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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:40:02 -0500, Vivian Kooken <vslk@...> wrote:

> Fern,

>

> Thank you for posting. Having just heard a missionary speak at my church

> last night and belonging to a church that participates in missions, I can

> second every thing you have said. From what I understand, the goal of most

> missions is to spread the word of God, especially to people that have not

> yet had a chance to hear it. It is up to those people to accept it or not.

> Religion is not forced on anyone. And yes, missionaries spend much of their

> time on humanitiarian type projects as you mentioned.

>

> It is so disappointing, yet so very common, to hear otherwise intelligent

> people talking about aspects of religion they know very little about with

> such blanket statements, and yes, STEREOTYPES. In any other modern day

> conversation pertaining to any group of people *other* than Christians,

> these statements would be labeled as prejudice. How sad it is very seldom

> described as it really is.

> Vivian

Thanks, Vivian. I do find it amazing, also. The stereotypes are

repeated over and over. And the sad thing is that most of the people

who keep repeating them aren't really interested in the truth, but

rather in giving Christianity a bad name. They sacrifice their

integrity in order to perpetuate myths that hurt the name of

Christianity. And to them that justifies the lies. So-called morality

has a whole new code of conduct than what we've known in the past. But

while Christianity will never be destroyed, the people who try to

destroy it will always go down in defeat.

Fern

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Posted
Posted

Whether you see it or not Christianity has destroyed many religions. You see

it from the inside. You hear all the sermons about how abused Christians

are. " Poor downtrodden Christians. "

I have seen it from both sides of the fence and I will never go back to

Christianity.

Emma Goldman said it far better than I can.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/failureofchristianity.

html

Judith Alta

Pagan and Proud of It!

-----Original Message-----

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:40:02 -0500, Vivian Kooken <vslk@...>

wrote:

> Fern,

>

> Thank you for posting. Having just heard a missionary speak at my church

> last night and belonging to a church that participates in missions, I can

> second every thing you have said. From what I understand, the goal of

most

> missions is to spread the word of God, especially to people that have not

> yet had a chance to hear it. It is up to those people to accept it or

not.

> Religion is not forced on anyone. And yes, missionaries spend much of

their

> time on humanitiarian type projects as you mentioned.

>

> It is so disappointing, yet so very common, to hear otherwise intelligent

> people talking about aspects of religion they know very little about with

> such blanket statements, and yes, STEREOTYPES. In any other modern day

> conversation pertaining to any group of people *other* than Christians,

> these statements would be labeled as prejudice. How sad it is very seldom

> described as it really is.

> Vivian

Thanks, Vivian. I do find it amazing, also. The stereotypes are

repeated over and over. And the sad thing is that most of the people

who keep repeating them aren't really interested in the truth, but

rather in giving Christianity a bad name. They sacrifice their

integrity in order to perpetuate myths that hurt the name of

Christianity. And to them that justifies the lies. So-called morality

has a whole new code of conduct than what we've known in the past. But

while Christianity will never be destroyed, the people who try to

destroy it will always go down in defeat.

Fern

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Posted
Posted

>Thanks, Vivian. I do find it amazing, also. The stereotypes are

>repeated over and over. And the sad thing is that most of the people

>who keep repeating them aren't really interested in the truth, but

>rather in giving Christianity a bad name. They sacrifice their

>integrity in order to perpetuate myths that hurt the name of

>Christianity. And to them that justifies the lies. So-called morality

>has a whole new code of conduct than what we've known in the past. But

>while Christianity will never be destroyed, the people who try to

>destroy it will always go down in defeat.

>

>Fern

>

Missionaries do fine work. I support the mission in Northern Malawi

that is affiliated with my church. I believe the work of CRS and other

relief and humanitarian agencies is vital to helping disaster victims

and others displaced for various reasons.

When I was nitpicking with is was a historical matter that

civilization did not help the Eskimos, according to Dr. Price.

Unfortunately, there is a history of abuse by missionaries of the

distant past. For instance, when the Spanish conquered the Americas,

there is evidence of abuse by the Roman Catholic clergy to the

indigenous people. That is not happening to day I don't think, however,

there is sexual abuse in the Catholic Church , but that is entirely a

different matter. I for one, am not intending to perpetuate outdated

stereotypes.

Deanna

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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:54:55 -0500, Judith Alta <jaltak@...> wrote:

> Whether you see it or not Christianity has destroyed many religions.

Nothing can destroy a religion if it is a true religion. Christians

have been tortured, killed, persecuted in many ways, and yet in places

where this is happening, even today, Christianity spreads like

wildfire. Religion is a matter of the heart only, and people choose

the religion they can believe in and live by. If people choose

Christianity over other religions to the point that other religions

die out from lack of followers, it seems apparent that something rings

true to those people about Christianity that didn't ring true about

the other religions.

People don't like to believe this, and so they make up stories about

Christians forcing Christianity on other people. But that's simply not

possible. The very nature of Christianity is that God offers His gift

of salvation to those who freely choose to accept it. It's not forced

on anyone. If someone chooses not to accept it, as you have, no one is

going to force it on you because they can't. God made us to be

creatures of free choice, which is a beautiful thing. I could say to

you now, " I demand that you be a Christian, " and it would accomplish

absolutely nothing because you have chosen not to.

> I have seen it from both sides of the fence and I will never go back to

> Christianity.

And that is certainly your choice. I believe you are wrong in doing

so, just as you believe I am wrong for choosing to be a Christian. But

I certainly won't force you to be a Christian. Even if I wanted to

force it on you, it's impossible to do so!

Fern

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-----Original Message-----

[snip]

> I have seen it from both sides of the fence and I will never go back to

> Christianity.

And that is certainly your choice. I believe you are wrong in doing

so, just as you believe I am wrong for choosing to be a Christian. But

I certainly won't force you to be a Christian. Even if I wanted to

force it on you, it's impossible to do so!

Fern

==========================================

[JA] Please copy and post where I ever said that I believe that you are

wrong in your choice of religion. You are the one who says I am wrong in my

choice of religion.

I couldn't care less what your religion is as long as you don't try to push

it on me. And, by your comment, " And that is certainly your choice. I

believe you are wrong in doing so. . . " you ARE trying to push it on me.

My major objection to Christianity is the lengths to which it will go to get

others to believe their way.

You seem to believe that in today's world Christians do not force their ways

onto others. I beg to differ with you.

If you live in the USA you see it on the news almost every day. Crying

because the " Bible is not being followed. "

Crying because children in school are not forced to say prayers they do not

believe in.

Crying because there are people who want to remove the words " under God "

from the pledge of allegiance. Words that should never have been put there

in the first place.

Christians are crying and saying that founding fathers were Christian and

did not want " separation of church and state " as we try to practice it. The

founding fathers knew exactly what they were doing. Now we have to fight

like mad to keep the separation of church and state or the Christians will

wrest it from us and mandate a Bible-based religion for everyone in this

country.

Christians believe that all people who do not believe their version of " The

ONE True Way, " and that includes other Christian denominations, are to be

pitied.

Religion was created by humans, for humans. And that includes ALL religion.

From the most primitive pagans to modern versions of Christianity.

Judith Alta

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Posted
Posted

Sorry for the top-post.

I read this by accident, I've been deleting this thread without reading but

missed this one.

Hear hear, Judith. *applause*

At 12:27 PM 12/13/04 -0500, you wrote:

>[JA] Please copy and post where I ever said that I believe that you are

>wrong in your choice of religion. You are the one who says I am wrong in my

>choice of religion.

>

>I couldn't care less what your religion is as long as you don't try to push

>it on me. And, by your comment, " And that is certainly your choice. I

>believe you are wrong in doing so. . . " you ARE trying to push it on me.

>

>My major objection to Christianity is the lengths to which it will go to get

>others to believe their way.

>

>You seem to believe that in today's world Christians do not force their ways

>onto others. I beg to differ with you.

>

>If you live in the USA you see it on the news almost every day. Crying

>because the " Bible is not being followed. "

>

>Crying because children in school are not forced to say prayers they do not

>believe in.

>

>Crying because there are people who want to remove the words " under God "

>from the pledge of allegiance. Words that should never have been put there

>in the first place.

>

>Christians are crying and saying that founding fathers were Christian and

>did not want " separation of church and state " as we try to practice it. The

>founding fathers knew exactly what they were doing. Now we have to fight

>like mad to keep the separation of church and state or the Christians will

>wrest it from us and mandate a Bible-based religion for everyone in this

>country.

>

>Christians believe that all people who do not believe their version of " The

>ONE True Way, " and that includes other Christian denominations, are to be

>pitied.

>

> Religion was created by humans, for humans. And that includes ALL religion.

>From the most primitive pagans to modern versions of Christianity.

>

>Judith Alta

>

>

>

>

>

>

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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:27:52 -0500, Judith Alta <jaltak@...> wrote:

> -----Original Message-----

> [JA] Please copy and post where I ever said that I believe that you are

> wrong in your choice of religion. You are the one who says I am wrong in my

> choice of religion.

I said that I *believe* you are wrong. I am stating my belief, and

that is a wonderful right we have in this country. My apologies if you

felt I was putting words in your mouth. It seemed evident to me that

you think I am wrong also. But I was wrong to say that you believe

that without your actually having said it.

> I couldn't care less what your religion is as long as you don't try to push

> it on me. And, by your comment, " And that is certainly your choice. I

> believe you are wrong in doing so. . . " you ARE trying to push it on me.

We'll have to differ here in our conclusions about what I was trying

to do. Again, I was stating my belief, which I am free to do in this

country. I'm sorry you took that to mean that I was trying to push it

onto you.

> My major objection to Christianity is the lengths to which it will go to get

> others to believe their way.

And that is your right to object to it. I don't agree with every way

Christians have used to spread the gospel, either.

> You seem to believe that in today's world Christians do not force their ways

> onto others. I beg to differ with you.

Again, that is your right, and I won't disagree that some Christians

have *tried* to force Christianity onto others. However, my point was

that no matter how hard they may try, it's impossible.

> Christians are crying and saying that founding fathers were Christian and

> did not want " separation of church and state " as we try to practice it. The

> founding fathers knew exactly what they were doing. Now we have to fight

> like mad to keep the separation of church and state or the Christians will

> wrest it from us and mandate a Bible-based religion for everyone in this

> country.

I don't know of anyone who is trying to mandate a Bible-based religion

for everyone in this country. I for one do not want that. I want this

country to remain a place where people can freely choose whatever

religion they believe is the right one.

> Christians believe that all people who do not believe their version of " The

> ONE True Way, " and that includes other Christian denominations, are to be

> pitied.

I accept many Christian denominations as being true, though some of

our practices may differ, but I don't pity them. I do freely admit

that I pity those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their personal

Saiviour and Lord, just as I pity those who are blindly practicing

unhealthy eating and medical practices. I know the consequences of

both.

> Religion was created by humans, for humans. And that includes ALL religion.

> From the most primitive pagans to modern versions of Christianity.

I respect your right to believe that and say that, without thinking

you are trying to force your beliefs on me. I also reserve my right to

disagree with you.

Fern

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" I accept many Christian denominations as being true, though some of

our practices may differ, but I don't pity them. I do freely admit

that I pity those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their personal

Saiviour and Lord, just as I pity those who are blindly practicing

unhealthy eating and medical practices. I know the consequences of

both. "

And I pity anyone who could write something like that.

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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:20:10 +0000, implode7@...

<implode7@...> wrote:

> " I accept many Christian denominations as being true, though some of

> our practices may differ, but I don't pity them. I do freely admit

> that I pity those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their personal

> Saiviour and Lord, just as I pity those who are blindly practicing

> unhealthy eating and medical practices. I know the consequences of

> both. "

>

> And I pity anyone who could write something like that.

:) And I respect your right to believe that I need to be pitied.

Fern

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Little consolation when I am consumed by hellfire.

>

> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:20:10 +0000, implode7@...

> <implode7@...> wrote:

> > " I accept many Christian denominations as being true, though some of

> > our practices may differ, but I don't pity them. I do freely admit

> > that I pity those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their personal

> > Saiviour and Lord, just as I pity those who are blindly practicing

> > unhealthy eating and medical practices. I know the consequences of

> > both. "

> >

> > And I pity anyone who could write something like that.

>

> :) And I respect your right to believe that I need to be pitied.

>

> Fern

>

>

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Posted

F. Jewett wrote:

>Sorry for the top-post.

>

>I read this by accident, I've been deleting this thread without reading but

>missed this one.

>

>Hear hear, Judith. *applause*

>

[JA] Religion was created by humans, for humans. And that includes ALL religion.

[Deanna] I missed this statement too. I agree with your statement above, and

also the part about constitutional issues, etc. Folks, religion, marriage,

burial of the dead are all universal characteristics of humans. That said, I

find it interesting that so many humans abstain from religion these days. It

may be evolution that has been a major factor, I don't know. But the need for

religion has been universal in our species throughout history in every culture.

Deanna

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In a message dated 12/13/04 11:40:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,

sonphos@... writes:

> People don't like to believe this, and so they make up stories about

> Christians forcing Christianity on other people. But that's simply not

> possible. The very nature of Christianity is that God offers His gift

> of salvation to those who freely choose to accept it.

___

~~~> That's true-- but are you denying that Christians have ever attempted to

force Christianity or their brand of Christianity on people? Individual

violence of Christians has always occurred. For seven centuries, the State

engaged in some forceful acts to promote Christianity, and in the 11th century

the

papacy began engaging in official religio-military acts to force non-Christians

into Christianity or to force Christians who were not under the authority of

the pope under the authority of the pope. The stories from the Christians

themselves of the sack of Jerusalem in the First Crusade is utterly horrific.

St. Bernard (honored by Roman Catholics) in a time of a subjequent Crusade

praised the crossbreed between monks and soliders that had developed due to the

official military-political nature of the church, and declared that " to kill for

Christ " is " no sin, but an abundant claim to glory. " Pope Innocent III,

according to his personal letters, reacted in " ecstasy " when he was informed

that

" having killed many Greeks, " the Fourth Crusaders had returned Constantinople

under the authority of the pope. While both East and West considered killing

in battle to deserve penance of temporary excommunication up until the 11th

century (and while the East and those in the West in communion with what were at

the time the Eastern Church (now called " Orthodox " with a capital O), the West

offered going to to battle for the church's military as an actual penance

itself.

While the Crusades and other operations under the aegis of the papacy after

the 11th century were a unique event in Christianity in the sense that violence

was given official church sanction and that the Church became an official

military-political unit, history before and after contains individual actions by

Christians to use force to convert people.

However, if you were not denying these facts, I agree with you that true

Christianity cannot do these things, and is prohibited from doing so Biblically

and by the nature of what Christianity is. These things are actions of

individuals that represent deviations from true Christianity and actions that

oppose

the ethos of true Christianity.

Chris

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In a message dated 12/13/04 1:49:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

sonphos@... writes:

> >And I pity anyone who could write something like that.

>

> :) And I respect your right to believe that I need to be pitied.

____

~~~> I appreciate, in some way, the pity of others, even if I believe it to

be misguided. I'm glad that there are some ideologies, religions, and other

motivational factors that lead people to care about people like me that they

don't even know.

Chris

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In a message dated 12/13/04 4:58:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, hl@...

writes:

> And one other consideration: how many wars are fought in the name of

> religion? The Christians fight each other in Ireland, the Palestinians and

Jews

> fight in the Middle East. And on and on it goes. Also, many so-called pro

> lifers are real hip on capital punishment, which is so hypocritical to me.

All

> life is sacred.

___

~~~> Not to forget to include atheism in this category of religions, which

when adopted by States has managed to wipe out millions in a short period of

time.

Chris

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In a message dated 12/13/04 9:50:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Idol@... writes:

> Now that's just a silly rhetorical trick. Many phenomena have killed

> people, and some have killed masses of people in a short time. Religions

> number among those phenomena. To classify a rejection of religion as a

> religion itself, though, is absurd and misleading.

____

~~~> One def. from my pocket Websters is " a cause, principle or belief held

to with faith and ardor. " But what I meant is that atheism is a positive world

view about the supernatural. Agnosticism is not. An agnostic can say " maybe

there is a God, but there is no evidence and no reason to believe in one. "

But atheism is similar to religion in that it makes a dogmatic pronouncement of

faith in the absence of God, like religions will make dogmatic pronouncements

of faith in the existence of God.

I think that atheism in this way is a religious view. I also think that the

way some states have used this dogmatic faith to prosyletize for it and use

violence in favor of it is essentially an identical phenomenon to states or

other organizations that have prosyletized for a dogmatic faith and used

violence

to do so.

You don't see these phenomena as very similar?

I was thinking of the USSR's persecution of religious people of all kinds out

of a militant promotion of atheism.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

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At 06:51 PM 12/13/04 +0000, you wrote:

>

>Little consolation when I am consumed by hellfire.

Would you PLEASE shove over????!!! That's *MY* hellfire you're hoggin'!!!

MFJ

Putting it in our hands gives us so much hope. ~C. Masterjohn

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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:00:57 EST, ChrisMasterjohn@...

<ChrisMasterjohn@...> wrote:

> In a message dated 12/13/04 11:40:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> sonphos@... writes:

>

> > People don't like to believe this, and so they make up stories about

> > Christians forcing Christianity on other people. But that's simply not

> > possible. The very nature of Christianity is that God offers His gift

> > of salvation to those who freely choose to accept it.

> ___

>

> ~~~> That's true-- but are you denying that Christians have ever attempted

> to

> force Christianity or their brand of Christianity on people?

No, I'm not denying that at all. In fact in one of my posts I think I

said that some have tried to force it on others. But it's not possible

because of individual free choice. Christainity is a faith, a belief

in the heart and a relationship with God. That can't be forced on

anyone.

> However, if you were not denying these facts, I agree with you that true

> Christianity cannot do these things, and is prohibited from doing so

> Biblically

> and by the nature of what Christianity is. These things are actions of

> individuals that represent deviations from true Christianity and actions

> that oppose

> the ethos of true Christianity.

And I believe it is these deviations, not true Christianity, which

give it a bad name. Unfortunately, many people don't know the

difference.

Fern

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At 08:28 PM 12/13/04 -0500, you wrote:

>> ~~~> That's true-- but are you denying that Christians have ever attempted

>> to

>> force Christianity or their brand of Christianity on people?

>

>No, I'm not denying that at all. In fact in one of my posts I think I

>said that some have tried to force it on others. But it's not possible

>because of individual free choice. Christainity is a faith, a belief

>in the heart and a relationship with God. That can't be forced on

>anyone.

>

>> However, if you were not denying these facts, I agree with you that true

>> Christianity cannot do these things, and is prohibited from doing so

>> Biblically

>> and by the nature of what Christianity is. These things are actions of

>> individuals that represent deviations from true Christianity and actions

>> that oppose

>> the ethos of true Christianity.

>

>And I believe it is these deviations, not true Christianity, which

>give it a bad name. Unfortunately, many people don't know the

>difference.

>

>Fern

A religion is judged by the actions of those who claim to follow it. End

of story.

MFJ

Who is considering adding to her list of respect-worthy people,

depending on the circumstances of how he managed to not swat somebody right

back and floor da suckah. This I do not quite believe.

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Posted
Posted

>>[Deanna]And one other consideration: how many wars are fought in the name of

>>religion? The Christians fight each other in Ireland, the Palestinians and

Jews

>>fight in the Middle East. And on and on it goes. Also, many so-called pro

>>lifers are real hip on capital punishment, which is so hypocritical to me.

All

>>life is sacred.

>>

>>

>___

>

>~~~> Not to forget to include atheism in this category of religions, which

>when adopted by States has managed to wipe out millions in a short period of

>time.

>

>Chris

>

Absolutely, Chris. Like I said, I hadn't scratched the surface of

possible religions. USSR comes to mind.

Deanna

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Chris-

>~~~> Not to forget to include atheism in this category of religions, which

>when adopted by States has managed to wipe out millions in a short period of

>time.

Now that's just a silly rhetorical trick. Many phenomena have killed

people, and some have killed masses of people in a short time. Religions

number among those phenomena. To classify a rejection of religion as a

religion itself, though, is absurd and misleading.

-

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Posted
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>[] To classify a rejection of religion as a

>religion itself, though, is absurd and misleading.

>

[Deanna] Got sucked into that one. Religion might simply be one's

ethical behavior towards other persons, but atheism certainly isn't

that. BUT then, we do have Buddhism a non theistic, or atheistic religion.

All I can say is me mind is not closed to possibilities.

Deanna

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Deanna-

>[Deanna] Got sucked into that one. Religion might simply be one's

>ethical behavior towards other persons, but atheism certainly isn't

>that. BUT then, we do have Buddhism a non theistic, or atheistic religion.

If the word can mean anything, it means nothing. Here's the definition

from dictionary.com.

1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as

creator and governor of the universe.

1b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a

spiritual leader.

4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

We've clearly been discussing meanings 1 and 2, and possibly 3 inasmuch as

" spiritual leader " is defined as a religious leader in senses 1 and 2.

>All I can say is me mind is not closed to possibilities.

What does that have to do with the logical fallacy of defining opposition

to religion as a religion?

-

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Idol wrote:

>If the word can mean anything, it means nothing. Here's the definition

>from dictionary.com.

>

>1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as

>creator and governor of the universe.

>1b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

>2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

>3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a

>spiritual leader.

>4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

>

>We've clearly been discussing meanings 1 and 2, and possibly 3 inasmuch as

> " spiritual leader " is defined as a religious leader in senses 1 and 2.

>

>

>

>>[Deanna] All I can say is me mind is not closed to possibilities.

>>

>>

>

>[] What does that have to do with the logical fallacy of defining

opposition

>to religion as a religion?

>

>

[Deanna] Nothing. And I would refer to your summary:

" If the word can mean anything, it means nothing. "

Moreover, #4 might encompass terrorism. Thus, it does indeed open up some

possibilities. Again, if basic definitions cannot be agreed upon, then what

does it all mean? Solipsism? <snort>

Deanna

Deanna

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Found these definitions somewhere:

Militant agnostic - " I don't know, and you don't either.

Atheist - " I choose not to believe in something with no logical

support. As far as the origin of the universe, fark if I know. I'm no

physicist. "

haha

B.

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:27:52 -0600, Deanna <hl@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> Idol wrote:

>

> >If the word can mean anything, it means nothing. Here's the definition

> >from dictionary.com.

> >

> >1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as

> >creator and governor of the universe.

> >1b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and

worship.

> >2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

> >3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a

> >spiritual leader.

> >4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious

devotion.

> >

> >We've clearly been discussing meanings 1 and 2, and possibly 3 inasmuch as

> > " spiritual leader " is defined as a religious leader in senses 1 and 2.

> >

> >

> >

> >>[Deanna] All I can say is me mind is not closed to possibilities.

> >>

> >>

> >

> >[] What does that have to do with the logical fallacy of defining

opposition

> >to religion as a religion?

> >

> >

> [Deanna] Nothing. And I would refer to your summary:

>

> " If the word can mean anything, it means nothing. "

>

> Moreover, #4 might encompass terrorism. Thus, it does indeed open up some

possibilities. Again, if basic definitions cannot be agreed upon, then what

does it all mean? Solipsism? <snort>

>

> Deanna

>

>

> Deanna

>

>

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>I find it interesting that so many humans abstain from religion these days. It

may be evolution that has been a major factor, I don't know. But the need for

religion has been universal in our species throughout history in every culture.

>

>Deanna

[HJ] Deanna: I agree with the need, but I don't know that " so many " are

abstaining from " religion " . I think the need for community, tradition, stories,

are there, but they take different forms. Our current culture is a mix of many

different cultures, but the number of people who are TOTALLY " non religious " is

a minority. And even those folks have their own communities, traditions, and

stories. However, it depends how you define " religion " . Scientifically, the

sense of " religious awe " has been tracked to the same part of the brain that

gets stimulated when you view a wonderful site in " nature " . THAT sense doesn't

require a church or doctrine, and I suspect a lot of physicists feel it when

they figure out some mathematical truth.

The difference is that the physicist might enjoy the feeling, and even, it may

drive him to find other truths, but he won't base his formulae on the feeling. A

lot of people agree that " religion " is a part of being human ... but exactly

what " religion " is remains to be defined.

(OK, so that sounds like the folk who say " science is a religion " ... to which I

reply ... " The physicist who feels a feeling of awe at a formula does NOT base

his proof on that feeling. His proof, by the traditions that proofs follow, will

not include feelings. Feelings may motivate him, but they aren't proof).

Heidi [HJ] [HTG]

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