Re: GLA needed with cod liver oil supplementation?

October 24, 2004

In a message dated 10/24/04 7:55:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> Second, I have never heard of " GLA deficiency " either. What exactly did this

> doctor say about humans' requirements for GLA? It's not defined as

essential

> to the human diet, but it's precursor, LA, is.

_______

~~~~~~> I think the most significant need is for DGLA, which is the precursor

to the series-1 prostaglandins, and arachidonic acid, which is the precursor

to the series-2 prostaglandins, to the former of which GLA is a precursor.

Acquiring GLA, DGLA, and AA by dietary LA has the same problems that acquiring

DHA and EPA through dietary ALA has. A genetically-based absence or reduced

activity of the converting enzymes would be problematic, and a diet without

sufficient zinc could cause a deficiency in these zinc-deficient enzymes.

Various

health problems interfere with the D6D enzyme (that converts LA to GLA), and

beyond all this, it would be much more efficient to have dietary sources of

the pre-formed fatty acids since the conversion rates are relatively low, and

vary widely.

If the desired product is the series 1 & 2 prostaglandins, than dietary GLA

would be much better than LA, since it bypasses the need for D6D activity, and

since it is one step closer to the final product, and I'd think the

concentrations of final product would increase exponentially with each

successive

precursor as the dietary source. (IOW, if, to make up a number for easy math,

each

conversion rate is 10%, then three conversions will result in 1/1000 final

product, whereas two would result in 1/100, and one would result in 1/10.)

______

> This doesnt' mean it's not

> essential or important, I'm just curious as to what this doc thinks of our

> need for GLA? If the diet is sufficient in LA, and one takes a good dose of

> EPA, will GLA not be produced from LA? Does EPA inhibit the conversion of

LA

> to GLA?

_______

~~~~> I don't think it would, although a high concentration of ALA would

(they use the same enzyme for conversion.) What would merit concern, though, is

the eicosanoid imbalance. A large dose of EPA would seem to be problematic if

not balanced with sufficient DGLA and AA, which produce the other eicosanoids.

_______

> Where would Price's primitives have gotten GLA along with their

> diets rich in EPA and DHA, as found in fish and fish liver oils?

_____

~~~~~> I doubt they'd have very high amounts of GLA, although Barry Sears

says oatmeal is a good source, which one of Price's groups ate a lot of. But

they'd be getting lots of DGLA from liver and other organ meats, and lots of AA

from butter, lard, liver-- most animal fats. I'd also expect that, like

humans, animals convert a portion of the precursor fatty acids to the final

products

and leave another portion behind, so I'd think that any animal food

containing DGLA and AA would contain at least *some* GLA.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

October 24, 2004

In a message dated 10/24/04 9:22:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

wanitawa@... writes:

> Similar issue addressed by Fran Mc Cullough in The Good Fat Cookbook. She

> says omega 3's can slightly depress immune system. Benefits can outweigh

> that but to avoid the decrease Barry Sears adds small amounts of GLA which

> is equal to two small bowls of slow cooked oatmeal a week. Every morning is

> too much. For us gfers looks like fish oil or other GLA containing oils.

> Does your daughter bruise easily? Bruce Fife says sign of excess omega 3 in

> this book. My youngest daughter was in low percentile, went higher and will

> be lowest in teens now right through. No women in my husband's family are

> over 5 ft. and 100 lbs. I'm 5' 2 " and 20 lbs. more.

____

~~~~~> It would seem that all of this could be resolved by simply taking the

CLO in the combination with centrifuged butter oil that Price recommended.

(The need for GLA that Sears mentions is, I think, really a need for AA, but

he is super-AA-ophobic, so he recommends GLA.)

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

October 25, 2004

Just a couple of questions... are you letting your daughter get vaccinated?

Are you giving her raw milk, raw cream, and raw butter?

L.

>I attended a conference this weekend on autism. Cod liver oil and

>fish oil were highly recommended as a supplement for autistic

>children. The doctor giving the talk warned us that it was

>important to also supplement with GLA at the same time. He said

>that giving cod liver oil without GLA can result in a GLA deficiency

>and that this can cause growth problems. I had never heard of

>this. I had been giving my 18 month old cod liver oil (without

>giving GLA) and she's having growth problems. I don't know if

>there's a connection, but I'm starting to give her GLA, too. I was

>wondering if anyone on this list new anything about this issue with

>GLA.

>

_________________________________________________________________

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October 25, 2004

> GLA needed with cod liver oil supplementation?

>

>Hi everyone,

>

>I attended a conference this weekend on autism. Cod liver oil and

>fish oil were highly recommended as a supplement for autistic

>children. The doctor giving the talk warned us that it was

>important to also supplement with GLA at the same time. He said

>that giving cod liver oil without GLA can result in a GLA deficiency

>and that this can cause growth problems. I had never heard of

>this. I had been giving my 18 month old cod liver oil (without

>giving GLA) and she's having growth problems. I don't know if

>there's a connection, but I'm starting to give her GLA, too. I was

>wondering if anyone on this list new anything about this issue with

>GLA.

First, who was the doctor, just out of curiosity?

Second, I have never heard of " GLA deficiency " either. What exactly did this

doctor say about humans' requirements for GLA? It's not defined as essential

to the human diet, but it's precursor, LA, is. This doesnt' mean it's not

essential or important, I'm just curious as to what this doc thinks of our

need for GLA? If the diet is sufficient in LA, and one takes a good dose of

EPA, will GLA not be produced from LA? Does EPA inhibit the conversion of LA

to GLA? Where would Price's primitives have gotten GLA along with their

diets rich in EPA and DHA, as found in fish and fish liver oils?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

>

October 25, 2004

Here are some websites for you to look at:

http://kidstalkback.tripod.com/kidstalkback/id13.html

http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/products/fatty_acids/pro_efa/ProEFA_C_90_Spec821.html

http://kidstalkback.tripod.com/halleysonlinediary/id16.html

http://bbs.babycenter.com/board/toddler/toddlerdevelopment/1143871/thread/145970\

1

http://www.gsdl.com/assessments/finddisease/autism/fatty_acids.html

http://autism.about.com/library/weekly/aa051502b.htm

Kim

you letting your daughter get vaccinated?

> Are you giving her raw milk, raw cream, and raw butter?

> L.

>

>>I attended a conference this weekend on autism. Cod liver oil and

>>fish oil were highly recommended as a supplement for autistic

>>children. The doctor giving the talk warned us that it was

>>important to also supplement with GLA at the same time. He said

>>that giving cod liver oil without GLA can result in a GLA deficiency

>>and that this can cause growth problems. I had never heard of

>>this. I had been giving my 18 month old cod liver oil (without

>>giving GLA) and she's having growth problems. I don't know if

>>there's a connection, but I'm starting to give her GLA, too. I was

>>wondering if anyone on this list new anything about this issue with

>>GLA.

>>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

October 25, 2004

She hasn't been vaccinated - and won't be.

She's allergic to milk and so I can't give her the raw milk

products. I'm still nursing her. I'm giving her the components of

the NT meat based formula. I don't give her the formula because I

can't get her to drink it.

I don't know if a GLA deficiency is effecting her growth. There are

other feeding issues that may be doing that, plus I suspect GERD.

I'm adding the GLA to see if it helps.

Thanks,

> Just a couple of questions... are you letting your daughter get

vaccinated?

> Are you giving her raw milk, raw cream, and raw butter?

> L.

>

> >I attended a conference this weekend on autism. Cod liver oil and

> >fish oil were highly recommended as a supplement for autistic

> >children. The doctor giving the talk warned us that it was

> >important to also supplement with GLA at the same time. He said

> >that giving cod liver oil without GLA can result in a GLA

deficiency

> >and that this can cause growth problems. I had never heard of

> >this. I had been giving my 18 month old cod liver oil (without

> >giving GLA) and she's having growth problems. I don't know if

> >there's a connection, but I'm starting to give her GLA, too. I

was

> >wondering if anyone on this list new anything about this issue

with

> >GLA.

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from

McAfee®

> Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?

cid=3963

October 25, 2004

The doctor was Dr. Woody McGinnis. He's a DAN! (Defeat Autism Now!)

doctor. He was trained traditionally, but he's well educated in

nutrition (in spite of being trained traditionally) - though I doubt

he knows much about Weston Price. He does research in biochemical

issues in autism. It's interesting that a lot of what these doctors

are coming up with parallels Weston Price. They're saying we need

more digestive enzymes in the diet, more probiotics, more nutrients -

especially EFA's, and that we need to heal damaged intestines.

They just don't know about things like raw milk, fermentation, grass

fed beef, soaking nuts, grains, and seeds, etc. They're still

trying to accomplish with pills what traditional foods naturally

give us. In autistic kids the supplements may be necessary because

their metabolism is so messed up from all the toxics, damaged gut,

and possibly genetic issues that seem to be causing the problem.

Another thing that's interesting is that the DAN! docs get as much

grief from mainstream medicine as we do with keeping/restoring our

health through traditional food. They've been pretty much

ostracized by the medical community because they dare to say that

autism can be cured - and they're actually doing it!

As far as the chemistry of GLA deficiency (assuming there is such a

thing), maybe he was meaning that it's something peculiar to

autistic kids since there are a lot of chemical pathways that get

messed up and conversions aren't made like they are supposed to be.

I don't if this is the case with the LA to GLA conversion. I'm just

offering it as a hypothesis.

Thanks,

>

> > GLA needed with cod liver oil supplementation?

> >

> >Hi everyone,

> >

> >I attended a conference this weekend on autism. Cod liver oil and

> >fish oil were highly recommended as a supplement for autistic

> >children. The doctor giving the talk warned us that it was

> >important to also supplement with GLA at the same time. He said

> >that giving cod liver oil without GLA can result in a GLA

deficiency

> >and that this can cause growth problems. I had never heard of

> >this. I had been giving my 18 month old cod liver oil (without

> >giving GLA) and she's having growth problems. I don't know if

> >there's a connection, but I'm starting to give her GLA, too. I

was

> >wondering if anyone on this list new anything about this issue

with

> >GLA.

>

> First, who was the doctor, just out of curiosity?

> Second, I have never heard of " GLA deficiency " either. What

exactly did this

> doctor say about humans' requirements for GLA? It's not defined as

essential

> to the human diet, but it's precursor, LA, is. This doesnt' mean

it's not

> essential or important, I'm just curious as to what this doc

thinks of our

> need for GLA? If the diet is sufficient in LA, and one takes a

good dose of

> EPA, will GLA not be produced from LA? Does EPA inhibit the

conversion of LA

> to GLA? Where would Price's primitives have gotten GLA along with

their

> diets rich in EPA and DHA, as found in fish and fish liver oils?

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

> Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

> http://www.westonaprice.org

>

> ----------------------------

> " The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol

cause

> heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our

times. " --

> Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at

Vanderbilt

> University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

>

> The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

> <http://www.thincs.org>

> ----------------------------

>

> >

October 25, 2004

It just occurred to me that I need to clear up something from my

first post on this. My 18 mo old is not autistic. She's doing

great outside of slow physical growth. I have 2 sons on the autism

spectrum. I have 5 children total and I forget that other people

don't know that...but, hey, with 5 kids I forget a lot of stuff.

October 25, 2004

> Cod liver oil and

> >fish oil were highly recommended as a supplement for autistic

> >children. The doctor giving the talk warned us that it was

> >important to also supplement with GLA at the same time. He said

> >that giving cod liver oil without GLA can result in a GLA deficiency

> >and that this can cause growth problems. I had never heard of

> >this. I had been giving my 18 month old cod liver oil (without

> >giving GLA) and she's having growth problems. I don't know if

> >there's a connection, but I'm starting to give her GLA, too. I was

> >wondering if anyone on this list new anything about this issue with

> >GLA.

> >

,

Similar issue addressed by Fran Mc Cullough in The Good Fat Cookbook. She

says omega 3's can slightly depress immune system. Benefits can outweigh

that but to avoid the decrease Barry Sears adds small amounts of GLA which

is equal to two small bowls of slow cooked oatmeal a week. Every morning is

too much. For us gfers looks like fish oil or other GLA containing oils.

Does your daughter bruise easily? Bruce Fife says sign of excess omega 3 in

this book. My youngest daughter was in low percentile, went higher and will

be lowest in teens now right through. No women in my husband's family are

over 5 ft. and 100 lbs. I'm 5' 2 " and 20 lbs. more.

Wanita

October 25, 2004

I sure hope this is the best answer to the question because this is what I do.

Sometimes the science in some of the answers can be dizzing...but much

apreciated none the less ) Carol

ChrisMasterjohn@... wrote:~~~~~> It would seem that all of this could be

resolved by simply taking the CLO in the combination with centrifuged butter oil

that Price recommended.

Chris

October 25, 2004

This seems to be a good solution with my other other children -

judging by the rate they're outgrowing their clothes! - but my 18 mo

old is allergic to the butter oil.

~~~~~> It would seem that all of this

could be resolved by simply taking the CLO in the combination with

centrifuged butter oil that Price recommended.

>

> Chris

>

October 25, 2004

I was just reading this:

http://www.bbbautism.com/dan_mcginnis_2.htm

.... In behavioral children the chemical co-factors needed for this manufacturing

process - Zinc, Magnesium, Vitamin B6 low toxin levels - are often suboptimal,

so just giving the precursor oils may not be enough to boost EPA, DHA, and GLA

sufficiently. Further, the dietary intake of essential fatty acids may need to

be higher in autistic children because of their tendency to malabsorb fats...

Cheers,

Tas'.

October 25, 2004

> I have 2 sons on the autism

> spectrum.

This is a good group for parents with autistic children:

/

Bruce

October 25, 2004

----- Original Message -----

From: " clzdawson "

She hasn't been vaccinated - and won't be.

She's allergic to milk and so I can't give her the raw milk

products. I'm still nursing her. >>

Are *you* gf/cf? If not, there's a possibility that these proteins are

crossing the barrier and she's getting them through you. I see a difference

in my nurslings when *my* diet is out of compliance with our allergens and I

have seen in ours and other families that gluten can create FTT in children.

--s

October 25, 2004

Ditto here too! My 100% breast fed son had blood in his stool, spit up

every time he nursed and had GERD. All of this subsided or improved when I

was taken off all dairy by my pediatrician. It was hard for me, but well

worth the efforts. His colic also subsided.

Connie Bernard