RE: lonewolf - depression

June 26, 2002

I have been diagnosed with depression also. About a year ago I was

suicidal. I'm currently taking an anti-depressant and I see a therapist

regularly. This list has been wonderful for me. I haven't gotten back to

where I was 10 years ago, but I am improving. Growing up as a KO affected

so many parts of my life. I never developed boundaries and I tend to be

hypervigilant to a myriad of things. I always wonder when people are going

to make me out to be a " bad " person and begin a distortion campaign. It's

affected my marriage, my social life, and my work life. This is what I

experienced growing up and I wait for it to happen now. But like I said, I

am improving. I have my ups and downs now. It's been more up lately. I'm

learning to be in control of my life. But it's late for me and I need my

sleep.

Later

lonewolf - depression

Hi lonewolf:

I suffer from depression also. I suffered a trauma a few years ago --

and it came to a head when I " needed " my mother to be a good mother -

- and of course she was still " nada " !

I have recovered very much, but I'm still struggling with the

depression.

Maybe we can compare notes on how we're dealing with the depression.

Thanks for sharing your story.

Barb

> Helen, over at bpdcentral, recommended this sight for me since I'm

an

> adult child of a bpd.

> My history is that two years ago I got married to a very

wonderfully

> healthy person. I thought I'd come to grips with a lot of my past

> experiences on my own and through myriad therapists while in high

> school. But not until I was genuinely in a healthy relationship

where

> I care as much about my husband's welfare as my own did I realize

how

> much was left unsettled from own childhood. The gist of it is that

I

> fell into a great depression I'd been avoiding for years 6 months

into

> our marriage and went to stay a week with my new sister and brother

in

> laws. She, my sister-in-law, is a psychiatrist and when i told her

a

> lot of what was ailing me, the never ending yo-yo effects of my

> mother, she gave me the book " I hate you, don't leave me " to read.

It

> wasn't until I was 29 and had been through 7 therapists in my youth

> and early 20s that someone finally put a name on it. Reading that

> book made me feel so comforted that what my mother suffers from has

a

> name and I wasn't imagining all the Jekle and Hyde symptoms she hid

> from the world and saved solely for my brother and I.

>

> I admit, part of me is still a little outraged at the medical

> profession even though it was my Doctor sister-in-law that helped

me

> so much. I tried to kill myself when I was 17 and my brother

> attempted suicide as well when he was 18. All those therapists and

> all the time in counseling never once revealed that it was not so

much

> my brother and my depression that were at the root of the problem,

but

> rather my mother's own personality disorder that makes for a

terrible

> mother that drove us both to try and take our own lives. Granted,

> some of the coping mechanisms I learned helped make it day by day,

but

> I still think it's such a failure to my family that we were

diagnosed

> with the major problem and my mother slipped through the cracks and

> always will. It's sad and pathetic, but here I am trying to learn

> more about this illness.

>

> For starters, I don't really care to go into too much more detail

than

> what I've already shared. I could share horror story upon horror

> story like the ones I've read. I don't think any of the horror

> stories matter nearly as much as the fact my brother and I tried to

> take our own lives and so that is the bottom line for me right

> now...learning to make peace with my past. I don't hate my mother

or

> my father and I don't want to make them out to be monsters. They

are

> sick people but they make their own parents out as monsters and

> thereby never take responsibility for the fact they've got choices

> over the rest of their lives...well not my dad. He died when I was

8

> and in many ways I thank God he did die just because his family is

the

> one with the major issues of BPD and after 11 years of my mom being

> married to him, she's very much a BPD also. His family, however, is

> textbook and I've got two cousins who simultaneously discovered BPD

> when I did. It is a relief to know that they found it out on their

> own too considering the option is to repeat the cycles.

>

> I've started to come out my depression after starting therapy last

> July and I plan on continuing therapy for a while to come just

because

> there is a never ending worry in the back on my mind that I could

> possibly turn out to be as screwed up as my parents. The older I

get,

> the more I realize this is impossible because of the patterns I've

> created for my own destiny. Yet it wasn't until last year that my

> limits were actually realized once and for all and my foot went

down.

> It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do telling my mom that I

> no longer cared about all the past abuse she suffered, but rather

> cared more about the fact she needed to own up to her own abuse

she'd

> dished out my brother and I for so many years. It was not so much

a

> lack of compassion I gave my mom as it was for once in my life

giving

> myself the compassion and emotional integrity that she would never

be

> able to give me. It's hard to learn self-esteem, valuing of one's

own

> emotions, personal integrity when being raised by a BPD. The key

thing

> that helped me in my conversation with her was to continually over

> rider her justifications with statements of how I felt, to not let

her

> pull me into sympathizing with her when my own emotional

experiences

> were and are just as legitimate as her's. It's impossible to argue

> feelings and so many people don't seem to understand that they've

got

> a right to their feelings - I didn't for the longest time.

>

> I'm walking a very different pathway the those that were handed to

me.

> Yet I find myself continually having to watch out for my weakness

of

> being pulled back into those former games I'd play with my mom -

> rescuer, etc. I guess I'm just sad and I grieve for what I went

> through and what everyone who lives with one of these people has to

go

> through. I have no desire any longer to fix the problem - my

mom's,

> my psycho grandmother's, my dad's, my aunts or uncles or anyone

elses

> for that matter. I just want to be at peace for once with my past

so

> that the new chapters will be very different and more liberating

than

> what I've come from. And that's where I am for today and right

now.

> Thanks for letting me share.

June 27, 2002

Barb,

I won't really go into the details of how I got thrown into this last

bout of depression, but nada kicked it off. By the way, what does

nada stand for? LOL. Just curious.

My nada can function really smoothly for a while and be the sweetest

person on the planet, really wants to be a good mom and will apologize

for all the years of abuse, then turn in a random heartbeat back to

her old betraying self. I had no idea that what she has is called

Borderling Personality Disorder until my last bout with depression. (I

would say I was depressed in high school too, but not after I moved

away at age 19 and I'm 31 now)

I started going into depression after Thanksgiving of 2000, six months

after I got married and had gone up to visit family on Nada's side.

She pulled a real episode stabbing me in the back for the umpteenth

million time just out of no where. She'd been a real gem and doll all

through the wedding (well almost. I yelled at her the day of my

wedding because she was freaking out and starting crap again with me

and I was calm b/c I'd planned it all out and wanted to chill and have

fun. Thank God for my goodfriends, bridemaids who promptly got nada

out of my hair all day) and she doesn't seem to turn as frequently as

some I've read about (but she would if I stilled lived with her I'm

certain). She's got about a once a year or every now and then habit

of turning on me and this was just the breaking straw for me. I

didn't want to start my marriage off with all these crazy habits my

nada had taught me and I didn't want her in my life at all anymore if

she got to me so bad that I ended up so depressed.

I went on Zoloft at the end of December and tried to start therapy.

My first therapist sucked royally - fresh out of college and kind of

passive aggessive calling me from her house saying she'd be late to

therapy - weirdo if you ask me. I went and stayed a week with my

psychiatrist new sister-in-law and described why I was so utterly

depressed and she gave the book " I Hate You. Don't Leave Me. " to read

and said my mom sounds very much like a functioning BPD. I read the

book and was astounded to find her illness had a name and I'd not

imagined these traits my whole life. It was the biggest relief in the

word to read those pages and have affirmation finally. I'd gone to 8

different therapists from the time I was 8 until 22 and no one ever

said my mom had a problem- despite my brother and my suicide attempts.

She flew always under the radar and loved the whole notion in the

80's of 'tough love'.

As you probably know with anti-depressents, you take them for a month

or so and then have to increase the quantity slightly. Well when I

came to the point of increasing and was feeling the pains of

depression really strong again, I just said 'screw it'. I hate drugs,

pills and such, just because my mom's always had a stock pile of them.

The only addiction I've ever had was cigarrettes and I've always been

petrified of being a drug addict, alcoholic, co-dependant and all the

addictive behaviors my mom's always had. So I just stopped taking them

and decided that I didn't know what to do next but I knew I had to

tell my nada why I'd been avoiding her phone calls and why I didn't

want to talk to her for a long time. I had a conversation with her

and she pulled all the BPD feel sorry for me routines I'd always heard

to justify her abuse and I just kept coming back with 'it's not about

you mom. it's about me now.' Through the tears, uncertainity and

random screams of her losing control over her favorite punching bag,

she had to learn to live with the fact I've got the freedom to walk

away at any given time in my life from the toxicity she brings to my

life. And so that was the beginning of me getting me better.

I was afraid of therapy for a while just because of the psycho I dealt

with in December for two sessions and then all of therapists I had

growing up that I saw as failing my brother and I. But my

sister-in-law stayed on me about making sure I did something about me.

I interviewed three therapists on the phone and settled with one I

felt really good about- I trust my gut feelings more than anything in

the world when it comes to bonding with people since I've always

picked true winners in my friends and my husband's about as awesome as

they come. And so I started therapy last July.

It's been hard and I've taken baby steps and dictated the pace of my

recovery, which is nice since nadas seem to dictate everything in the

lives of their punching bag children. I wanted to be depressed for a

while- not to be rushed and not feel suicidal like in high school to

get attention and out of her house. I needed to grieve for so much in

my past so that I could truly begin my new life with my husband with

very little interaction from nada. I needed to let go of so much

impossibilities and dreams that most children take for granted as

normal and just find my own limits in life. My sister-in-law is one

the best people I've ever met and gave me so much help on not rushing

myself or trying to solve all my problems overnight- the bandaid

effect.

Growing up in my middle and high school years, I rarely got sick just

because I knew nada couldn't nurture me and I didn't want her version

of nurturance. My brother would get sick all the time, hypochondria,

just because my mom's kind of like a psychological Munch-housen

Biproxy (sp?) mother. So in my depression I have learned to let my

husband, my new family, my friends and every other person who really

loves me take care of me for once. I've never been good at leaning on

people just because I was so afraid of falling into my nada's zone and

someone had to remain semi-sane in my family. Of course I'm

ultimately responsible for my recovery and I do not at all let my

husband adopt my anger towards my nada just because I tell him I don't

want him to have this same disease and it's not his battle to fight,

but mine. I've had quite a few bestfriends and have been able to

maintain good friendship for many years, unlike my mother who doesn't

value women at all, and never would I have imagined that my husband

would be my bestfriend and more. I really was against marriage for

the longest time b/c nada's warpped version of marrying someone who's

BPD also and abusive (my dad) and then someone she didn't love so she

didn't lose custody and my brother and I (my former step-dad).

Nada pulled some garbage two weeks ago that set me back slightly, but

I got up and left the room when she started putting me down infront of

the family. I was mad and just removed myself from the situation

rather than internalizing and lower my own self-esteem. I'm not

raging, however, like I was, like all depressed people are at their

core. I was just mad at nada and have determined that twice a year of

seeing her is still more than I can handle for now. Christmas will

have to be it and that's debatable for this year if something better

comes up. I've no desire to waste my money on therapy if that makes

sense. She's called a couple of times this week b/c she heard I

talked to my aunt twice last week- God is there other nonBPs here who

have problems with nada's ringing ears and psychic invasion of an

individual's space too? I've not called her back and won't until I

feel like I can handle talking to her. Not sure what I'll say and not

sure if I'll say anything it all.

So far she's flown here for the first time since I moved a year ago

for my b-day in April and then I saw her a weekend before Father's Day

for breakfast in NY when we were both up there at the same time. Then

for Father's Day she started acting all Jekle and Hyde again with that

public family beratement of me. So she's cut off from me for a while

now and that's how I will continue to operate. She can't handle a

normal relationship with dignity and respect towards me for too long

and so it's up to me to set the boundaries. Her loss is how I see it

now days as I don't think I'm losing out on much at all considering my

life is pretty good considering all things. She wants me to continue

growing healthy and refuses to get in couseling herself - wants me to

continue playing the parenting role. That's not happening, however,

as I no longer care that much about her needs as much as I do feel for

my own needs for once in my life.

Now that was a lot more than I planned on typing. I'm going to sign

off here in a second. But that's how I've dealt with my depression -

one step at a time, one day at a time and just feeling or not feeling

whatever it was that I had at that moment. There are many things I've

not tackled yet and things that I may never tackle just because I

don't have to and am learning I don't have to solve all my problems-

it's unrealistic. That's how I need to approach things though and

depression is different for everyone...kind of like no two BPDs are

exactly alike as I'm finding out.

Peace,

Kere

> > Helen, over at bpdcentral, recommended this sight for me since I'm

> an

> > adult child of a bpd.

> > My history is that two years ago I got married to a very

> wonderfully

> > healthy person. I thought I'd come to grips with a lot of my past

> > experiences on my own and through myriad therapists while in high

> > school. But not until I was genuinely in a healthy relationship

> where

> > I care as much about my husband's welfare as my own did I realize

> how

> > much was left unsettled from own childhood. The gist of it is

that

> I

> > fell into a great depression I'd been avoiding for years 6 months

> into

> > our marriage and went to stay a week with my new sister and

brother

> in

> > laws. She, my sister-in-law, is a psychiatrist and when i told

her

> a

> > lot of what was ailing me, the never ending yo-yo effects of my

> > mother, she gave me the book " I hate you, don't leave me " to read.

> It

> > wasn't until I was 29 and had been through 7 therapists in my

youth

> > and early 20s that someone finally put a name on it. Reading that

> > book made me feel so comforted that what my mother suffers from

has

> a

> > name and I wasn't imagining all the Jekle and Hyde symptoms she

hid

> > from the world and saved solely for my brother and I.

> >

> > I admit, part of me is still a little outraged at the medical

> > profession even though it was my Doctor sister-in-law that helped

> me

> > so much. I tried to kill myself when I was 17 and my brother

> > attempted suicide as well when he was 18. All those therapists

and

> > all the time in counseling never once revealed that it was not so

> much

> > my brother and my depression that were at the root of the problem,

> but

> > rather my mother's own personality disorder that makes for a

> terrible

> > mother that drove us both to try and take our own lives. Granted,

> > some of the coping mechanisms I learned helped make it day by day,

> but

> > I still think it's such a failure to my family that we were

> diagnosed

> > with the major problem and my mother slipped through the cracks

and

> > always will. It's sad and pathetic, but here I am trying to learn

> > more about this illness.

> >

> > For starters, I don't really care to go into too much more detail

> than

> > what I've already shared. I could share horror story upon horror

> > story like the ones I've read. I don't think any of the horror

> > stories matter nearly as much as the fact my brother and I tried

to

> > take our own lives and so that is the bottom line for me right

> > now...learning to make peace with my past. I don't hate my mother

> or

> > my father and I don't want to make them out to be monsters. They

> are

> > sick people but they make their own parents out as monsters and

> > thereby never take responsibility for the fact they've got choices

> > over the rest of their lives...well not my dad. He died when I

was

> 8

> > and in many ways I thank God he did die just because his family is

> the

> > one with the major issues of BPD and after 11 years of my mom

being

> > married to him, she's very much a BPD also. His family, however,

is

> > textbook and I've got two cousins who simultaneously discovered

BPD

> > when I did. It is a relief to know that they found it out on

their

> > own too considering the option is to repeat the cycles.

> >

> > I've started to come out my depression after starting therapy last

> > July and I plan on continuing therapy for a while to come just

> because

> > there is a never ending worry in the back on my mind that I could

> > possibly turn out to be as screwed up as my parents. The older I

> get,

> > the more I realize this is impossible because of the patterns I've

> > created for my own destiny. Yet it wasn't until last year that my

> > limits were actually realized once and for all and my foot went

> down.

> > It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do telling my mom that

I

> > no longer cared about all the past abuse she suffered, but rather

> > cared more about the fact she needed to own up to her own abuse

> she'd

> > dished out my brother and I for so many years. It was not so much

> a

> > lack of compassion I gave my mom as it was for once in my life

> giving

> > myself the compassion and emotional integrity that she would never

> be

> > able to give me. It's hard to learn self-esteem, valuing of one's

> own

> > emotions, personal integrity when being raised by a BPD. The key

> thing

> > that helped me in my conversation with her was to continually over

> > rider her justifications with statements of how I felt, to not let

> her

> > pull me into sympathizing with her when my own emotional

> experiences

> > were and are just as legitimate as her's. It's impossible to

argue

> > feelings and so many people don't seem to understand that they've

> got

> > a right to their feelings - I didn't for the longest time.

> >

> > I'm walking a very different pathway the those that were handed to

> me.

> > Yet I find myself continually having to watch out for my weakness

> of

> > being pulled back into those former games I'd play with my mom -

> > rescuer, etc. I guess I'm just sad and I grieve for what I went

> > through and what everyone who lives with one of these people has

to

> go

> > through. I have no desire any longer to fix the problem - my

> mom's,

> > my psycho grandmother's, my dad's, my aunts or uncles or anyone

> elses

> > for that matter. I just want to be at peace for once with my past

> so

> > that the new chapters will be very different and more liberating

> than

> > what I've come from. And that's where I am for today and right

> now.

> > Thanks for letting me share.

June 27, 2002

Congratulations, Kere! Celebrations in the street! Ticker tape

parade! Balloons in the sky!

Smiles!

Carol

lonewolfe30 wrote:

> But that's how I've dealt with my depression -

> one step at a time, one day at a time and just feeling or not feeling

> whatever it was that I had at that moment. There are many things I've

> not tackled yet and things that I may never tackle just because I

> don't have to and am learning I don't have to solve all my problems-

> it's unrealistic. That's how I need to approach things though and

> depression is different for everyone...kind of like no two BPDs are

> exactly alike as I'm finding out.

June 27, 2002

> > > Helen, over at bpdcentral, recommended this sight for me since

I'm

> > an

> > > adult child of a bpd.

> > > My history is that two years ago I got married to a very

> > wonderfully

> > > healthy person. I thought I'd come to grips with a lot of my

past

> > > experiences on my own and through myriad therapists while in

high

> > > school. But not until I was genuinely in a healthy

relationship

> > where

> > > I care as much about my husband's welfare as my own did I

realize

> > how

> > > much was left unsettled from own childhood. The gist of it is

> that

> > I

> > > fell into a great depression I'd been avoiding for years 6

months

> > into

> > > our marriage and went to stay a week with my new sister and

> brother

> > in

> > > laws. She, my sister-in-law, is a psychiatrist and when i told

> her

> > a

> > > lot of what was ailing me, the never ending yo-yo effects of my

> > > mother, she gave me the book " I hate you, don't leave me " to

read.

>

> > It

> > > wasn't until I was 29 and had been through 7 therapists in my

> youth

> > > and early 20s that someone finally put a name on it. Reading

that

> > > book made me feel so comforted that what my mother suffers from

> has

> > a

> > > name and I wasn't imagining all the Jekle and Hyde symptoms she

> hid

> > > from the world and saved solely for my brother and I.

> > >

> > > I admit, part of me is still a little outraged at the medical

> > > profession even though it was my Doctor sister-in-law that

helped

> > me

> > > so much. I tried to kill myself when I was 17 and my brother

> > > attempted suicide as well when he was 18. All those therapists

> and

> > > all the time in counseling never once revealed that it was not

so

> > much

> > > my brother and my depression that were at the root of the

problem,

> > but

> > > rather my mother's own personality disorder that makes for a

> > terrible

> > > mother that drove us both to try and take our own lives.

Granted,

> > > some of the coping mechanisms I learned helped make it day by

day,

> > but

> > > I still think it's such a failure to my family that we were

> > diagnosed

> > > with the major problem and my mother slipped through the cracks

> and

> > > always will. It's sad and pathetic, but here I am trying to

learn

> > > more about this illness.

> > >

> > > For starters, I don't really care to go into too much more

detail

> > than

> > > what I've already shared. I could share horror story upon

horror

> > > story like the ones I've read. I don't think any of the horror

> > > stories matter nearly as much as the fact my brother and I

tried

> to

> > > take our own lives and so that is the bottom line for me right

> > > now...learning to make peace with my past. I don't hate my

mother

> > or

> > > my father and I don't want to make them out to be monsters.

They

> > are

> > > sick people but they make their own parents out as monsters and

> > > thereby never take responsibility for the fact they've got

choices

> > > over the rest of their lives...well not my dad. He died when I

> was

> > 8

> > > and in many ways I thank God he did die just because his family

is

> > the

> > > one with the major issues of BPD and after 11 years of my mom

> being

> > > married to him, she's very much a BPD also. His family,

however,

> is

> > > textbook and I've got two cousins who simultaneously discovered

> BPD

> > > when I did. It is a relief to know that they found it out on

> their

> > > own too considering the option is to repeat the cycles.

> > >

> > > I've started to come out my depression after starting therapy

last

> > > July and I plan on continuing therapy for a while to come just

> > because

> > > there is a never ending worry in the back on my mind that I

could

> > > possibly turn out to be as screwed up as my parents. The older

I

> > get,

> > > the more I realize this is impossible because of the patterns

I've

> > > created for my own destiny. Yet it wasn't until last year that

my

> > > limits were actually realized once and for all and my foot went

> > down.

> > > It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do telling my mom

that

> I

> > > no longer cared about all the past abuse she suffered, but

rather

> > > cared more about the fact she needed to own up to her own abuse

> > she'd

> > > dished out my brother and I for so many years. It was not so

much

> > a

> > > lack of compassion I gave my mom as it was for once in my life

> > giving

> > > myself the compassion and emotional integrity that she would

never

> > be

> > > able to give me. It's hard to learn self-esteem, valuing of

one's

> > own

> > > emotions, personal integrity when being raised by a BPD. The

key

> > thing

> > > that helped me in my conversation with her was to continually

over

> > > rider her justifications with statements of how I felt, to not

let

> > her

> > > pull me into sympathizing with her when my own emotional

> > experiences

> > > were and are just as legitimate as her's. It's impossible to

> argue

> > > feelings and so many people don't seem to understand that

they've

> > got

> > > a right to their feelings - I didn't for the longest time.

> > >

> > > I'm walking a very different pathway the those that were handed

to

> > me.

> > > Yet I find myself continually having to watch out for my

weakness

> > of

> > > being pulled back into those former games I'd play with my mom -

> > > rescuer, etc. I guess I'm just sad and I grieve for what I

went

> > > through and what everyone who lives with one of these people

has

> to

> > go

> > > through. I have no desire any longer to fix the problem - my

> > mom's,

> > > my psycho grandmother's, my dad's, my aunts or uncles or anyone

> > elses

> > > for that matter. I just want to be at peace for once with my

past

> > so

> > > that the new chapters will be very different and more

liberating

> > than

> > > what I've come from. And that's where I am for today and right

> > now.

> > > Thanks for letting me share.

Oh MY GOD! Is my Nada your Mom???? Mine also went through the whole

80's " tough love " thing. She still brings that out to examine in

some of her pontifications (sp??) about parenting (LOL). My

goodness, the whole idea of her implementing tough love was soooo

insane: gotta love someone unconditionally first don't yoU???

I get so irritated whenever that TL thing comes up: this therapy was

just made to be twisted by our nutsy nadas!

June 27, 2002

,

Astute observations. I'll have to remember that- 'tough love should

come with the implication that unconditional love took place first in

the childhood'. I like that framing of TL. I find it a load of crap

on most of those talk shows with boot camps and all that stuff. I

just use to scream at the idiot hosts for being so clueless as to the

real deal and then I realized I could just simply change the channel -

haha.

You know one of the best lines I learned about dealing with a BPD is

from a random conversation with a friend. It seems to me that the

BPDs are addicted to trauma cause they can't put a peace on their past

PTSDs, ya know. Well when someone starts telling me something that

just totally grosses me out or horrifies me or will lead me to

adopting their reality in negative ways, I just say " I'm sorry. I

don't want that as part of my reality " when the conversation starts

taking a turn for the worse- over dramatization of the negative stuff

in life. It's amazing how this boundary setting maneuver has worked

for me.

Speaking of TL and all that is assumed with the administering of it,

I've got a lot of religious freaks in the BPD side of my family and my

grandmother who's hard core always falls back on the 'honor thy mother

and father' commandment as her trump card for getting away with really

horrific amounts of pyschological abuse. I talked to a religious

figure a few years back about my inability to make peace with my past

and all the abuse of my mom and he told me point blank that I needed

to treat my mom just like anyone else in my life. That commandment

comes with the stipulation that the parents would act honorably in the

first place and when they don't, then they nullify the understood

relationship of nurturance that parents give children. I liked that

and your reframing reminded me of that conversation.

ThX

Kere

> Oh MY GOD! Is my Nada your Mom???? Mine also went through the whole

> 80's " tough love " thing. She still brings that out to examine in

> some of her pontifications (sp??) about parenting (LOL). My

> goodness, the whole idea of her implementing tough love was soooo

> insane: gotta love someone unconditionally first don't yoU???

>

> I get so irritated whenever that TL thing comes up: this therapy

was

> just made to be twisted by our nutsy nadas!

>

June 28, 2002

> ,

> Astute observations. I'll have to remember that- 'tough love

should

> come with the implication that unconditional love took place first

in

> the childhood'. I like that framing of TL. I find it a load of

crap

> on most of those talk shows with boot camps and all that stuff. I

> just use to scream at the idiot hosts for being so clueless as to

the

> real deal and then I realized I could just simply change the

channel -

> haha.

>

> You know one of the best lines I learned about dealing with a BPD

is

> from a random conversation with a friend. It seems to me that the

> BPDs are addicted to trauma cause they can't put a peace on their

past

> PTSDs, ya know. Well when someone starts telling me something that

> just totally grosses me out or horrifies me or will lead me to

> adopting their reality in negative ways, I just say " I'm sorry. I

> don't want that as part of my reality " when the conversation starts

> taking a turn for the worse- over dramatization of the negative

stuff

> in life. It's amazing how this boundary setting maneuver has worked

> for me.

>

> Speaking of TL and all that is assumed with the administering of

it,

> I've got a lot of religious freaks in the BPD side of my family and

my

> grandmother who's hard core always falls back on the 'honor thy

mother

> and father' commandment as her trump card for getting away with

really

> horrific amounts of pyschological abuse. I talked to a religious

> figure a few years back about my inability to make peace with my

past

> and all the abuse of my mom and he told me point blank that I

needed

> to treat my mom just like anyone else in my life. That commandment

> comes with the stipulation that the parents would act honorably in

the

> first place and when they don't, then they nullify the understood

> relationship of nurturance that parents give children. I liked

that

> and your reframing reminded me of that conversation.

> ThX

> Kere

> > Oh MY GOD! Is my Nada your Mom???? Mine also went through the

whole

> > 80's " tough love " thing. She still brings that out to examine in

> > some of her pontifications (sp??) about parenting (LOL). My

> > goodness, the whole idea of her implementing tough love was soooo

> > insane: gotta love someone unconditionally first don't yoU???

> >

> > I get so irritated whenever that TL thing comes up: this therapy

> was

> > just made to be twisted by our nutsy nadas!

> >

Whenever I hear " honor your mother and father, " I reply (and this is

biblical) with " parents do not vex your children. " Not exact, but

what bible quote is when taken out of context?

And, yes, I am writing this at 2am in the morning. One of the many

by-products of being a KO: fibromyalgia and insomnia go hand in

hand .

June 28, 2002

I talked to a religious

> figure a few years back about my inability to make peace with

my past

> and all the abuse of my mom and he told me point blank that I

needed

> to treat my mom just like anyone else in my life. That

commandment

> comes with the stipulation that the parents would act honorably

in the

> first place and when they don't, then they nullify the understood

> relationship of nurturance that parents give children.

thanks for this. My mother always acted as though her status

was higher than the mother of God.

I cannot even pray in a " normal " way. Deep down I've had a hard

time accepting the love of God because I never had the nurturing

relationship from my parents. I've had to make my own way and it

seems to me that God is intensely understanding. I've had some

" miracles " that seemed so custom made that they gave me hope

that God could really care about me.

I hate how nada and fada and FOO (nada's ) put a toxic twist on

religion.

When I look back honestly, I was such a good kid, I never

needed to be punished, my hazed sisters were equally as good,

but soo scared. In fact we were all good kids but we didn't get

any respect. We were objects.

I have three brothers in their late 38, 40, 44. No marriages. One

is an emotional recluse, one might be gay but we've never

known officially, one is a toxic abuser. I put this failure of

emotional stability on my parents plate. All have iffy employment

and are afraid on some level. Yet all worship nada.

If they could all have a healing marriage and the comfort of

having one special someone to love and be loved by

unconditionally. But with their deal with nada.....that's never going

to happen. they are all " married " to her on some emotional level,

she is the woman in their lives.

EEEEWWWWW..

kathleen

June 28, 2002

>

> Whenever I hear " honor your mother and father, " I reply (and

this is

> biblical) with " parents do not vex your children. " Not exact, but

> what bible quote is when taken out of context?

> And, yes, I am writing this at 2am in the morning. One of the

many

> by-products of being a KO: fibromyalgia and insomnia go

hand in

> hand .

>

OOhhh...fibro is so hard...insomnia too.......

I know that if I EVER treated my kids the way we were

treated...there is no way that I would ever expect them to love me

or want to come around me.

kathleen

June 29, 2002

C-

Yeah, I get insomnia sometimes too. It was much worse when I was

really depressed, but now I'm doing better. Do you know a lot of it

with woman can have to do with your monthly cycle? I've been reading

up on some things and I swear like clockwork, the last day of my PMS

and the first few of my fun visitor, I have really bad insomnia. It

helps me during that time to keep a nightlight on. But two weeks

later at the height of ovulation, it's just the opposite -no light.

It's been documented and I've found it kind of interesting to tell the

truth. Actually I need to hit the hay soon here too. Thanks for the

Biblical quote. I'll have to remember that one too. You've got as

much trivia and quotable sayings as my husband and I. I like that

Kind of funny.

-K

> > ,

> > Astute observations. I'll have to remember that- 'tough love

> should

> > come with the implication that unconditional love took place first

> in

> > the childhood'. I like that framing of TL. I find it a load of

> crap

> > on most of those talk shows with boot camps and all that stuff. I

> > just use to scream at the idiot hosts for being so clueless as to

> the

> > real deal and then I realized I could just simply change the

> channel -

> > haha.

> >

> > You know one of the best lines I learned about dealing with a BPD

> is

> > from a random conversation with a friend. It seems to me that the

> > BPDs are addicted to trauma cause they can't put a peace on their

> past

> > PTSDs, ya know. Well when someone starts telling me something

that

> > just totally grosses me out or horrifies me or will lead me to

> > adopting their reality in negative ways, I just say " I'm sorry. I

> > don't want that as part of my reality " when the conversation

starts

> > taking a turn for the worse- over dramatization of the negative

> stuff

> > in life. It's amazing how this boundary setting maneuver has

worked

> > for me.

> >

> > Speaking of TL and all that is assumed with the administering of

> it,

> > I've got a lot of religious freaks in the BPD side of my family

and

> my

> > grandmother who's hard core always falls back on the 'honor thy

> mother

> > and father' commandment as her trump card for getting away with

> really

> > horrific amounts of pyschological abuse. I talked to a religious

> > figure a few years back about my inability to make peace with my

> past

> > and all the abuse of my mom and he told me point blank that I

> needed

> > to treat my mom just like anyone else in my life. That

commandment

> > comes with the stipulation that the parents would act honorably in

> the

> > first place and when they don't, then they nullify the understood

> > relationship of nurturance that parents give children. I liked

> that

> > and your reframing reminded me of that conversation.

> > ThX

> > Kere

> > > Oh MY GOD! Is my Nada your Mom???? Mine also went through the

> whole

> > > 80's " tough love " thing. She still brings that out to examine

in

> > > some of her pontifications (sp??) about parenting (LOL). My

> > > goodness, the whole idea of her implementing tough love was

soooo

> > > insane: gotta love someone unconditionally first don't yoU???

> > >

> > > I get so irritated whenever that TL thing comes up: this

therapy

> > was

> > > just made to be twisted by our nutsy nadas!

> > >

>

> Whenever I hear " honor your mother and father, " I reply (and this is

> biblical) with " parents do not vex your children. " Not exact, but

> what bible quote is when taken out of context?

> And, yes, I am writing this at 2am in the morning. One of the many

> by-products of being a KO: fibromyalgia and insomnia go hand in

> hand .

>

June 29, 2002

> I talked to a religious

> > figure a few years back about my inability to make peace with

> my past

> > and all the abuse of my mom and he told me point blank that I

> needed

> > to treat my mom just like anyone else in my life. That

> commandment

> > comes with the stipulation that the parents would act honorably

> in the

> > first place and when they don't, then they nullify the understood

> > relationship of nurturance that parents give children.

>

> thanks for this. My mother always acted as though her status

> was higher than the mother of God.

>

> I cannot even pray in a " normal " way. Deep down I've had a hard

> time accepting the love of God because I never had the nurturing

> relationship from my parents. I've had to make my own way and it

> seems to me that God is intensely understanding. I've had some

> " miracles " that seemed so custom made that they gave me hope

> that God could really care about me.

>

> I hate how nada and fada and FOO (nada's ) put a toxic twist on

> religion.

>

> When I look back honestly, I was such a good kid, I never

> needed to be punished, my hazed sisters were equally as good,

> but soo scared. In fact we were all good kids but we didn't get

> any respect. We were objects.

>

> I have three brothers in their late 38, 40, 44. No marriages. One

> is an emotional recluse, one might be gay but we've never

> known officially, one is a toxic abuser. I put this failure of

> emotional stability on my parents plate. All have iffy employment

> and are afraid on some level. Yet all worship nada.

>

> If they could all have a healing marriage and the comfort of

> having one special someone to love and be loved by

> unconditionally. But with their deal with nada.....that's never

going

> to happen. they are all " married " to her on some emotional level,

> she is the woman in their lives.

>

> EEEEWWWWW..

>

> kathleen

Kathleen,

Is there truly a normal way to pray? There are actually about 5 or 6

different ways to pray. I think whatever works for a person works for

a person. Your relationship with your God/gods/whatever is your own

business and I don't think anyone has the right to tell you how you

should and shouldn't pray. Whatever works and in my opinion, if

someone is trying to get intouch with their spirituality, my hats off

to them just b/c the world is so in need of it. I've met more

spiritual people in normal daily living than I ever did growing up in

a church. I've come full circle at this point, but still continue to

support my friends with wherever they are in their own journey and I

admit even though I go to church on a regular basis, my view of God

seems vastly different than most Christians I've met. C'est la vie.

Life is what we make it, so are relationships, huh?

I think with the narcassistic BPD they do somewhat push the edge of

the envelope if they're Christians or Jews with breaking the first

commandment of putting no other gods before the Big Guy. I've ssen my

zealot grandmother whose BPD has come between her children and their

spouses countless times. It flies in the face of 'what God's joined

let no one separate.' The older I get, the more blasphemous I see that

kind of behavior.

What happened or happens in your family is not at all unlike in my

family and it's not the Judeo-Christian theologies at all, but rather

Greek Mythology. I believe it's Oedipus Rex syndrome as well as in

reverse with the daughters who all get pulled into 'worshipping' their

mothers...or fathers. Distance, time, therapy and a lot of work on

our parts give much clarity to this concept. Hence I live 18 hours

away from my mom and 12 hours away from my grandparents. I've no

desire to live close to them and never will again and I do hope that

if I ever have children, they'll feel free enough to move away to

where ever their destiny leads them too w/o the guilt that's been the

monkey on the back of my family.

If you experience those little miracles, I say follow them as their

your one true link to your karmic path- unique for you and you alone.

I don't know if it's b/c my dad died in childhood or just b/c I was

born under a lucky star, but somehow or another I've managed to follow

what feels right inside more often than not. Truly there have been

times I've felt I've walked out of buildings before they were about to

fall. Well heck, I didn't get on a plane in the fall of 2000 just b/c

I knew it was going to crash (it didn't by the way). In addition to

my depression, I had high anxiety about flying, which I'd never had.

And I was scheduled to go to NY in August of 2001 and it got pushed

back to Oct (cancelled that). My hubby suggested the week after Labor

Day, but that didn't seem good to me and I felt really depressed all

of August and had lots of nightmares. In many ways on subtle levels,

I had premonitions of 9-11. It goes with the territory of me

fostering those connections to the infinite- call it God or whatever

you want. I just know that when I get those feelings, there's no

amount of logic anyone can hand me that will pacify me. It use to

freak my friends and husband out (and he still gets freaked out like

when I said two days before on died that he was already

dead. My hubby couldn't talk about it for two days), but most of my

close friends just come to accept it and it's not intrusive into their

own realms just b/c I've learned to differentiate more between me and

them the older I get.

I think in large part b/c I had such a screwed up childhood and was

lied to so often and always felt it internally as really wrong, I

found a different way to cope- my instincts. All during my 20's I

experimented more and more with going with my gut feelings and still

struggle with it as it's illogical, but typically I end up being right

about a situation. If it feels bad, it probably is bad and so I know

better when to walk and when to run.

And to be totally honest with you, most of what I've learned goes back

to reading 'The Tao of Pooh " and really believing in Taoism as my own

way in life- not a religion as much as a way of me dealing with life.

Everyone has a unique and very different path in life. Only you know

where you need to go- no gurus out there, no mentors, no leaders to

fully walk the path that you have to walk- friends and others no doubt

help show the path, yet I don't believe at the end of the day anyone

can live a person's life except them. In that regards, we're all in

the same boat.

I say become comfortable with those homemade miracles and follow that

course in life so that other miracles continue to happen, rather than

the continual trauma of a BPD. I don't think God's love is anything

remotely like human love and so I don't usually experience it in that

same fashion even though it enhances my other relationships. It's

more infinite than the stars and numerous than the waves of the ocean.

Irregarless of who I am or what I do, it continues on and on in ways

i'll never fully comprehend. And it's more than the unconditional

love we can contemplate with the mind, in my opinion. " God Is Love "

pure and simple - biblical quote there. And so all the things I

learned about Him as some sort of angry paternal figure sitting in

judgement constantly on mankind was something I had to unlearn. But I

do understand where you are coming from with not learning nurturance

adn therefore being unable to accept it from God. Yet the fact that

you are here and trying to get you healthier is a manifestation of

that love and that's the best anyone can do. I think He understands

this at the end of the day. If not, I'm erroneously off the mark and

wish to continue with my dellusions for the rest of my life - lol.

Take care,

Kere

June 29, 2002

---

>

> I say become comfortable with those homemade miracles and follow

that

> course in life so that other miracles continue to happen, rather

than

> the continual trauma of a BPD.

thanks so much for that insight....the whole post was very

enlightening and nurturing.

I used to have intense " ESP " and I used to follow it more, but became

cynical after my sister died. I had an " enough is enough " attitude.

I will make it a point to look around in gratitude and see how the

miracles are always there.

kathleen

June 29, 2002

Kathleen, that's probably the biggest thing I've learned through all

this BPD crap [and it took 50+ years to finally GET it] ...........

appreciation for all the good stuff in my life, and noticing all the

little miracles around me that were never big enough to see before. I

remember being taught in Catholic school to " count my blessings " . Why?

What's the point? Now I understand. When we've been to hell and back

(healed), life takes on a whole new meaning. There's joy in the quiet

essence of the trees in my yard, there's joy in the sun beaming through

my morning windows, there's joy in the cool chill of the night, there's

joy in feeling the wind against my cheeks, there's joy in my wonderful

new dog Lucky who was rescued from the pound. I named him Lucky because

I'm so lucky to have him, and he's so lucky to have life!

SmileS

Carol

Kathleen wrote:

> I will make it a point to look around in gratitude and see how the

> miracles are always there.

June 29, 2002

Carol,

That's a really cool story about your dog. I've found so much about

love from my cats, plants and fish (sounds funny with fish, but

amazingly they always seem to stare at me when I'm sitting next to

them. I use to have one fish that would thunk the tank to get my

attention if I was late in feeding- totally tripped me out). When I

got my cat unexpectedly from Petsmart one random day, I was horrified

by the notion that this little creature was going to rely on me only

for the rest of it's life...kind of like normal people get terrified

by the notion of having kids (BPDs seem to believe that having

children will somehow make them normal- or at least that's what I've

heard in comparing notes). I was so amazed at how I never looked back

on my decision to adopt this cat and how capable of love it is. It

talks all the time and sleeps next to me like a dog and will jump up

in the middle of the night if she hears a strange noise. BEing able

to love and nurture my cat has even given me the courage to step into

marriagehood and trust my own inner resources to continue to hold onto

to the miracles. I'm starting to sound like Bill Murray's character

at the end of " Scrooged " ... " When you get that miracle, hold on to it

and make it happen every day and Christmas can be everyday. You

gotta make it happen. Just keep believing in Christmas. Keep

believing in the miracles. " - lol.

Kere

> > I will make it a point to look around in gratitude and see how the

> > miracles are always there.

June 29, 2002

Thank YOU, Kere! Plants and fish are such wonderful creatures, and so

soulful. I have a small 10-gallon tank with a few tetras, angels and

cory catfish, and what joy they are!

I'm the same way with commitments to pets..........for life, good with

the bad. With a little work, the minuses turn into pluses. I think

that's why my ordeal with mother was so devastating. The minuses didn't

turn into pluses, no matter what I did. The lesson was difficult and

painful, yet so simple: stop beating my head against the wall, because

it felt so good when I stopped.

Growing up, I never dreamed about having kids. Oh sure, I knew I'd end

up having some, but it wasn't anything I felt big urges for. When I got

pregnant with my first born, I was less than ecstatic, because I somehow

knew it would be a huge commitment. Being a military wife, there was no

family support nearby, so the responsibility was an awesome

24-7-52-365. And I spent a lot of time alone while hubby was overseas

too. I regret none of it!

Miracles happen when we're not looking, and they're very easy to miss!

Smiles!

Carol

Kere wrote:

> That's a really cool story about your dog. I've found so much about

> love from my cats, plants and fish (sounds funny with fish, but

> amazingly they always seem to stare at me when I'm sitting next to

> them. I use to have one fish that would thunk the tank to get my

> attention if I was late in feeding- totally tripped me out). When I

> got my cat unexpectedly from Petsmart one random day, I was horrified

> by the notion that this little creature was going to rely on me only

> for the rest of it's life...kind of like normal people get terrified

> by the notion of having kids (BPDs seem to believe that having

> children will somehow make them normal- or at least that's what I've

> heard in comparing notes). I was so amazed at how I never looked back

> on my decision to adopt this cat and how capable of love it is. It

> talks all the time and sleeps next to me like a dog and will jump up

> in the middle of the night if she hears a strange noise. BEing able

> to love and nurture my cat has even given me the courage to step into

> marriagehood and trust my own inner resources to continue to hold onto

> to the miracles. I'm starting to sound like Bill Murray's character

> at the end of " Scrooged " ... " When you get that miracle, hold on to it

> and make it happen every day and Christmas can be everyday. You

> gotta make it happen. Just keep believing in Christmas. Keep

> believing in the miracles. " - lol.

> Kere

Carol M wrote:

> Kathleen, that's probably the biggest thing I've learned through

> all this BPD crap [and it took 50+ years to finally GET

> it]........... appreciation for all the good stuff in my life, and

> noticing all the little miracles around me that were never big

> enough to see before. I remember being taught in Catholic school

> to " count my blessings " . Why? What's the point? Now I understand.

> When we've been to hell and back (healed), life takes on a whole new

> meaning. There's joy in the quiet essence of the trees in my yard,

> there's joy in the sun beaming through my morning windows, there's

> joy in the cool chill of the night, there's joy in feeling the wind

> against my cheeks, there's joy in my wonderful new dog Lucky who was

> rescued from the pound. I named him Lucky because I'm so lucky to

> have him, and he's so lucky to have life!

June 30, 2002

Beautifully said Carol. I think I've tried to always live witht he

mantra of 'no regrets' because if I regret, then I've not learned and

so I might have a couple of tiny ones, but not where relationships are

concerned. Miracles do lie everywhere, like you said, and the

blessing is to be able, IMHO, to turn all the negative into something

positive and leave the rest behind b/c it wasn't mine to begin with.

Blessings to you too,

Kere

> > Kathleen, that's probably the biggest thing I've learned through

> > all this BPD crap [and it took 50+ years to finally GET

> > it]........... appreciation for all the good stuff in my life, and

> > noticing all the little miracles around me that were never big

> > enough to see before. I remember being taught in Catholic school

> > to " count my blessings " . Why? What's the point? Now I

understand.

> > When we've been to hell and back (healed), life takes on a whole

new

> > meaning. There's joy in the quiet essence of the trees in my

yard,

> > there's joy in the sun beaming through my morning windows, there's

> > joy in the cool chill of the night, there's joy in feeling the

wind

> > against my cheeks, there's joy in my wonderful new dog Lucky who

was

> > rescued from the pound. I named him Lucky because I'm so lucky to

> > have him, and he's so lucky to have life!

June 30, 2002

Yes, Kere, I totally agree. I've hesitated to say on the list that I

don't regret my ordeal with mother, but I don't. A mere three years

ago, I was sinking in the quicksand, wailing, " Why me? What did I ever

do to deserve all THIS? " I saw no way out, short of her death. And

THEN, " outsiders " forever advised me to made amends at all costs,

because I'd live to regret it, if I didn't. You know, the typical guilt

trip stuff like, she's your mother, she's very old, she needs you, blah

blah blah.

Little did I know then, that in three years, I'd be whistling dixie. It

literally brought me to my knees and strengthened me spiritually in ways

that never could have happened otherwise. Once we've crawled through

the depths of hell, we see normal ordinary life as a blessing.

Looking back, I think my life as a military wife was good training for

what lay ahead. During those years, I didn't focus on the unpleasant

stuff, because we'd soon be moving to a new location where everything

would be different. It was this very coping skill that threw me for

such a loop with mother years later, because try as I did, there was no

way to get away from mother's yucky stuff, and I felt so stuck. When I

got pushed to the wall three years ago, and Mt. St. Helens blew, that's

when I got away, except I didn't realize it then. Things got way worse,

before they started to get better. That's when I was crawling alone

through the dark tunnel, with no light in sight, and no idea where I was

crawling to, other then to more hell. I didn't know about BPD, this

mail list, or other KOs.

All that's in the past. Now I wear my green iridescent See-Through Nada

Goggles and my orange and purple polka dotted Nada-proof Space Suit.

I'm untouchable now!!!!! Whoo-eeeeeeee!!!!!!

SmileS!

Carol

Kere wrote:

> I think I've tried to always live with the mantra of 'no regrets'

> because if I regret, then I've not learned and so I might have a

> couple of tiny ones, but not where relationships are concerned.

> ... the blessing is to be able, IMHO, to turn all the negative

> into something positive and leave the rest behind b/c it wasn't

> mine to begin with.

July 1, 2002

Carol,

LOL- orange and purple polka dotted space suit...that's a great one.

It reminds me of this society of women my two great aunts helped to

form called the red hat society. It's based on the this poem with

wearing a red hat and a purple so that they don't match...but they're

old enough to do it and be happy. So all these little old ladies,

prerequesite of being over 70, wear red hats and something purple and

go out on the town, about 30 of them. They're a hoot.

I know what you mean with the 'their old and will die soon' guilt

trip. I'm at the point where 20 some odd years later, I'm like " go

ahead and die already " - lol. Sounds nasty, but truly I'm no longer

inspired out of guilt.

I heard this one comedian once say how the nice grandma always seems

to die younger and the mean old nasty grandma everyone can't stand

somehow lives to be 102. I almost busted a gut when I heard that one

since my nice grandma died 5 years ago and the BPD one is a

greatgrandma of 9 or 10 and shows no signs of kicking the bucket any

time soon. I'm so bad I know, but it's true. I think it has more to

do with unresolved karma.

I don't regret my ordeals either, but can't say I'm at the same place

of understanding that you are. Heck, I only started online last week

with all this and am thoroughly astounding by how many of us KOs there

are out here. I'm working on things and that's the best anyone can

do. I know there's myriad lessons and I know I've learned a lot of

them, but the more I find out about BPD, the more determined I am to

make people, normal people, wake up. I'm really upset about the

stigma and the misdiagnosis and even the therapists who refuse to deal

with the issues and therefore are further behind than us with dealing

with BPD. I'm gonna write Oprah sometime soon! She's always been an

advocate of the unheard. Whatyathink about that one?

*hugs*

Kere

> > I think I've tried to always live with the mantra of 'no regrets'

> > because if I regret, then I've not learned and so I might have a

> > couple of tiny ones, but not where relationships are concerned.

>

> > ... the blessing is to be able, IMHO, to turn all the negative

> > into something positive and leave the rest behind b/c it wasn't

> > mine to begin with.

July 2, 2002

See my comments inserted below........

Kere wrote:

> I know what you mean with the 'their old and will die soon' guilt

> trip. I'm at the point where 20 some odd years later, I'm like " go

> ahead and die already " - lol. Sounds nasty, but truly I'm no longer

> inspired out of guilt.

Yes, I felt the same way too. I really wanted her to die, because it

was the only way out. I was willing to experience the guilt, because it

couldn't be any worse than dealing with her alive.

> I heard this one comedian once say how the nice grandma always seems

> to die younger and the mean old nasty grandma everyone can't stand

> somehow lives to be 102. I almost busted a gut when I heard that one

> since my nice grandma died 5 years ago and the BPD one is a

> greatgrandma of 9 or 10 and shows no signs of kicking the bucket any

> time soon. I'm so bad I know, but it's true. I think it has more to

> do with unresolved karma.

Yup! I wondered the same thing too. And I agree, it's a karmic issue.

> I don't regret my ordeals either, but can't say I'm at the same place

> of understanding that you are.

I'm still working on it. Just a month or so ago, I was thrown off

balance when mother wrote me a letter, after three years of no direct

contact. I never learned to set boundaries, because our schism was

sudden and abrupt. I got used to the separation, and I had come to

appreciate it. So, when her letter arrived, I almost got hoovered in,

until many on the list nudged me back to reality! I'm still learning!

I think I'm going to be learning for the rest of my life.

> Heck, I only started online last week

> with all this and am thoroughly astounding by how many of us KOs there

> are out here.

While we wouldn't wish KOship on anyone, it's heartwarming to know we're

not alone anymore.

> I'm working on things and that's the best anyone can

> do.

Absolutely.

> I know there's myriad lessons and I know I've learned a lot of

> them, but the more I find out about BPD, the more determined I am to

> make people, normal people, wake up.

Yes, I agree. I don't know what the answer is. It's a tough nut to

crack.

> I'm really upset about the stigma and the misdiagnosis and even the

> therapists who refuse to deal with the issues and therefore are

> further behind than us with dealing with BPD.

Me too!

> I'm gonna write Oprah sometime soon! She's always been an

> advocate of the unheard. Whatyathink about that one?

You go, girl!

Smiles!

Carol

Carol M wrote:

> Yes, Kere, I totally agree. I've hesitated to say on the list that

> I don't regret my ordeal with mother, but I don't. A mere three

> years ago, I was sinking in the quicksand, wailing, " Why me? What

> did I ever do to deserve all THIS? " I saw no way out, short of her

> death. And THEN, " outsiders " forever advised me to made amends at

> all costs, because I'd live to regret it, if I didn't. You know,

> the typical guilt trip stuff like, she's your mother, she's very old,

> she needs you, blah blah blah.

>

> Little did I know then, that in three years, I'd be whistling dixie.

> It literally brought me to my knees and strengthened me spiritually

> in ways that never could have happened otherwise. Once we've

> crawled through the depths of hell, we see normal ordinary life as

> a blessing.

>

> Looking back, I think my life as a military wife was good training

> for what lay ahead. During those years, I didn't focus on the

> unpleasant stuff, because we'd soon be moving to a new location

> where everything would be different. It was this very coping skill

> that threw me for such a loop with mother years later, because try

> as I did, there was no way to get away from mother's yucky stuff,

> and I felt so stuck. When I got pushed to the wall three years

> ago, and Mt. St. Helens blew, that's when I got away, except I

> didn't realize it then. Things got way worse, before they started

> to get better. That's when I was crawling alone through the dark

> tunnel, with no light in sight, and no idea where I was crawling

> to, other then to more hell. I didn't know about BPD, this mail

> list, or other KOs.

>

> All that's in the past. Now I wear my green iridescent See-Through

> Nada Goggles and my orange and purple polka dotted Nada-proof Space

> Suit.

> I'm untouchable now!!!!! Whoo-eeeeeeee!!!!!!

> Kere wrote:

> I think I've tried to always live with the mantra of 'no regrets'

> because if I regret, then I've not learned and so I might have a

> couple of tiny ones, but not where relationships are concerned.

>

> ... the blessing is to be able, IMHO, to turn all the negative

> into something positive and leave the rest behind b/c it wasn't

> mine to begin with.

July 2, 2002

> > I think I've tried to always live with the mantra of 'no regrets'

> > because if I regret, then I've not learned and so I might have a

> > couple of tiny ones, but not where relationships are concerned.

> >

> > ... the blessing is to be able, IMHO, to turn all the negative

> > into something positive and leave the rest behind b/c it wasn't

> > mine to begin with.

I used to wish she'd die all the time. I don't anymore, but I do

know that life could have been so much nicer if she had kicked the

bucket when I was a young child. Now it doesn't matter anymore bc

she hasn't got control over me anymore.

July 2, 2002

My nada used to always threaten suicide. I used to wish she would go ahead

and do it so I wouldn't live with that over my head anymore and also I just

wanted some peace. I knew I would feel guilt, but I felt that would be

easier to handle than all the chaos.

On my good days, I don't regret my ordeal. When I look at myself and assess

my strengths and weaknesses, I have many strengths that I are a direct

result of being a KO. Strengths that my coworkers and friends don't have.

But it's really hard when I'm dealing with my fleas and their effect on my

life.

Re: Re: lonewolf - depression