Re: B12 through the roof....are we wasting our time and money?

[Guest guest]

Biology  IS  a science;  but not like physics.So as long as the gains are better than any problems:  I'd go with the gains, in biology.  The science will catch up eventually.It is not that numbers lie or tell the truth:  it is much more that there are not enough numbers to tell the whole story.  Think of biomed stuff as being like weather forecasting:  perhaps like rain dancing done with cloud seeding.  Am I painting a useful picture or just being mysterious ?My pediatrician called today to tell me that not only is my son not deficient in B12, his numbers are "through the roof" and "off the charts"...she has been emphatic all along that this biomed stuff is all bogus and a waste of our time and money. However, when we give the shots and spray we see gains in language and regulating and our son has met his 9 month to 1 year goals in under four months. She says, "Placebo effect...the numbers don't lie."What's up? Is it possible that he really has no deficit in the b12 department - then why the improved language? Coincidence? Di

[Guest guest]

I agree with . OMG, the sheer ignorance of these so called professionals... has this 'doctor' never heard that megadoses have been and are being used in many neurological disorders, regardless of blood levels??? It took me less than 10 minutes to find heaps of info on this, freely available to anyone who bothers to look. Oh, but why should she, she is only a doctor So she has probably never heard of a localised b12 deficiencies (sometimes confined to parts of brain)... and she is probably blissfully unaware of something called Hereditary partial transcobalamin II deficiency, where levels stay nearly normal well into adulthood... just some examples here, quoting most interesting bits, including studies:"…While most doctors would never consider such a possibility, studies have documented local cerebral deficiencies of B12 (using cerebrospinal fluid levels as a measure) in people with Alzheimer's disease, postpartum depression, and toxic neuropsychiatric disorders, including toxic depression. Cees van Tiggelen and associates suspect this cryptic condition may also commonly afflict people with histories of nitrous oxide or Agent Orange intoxication, alcoholics (including those with alcohol-related dementia), long-term users of dilantin, and people with brain atrophy.B12 has its mainstream advocates too. In 1975, psychiatrists K. Geagea and Jambur Ananth, then at McGill University, remarked that "astonishing results can be obtained in some cases with B12 therapy, even if B12 levels are within normal range." They had just described one such case. Their young patient's two year depression had landed him in Montreal's Jewish General Hospital after a suicide attempt. Because the man had had a total gastrectomy nine years earlier – a risk factor for B12 deficiency – and because his treatment-resistant symptoms had become progressively more psychotic and neurologic in quality, Geagea and Ananth took a leap of faith. The man's B12 levels were normal, but they gave him B12 shots anyway. "The response to this therapeutic trial," they wrote, "was dramatic. The patient was discharged eight days later with complete remission." He was still well three years later.In 1999, in their book Stop Depression Now, Columbia University psychiatrist Brown and Baylor University neuropharmacologist Teodoro Bottiglieri (a leader in vitamin/depression research) recommend that all psychiatric patients take a daily megadose of 1 mg of oral B12…."Intern Med. 1994 Feb;33(2):82-6. Vitamin B12 metabolism and massive-dose methyl vitamin B12 therapy in Japanese patients with multiple sclerosis. Kira J, Tobimatsu S, Goto I. Department of Neurology, Faculty of Medicine, Kyushu University, Fukuoka. Serum vitamin B12 levels and unsaturated vitamin B12 binding capacities were measured in 24 patients with multiple sclerosis (MS), 73 patients with other neurological disorders and 21 healthy subjects. There was no decrease in the vitamin B12 levels, however, a significant decrease in the unsaturated vitamin B12 binding capacities was observed in patients with MS when compared with other groups. A massive dose of methyl vitamin B12 (60 mg every day for 6 months) was administered to 6 patients with chronic progressive MS, a disease which usually had a morbid prognosis and widespread demyelination in the central nervous system. Although the motor disability did not improve clinically, the abnormalities in both the visual and brainstem auditory evoked potentials improved more frequently during the therapy than in the pre-treatment period. We therefore consider that a massive dose methyl vitamin B12 therapy may be useful as an adjunct to immunosuppressive treatment for chronic progressive MS. PMID: 8019047 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Isr Med Assoc J. 2003 Dec;5(12):868-72. Hereditary partial transcobalamin II deficiency with neurologic, mental and hematologic abnormalities in children and adults. Teplitsky V, Huminer D, Zoldan J, Pitlik S, Shohat M, Mittelman M. Department of Medicine C, Rabin Medical Center (Beilinson Campus), Petah Tiqva, Israel. teplit@... BACKGROUND: Transcobalamin II is a serum transport protein for vitamin B12. Small variations in TC-II affinity were recently linked to a high homocysteine level and increased frequency of neural tube defects. Complete absence of TC-II or total functional abnormality causes tissue vitamin B12 deficiency resulting in a severe disease with megaloblastic anemia and immunologic and intestinal abnormalities in the first months of life. This condition was described in hereditary autosomal-recessive form. Low serum TC-II without any symptoms or clinical significance was noted in relatives of affected homozygotes. OBJECTIVES: To study 23 members of a four-generation family with hereditary vitamin B12 deficiency and neurologic disorders. METHODS: Thorough neurologic, hematologic and family studies were supplemented by transcobalamin studies in 20 family members. RESULTS: Partial TC-II deficiency was found in 19 subjects. Apo TC-II (free TC-II unbound to vitamin B12) and total unsaturated B12 binding capacity were low in all tested individuals but one, and holo TC-II (TC-II bound by vitamin B12) was low in all family members. The presentation of the disease was chronic rather than acute. Early signs in children and young adults were dyslexia, decreased IQ, vertigo, plantar clonus and personality disorders. Interestingly, affected children and young adults had normal or slightly decreased serum vitamin B12 levels but were not anemic. Low serum B12 levels were measured in early adulthood. In mid-late adulthood megaloblastic anemia and subacute combined degeneration of the spinal cord were diagnosed. Treatment with B12 injections resulted in a significant improvement. The pedigree is compatible with an autosomal-dominant transmission. This family study suggests a genetic heterogeneity of TC-II deficiency. CONCLUSIONS: We report the first family with a hereditary transmitted condition of low serum TC-II (partial TC-II deficiency) associated with neurologic and mental manifestations in childhood. Partial TC-II deficiency may decrease the amount of stored cobalamin, resulting in increased susceptibility to impaired intestinal delivery of cobalamin and predisposing to clinically expressed megaloblastic anemia at a later age. Partial TC-II deficiency should be suspected in families with megaloblastic anemia and in individuals with neurologic and mental disturbances--despite normal serum vitamin B12 levels. Low serum UBBC and apo TC-II should confirm the diagnosis. Early vitamin B12 therapy may prevent irreversible neurologic damage. PMID: 14689755 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Rinsho Shinkeigaku. 2003 Sep;43(9):552-5.Links [A case of subacute combined degeneration with normal serum vitamin B12 level] [Article in Japanese] Nagaishi A, Takashima H, Fukuda Y, Kuroda Y. Department of Internal Medicine, Sasebo City General Hospital. A 40-year-old woman was admitted to our hospital because of pancytopenia with megaloblastic anemia. Two months later she complained of rapidly progressive gait disturbance and numbness in the distal part of limbs. She also told that her hair had turned totally gray in the third decade. Neurologically, mental state, cranial nerves and cerebellar functions were normal. Superficial sensations were impaired below the lower thoracic level and deep sensations were completely lost in the lower limbs. Moderate weakness was found in the lower limbs, symmetrically. Deep tendon reflexes were diminished in the upper limbs and absent in the lower limbs. Babinski's reflex was positive bilaterally. MR images of the spinal cord showed hyperintensity in the posterior column below the thoracic cord. Although the serum level of vitamin B12 was within normal range, serum homocysteine level was elevated markedly. Under the diagnosis of subacute combined degeneration (SCD) due to possible vitamin B12 deficiency, the treatment with intravenous injections of 500 micrograms/day of mecobalamin was undertaken. Muscle strength and sensory impairment improved progressively and she became able to walk with a cane. The coloration of her gray hair was also noted. After treatment, pancytopenia and megaloblastic anemia also markedly improved. Vitamin B12 became high in serum concentration and the serum level of homocysteine became normal. These clinical and laboratory findings support the diagnosis of SCD with normal serum level of vitamin B12 in our case, suggesting that the level of vitamin B12 in serum does not always correlate with that in tissue and, therefore, SCD should not be excluded just only by the reason of normal serum vitamin B12 level. PMID: 14727562 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Brain Nerve. 2007 Oct;59(10):1141-7.Links [Clinical trials of ultra-high-dose methylcobalamin in ALS] [Article in Japanese] Izumi Y, Kaji R. Department of Clinical Neuroscience, Institute of Health Bioscience, The University of Tokushima, Graduate School, 50-1 Kuramoto-cho, Tokushima 770-8503, Japan. Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) is a neurodegenerative disorder affecting both upper and lower motor neurons. Weakness may begin in the legs, hands, proximal arms, or pharynx. The course is relentless and progressive without remissions, relapses, or even stable plateaus. There is no effective drug therapy for ALS, although riluzole has been shown to prolong life in sufferers, without tracheostomy. A vitamin B12 analog, methylcobalamin, has a protective effect on cultured cortical neurons against glutamate-induced cytotoxicity. We have shown the ultra-high-dose methylcobalamin (25 mg/day i.m.) slows down the progressive reduction of the CMAP (compound muscle action potential) amplitudes in ALS in the short term (4 weeks). The latencies of SSR (sympathetic skin response) were shorter after treatment (50 mg/day i.v., 2 weeks). In the long-term effect of methylcobalamin (50 mg/day i.m., twice a week), the survival time (or the period to become respirator-bound) was significantly longer in the treated group than in the untreated. Larger-scale randomized double blind trial was started in Japan in order to evaluate the long-term efficacy and the safety of ultra-high-dose methylcobalamin for sporadic or familial cases of ALS. PMID: 17969354 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]> > > My pediatrician called today to tell me that not only is my son not> > deficient in B12, his numbers are "through the roof" and "off the> > charts"...she has been emphatic all along that this biomed stuff is > > all> > bogus and a waste of our time and money. However, when we give the> > shots and spray we see gains in language and regulating and our son > > has> > met his 9 month to 1 year goals in under four months. She> > says, "Placebo effect...the numbers don't lie."> >> > What's up? Is it possible that he really has no deficit in the b12> > department - then why the improved language? Coincidence? Di>

[Guest guest]

It might be something called " wasting " where our kids just aren't able

to absorb something very well so a lot of it leaches out - thus the

need for a very high dose. If you are seeing gains, I wouldn't stop.

But if you are extremely concerned and want to stop, you can probably

stop it briefly and see if you see a drop off in the gains. My guess is

that you will. That happend with my son a few years ago when we

unintentionally stopped giving him the shots because I forgot to pack

it during vacation. In less than a week his speech slurred, he became

less focused and distant. Within a few days of administering the shot,

he was back to himself. However, we were able to stop the shots

completely last fall (after we started Valtrex and HBOT in the summer)

and he was just fine.

No matter what a doc tells you, you are the best judge in gauging what

helps your child. If something works, keep up the good work! : )

>

> My pediatrician called today to tell me that not only is my son not

> deficient in B12, his numbers are " through the roof " and " off the

> charts " ...she has been emphatic all along that this biomed stuff is

all

> bogus and a waste of our time and money. However, when we give the

> shots and spray we see gains in language and regulating and our son

has

> met his 9 month to 1 year goals in under four months. She

> says, " Placebo effect...the numbers don't lie. "

>

> What's up? Is it possible that he really has no deficit in the b12

> department - then why the improved language? Coincidence? Di

>

[Guest guest]

As explained by our DAN! today, whom is also a MD, high serum b12 numbers

indicate that perhaps the uptake of b12 is the problem and not the lack of

b12. It will be high in serum (blood) but will be low in other places in the

body where it needs to be. In other words, it is being kept in the blood but

not going to the brain or other organs. What you need to go by is what you

see as an effect of using the b12, not what the blood tests shows. If you

use something and it has a positive effect, chances are that it is something

you (or your child) needs and is something you should continue doing until

it is no longer helping or causing ill effects. Our pediatrician told us the

same thing as yours told you. Too much b12...., but alas, when we supplement

the b12, we get language gains...... It is such a bigger picture than most

(but not all) of our pediatricians and doctors are NOT trained to look at.

Go with your gut instinct and with the evidence you have. It is a water

soluble vitamin and from my understanding you cant overdose it.

B12 through the roof....are we wasting our time and

money?

> My pediatrician called today to tell me that not only is my son not

> deficient in B12, his numbers are " through the roof " and " off the

> charts " ...she has been emphatic all along that this biomed stuff is all

> bogus and a waste of our time and money. However, when we give the

> shots and spray we see gains in language and regulating and our son has

> met his 9 month to 1 year goals in under four months. She

> says, " Placebo effect...the numbers don't lie. "

>

> What's up? Is it possible that he really has no deficit in the b12

> department - then why the improved language? Coincidence? Di

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