Re: Mini-Treatice on How to Use PDF AcroForms

[Guest guest]

Jerry

That's very interesting. If I had this information a few days ago I

might not have embarked on my forms approach!

What I am doing is creating a PNG image of the PDF so that I can use

it within Synapse. I then take the coordinates of any text etc placed

on that PNG, and convert it to postscript which I then write to give

me the final file which includes the original PDF as an EPS file.

Yes, it is tedious when doing a form with a large number of fields ...

but I have got about 50% of the way through the CMS1500 form ie. I can

place all the default values on the form now.

The reason I chose this way to do things is that this is also the way

I am plotting growth charts.

Here's an example ... my daughter when she was a baby

http://synapse-images.s3.amazonaws.com/growth.pdf

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Graham,

>

> Here is a little mini-treatise on using PDF AcroForms. I would post

> this an attached file somewhere, but I'm not sure where. Maybe

> someone else will benefit from a more detailed description of how to

> work with PDF AcroForms as well. I am probably reviewing a lot of

> stuff you already know, but bear with me.

>

--

Graham Chiu

http://www.synapsedirect.com

Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system

[Guest guest]

Graham - was you baby breastfed? If so, then this is a perfect

example of the inaccuracies of the CDC curves for breastfed babies.

They are " too big " for the first 6 months, then drift down to

" too small " at around 12-15 months then settle into their final

" genetic line " at around 18-24 months. If anybody cares,

there are WHO graphs specifically for breastfed babies where you don't

see this kind of crossing lines.

Loehr, MD

At 02:00 AM 1/4/2008, you wrote:

Here's an example ... my

daughter when she was a baby

http://synapse-images.s3.amazonaws.com/growth.pdf

[Guest guest]

Graham,

Did you draw the graph plot lines on the growth curve, or did the

SyanpseDirect software generate them from the coordinates of each

value? It may be possible for PDF AcroForms to do that (it is a

vector program after all), but if so I don't know how to do it.

I have wondered how to get PDF AcroForms to do graphs. It may be that

the overlay method is way to do it.

Spread sheets are usually all about making graphs, and MS Office with

OLE makes so you can fairly easily generate graphs from word

processing documents, but overlaying a graph on a PDF is something new

to me. Can Acrobat Professional or similar generate graphs from data?

Jerry

> Jerry

>

> That's very interesting. If I had this information a few days ago I

> might not have embarked on my forms approach!

>

> What I am doing is creating a PNG image of the PDF so that I can use

> it within Synapse. I then take the coordinates of any text etc placed

> on that PNG, and convert it to postscript which I then write to give

> me the final file which includes the original PDF as an EPS file.

>

> Yes, it is tedious when doing a form with a large number of fields ...

> but I have got about 50% of the way through the CMS1500 form ie. I can

> place all the default values on the form now.

>

> The reason I chose this way to do things is that this is also the way

> I am plotting growth charts.

>

> Here's an example ... my daughter when she was a baby

>

> http://synapse-images.s3.amazonaws.com/growth.pdf

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jerry

It's the same technique. Since I can map any point to a point on the

PDF, I can therefore use the PDF as graph paper.

So, I turn the original CDC growth chart into a postscript file,

generate the postscript commands to draw the graph, and patient name,

and then insert them into the postscript file, and view.

I chose this way as I did not have a way of working with PDF directly.

So, yes, it is done automatically by Synapse. And since the CDC

growth charts are in English, Spanish and French, I can chose which

language version to print out.

I don't know about Acrobat professional .... I don't have it.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Graham,

>

> Did you draw the graph plot lines on the growth curve, or did the

> SyanpseDirect software generate them from the coordinates of each

> value? It may be possible for PDF AcroForms to do that (it is a

> vector program after all), but if so I don't know how to do it.

>

> I have wondered how to get PDF AcroForms to do graphs. It may be that

> the overlay method is way to do it.

>

> Spread sheets are usually all about making graphs, and MS Office with

> OLE makes so you can fairly easily generate graphs from word

There's still the problem of getting the CDC growth chart as the

background to the graph. And since I have also a Linux version of

Synapse somewhere ...

> processing documents, but overlaying a graph on a PDF is something new

> to me. Can Acrobat Professional or similar generate graphs from data?

>

--

Graham Chiu

http://www.synapsedirect.com

Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system

[Guest guest]

Just wondering if this discussion about programming techniques is off

topic to this list and whether it would be more appropriate on another

list/forum ...

--

Graham Chiu

http://www.synapsedirect.com

Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system

[Guest guest]

Graham,

I am probably all wet, but would venture that the general topic of

automatic filling of .pdf forms

by connecting them to our EMRs or other data sources is appropriate,

but the specific details of the programming are probably not of

any interest to most (but not all) of the people on the list. So maybe

links to working demos of tools that work that we find or develop are

of interest, but how

to program CGI scripts, JAVA, REBOL, Tcl/Tk, are not relevent to the

list.

Maybe just general ideas of what is needed in a program or sort of a

flow diagram

of the program logic or general way it works, without getting into

any programming details might be relevent.

I was thinking of trying to program something that would be

a small SQLite database connected to a specific .pdf form/forms that

you could download as one executable file that has all the needed

software to run it self contained. It might not be connected to a

specific EMR, but at least if you ever had to fill out a .pdf form

on one patient, you could save the information and re-use it for that

same form for that patient over again. That could save a lot of work

for someone that does not yet have an EMR, or who does not have one

that can fill out .pdf forms. There are some of those available

commercially, I think.

Caldwell

>

> Just wondering if this discussion about programming techniques is off

> topic to this list and whether it would be more appropriate on another

> list/forum ...

>

> --

> Graham Chiu

> http://www.synapsedirect.com

> Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system

>

[Guest guest]

Actually, Graham,

There are many of us who “roll our own” on

this list, and I feel that a discussion of how to deal with management of

the plethora of forms we have to deal with is quite appropriate. The

spirit of the Micropractice concept is that the physicians are not afraid to

invest some of their time and energy to find more efficient and less expensive

ways to do things. Many of us have the less expensive commercial EMRs,

and patch together many pieces of low-cost or public domain software to make

our systems work better.

Although I use one of the commercial fully-integrated EMR’s,

I still find that my needs are several releases ahead of where the software is,

so I patch things together using a combination of AWK, Macro Express, Fine

Print, and GIMP. And, there are many people on this listserv who are much

more sophisticated in these matters than I am.

I would suggest that discussions that deal with practical

issues, such as document management, getting data out of our EMRs in a form

that is helpful (like using the computer to plot growth charts), internet

security, remote access to our charts, backing up data, and a myriad of other

things, are helpful to many members of the group. The spirit

of this forum is one of helping each other, and “nuts and bolts”

discussions on how to do things are absolutely OK with me. I would

far rather spend my time with this listserv, and actually learn how to do

things, than read political discussions about CCHIT or listen to the

owners of EMR companies debate each other.

dts

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Graham Chiu

Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 2:16 PM

To:

Subject: Re: Mini-Treatice on How to Use PDF

AcroForms

Just wondering if this discussion about programming techniques is off

topic to this list and whether it would be more appropriate on another

list/forum ...

--

Graham Chiu

http://www.synapsedirect.com

Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system

[Guest guest]

,

My guess is that the easiest way to do this is thru cgi and an

embedded web server backed by sqlite.

Acroforms can be made to point to the web server which then saves the

data, though you might want to add another field to each acroform such

as a patient id so that fdf data can be associated with the correct

patient.

To view previously filled in pdfs, the web server can send the FDF

data back and the browser should automagically load the appropriate

PDF with that data.

Otherwise, if you use the free distiller program AIPDF, you have to

click on save, and then switch back to your own script to capture the

fdf data on the drive to the database.

First step though is to determine if there is sufficient demand for

this ... though I would guess there are those outside medicine who

would use such an application.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Graham,

>

> I am probably all wet, but would venture that the general topic of

> automatic filling of .pdf forms

> by connecting them to our EMRs or other data sources is appropriate,

> but the specific details of the programming are probably not of

> any interest to most (but not all) of the people on the list. So maybe

> links to working demos of tools that work that we find or develop are

> of interest, but how

> to program CGI scripts, JAVA, REBOL, Tcl/Tk, are not relevent to the

> list.

> Maybe just general ideas of what is needed in a program or sort of a

> flow diagram

> of the program logic or general way it works, without getting into

> any programming details might be relevent.

> I was thinking of trying to program something that would be

> a small SQLite database connected to a specific .pdf form/forms that

> you could download as one executable file that has all the needed

> software to run it self contained. It might not be connected to a

> specific EMR, but at least if you ever had to fill out a .pdf form

> on one patient, you could save the information and re-use it for that

> same form for that patient over again. That could save a lot of work

> for someone that does not yet have an EMR, or who does not have one

> that can fill out .pdf forms. There are some of those available

> commercially, I think.

>

> Caldwell

>

>

>

> >

> > Just wondering if this discussion about programming techniques is off

> > topic to this list and whether it would be more appropriate on another

> > list/forum ...

> >

> > --

> > Graham Chiu

> > http://www.synapsedirect.com

> > Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system

> >

>

>

--

Graham Chiu

http://www.synapsedirect.com

Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system

[Guest guest]

, I'm one of those that need specifics, even though I don't understand all the jargon yet (and probably never will, having left my teens long ago; I remember being excited by the notion of a mobile phone that you had to carry around in a suitcase!) (Shoot, I rememer being excited by a television! When I was 5 a house burned down in our neighborhood, and for the kids the major tragedy was that the brand new TV had melted. We didn't get one in our household until nearly a decade later, and we were fascinated by ALL the commercials!) Now I'm fascinated by acronyms I don't even understand, but if I run into them often enough they might start making a little more sense. I'm trying to set up a an EMR on very limited funds, and like many others find my needs outstrip offerings of many of the commercially available programs. I'm putting in my blood, sweat and tears, and this list has been

immensely helpful and heartening. Meanwhile my biller is tearing her hair out trying to get OfficeAlly to work properly. She says it's not updating the forms like it's supposed to, and it's apparently dropping items that need to go into the HCFA (or shifting them to other boxes, or whatever; I get cross-eyed whenever I even LOOK at a HCFA). Anyone else working with OfficeAlly? Any suggestions? If I can't keep her happy I'll have to try to figure it out myself, and then I wouldn't have any time to figure out how those acronyms can help me practice more efficiently on the clinical end, which is what I signed up for. Looking forward to your ideas! Thanks for the support! Sujay Graham,I am probably all wet, but would venture that the general topic of automatic filling of .pdf formsby connecting them to our EMRs or other data sources is appropriate,but the specific details of the programming are probably not of any interest to most (but not all) of the people on the list. So maybe links to working demos of tools that work that we find or develop are of interest, but howto program CGI scripts, JAVA, REBOL, Tcl/Tk, are not relevent to the list.Maybe just general ideas of what is needed in a program or sort of a flow diagramof the program logic or general way it works, without getting intoany programming details might be relevent.I was thinking of trying to program something that would be a small SQLite

database connected to a specific .pdf form/forms thatyou could download as one executable file that has all the needed software to run it self contained. It might not be connected to a specific EMR, but at least if you ever had to fill out a .pdf formon one patient, you could save the information and re-use it for that same form for that patient over again. That could save a lot of work for someone that does not yet have an EMR, or who does not have one that can fill out .pdf forms. There are some of those available commercially, I think. Caldwell>> Just wondering if this discussion about programming techniques is off> topic to this list and whether it would be more appropriate on another> list/forum ...> > --

> Graham Chiu> http://www.synapsedirect.com> Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system>

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Larry Lyons said OfficeAlly was very helpful to him in set up - have they been working with you?And I found another free clearinghouse called Solace, which transmits to all the insurance plans I needed. GuinnAre you using EZ Claims to generate the claims? They have a not very expensive clearinghouse also., I'm one of those that need specifics, even though I don't understand all the jargon yet (and probably never will, having left my teens long ago; I remember being excited by the notion of a mobile phone that you had to carry around in a suitcase!) (Shoot, I rememer being excited by a television! When I was 5 a house burned down in our neighborhood, and for the kids the major tragedy was that the brand new TV had melted. We didn't get one in our household until nearly a decade later, and we were fascinated by ALL the commercials!) Now I'm fascinated by acronyms I don't even understand, but if I run into them often enough they might start making a little more sense. I'm trying to set up a an EMR on very limited funds, and like many others find my needs outstrip offerings of many of the commercially available programs. I'm putting in my blood, sweat and tears, and this list has been immensely helpful and heartening. Meanwhile my biller is tearing her hair out trying to get OfficeAlly to work properly. She says it's not updating the forms like it's supposed to, and it's apparently dropping items that need to go into the HCFA (or shifting them to other boxes, or whatever; I get cross-eyed whenever I even LOOK at a HCFA). Anyone else working with OfficeAlly? Any suggestions? If I can't keep her happy I'll have to try to figure it out myself, and then I wouldn't have any time to figure out how those acronyms can help me practice more efficiently on the clinical end, which is what I signed up for. Looking forward to your ideas! Thanks for the support! SujayGraham,I am probably all wet, but would venture that the general topic of automatic filling of .pdf formsby connecting them to our EMRs or other data sources is appropriate,but the specific details of the programming are probably not of any interest to most (but not all) of the people on the list. So maybe links to working demos of tools that work that we find or develop are of interest, but howto program CGI scripts, JAVA, REBOL, Tcl/Tk, are not relevent to the list.Maybe just general ideas of what is needed in a program or sort of a flow diagramof the program logic or general way it works, without getting intoany programming details might be relevent.I was thinking of trying to program something that would be a small SQLite database connected to a specific .pdf form/forms thatyou could download as one executable file that has all the needed software to run it self contained. It might not be connected to a specific EMR, but at least if you ever had to fill out a .pdf formon one patient, you could save the information and re-use it for that same form for that patient over again. That could save a lot of work for someone that does not yet have an EMR, or who does not have one that can fill out .pdf forms. There are some of those available commercially, I think. Caldwell>> Just wondering if this discussion about programming techniques is off> topic to this list and whether it would be more appropriate on another> list/forum ...> > -- > Graham Chiu> http://www.synapsedirect.com> Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system>Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Jerry

I did a short video to show how growth charts work .. I suspect that

the nurse who did the measurements was not exactly meticulous !

http://synapse-movies.s3.amazonaws.com/synapse-emr-growth-charts.wmv

> Did you draw the graph plot lines on the growth curve, or did the

> SyanpseDirect software generate them from the coordinates of each

> value? It may be possible for PDF AcroForms to do that (it is a

> vector program after all), but if so I don't know how to do it.

--

Graham Chiu

http://www.synapsedirect.com

Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system

[Guest guest]

, I don't know whether you're planning on moving to SolAce, but

be sure you know what you're getting into. SolAce isn't actually a

clearinghouse in the sense that OfficeAlly is. It is software that

will sort and send claims directly from your computer to payers that

allow direct connections. Some payers don't allow that, so you still

have to go through an actual clearinghouse to get to them.

That said, I often wish I had used SolAce linked to a mostly-free

clearinghouse rather than the full-service clearinghouse I now use...

Haresch

> > >

> > > Just wondering if this discussion about programming techniques is

> > off

> > > topic to this list and whether it would be more appropriate on

> > another

> > > list/forum ...

> > >

> > > --

> > > Graham Chiu

> > > http://www.synapsedirect.com

> > > Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.

> > Try it now.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I've been using Solace quite successfully for 6 months now.To be more specific - it converts the EZ Claims simple text files to an ANSI 837 (??) format and forwards them to Availity, which is the clearinghouse. All of that has been free so far. I believe that Availity only charges for certain Medicare claims and those only if their number is large. , I don't know whether you're planning on moving to SolAce, butbe sure you know what you're getting into. SolAce isn't actually aclearinghouse in the sense that OfficeAlly is. It is software thatwill sort and send claims directly from your computer to payers thatallow direct connections. Some payers don't allow that, so you stillhave to go through an actual clearinghouse to get to them.That said, I often wish I had used SolAce linked to a mostly-freeclearinghouse rather than the full-service clearinghouse I now use... Haresch> > >> > > Just wondering if this discussion about programming techniques is > > off> > > topic to this list and whether it would be more appropriate on > > another> > > list/forum ...> > >> > > --> > > Graham Chiu> > > http://www.synapsedirect.com> > > Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system> > >> >> >> >> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. > > Try it now.> >> >>

[Guest guest]

,

Oh...I didn't realize...Thanks for clarifying....Good to know that

it's working out for you, since I hope to get back there one day. Can

you share some more about how the setup process was, how the support

is, whether you're able to get ERA, what you're using for practice

mgmt/accounting to interface with SolAce? Thanks!

Haresch

> > > > >

> > > > > Just wondering if this discussion about programming

> > techniques is

> > > > off

> > > > > topic to this list and whether it would be more appropriate on

> > > > another

> > > > > list/forum ...

> > > > >

> > > > > --

> > > > > Graham Chiu

> > > > > http://www.synapsedirect.com

> > > > > Synapse-EMR - innovative electronic medical records system

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.

> > > > Try it now.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>