Re: Re: Smoking & Health

[Guest guest]

>That said, I think people are right that given my health problems I

>need to take more of a purist approach to my health. There are many

>things that a healthy person can enjoy that I can't. Smoking, beer,

>grains, beans, potatoes, dairy, many raw fruits and veggies, and,

>*sigh*, I'm sure the list could go on.

>

Don't feel too bad. My health is fine, yet it wouldn't be if I smoked,

drank gluten brews, or ate starchy carbs, GF or otherwise. I think

caffeine is something I should add to the list. And I can't believe you

don't have it on yours! Here you wanted to focus on coffee/caffeine

abstinence, yet smoking gets all the press, lol. I went without the

java today and had some chai instead. I have decided to go caffeine

free for the next 3 days at least. I'd like to do tea in the mornings

during the week, but always give myself a good 3 days off every week.

It sounds like a more moderate approach to caffeine. When I take coffee

again in autumn, I'll keep it to once a week only, as it makes me

jittery, no doubt about it.

I challenge you to drop the coffee. Since you have a harder time

dropping it, why not switch to tea for a time? Some people don't like

tea, do you? Maybe others can offer good choices. I like Celestial

Seasonings Roastaroma, but it contains gluten, so that's out for me.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>I'm going to drop it during my upcoming fast. I

>might have to find a good caffeine-free energy supplement to get me

>through it though. If it were a week's withdrawals I can handle. But

>I'm not prepared to go 1, 3, 6 months, or an indefinite amount of time

>without the ability to function well!

>

>

When do you start the fast? Good luck finding a transition for caffeine

free living. You might find the withdrawals problematic, but hopefully

you'll be functioning well in no time. Caffeine is not an essential

nutrient after all. <g>

>I have some guarana chai I could replace it with, which has caffeine,

>but less, and is more calming than jittery.

>

That's exactly what difference I find between any tea and coffee.

Coffee has a heavy feel on my body as well for me, if that makes sense.

I think I'll just ditch coffee for good.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

On 7/28/05, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> Anyway, despite the positive effect on breathing (really, I'm not

> kidding!), it seems that when I smoke, I'm more likely to bite my

> tongue or the insides of my cheeks and inhale foods or drinks down the

> wrong pipe. I've never heard this to be a symptom of smoking, but

> nevertheless I seem to have verified it through my on-and-off smoking

> over the past year. I'm guessing it must have something to do with

> the nicotine's effect on my sensory nerves in my mouth and throat.

> Additionally, sometimes, although only occasionally, it gives me a

> lump in my throat, and it seems to make my hands much more likely to

> fall asleep.

Been trying to stay out of this as I am a AS smoker, coffee drinker

and don't have not smoking to compare to. Can say that ataxia and

neuropathy are considered and can be symptoms of gluten intolerance.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>and I find that smoking seems to clear my lungs,

>oddly, for nearly any lung problem *except* lung problems associated

>with being sick, which it unambiguously makes worse.

Just an offhand thought -- no real science behind it. Could it be that

this is analogous to people who drink daily needing a drink after work to

" unwind " , even though a lot of the " winding " is actually caused by the

drinking in the first place?

-

[Guest guest]

Deanna-

>That's exactly what difference I find between any tea and coffee.

>Coffee has a heavy feel on my body as well for me, if that makes sense.

>I think I'll just ditch coffee for good.

In my experience, coffee is the most glorious substance known to man... for

anywhere from a week to a month. Then the drawbacks begin to outweigh the

benefits and it stops working for me. It's sad, because it really changes

my life for the better for that little while, but I just can't use it.

-

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Sounds like it's helping to boost your adrenal output and then you

>quickly become depleted, right?

Most likely, and since I unquestionably have adrenal insufficiency

problems, I'm just making things worse in the long run when I occasionally

resort to coffee. But the incredible focus and clarity and energy it gives

me for awhile is magical. I'm never more productive than in the beginning

of a coffee run.

>I generally find the same exact thing, only what has happened in the

>past is I very quickly need to go up to my last peak coffee

>consumption just to feel normal, and I get rather intense cravings for

>it mid-day. Yet, the effects of it are so week than I can drink a

> " medium " coffee from Dunkin Donuts (which is pretty big) a couple

>hours before bed and fall right asleep, whereas coffee used to always

>keep me up at night.

I think it's more a sign of adaptation than weakness of effect that you can

drink a big coffee shortly before bed.

As to me, the funny thing is I never have coffee cravings (except for the

taste, which I can satisfy when necessary with decaf) and the only actual

withdrawal symptoms I have are extra exhaustion and some initial

headachiness when I quit.

Tomorrow I'm going to try some rhodiola. I've had some pure extract

sitting on my desk for a couple weeks waiting for a test run, and it's time

to put the pedal to the metal.

-

[Guest guest]

> >Deanna: I challenge you to drop the coffee. Since you have a harder time

> > dropping it, why not switch to tea for a time?

>

> : Right now I'm drinking a small mug in the morning and that's it. ....

I

> did try quitting for several weeks just recently, but found that I

> don't function well. I'm going to drop it during my upcoming fast. I

> might have to find a good caffeine-free energy supplement to get me

> through it though. If it were a week's withdrawals I can handle. But

> I'm not prepared to go 1, 3, 6 months, or an indefinite amount of time

> without the ability to function well! I have some guarana chai I could replace

it with, which >has caffeine, but less, and is more calming than jittery.

>

Although the coffee won't be serving you in the long term, I can't

help remembering what Eisenstein says in _The Yoga Of Eating_

about people self medicating, and wondering if it wouldn't serve you

badly in the short term to just suddenly stop it.

Have you looked at taking l-tyrosine, as per Ross, instead?

(Though according to katja, if I remember rightly, even that wouldn't

sevre you well in the long term, if you don't sort out the adrenals.)

Cheers, Deb

PS Maybe you missed my earlier post, so I'll say it again. You may be

having a negative reaction to the titanium in your mouth. Get it

checked out. The link again: www.allergyantidotes.com

[Guest guest]

>

> > Most likely, and since I unquestionably have adrenal insufficiency

> > problems, I'm just making things worse in the long run when I

> occasionally

> > resort to coffee. But the incredible focus and clarity and energy it

> gives

> > me for awhile is magical. I'm never more productive than in the

> beginning

> > of a coffee run.

Boy, can I relate to that statement, ! I just finished a kind of run (5

days) and I'm now Really feeling the effects... just dragging and edgy and

exhausted but doubt I'll sleep well... I allowed myself that little period

because I was feeling rested enough and I was tired of looking at all the

work piled up around here. I justified the abuse to my body in all sorts of

ways and I did have a lot of fun and I did get a lot of stuff cleaned up --

even built some shelves and mounted them on concrete block in the cellar.

> > I think it's more a sign of adaptation than weakness of effect that you

> can

> > drink a big coffee shortly before bed.

I agree here. Back to the old " the body can adapt to most anything " adage..

> > As to me, the funny thing is I never have coffee cravings (except for

> the

> > taste, which I can satisfy when necessary with decaf) and the only

> actual

> > withdrawal symptoms I have are extra exhaustion and some initial

> > headachiness when I quit.

I never care about the taste of anything anymore. I either crave fuel for

energy or drugs to change the view..

> Tomorrow I'm going to try some rhodiola. I've had some pure extract

> > sitting on my desk for a couple weeks waiting for a test run, and it's

> time

> > to put the pedal to the metal

Might be time to kick back and just rest..

~Robin Ann

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>I tried it, and it helped a little, but I didn't find it to be

>particularly effective.

Try acetyl l-carnitine.

-

[Guest guest]

On 7/28/05, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> That said, I think people are right that given my health problems I

> need to take more of a purist approach to my health. There are many

> things that a healthy person can enjoy that I can't. Smoking, beer,

> grains, beans, potatoes, dairy, many raw fruits and veggies, and,

> *sigh*, I'm sure the list could go on.

When I was your age, actually a little younger, I was very very sick.

Mind you, I had never smoked anything, drank very infrequently, and

was one of the top athletes in the country for my sport, i.e. I was

very very fit. Yet there I lay, according to the doctors, just days

away from death's door.

I was a " victim " of SAD pure and simple. I wasn't a victim of tobacco

and all the hysteria going on on this list about it. I wasn't out of

shape. I didn't have a problem with nerves or laced marijuana or

strange feeding habits when I was kid. I was a victim of SAD pure and

simple. And yet as terrible as that experience was (and it was

absolutely terrible), it was the best thing that ever happened to me

physically. Getting sick young turned me around, and led me down a

path that I might not otherwise have ever taken.

When I got started it was with fasting. I saw my dad fast when I was a

kid. I remember doing it briefly as a kid. It was quite natural for me

to read the book he had about it when health beacme a priority to me.

I was shocked at what I read to say the least. But that book turned me

around in a huge way in a very short period of time. It would take a

little while to add the other stuff, but it came in time.

So you should count yourself blessed that you can see your way clear

now, rather than at age 40 or 50 when you would have many more years

of abuse to overcome.

From the time when the doctors told my parents that they weren't sure

I was going to make it, to when I lit up my first cigar was 8 years. I

probably was healthy enough before then but that kind of stuff wasn't

on my radar screen until a friend opened my eyes to a few things while

living in California.

So get well, but don't think it is a death sentence. Be grateful that

someone was courageous enough to hand you a pamphlet on raw milk. You

will probably be able to drink beer again. And milk, and probably even

eat gluten grains (if you desire) although you wouldn't think so if

you are on the GFCFNN list. But while I recognize the problem, my

approach and attitude about the whole thing is somewhat different.

Anyway, be a good faster. From my experience, it really does

accelerate the healing process.

take care,

[Guest guest]

>

> So get well, but don't think it is a death sentence. Be grateful that

> > > someone was courageous enough to hand you a pamphlet on raw milk. You

> > > will probably be able to drink beer again. And milk, and probably even

> > > eat gluten grains (if you desire) although you wouldn't think so if

> > > you are on the GFCFNN list. But while I recognize the problem, my

> > > approach and attitude about the whole thing is somewhat different.

> > >

> >

> > , You are showing your lack of education about gluten autoimmune

illness by combining gluten intolerance with milk allergies in your pitch.

Yes, I too think that and I and anyone else who might have a genetic

problem with gluten may someday be able to drink milk again but that will be

because the cell walls of the small intestine have healed completely.

Gluten, if you are genetically predisposed, is not an allergy. It is an

autoimmune illness that is responsible for causing a lot of damage to one's

gut which in turn causes the various food allergies. Eliminate gluten and

your gut repairs itself and then, sure, the allergies will probably all

disappear.

But, again, gluten is not an allergy. Once it's identified as being a kind

of poison to certain people with the HLA DQ2 or HLA DQ8 markers, it can

never be grown out of.

~Robin

[Guest guest]

Robin-

> Gluten, if you are genetically predisposed, is not an allergy. It is an

>autoimmune illness that is responsible for causing a lot of damage to one's

>gut which in turn causes the various food allergies. Eliminate gluten and

>your gut repairs itself and then, sure, the allergies will probably all

>disappear.

> But, again, gluten is not an allergy. Once it's identified as being a kind

>of poison to certain people with the HLA DQ2 or HLA DQ8 markers, it can

>never be grown out of.

Unfortunately, people tend to take fairly simplistic approaches towards

things. Nowadays one fad is " it's all in the genes " . People who believe

this don't seem to understand that the body is an extremely complex system

and that genes are only one set of elements in a vast group of

equations. This sort of thinking really isn't much better than " eating

cholesterol gives you heart disease " and " eating fat makes you fat " .

It's not completely impossible that gluten and perhaps even casein are

actually fundamental causes of problems by themselves in certain people,

but I think it's unlikely, particularly for casein. So many things in our

modern lifestyles compromise digestion that it's important to take account

of all of them. may well be suffering from hypochlorhydria, a

disorder which can cause all sorts of immune reactions to foods by allowing

proteins to proceed to the intestines either undigested or incompletely

digested by the gastric juices the stomach is supposed to produce. I,

unfortunately, am intimately familiar with this problem, as an asthma

medication I took some years ago apparently destroyed my ability to produce

adequate gastric juice.

is not going to magically repair his gut just by removing gluten and

casein from his diet -- even if it turns out that he's reacting to

them. There are no magic bullets.

-

[Guest guest]

Yo ,

>

>Just an offhand thought -- no real science behind it. Could it be that

>this is analogous to people who drink daily needing a drink after work to

> " unwind " , even though a lot of the " winding " is actually caused by the

>drinking in the first place?

>

I've been thinking about this, but haven't a clue about the idea that

drinking causes the winding. Oh, it's true people get dependent on

things like this. I drink wine with extravagant food, but keep it to

half the week tops. So I can see people will " need " that habitual after

work drink (or nightcap, etc.), but I don't get the wind-up part.

Please 'splain.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

> [] may well be suffering from hypochlorhydria, a

> disorder which can cause all sorts of immune reactions to foods by

> allowing proteins to proceed to the intestines either undigested or

> incompletely digested by the gastric juices the stomach is supposed to

> produce. I, unfortunately, am intimately familiar with this problem, as an

> asthma medication I took some years ago apparently destroyed my ability to

> produce adequate gastric juice.

>

> is not going to magically repair his gut just by removing gluten and

> casein from his diet -- even if it turns out that he's reacting to them.

> There are no magic bullets.

I too have hypochlorydia from a h. pylori caused ulcer that put a hole in

my stomach and blocked my stomach canal. Antibiotics rid me of the bacterial

infection and a recent biopsy shows that my stomach looks normal (yet the

cells still do not make acid). Taking HCl and enzymes has allowed me to gain

back the 20 pounds I lost in a month after the ulcer triggered what my

doctored called " classic celiac syndrome " . In the past month since also

eliminating milk from my diet, I've become well enough to start working out

again and my muscles are coming back nicely. I have virtually no stomach

bloating, no gas or belching, and I feel an optimal healthy state is right

around the corner.

I tried virtually everything over the past two years since the ulcer and

nothing worked until I simply stopped gluten and casein. A specialist tested

me for the HLA DQ2 and HLA DQ8 genes and I have them. He next took several

biopsies of my small intestine (a few weeks ago) and I have villious atrophy

(flattened scarred villi.) It's going to take a little time to grow the

villi back. I will know how well I'm healing in a couple of months when I

get another biopsy. My doctor says I have " Proven Celiac Disease. " It says

it on my chart and will probably screw up my insurance for a long time to

come but I just wanted to know..

I'd never heard of gluten until a couple months ago when everyone was

kidding Heidi about it. It was pure coincidence that I visited my new G.I.

around that time. In the past couple months I've read a lot of scientific

literature about it including Marsh M.D. " Celiac Disease " textbook

for medical schools. " Dangerous Grains " is a good book for general

information.

This is not a fad thing. I rarely wrote to your message group but when I

noticed that was having *exactly* the same problems I'd been having I

thought I'd offer my own experience and of course, you guys can do with it

as you like. I'm happy to know what the cause was for me because I'm looking

forawrd to getting back to a life that isn't centered around food

discussions on message boards. I'm hoping this past couple years will be

just a drop in the bucket of an otherwise active and productive life.

Unless, you and and others take the time to actually read some of

the scientific literature on gluten-intolerance, common courtesy (and common

sense!)dictates that maybe you should keep your uninformed views to

yourselves. Put views out there that are based on some sort of science and

maybe I or others will take the time to respond but this sort of crackpot

put-down comment toward an illness that affects a lot of people is

irresponsible and doesn't reflect well on the group.

I don't know and I don't know if has gluten-intolerance. I'm

pretty sure he's allergic to milk because of his comments and if I were him

I'd try to go gluten-free for awhile to see if that helps. I think it will

but, hey, maybe it won't.

If he IS gluten-intolerant, then there IS a magic bullet: It is removing

gluten (and at least temporarily casein). Easiest damn thing you can ever do

-- just stop eating the stuff.

~Robin

[Guest guest]

On 7/29/05, Robin Ann <grainwreck@...> wrote:

> > > , You are showing your lack of education about gluten autoimmune

> illness by combining gluten intolerance with milk allergies in your pitch.

> Yes, I too think that and I and anyone else who might have a genetic

> problem with gluten may someday be able to drink milk again but that will be

> because the cell walls of the small intestine have healed completely.

> Gluten, if you are genetically predisposed, is not an allergy. It is an

> autoimmune illness that is responsible for causing a lot of damage to one's

> gut which in turn causes the various food allergies. Eliminate gluten and

> your gut repairs itself and then, sure, the allergies will probably all

> disappear.

> But, again, gluten is not an allergy. Once it's identified as being a kind

> of poison to certain people with the HLA DQ2 or HLA DQ8 markers, it can

> never be grown out of.

> ~Robin

This is the third time someone has said this to me on list, so

hopefully this time I can make myself unequivocally clear.

It might not have been clear in my post but I specifically had in mind

gluten intolerance and casein intolerance. I don't think *either* can

be " grown out of " . Unless you know something I don't know about the

problematic A1 casein it can be a problem even with a great gut. I

don't think however that the last word has been written on either

subject and that the making of categorical statements is premature,

especially when the evidence prima facie suggests otherwise. Nor do I

think just the presence of the gluten gene in and of itself means much

as there are many factors that can come into play.

It seems to me that frequently when someone suggests that gluten might

possibly be *handled* by someone who is gluten intolerant, there is an

aggressive reaction by some GF'ers to the whole concept. I might be

wrong but that is my perception.

I wrote a post on another list which spilled over to another list

(with little involvement from me) questioning the broad brushing of

gluten as the problem *per se*. I listed a bunch of reasons that may

account for why gluten may more of an be an issue today, and I warned

about taking a categorical approach to the whole issue as if avoiding

it was the end of the matter, especially in light of the practice of

some of Price's primitives.

I was duly chastised as a jerk know it all, a person defending gluten,

uneducated about the issues, and even a " wheat apologist. " Yet nowhere

in my post (s) did I ever suggest gluten intolerance wasn't a problem.

I firmly believe it is. But I did and still think that many of the

strong categorical statements made about gluten are wrong and an

overreaction.

Yet to read some of the responses you would think some didn't read my

post at all. It took Suze to point out that I wasn't saying gluten

intolerance wasn't an issue or somehow defending gluten. But I thought

the reaction was interesting and telling.

Can gluten be handled? The prima facie evidence is yes. When Price's

primitives ferment their grains/breads for two weeks, and we already

know long ferments DISABLE the problematic aspects of gluten, that

tells us something.

Now we have a study that demonstrates that gluten might be disabled in

as little as 24 hours. Also when someone can immediately go from being

symptomatic to nonsymptomatic by just changing over to a long

fermented bread, then clearly *something* has changed, whether or not

all the gluten has been disabled (and it most likely has). So the idea

that gluten can't be coped with within the Price paradigm other than

abandoning it is ridiculous.

In fact, *in principle* the issue is over. We know gluten can

disabled. All the issues and caveats that people raise are just a

matter of working things out in your own particular situation (which

may mean never touching it again) or a stubborn defense of a rapidly

weakening position (if intolerant, you can never touch the stuff

again). I'm fully supportive of the idea of wanting to be sure that

what one eats is actually free of the *problematic* stuff if one is

GI, although it would be a very safe bet that it is gone somewhere

between 24 hours and two weeks, but I'm highly resistant to the idea

that this should be glossed over or simply ignored (the ability to

disable gluten and the other issues I raised), which is what seemed to

be happening until I brought it up.

I also think its silly to think that someone who doesn't take the

" never touch it again " approach is uneducated or unfamilar with the

issue, i.e. a gluten idiot.

And since when does proper preparation in the WAP paradigm make one an

" apologist " for a food? What did Suze say, butter is not butter, beer

is not beer, milk is not milk, which is just to say we work to acquire

and prepare high quality foods fit for consumption. Since when is that

a bad thing and why would gluten grains be an exception?

Price's primitives went out of their way to procure certain foods AND

went out of their way to prepare certain foods, like rye, a gluten

grain. How does pointing that out make me a " wheat apologist " ? In that

case, I'm an apologist for all the foods that are a part of this

paradigm since acquiring them isn't always easy for most of us.

And it doesn't matter whether Price himself knew of the issue of

gluten, he obviously did not, but he was passing on for the

generations that would follow the wisdom of his groups, not his own,

and I doubt they knew anything about a whole lot of things we talk

about in scientific terms today, but their *practices* nonetheless are

able to cope with our modern day issues. After all, that is ultimately

what native nutrition is all about.

Same goes for casein intolerance. I think your doctor is wrong about

all milk being the same regardless of the animal. It is another

categorical statement not borne out both by the experience of many and

current research. Such an approach is way too simplistic, IMO. There

are so many variables in milk to be making such statements. Nor should

it be lost on us that Price's primitives drank fermented milk from

high quality soil from animals generally different from the type many

of us get milk from today. So again, its ridiculous to think that

Price's paradigm can't deal with the problem of casein intolerance

except by abstinence.

That is not to say certain individuals don't need to give up gluten

and casein for all time, but it is to say that is not reflective of

some deficiency in WAP that isn't adequate to address our times.

So yes, I stand by my " pitch " to Chris. He may or may not be able to

turn his gluten gene off, but whether or not he does has no bearing on

whether he will have to abandon gluten forever. And his problem with

casein NOW has no bearing on his ability to handle it in the future.

And if he ever gets to the point of overcoming those two things, he

ought to celebrate with a cigar <g>

[Guest guest]

>

>Can anyone on the list tell me what proteins the HLA genes code for

>and what the functions of those proteins are before I can find out for

>myself?

>

No, but back on topic: how long were you breathing in concrete dust at

your former job? It dawned on my that you may need to rest your lungs

for a time, regardless of your feelings on smoking long term. Fasts are

great, but you did one recently. It is my gut feeling that you need to

make mid term tweaks to your lifestyle that will last longer than a

fasting period. Besides, a fast can be a means to commit to longer

lasting change. Certainly it can't be beneficial to your health to stop

everything for a healing period, only to continue the offensive on the

breakfast. I will remark in a new thread on my caffeine withdrawals.

But right now, let me thank you from the bottom of my heart for ranting

on about caffeine, even when I didn't want to let down the smoking

subject. You have helped me tremendously in your stubborn

perseverance. I hope I can do the same for you.

Rechaka,

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>Here's a test or one's presence or lack of education about gluten intolerance:

>

>Can anyone on the list tell me what proteins the HLA genes code for

>and what the functions of those proteins are before I can find out for

>myself?

>

>Just a pop quiz that I would consider a basic indicator of whether or

>not someone is educated about gluten intolerance. " We don't know yet "

>would be an acceptable answer.

>

>Chris

>

>

Sure, throw out a pop quiz while the professor is away! :-)

I'm sure I'm not the best person to answer, but basically Dr. Fine (at

least he's the one who mostly tests for them, if not the one who figured

it out) figured out the people who tested positive for IgA allergies to

gluten (gliadin?) tended to have certain genes. You should be able to

read more about it at his sites: enterolab.com or finerhealth.com

Here's one excerpt:

" What role does genetic testing play in the diagnosis of gluten sensitivity?

Currently, tests are available to detect the genes that control the

immune system's reaction to gluten. These genes are called human

leukocyte antigens or HLA. There are several types of HLA genes within

each person. It is a particular type called HLA-DQ that is most useful

in the assessment of the probability that a person may be gluten

sensitive. The reason gene testing assesses probability rather than

disease itself is because some people have the genes for gluten

sensitivity but have no detectable evidence of the immune reaction to

gluten or have no symptoms. In such people, gluten sensitivity is still

possible but the probability (or in other words the chances or the odds)

is lower than in a person who may be having symptoms attributable to

gluten or that has antibodies detected. HLA testing is most useful when

there is diagnostic confusion about whether or not a person is gluten

sensitive. Such confusion often stems from one of the following:

atypical intestinal biopsy results, the presence of associated diseases

(such as microscopic colitis) that may mask the expected improvement of

symptoms when gluten is withdrawn from the diet, negative tests for

gluten antibodies in the midst of suggestive symptoms or signs of gluten

sensitivity or celiac sprue (see the paragraph below to understand the

difference), or when there are no symptoms at all and the person or the

doctor can hardly believe that gluten sensitivity is really present.

Other situations that HLA testing is useful is when a person is already

on a gluten-free diet, and for testing family members (particularly

children) for the odds that they have or will develop gluten sensitivity. "

Does that answer the question? You tend to run way over my head with

your research. :-)

Steph

[Guest guest]

Robin Ann,

Oh how I want to abbreviate to RA, but that would make you an Egyptian

Sun god.

> I too have hypochlorydia from a h. pylori caused ulcer that put a hole in

>my stomach and blocked my stomach canal. Antibiotics rid me of the bacterial

>infection and a recent biopsy shows that my stomach looks normal (yet the

>cells still do not make acid). Taking HCl and enzymes has allowed me to gain

>back the 20 pounds I lost in a month after the ulcer triggered what my

>doctored called " classic celiac syndrome " . In the past month since also

>eliminating milk from my diet, I've become well enough to start working out

>again and my muscles are coming back nicely. I have virtually no stomach

>bloating, no gas or belching, and I feel an optimal healthy state is right

>around the corner.

>

>

Twenty pounds in a month! You just keep on, just like Heidi does. This

information is helpful. Not to me - I got lucky probably when ds went

GF mostly we did too - but to others this progression description might

raise flags. I am glad you are on the mend. And thanks for holding

Helga's sorghum breadstick while she's been away.

> I'd never heard of gluten until a couple months ago when everyone was

>kidding Heidi about it. It was pure coincidence that I visited my new G.I.

>around that time. In the past couple months I've read a lot of scientific

>literature about it including Marsh M.D. " Celiac Disease " textbook

>for medical schools. " Dangerous Grains " is a good book for general

>information.

>

>

Well, I guess it was meant to be. You said you used to laugh about it

all too, eh?

> This is not a fad thing. I rarely wrote to your message group but when I

>noticed that was having *exactly* the same problems I'd been having I

>thought I'd offer my own experience and of course, you guys can do with it

>as you like.

>

See, this is why it is good you share. And get used to it RA, people

still give our Heidi Goddessness a bad time. Were she here ...

>I'm happy to know what the cause was for me because I'm looking

>forawrd to getting back to a life that isn't centered around food

>discussions on message boards.

>

They are still helpful though, even when well. The bumps on the arms

and CLO connection I constantly need to hear so that I will remember to

take and give it to my family. Even though I am relatively well, I

still gain so much from reading. And if I could ever shut up, I'd learn

even more, heeee.

> Unless, you and and others take the time to actually read some of

>the scientific literature on gluten-intolerance, common courtesy (and common

>sense!)dictates that maybe you should keep your uninformed views to

>yourselves. Put views out there that are based on some sort of science and

>maybe I or others will take the time to respond but this sort of crackpot

>put-down comment toward an illness that affects a lot of people is

>irresponsible and doesn't reflect well on the group.

> I don't know and I don't know if has gluten-intolerance. I'm

>pretty sure he's allergic to milk because of his comments and if I were him

>I'd try to go gluten-free for awhile to see if that helps. I think it will

>but, hey, maybe it won't.

> If he IS gluten-intolerant, then there IS a magic bullet: It is removing

>gluten (and at least temporarily casein). Easiest damn thing you can ever do

>-- just stop eating the stuff.

>

Oooo yeah! And don't forget, she's a martial artist! Take that!

Regarding his loose stools make me think caffeine and/or nicotine

as possible culprits too. But unless he can do some sort of elimination

diet, he'll probably never know for sure what is what. Fasting it all

out and adding it all back tells nothing. Study yourself and do

share the results with us.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>

>It seems to me that frequently when someone suggests that gluten might

>possibly be *handled* by someone who is gluten intolerant, there is an

>aggressive reaction by some GF'ers to the whole concept. I might be

>wrong but that is my perception.

>

>

>

>

>

>

I think the reason for this is that so many SADers think that someone

can give up gluten for a few years and then go back to eating it (not

properly prepared). So many times, people IRL have told me that their

kids used to have problems with gluten that they've " grown out of. "

Just because someone isn't having an obvious reaction to gluten doesn't

mean it's not doing damage and these celiac kids are now gluten eating

adults when there is no known cure for celiac (other than not eating

gluten). So, IMO, that's why we have this kneejerk reaction to jump

back at anyone who says going back to gluten may be okay. Yes, it may

be okay, but it may not and people need to know that there is that

possibility of never eating gluten again.

It's also much more common in the circles we move in in real life to

have to deal with uninformed people and we are constantly having to

explain that even a little gluten is NOT okay. It gets very

frustrating, to be honest. We have to bake our kids special foods

wherever we go so they don't feel left out. We've had to deal with

serious health issues and sometimes infertility and miscarriages. Most

of us have completely screwed up hormones and most of our glands are

shot. Also, for healing, it seems that every single possible trace of

gluten has to be eliminated from the diet for some time.

So, you can imagine that the whole issue is tied up with emotion. :-)

Also, WRT primitives handling gluten grains - those were grains with 2-3

% gluten, whereas Canadian hard winter wheat has up to 50% gluten. So,

imagine taking rye with 2% gluten and soaking it for 2 weeks, versus

modern wheat with 50% gluten and soaking it for 24 hours. You've got 2

vastly different products there. I have to imagine that I'd have no

trouble handling the former, but I could even be wrong there.

Steph

[Guest guest]

>Next time you want to know something that *I* know... hmph!

>

>:-)

>

And here's what Dr. Ken says to *you*, Mr. M. He's is such a great

chapter leader and so generous with his time. I posted that protocol

yesterday under " Adrenal Exhaustion " and I happen to have some tea from

the oriental market just like he mentions. I used some today. If you

want more from him, he is on chapter leaders list. Please ask as you

find need.

Deanna

> *Basically your friend has burned out adrenals and he is using the

> caffeine and nicotine as temporary fixes to make him feel good.

> Nicotine stimulates the release of sugar from the muscle tissues,

> thereby temporarily making him feel good. The caffeine whips the

> adrenals, on the other hand to give him some energy. The adrenal

> protocol would be of great benefit, but without testing I would be

> guessing on some of the supplements. Korean Ginseng from MediHerb is

> a good adrenal tonic and I have had a patient use Green tea with the

> High Grade licorice and some Korean Ginseng added to the tea. The

> only caution is many tend to over do the Ginseng as it makes them feel

> so good and that can do more harm than good. If he has health

> insurance that allows him to see patients out of network, we will be

> glad to try and work with him on the testing. If not, then if he

> wants to try the supplements, I will make the best educated guess I

> can on which ones he needs. Let me know if you have any further

> qeustions.*

> **

> *Dr. *

>

[Guest guest]

> Gluten can't be an autoimmune illness itself-- it's a protein. If it

> triggers an autoimmune illness, it would have to do so through a

> system that I think we could at least loosely refer to as an " allergy "

> or an " allergic response. " I was under the impression that gluten

> would first elicit an immune reaction against itself, which would not

> be an autoimmune disease, before it could result in an immune reaction

> against endogenous tissues, which would.

Here's NIDDK on celiac http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/celiac/

>

>

> It's much closer to an " allergy " type phenomenon, I think, than it is

> analogous to a " poison " phenomenon. If an immune reaction to gluten

> makes gluten a " poison, " then that would mean that an autoimmune

> reaction to your thyroid or pancreas tissue would make your thyroid a

> " poison " and your pancreas a " poison. "

More like whatever organ is the enemy to be attacked as foreign.

> Can anyone on the list tell me what proteins the HLA genes code for

> and what the functions of those proteins are before I can find out for

> myself?

I'm not big on the genetics as the research puts HLA common to

Northern European ancestry. Does that mean originating from, most

prevalent or just that the research looks in Europe and the U.S.? The

world statistcs of celiac are more info

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/celiac_disease/intro.htm

Those genes go to all continents " if " it is purely genetic.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

>

> > Can anyone on the list tell me what proteins the HLA genes code for

> > > and what the functions of those proteins are before I can find out for

> > > myself?

> >

> > I'm not big on the genetics as the research puts HLA common to

> > Northern European ancestry. Does that mean originating from, most

> > prevalent or just that the research looks in Europe and the U.S.? The

> > world statistcs of celiac are more info

> > http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/celiac_disease/intro.htm

> > Those genes go to all continents " if " it is purely genetic.

> > Wanita

>

> Hi Wanita, I think that there are probably other gene markers (but don't

know!) as celiac is apparently quite prevalent in Native American and

Australian Aborigines populations as well as the Northern European and

Irish, ish and English populations that have been studied.

Also, keep in mind, in my arguments I've been using myself as an example

and I am what's called a classic celiac but there are many more types of

gluten intolerance in between.. In fact there is a push to change the name

of celiac to something that encompasses all the forms. I just used my case

as an example 'cuz it's what I know best right now..

~Robin Ann

[Guest guest]

On 7/29/05, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> On 7/29/05, Deanna Wagner <hl@...> wrote:

>

> > And here's what Dr. Ken says to *you*, Mr. M.

>

> Thanks, Deanna. I don't have health insurance right now. I figure

> I'll try the ginseng etc, and see from there. Should I wait till

> after the fast to use ginseng, or is it ok to use during a fast?

> ?

>

> Chris

Oh ginseng is fine during a fast. Most herbals are. It may even be in

one of the formulas I recommended to you off list. I failed to

recommend the formula for brain fog so I will shoot you an email about

that. And fasting is great for the adrenals so you will be getting a

double whammy. While herb teas and tinctures are okay, I would be

cautious of any fractionated supplement while liquid fasting. I would

wait to start eating before adding anything like that.

And I would definitely stay away from any kind of protein supplement.

If your body has to " work " to digest anything while liquid fasting, it

will be a miserable fast because you will get hungry in the midst of

it. One of the things that makes liquid fasting reasonable is that

after a few days you really don't get hungry and if you do drinking

liquids usually sends the hunger away.

[Guest guest]

On 7/29/05, Robin Ann <grainwreck@...> wrote:

> So I'm not upset or anything. It's just that enough has been said on

> this list about this gluten-thing already. Please, one of you guys,

> or , read Dangerous Grains so we're all on the

> same page with the basic information at least. It's short and quite

> well-written. It'll give you the basic deal so even if you think

> it's a bunch of junk you'll have your facts right.. I'll send you my

> copy.

The more we get into this the more you are losing me. I'm pretty sure

both and have read Dangerous Grains and I read a good chunk

of it while visiting Suze last year. I think we all have the same

basic info.

Plus I have been reading Heidi's posts to this list for years about

gluten. I rarely participated in the threads only because it wasn't on

my own personal radar screen.

> If you say gluten is no big deal, fine but back it up.

And who, pray tel, has said gluten is no big deal???????????????

> When it

> comes to gluten there seems to be a personal bias on this list

> against celiac.. I've only had it a couple months and already I'm

> pretty sick of it. Instead of every post being 500 words about what

> someone thinks and feels, how about some succinct pithy stuff

> occasionally, with cites.

I'm thinking you are misreading/misinterpreting posts. There are lots

of independent thinkers here who question and challenge and don't

automatically by off on something, but just emoting without cause? I

don't think so.

For one cite, Suze posted a study about the disabling of the

*allergenic* properties of gliadin on the GFCFNN list. She got that

study from me. And that wasn't dealing with low gluten rye but rather

high gluten modern wheat.

And then there is the sticky little problem of Price's observations.

> I know there's a GFCFNN group but the reason Celiac keeps coming up

> on this list is because most of the people here seem to have

> digestive ailments. Although there are (of course!) many causes of

> these digestive problems, gluten has been found time and again to be

> hiding behind many of them.

I don't disagree.

> The other reason that people with digestive problems should at least

> entertain the notion that gluten *might* be behind their problems is

> that it is so easy to find out about and to fix: You just don't eat

> the stuff. The villi grow back every three days and so it doesn't

> take long to get the idea... It's just grains anyway so what's the

> big deal?

You know I'm tempted to write 500 words about what I think this

statement reveals :-)

I think it needs to classed with the " wheat apologist " comment from

Heidi. But it should be said that the healthiest group Price found was

eating seafood and grains as their staple foods.

> This is a big meat & veggie group so I don't understand

> the reasoning behind all the defense of wheat and so on

Who exactly is defending wheat?

> So again, I'm not mad. THIS IS MAD! :-) I just get as tired as all

> of you do about discussing this gluten stuff. It's a LOT more

> frustrating than the rather simple diet.

Personally I think your frustration is misguided.

the crackpot

[Guest guest]

Ataxia, neuropathy article

Gluten Sensitivity as a Neurological Illness

http://jnnp.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/72/5/560

Wanita