RE: Air conditioning

February 23, 2007

,

During the winter here in Ft Lauderdale we have people in mold contaminated homes that are very sick from mold. I tell them to open their windows but they tell me that they were advised by a mold consultant that they should not.

Go figure.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: Here we go again [was: Insurance cap...]I'm sorry, I should clarify that this was me snapping (I'm sorry thatI got mad, its not for his last post but its for some of the thingshe's said previously) at .The point that I was trying to make is that when poor people rent andthey complain about mold, more often than not the 'solution' that theyoften fight for months or even years to get is no solution at all, forthem.If they haven't moved already, obviously they will have to moveregardless of whether there is anyplace for them to go or not. If theyend up like me then they are so sick that they can't live in manyother places either.And they can't work in many workplaces.Look, let me

spell it out just the last few days worth..I know thatfor me myself and I am in my 40s, too young for this, I can't go intomany places without getting ill. A few days my wife and I wentshopping for cheap - very cheap - GPS units because we both are notdoing well reading maps or finding places.. something I used to bereally good at - that ability is now literally gone.. fried..whatever..So we went into some of these big office supply stores and Iimmediately got a splitting headache. The result of this is that Istay at home and don't go out that much because unless the destinationis outdoors, I know that in many places I will get sick and I do. So Iavoid them unless its necessary.What the hell are people like me supposed to do when (if?) we recoverenough to start looking for jobs?So please excuse me for getting angry.. but I think we really needsome EFFECTIVE way of TESTING AND CERTIFYING WITHOUT A DOUBT

THATPLACES ARE ACTUALLY REMEDIATED AND WE NEED TO CODIFY THAT INTO LAW...Then when you folks accept a job you will have a defined goal and youwill have to price your services to reflect its true cost. If thatmeans that insurance rates will have to go up so be it. By allaccounts insurance companies have been raking in record profits, evenwith Katrina etc. so I don't think that they will be impacted thatmuch.. The net result will be the purchasers of insurance will have todo better maintenance rather that rely on insurance companies to bailthem out of situations that are frequently and emphatically theirfault.if you don't maintain a building, you have problems.>> Oh the 'magic of the marketplace' , right?>> (I probably should not have brought this up to you because I didn't> want to give you ideas)>

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February 24, 2007

,

Isn’t it moisture that is the primary

problem? Let me explain; i.e. the A/C’s primary function is to remove the

moisture 2nd is to cool. Once the moisture is under control the cooling

effects are detectable or realized. In Canada

(say 10 degrees) in relationship to the Northeast it’s cold although the

air in Canada

is drier. Due to less moisture the cold doesn’t seem to penetrate your

clothing allowing one to stay worm longer. In Arizona under opposite temperature conditions

(say 95 degrees) it is more tolerable due to less moisture in the outside air. Therefore

moisture is the greater factor and the more moisture in the ambient air the

greater energy consumption for cooling requirements.

Based on the above, if you had dry air and

applied cooling the cooling is not the cause of illness it is the amount of available

moisture suspended in the air which can accumulate on building materials or

substrates.

Dew point and available moisture are the

real issues before us. It is not the RH that is of concern as some believe and

are taught (WRT). You can have RH of 50% and one would say there is no issue

here (because it is being taught that the RH is below the 60 percent range). This

may not always be true or accurate. Let’s take a look at any potential cold

spots on warmer building materials or substrates. On these surfaces that are

below dew point [which reflects the process of a dehumidifier (cold spot

representing the cooling coils)] water accumulation will occur allowing for

microbial proliferation to occur. Therefore water activity or available

moisture on the building material(s) and/or substrate(s) is the real issue.

Reduce the available moisture and microbial growth is mitigated.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Geyer

Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007

12:09 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Air

Conditioning

:

All VERY well stated.

And let me add a few tidbits regarding air conditioning. AC is the root

cause of many of the ills we discuss on IEQuality. People demand creature

comforts and they want to sit on their butts at 75F regardless of the outdoor

temp. HVAC systems are not well designed for long-term health control,

they are based purely on temperature control – ducts and equipment are

not typically located/routed to be periodically cleaned or maintained, they

become soiled and dysfunctional in a matter of 5 to 10 years, and they

contribute to health problems of the occupants therein. If people would

open their windows and allow the air to flow through their homes, moisture

would be removed along with most of the VOCs and SVOCs that contribute to poor

IAQ. Alas, but this would prohibit maintaining the 75F temperature that

people has become accustomed to. In fact, many folks have become

intolerant to anything over 85F. Also consider that this

Country’s Founding Fathers decided to locate the capital (Washington DC)

on a mosquito-infested swamp in order to limit the time politicians would spend

being politicians, i.e., to avoid having career politicians residing in an

“in-habitable” place. They felt, and wrote, that when

politicians are politicizing, the common man should fear for his life, liberty,

and property rights. Air Conditioning has really mucked things up!

We now have career politicians that reside in D.C. who have no clue what

us common folks need or do, and constantly pontificate laws that infringe on

our rights. Moreover, some of the worst IAQ is in our nation’s

buildings in D.C......all because of air conditioning!

For what it is worth....

On 2/22/07 2:39 PM, " gary

rosen " <garyrosen72652> wrote:

Quack,

It is not that simple. I'm doing a small remediation job for a woman that

has cancer and is undergoing chemotherapy. She was never sensitive to

mold but now is. She is of modest means but not poor. She wants a mold

free house. This means like new. This costs money.

I was there to remove and replace part of her front wall which was water

damaged. (Insurance paid her about 2x what I charged.)

While there doing the remediation work I cut open her AC ducts. They were 25

year old rigid duct and were quite nasty. Her shag carpets are 15 years

old. I explained that for her house to be like new (mold free) she would need

new ducts as the current ducts cannot be cleaned. And she would need new

carpet as the current carpet is way beyond cleaning.

She has decided to have this work done. When done we will go back in and

clean and test and provide a like new home for her.

This is looking at the mold and allergen problems from a " whole

house " point of view. You can't just fix a wall and then as part of

that work and with some extensive testing somehow make the house like new.

Often there needs to be big money spent on AC duct replacement, new

carpet, mold remediation and sometimes replacing old fabric furniture and

curtains etc.

Poor people cannot afford this. What they can do is rip out the old

carpet and open their windows to keep their homes well ventillated. In

third world countries there is no increase in asthma or cases of mold illnesses

since there is no AC and homes are open to the fresh outside air.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com <http://www.Mold-Books.com>

Re: Here we go again [was: Insurance cap...]

I'm sorry, I should clarify that this was me snapping (I'm sorry that

I got mad, its not for his last post but its for some of the things

he's said previously) at .

The point that I was trying to make is that when poor people rent and

they complain about mold, more often than not the 'solution' that they

often fight for months or even years to get is no solution at all, for

them.

If they haven't moved already, obviously they will have to move

regardless of whether there is anyplace for them to go or not. If they

end up like me then they are so sick that they can't live in many

other places either.

And they can't work in many workplaces.

Look, let me spell it out just the last few days worth..I know that

for me myself and I am in my 40s, too young for this, I can't go into

many places without getting ill. A few days my wife and I went

shopping for cheap - very cheap - GPS units because we both are not

doing well reading maps or finding places.. something I used to be

really good at - that ability is now literally gone.. fried..

whatever..

So we went into some of these big office supply stores and I

immediately got a splitting headache. The result of this is that I

stay at home and don't go out that much because unless the destination

is outdoors, I know that in many places I will get sick and I do. So I

avoid them unless its necessary.

What the hell are people like me supposed to do when (if?) we recover

enough to start looking for jobs?

So please excuse me for getting angry.. but I think we really need

some EFFECTIVE way of TESTING AND CERTIFYING WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT

PLACES ARE ACTUALLY REMEDIATED AND WE NEED TO CODIFY THAT INTO LAW...

Then when you folks accept a job you will have a defined goal and you

will have to price your services to reflect its true cost. If that

means that insurance rates will have to go up so be it. By all

accounts insurance companies have been raking in record profits, even

with Katrina etc. so I don't think that they will be impacted that

much.. The net result will be the purchasers of insurance will have to

do better maintenance rather that rely on insurance companies to bail

them out of situations that are frequently and emphatically their

fault.

if you don't maintain a building, you have problems.

>

> Oh the 'magic of the marketplace' , right?

>

> (I probably should not have brought this up to you because I didn't

> want to give you ideas)

>

February 24, 2007

Bob/Ma:

For many, many years, AC’s primary function was temperature control; removing moisture was an ancillary and little thought of capability of AC. Moreover, the removed moisture was was, more often than not, thought of as a royal pain in the ass to deal with effectively, remove it, and maintain dry components. It is only within a recent 10yrs, that moisture control has shifted the basis/design for AC, especially in locations where the moisture load is significantly greater than the temperature load, e.g., Atlanta. Within the last 5yrs, ASHRAE has made some significant advances in providing design criteria for moisture removal and AC – the best systems being a dual-component installation (one a continuous-duty system to remove moisture and the other cycles to provide temperature control). Valin provided some very good design info to IEQuality a few months back on this very subject. Bottom line.....No, AC’s primary function has historically been temperature control and it is still that way in most (estimate 95%) locations.

,

Isn’t it moisture that is the primary problem? Let me explain; i.e. the A/C’s primary function is to remove the moisture 2nd is to cool. Once the moisture is under control the cooling effects are detectable or realized. In Canada (say 10 degrees) in relationship to the Northeast it’s cold although the air in Canada is drier. Due to less moisture the cold doesn’t seem to penetrate your clothing allowing one to stay worm longer. In Arizona under opposite temperature conditions (say 95 degrees) it is more tolerable due to less moisture in the outside air. Therefore moisture is the greater factor and the more moisture in the ambient air the greater energy consumption for cooling requirements.

Based on the above, if you had dry air and applied cooling the cooling is not the cause of illness it is the amount of available moisture suspended in the air which can accumulate on building materials or substrates.

Dew point and available moisture are the real issues before us. It is not the RH that is of concern as some believe and are taught (WRT). You can have RH of 50% and one would say there is no issue here (because it is being taught that the RH is below the 60 percent range). This may not always be true or accurate. Let’s take a look at any potential cold spots on warmer building materials or substrates. On these surfaces that are below dew point [which reflects the process of a dehumidifier (cold spot representing the cooling coils)] water accumulation will occur allowing for microbial proliferation to occur. Therefore water activity or available moisture on the building material(s) and/or substrate(s) is the real issue. Reduce the available moisture and microbial growth is mitigated.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Geyer

Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 12:09 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Air Conditioning

:

All VERY well stated.

And let me add a few tidbits regarding air conditioning. AC is the root cause of many of the ills we discuss on IEQuality. People demand creature comforts and they want to sit on their butts at 75F regardless of the outdoor temp. HVAC systems are not well designed for long-term health control, they are based purely on temperature control – ducts and equipment are not typically located/routed to be periodically cleaned or maintained, they become soiled and dysfunctional in a matter of 5 to 10 years, and they contribute to health problems of the occupants therein. If people would open their windows and allow the air to flow through their homes, moisture would be removed along with most of the VOCs and SVOCs that contribute to poor IAQ. Alas, but this would prohibit maintaining the 75F temperature that people has become accustomed to. In fact, many folks have become intolerant to anything over 85F. Also consider that this Country’s Founding Fathers decided to locate the capital (Washington DC) on a mosquito-infested swamp in order to limit the time politicians would spend being politicians, i.e., to avoid having career politicians residing in an “in-habitable” place. They felt, and wrote, that when politicians are politicizing, the common man should fear for his life, liberty, and property rights. Air Conditioning has really mucked things up! We now have career politicians that reside in D.C. who have no clue what us common folks need or do, and constantly pontificate laws that infringe on our rights. Moreover, some of the worst IAQ is in our nation’s buildings in D.C......all because of air conditioning!

For what it is worth....

Quack,

It is not that simple. I'm doing a small remediation job for a woman that has cancer and is undergoing chemotherapy. She was never sensitive to mold but now is. She is of modest means but not poor. She wants a mold free house. This means like new. This costs money.

I was there to remove and replace part of her front wall which was water damaged. (Insurance paid her about 2x what I charged.)

While there doing the remediation work I cut open her AC ducts. They were 25 year old rigid duct and were quite nasty. Her shag carpets are 15 years old. I explained that for her house to be like new (mold free) she would need new ducts as the current ducts cannot be cleaned. And she would need new carpet as the current carpet is way beyond cleaning.

She has decided to have this work done. When done we will go back in and clean and test and provide a like new home for her.

This is looking at the mold and allergen problems from a " whole house " point of view. You can't just fix a wall and then as part of that work and with some extensive testing somehow make the house like new. Often there needs to be big money spent on AC duct replacement, new carpet, mold remediation and sometimes replacing old fabric furniture and curtains etc.

Poor people cannot afford this. What they can do is rip out the old carpet and open their windows to keep their homes well ventillated. In third world countries there is no increase in asthma or cases of mold illnesses since there is no AC and homes are open to the fresh outside air.