kefiili

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:46:58 -0800, Heidi Schuppenhauer

<heidis@...> wrote:

>

> >Does anyone know how kefir fares shipping from the US to Canada? I'd

> >really like to send some to a friend but have been hesitant, not

> >knowing how Canada will take to such an import. Perhaps Heidi's bubble

> >envelope method would be the best bet.

>

> I did send some to Canada once, it took a couple of weeks to arrive. It

> was still ok when it got there though. I think going UPS or Fedex would

> be the way to go. My experience shipping other things to other countries

> is that Fedex, in particular, seems to know how to get things through

> customs even in problematic cases. (In one instance, when we went with

> regular mail, the local officials wanted a large " customs fee " which

> miraculously

> wasn't present with Fedex).

Thanks Heidi. That's good to know. Did you send some milk with the

grains? Or do you think the method you've been discussing of just

sending rinsed grains would work just as well? I guess I'm wondering

how long they'll survive without something to feed off of. Perhaps I

could let some lay around for a couple weeks and see if they are still

viable.

Fern

[Guest guest]

Fern,

If they are sent with milk, they are much more active much faster after they go

through the mail. I've ordered two sets. The first grains were sent inside

double baggies with just traces of milk on them, and then inside a cardboard

envelope, and they were pretty stunted - took over a week or so to start

increasing and never have been very active to this day - weeks later. The

second batch, was sent to me in a little plastic bottle with about a cup of

milk. Those grains were simply amazing! They literally shot the kefir out of

the bottle onto my counter, when I opened it. (She'd put milk in the bottle,

but it was wonderful thick mellow kefir when I received it 3 days later.) Those

grains produced like crazy from the very beginning. I was really impressed

after that disappointing first batch. She'd had them in raw milk, but I put

them into ultrapasteurized milk. The first batch of kefir I made from them was

wonderful. (I included the kefir they came with in the batch.) The next batch

after that was disappointing - milk consistency and wouldn't even make rivulets

down the side of a glass after 24-36 hours of culturing. I really think it was

the ultrapasteurized milk that ruined it. But, nevertheless, if I ever get more

grains, I'm going to request they be sent with milk and I'll pay extra for it.

It's an amazing difference from my experience.

Carol

Thanks Heidi. That's good to know. Did you send some milk with the

grains? Or do you think the method you've been discussing of just

sending rinsed grains would work just as well? I guess I'm wondering

how long they'll survive without something to feed off of. Perhaps I

could let some lay around for a couple weeks and see if they are still

viable.

Fern

[Guest guest]

>Now I'm wondering if the grains are no longer functioning as the milk

>does not separate. Gets very sour (different than regular sour milk)

>and even after being left out for days is still the consistency of

>regular milk. The grains have had periods of inactivity (resting in

>milk) so I'm not sure what's happening. I do culture kefir in the

>fridge for the most part as I don't use that much.

>

>Shera

I can't say for sure, but on the kefir list the kefir grains do change

consistency every so often. I have problems with mine whenever I

don't use organic milk ... since they have tested regular milk and found

traces of antibiotics (even though treated cows are NOT supposed to

be contributing to the milk supply) this makes a lot of sense. Antibiotics

kill bacteria ... duh ... I suspect sometimes even the " organic " milk gets

exposed to some antibiotics or cleaning agents or something though.

Kefir and kefiili do not seem to mind boiled milk or ultrapastuerized milk

though. The kefiili does not always like raw milk. The viili component seems

to go dormant when competing with the bacteria native to the milk. Kefir too

will change when used with raw milk, as it has to compete with a different

set of bacteria. This doesn't create a bad product, just a different one.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Thanks Heidi. That's good to know. Did you send some milk with the

>grains? Or do you think the method you've been discussing of just

>sending rinsed grains would work just as well? I guess I'm wondering

>how long they'll survive without something to feed off of. Perhaps I

>could let some lay around for a couple weeks and see if they are still

>viable.

>

>Fern

I just sent the washed grains. The lady said they arrived very flat,

but plumped up after a couple of days and worked fine.

I don't know how long they will survive without food. Dom

lays his on filter paper or a clean cloth and just lets them dry out

(a week or so) at room temp, then ships them. So I'd guess they will

survive at least a week. But the viili part is more sensitive, esp. to heat.

The immigrants dried the viili on a hankie and brought it over on a sea

voyage, so it might ship dried just fine. But airport scanners kill it,

as does heat.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Carol,

Are all these grains you are talking about sent from Heidi? The

reason I ask is because you say one was sent in raw milk and I know

Heidi doesn't use raw milk unless she changed without my knowing.

Del

" Carol " wrote:

> Fern,

> If they are sent with milk, they are much more active much faster

after they go through the mail. I've ordered two sets. The first

grains were sent inside double baggies with just traces of milk on

them, and then inside a cardboard envelope, and they were pretty

stunted - took over a week or so to start increasing and never have

been very active to this day - weeks later. The second batch, was

sent to me in a little plastic bottle with about a cup of milk.

Those grains were simply amazing! They literally shot the kefir out

of the bottle onto my counter, when I opened it. (She'd put milk in

the bottle, but it was wonderful thick mellow kefir when I received

it 3 days later.) Those grains produced like crazy from the very

beginning. I was really impressed after that disappointing first

batch. She'd had them in raw milk, but I put them into

ultrapasteurized milk. The first batch of kefir I made from them

was wonderful. (I included the kefir they came with in the batch.)

The next batch after that was disappointing - milk consistency and

wouldn't even make rivulets down the side of a glass after 24-36

hours of culturing. I really think it was the ultrapasteurized milk

that ruined it. But, nevertheless, if I ever get more grains, I'm

going to request they be sent with milk and I'll pay extra for it.

It's an amazing difference from my experience.

> Carol

>

>

>

> Thanks Heidi. That's good to know. Did you send some milk with the

> grains? Or do you think the method you've been discussing of just

> sending rinsed grains would work just as well? I guess I'm

wondering

> how long they'll survive without something to feed off of. Perhaps

I

> could let some lay around for a couple weeks and see if they are

still

> viable.

>

> Fern

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:35:30 -0800, Carol <cah@...> wrote:

> Fern,

> If they are sent with milk, they are much more active much faster after they

> go through the mail. I've ordered two sets. The first grains were sent

> inside double baggies with just traces of milk on them, and then inside a

> cardboard envelope, and they were pretty stunted - took over a week or so to

> start increasing and never have been very active to this day - weeks later.

> The second batch, was sent to me in a little plastic bottle with about a cup

> of milk. Those grains were simply amazing! They literally shot the kefir

> out of the bottle onto my counter, when I opened it. (She'd put milk in the

> bottle, but it was wonderful thick mellow kefir when I received it 3 days

> later.) Those grains produced like crazy from the very beginning. I was

> really impressed after that disappointing first batch.

Thanks, Carol. That's helpful to know.

> She'd had them in

> raw milk, but I put them into ultrapasteurized milk. The first batch of

> kefir I made from them was wonderful. (I included the kefir they came with

> in the batch.) The next batch after that was disappointing - milk

> consistency and wouldn't even make rivulets down the side of a glass after

> 24-36 hours of culturing.

You evidently need to give kefir grains some time to adjust after

putting them in a different type of milk. I've noticed that's the case

when going from raw goats milk to pasteurized milk, and vice versa. It

takes them a couple of batches to adjust and start producing thick

kefir again. It's probably best to stick with one type of milk of you

can, tho I realize that's not always possible. In our case, our raw

goat milk source has dried up for the winter so we've had to switch

for now.

I really don't think it's the pasteurization that is affecting your

kefir. In fact, it seems that pasteurized milk generally produces a

thicker kefir than raw milk does.

Fern

[Guest guest]

Del,

No, they weren't from Heidi. I was just commenting on my experience about the

difference between sending grains with or without milk.

Carol

Carol,

Are all these grains you are talking about sent from Heidi? The

reason I ask is because you say one was sent in raw milk and I know

Heidi doesn't use raw milk unless she changed without my knowing.

Del

[Guest guest]

Fern,

I was using ultrapasteurized milk, not just pasteurized. I have read that

pasteurized will work, but not ULTRApasteurized, and that has been my

experience. I made many batches with it - weeks worth, so it wasn't just being

stunted, because of change of milk. And, in fact, the first batch I made, after

the switch from raw milk, was great. It was every batch after that, that went

down hill. The grains have not multiplied in all this time. The only way I

have been able to get it to thicken and be anything more than just milk, is to

let it culture in the refrigerator for days, as opposed to hours. I think the

'ultra' is the key here.

Carol

I really don't think it's the pasteurization that is affecting your

kefir. In fact, it seems that pasteurized milk generally produces a

thicker kefir than raw milk does.

Fern

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:46:09 -0800, Carol <cah@...> wrote:

> Fern,

> I was using ultrapasteurized milk, not just pasteurized. I have read that

> pasteurized will work, but not ULTRApasteurized, and that has been my

> experience. I made many batches with it - weeks worth, so it wasn't just

> being stunted, because of change of milk. And, in fact, the first batch I

> made, after the switch from raw milk, was great. It was every batch after

> that, that went down hill. The grains have not multiplied in all this time.

> The only way I have been able to get it to thicken and be anything more

> than just milk, is to let it culture in the refrigerator for days, as

> opposed to hours. I think the 'ultra' is the key here.

> Carol

I see ... my apologies. I guess I didn't realize there was such a big

difference between pasteurized and ultrapasteruized. Is it difficult

to get pasteurized milk (as opposed to ultrapasteurized) in Canada?

Just wondering how difficult it will be for my friend to make kefir.

Fern

[Guest guest]

>>I see ... my apologies. I guess I didn't realize there was such a big

difference between pasteurized and ultrapasteruized. Is it difficult

to get pasteurized milk (as opposed to ultrapasteurized) in Canada?

Just wondering how difficult it will be for my friend to make kefir.

Fern<<

~~~I don't know about Canada. I live in eastern Washington State, only about

200 miles from the border, but just not close enough to tell. :-) I have

trouble getting regular pasteurized milk close to home, though. I can get it in

a health food store about 20 miles from me, but that's not very convenient, if

you want to make kefir to drink every day, especially with snow on the ground,

which we have today. (I was trying to switch from probiotics in supplement form

to kefir for gut health.)

Carol

[Guest guest]

> ~~~I don't know about Canada. I live in eastern Washington State, only

> about 200 miles from the border, but just not close enough to tell. :-) I

> have trouble getting regular pasteurized milk close to home, though. I can

> get it in a health food store about 20 miles from me, but that's not very

> convenient, if you want to make kefir to drink every day, especially with

> snow on the ground, which we have today. (I was trying to switch from

> probiotics in supplement form to kefir for gut health.)

> Carol

How about kefiring juice or even herb tea? Dom has a good section on

his site that explains how to do it, and if you do a search for

Heidi's " kefir beer " on this list you'll find some good info here,

also. I've just tried it recently and it seems to work pretty well.

Just keep a backup of your kefir grains in pasteurized milk. If you

kefir juice when you can't get pasteurized milk, you'll at least have

the probiotics to carry over until you can get it again.

Fern

[Guest guest]

Was that ultra-pasteurized milk also organic? Organic is key. I

could see my grains going downhill using ultra-pasteurized but not

organic. Can you find some Organic Horizon pasteurized milk non-

homogenized where you are? That milk works. Are your grains still

alive, I mean are they squishy?

Del

" Carol " wrote:

> Fern,

> I was using ultrapasteurized milk, not just pasteurized. I have

read that pasteurized will work, but not ULTRApasteurized, and that

has been my experience. I made many batches with it - weeks worth,

so it wasn't just being stunted, because of change of milk. And, in

fact, the first batch I made, after the switch from raw milk, was

great. It was every batch after that, that went down hill. The

grains have not multiplied in all this time. The only way I have

been able to get it to thicken and be anything more than just milk,

is to let it culture in the refrigerator for days, as opposed to

hours. I think the 'ultra' is the key here.

> Carol

>

>

> I really don't think it's the pasteurization that is affecting your

> kefir. In fact, it seems that pasteurized milk generally produces a

> thicker kefir than raw milk does.

>

> Fern

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Fern,

I didn't realize that kefired juice had probiotics! So I can still

use my kefir grains and make kefired juice! Great!

Del

Fern wrote:

> > ~~~I don't know about Canada. I live in eastern Washington

State, only

> > about 200 miles from the border, but just not close enough to

tell. :-) I

> > have trouble getting regular pasteurized milk close to home,

though. I can

> > get it in a health food store about 20 miles from me, but that's

not very

> > convenient, if you want to make kefir to drink every day,

especially with

> > snow on the ground, which we have today. (I was trying to

switch from

> > probiotics in supplement form to kefir for gut health.)

> > Carol

>

> How about kefiring juice or even herb tea? Dom has a good section

on

> his site that explains how to do it, and if you do a search for

> Heidi's " kefir beer " on this list you'll find some good info here,

> also. I've just tried it recently and it seems to work pretty well.

> Just keep a backup of your kefir grains in pasteurized milk. If you

> kefir juice when you can't get pasteurized milk, you'll at least

have

> the probiotics to carry over until you can get it again.

>

> Fern

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:30:35 -0000, Del Eaton <deleaton@...> wrote:

>

> Fern,

> I didn't realize that kefired juice had probiotics! So I can still

> use my kefir grains and make kefired juice! Great!

>

> Del

Hi Del,

Check out this part of Dom's site:

http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/Makekefir.html#Grape-juice_Kefir

I'd really like to try kefiring herbal tea next.

Also, do a search in the archives for " kefir beer " . Lots of info there!

Fern

[Guest guest]

I have already searched Dom's website for kefiring juice and

couldn't find anything. So thanks for the link (I haven't used it as

yet so may have questions later).

I made the kefir beer last year but have got to have a refresher

course. I did search the archives but I think it's too far back for

my patience, LOL. So maybe Heidi will come on and give the

recipe....again.

Thanks,

Del

Fern wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:30:35 -0000, Del Eaton <deleaton@d...>

wrote:

> >

> > Fern,

> > I didn't realize that kefired juice had probiotics! So I can

still

> > use my kefir grains and make kefired juice! Great!

> >

> > Del

>

> Hi Del,

>

> Check out this part of Dom's site:

>

> http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/Makekefir.html#Grape-juice_Kefir

>

> I'd really like to try kefiring herbal tea next.

>

> Also, do a search in the archives for " kefir beer " . Lots of info

there!

>

> Fern

[Guest guest]

Yes, it was organic ultrapasteurized milk. I keep forgetting to mention it was

organic. I haven't used any milk except organic. I had some Horizon Organic

pasteurized, but it was homogenized. (That's the kind I can get 20 miles from

here, and is the best I can get, except for raw farther away.) I'm still amazed

that the organic milk close by is homogenized and ultrapasteurized.

Carol

Was that ultra-pasteurized milk also organic? Organic is key. I

could see my grains going downhill using ultra-pasteurized but not

organic. Can you find some Organic Horizon pasteurized milk non-

homogenized where you are? That milk works. Are your grains still

alive, I mean are they squishy?

Del

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:35:11 -0800 (PST), Pratick Mukherjee

<pratickmukherjee@...> wrote:

> Most milk in Canada is pasteurized, rather than ultrapasteurized.

> When I lived in the US, I found that most brands of milk were

> ultrapasteurized - even

> organic.

>

> I don't think your friend should have any problems in getting organic

> pasteurized milk -

> even un-homogenised, if he/she prefers that.

Thanks, Pratick. Do you have any idea where he can get unhomogenised

milk in or near Calgary? Are you or anyone else familiar with that

area? Also, sources for grass-fed meats would be great to know also.

Thanks,

Fern

[Guest guest]

I didn't realize the kind of milk makes a big difference for kefir. I

use grass-fed raw cow's milk. This hasn't changed as the kefir's food

for a long time - though I'm sure the cows are eating more hay than

grass at this time of year.

I've noticed that I do things backwards. Culture my raw milk and use

my regular store bought goat's milk in tea and grain coffee (mostly

grain and gluten free except my addiction to this stuff). Perhaps I

should try culturing the goat's milk but I find it lasts longer than

the raw milk which I have to use in less than a week or it starts to

taste funny.

Shera