>

Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIH

Division Manager, Indoor Air Quality

MICHAELS ENGINEERING

" Real Professionals. Real Solutions. "

St. , La Crosse, Milwaukee

Phone , ext. 484

Cell

Fax

mailto:wab@... <mailto:wab%40michaelsengineering.com>

On the web at: http://www.michaelsengineering.com

" To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be

more fun? "

- Graham

>

> Jeff:

>

> Yes....You are quite correct, the dry heat treatment process

requires

> heating an entire room or house, depending upon the area treated.

However,

> I take exception to you stating that steam is “The most effective,

safe

> --

> Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

> >

> > Geyer writes:

> >

> >> > Bob:

> >> >

> >> > A great way to kill dust mites is to raise the temperature to

140F and hold

> >> > it there for 120 to 180 minutes. This will effectively kill

all bugs in

> >> > your house and it will not harm most contents and

architectural elements.

> >> > Take a look at the ThermaPure web site for additional info.

[Guest guest]

Myke:

finger-pointing? I think not. a request for disclosure of your relationship in this regard was long overdue. I asked for a reply at your earliest convenience, and apparently this was a convenient time for you. thank you.

indeed, you were critical of Jeff for citing his own written work. here are your own words:

"...steam is "The most effective, safe way..." to eliminate dust mites. The article you referenced in the Housekeeping Channel was one written by you. In it you mention the benefits of steam..."

this situation still smells, and my olfactory system was recently calibrated against a relevant primary standard. apparently, the message we're all to take away from your reply is that it's just fine -- hunky-dory in fact -- to promote our friends' businesses on this list and anywhere else we please, with no disclosure of the relationship. perhaps this does not openly violate the ABIH code of ethics or the Engineer's Creed, but...... hmmmmm (sniff, sniff) yep, there it is again.

generally speaking, patents are granted for innovations in technology. perhaps TP was granted a patent for a particular METHOD of heating up a home or other structure, but surely there are other ways of doing so. I can think of three different methods in 60 seconds (tick, tock) -- make that four. (if TP was actually granted the patent for the concept, I'd love to see a copy of the document, or a cite to it via the U.S. Patent Office.)

so the question remains: who else is promoting this APPROACH (i.e., heating up a building to kill microorganisms)? anytime you or I bring in bidders or consider a sub, we get at least three cost estimates - right? right. rather than 3 bidders of the same proprietary equipment, what other companies will heat up my house to kill the microbes? who are they? what is their website URL?

finally, as another list-member has noted, mycotoxins are remarkably heat-stable compounds. in fact, they are not altered by the common healthcare method for sterilizing certain types of equipment: autoclaving -- this means ~250 degF! so your approach (oops, TP's approach) does NOTHING to actually change the burden of fungal toxins (if present). and the little dead bodies are still there, waiting to serve as an ideal nutrient source for the next wave of spores seeking to colonize material surfaces.

I'll stick to the long-established IH approach of source control/removal.

Wane

<><><><><><><><><><><> Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIH Division Manager, Indoor Air Quality MICHAELS ENGINEERING"Real Professionals. Real Solutions."

Phone , ext. 484 Cell Fax

mailto:wab@... On the web at: http://www.michaelsengineering.com

"To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun?" - Graham

> > > > > Mychael: > > > > time for some factual disclosure.> > > > your name has appeared in marketing ads for this particular firm