Re: Mold Free

February 26, 2007

Steve,

Mold toxins and allergens make people sick. Do you really think that removing the mold growth somehow removes all the toxins and allergens from the remediation and adjacent areas?

Toxins are sticky. They tend to stick around. It takes special efforts to return a mold contaminated place to like-new condition when an occupant is sensitive to mold toxins.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: "Mold Free"

,Hospitals have good reason to be concerned about infection control in high-risk patients. What is your reason for infection control?What pathogens are you trying to kill in your mold remediation procedures? I know of no guidelines that call for disinfection of mold. If you removed it, it's gone.Steve TemesIn a message dated 2/26/2007 6:05:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, garyrosen72652@ yahoo.com writes:

Carl, I forgot to mention ... hospitals use disinfectants and cleaners. Why? Because the alternative to not using them is that people get sicker than from any sensitivity to the disinfectants or cleaners. Lysol (the spray can type) is a quaternary ammonium (quat) based disinfectant in an alcohol base. The most popular (or maybe one of the most popular) hospital disinfectants is Sklar. This is the same formula as Lysol (in the spray can) except a slightly higher concentration of Quat. We actually use Sklar and not Lysol as it is a bit stronger and we can buy it a gallon at a time from the hospital supply distributor. Rosen

Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

February 26, 2007

,

Though you may have legitimate a path of

discovery don’t redirect the issues at hand. Take that up in another

subject. We are talking about your unacceptable remediation methods.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007

7:22 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: " Mold

Free "

,

Since you are S520 co-chair would you mind letting us know

why Bob Baker quit as Chair and what Grimes and Larkins complaints were about?

I read about them in IE Connections.

Something about ... may I quote: " Concerns of

dominance, undue influence and hidden influence have arisen " . And if

I may continue ... " conflicts of interest were presented ....

"

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free "

, Good for

you for trying to help this lady out with her health

too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die

from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was

surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested

very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every

day.

Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.

Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

--

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: 2/25/2007 3:16

PM

Get your own web address.

Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

Check out the

all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things

done faster.

February 26, 2007

:

I was invited to be a reviewer of the draft S520. After submitting my comments, I was contacted by a two (S520 committee) people who asked for clarification regarding several of my comments. After some time had passed, I contact these two persons to ask about the status of S520. What I heard was interesting and it included...undue influence by select individuals being overly dominant, i.e., “my way or the highway”, allegations of conflicts of interest, and persons resigning because of bullying by others who are not compromising. For all the good S520 had in it, albeit, there were some issues therein I took significant exception to, it seemed to have really caused some internal conflict and divisiveness within the reviewing committee. Oh how I wish I could have been a fly on the wall! I look forward to ’s response and hope it can be publicly posted.

And to ....Just why is the use of household cleaners for mold remediation jobs “insanity?” Lets see.....soap and water, bleach and water, ammonia and water.....all good household cleaners, all have proven track records, all are very effective in cleaning moldy surfaces, all are commonly used and with a high-degree of familiarity, and all are VERY inexpensive. This does not sound like insanity to me! Moreover, this is one of the issues I took exception with regarding S520, i.e., the lack of practicality.

For what it is worth...

,

Since you are S520 co-chair would you mind letting us know why Bob Baker quit as Chair and what Grimes and Larkins complaints were about? I read about them in IE Connections.

Something about ... may I quote: " Concerns of dominance, undue influence and hidden influence have arisen " . And if I may continue ... " conflicts of interest were presented .... "

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com <http://www.Mold-Books.com>

RE: " Mold Free "

-

I have been watching your posts for a while now, and just wanted to chirp in, because I don’t know how much more of this I can take. With all due respect, I am baffled how a person can say they do so many mold remediation jobs but yet you spend (It seems to me) all day long posting, posting and posting on this damn site. I mean every day you must post 5-6 times. My company stays busy all day long and I just don’t know where (if you were as busy as you say you are) you find the time to sit in front of your computer and just type and type, instead of being in the field working or at least managing projects.

ly, I find your remediation techniques appalling. You sit there and quote the S-520 all day long about conditions 1,2, and 3 and the fact that you do not have to get a third party consultant to either, define or write a scope of work or even better perform post validation sampling on your jobs because 1, there is not enough money in the job for a consultant (Only enough $ for You) or because the S-520 say’s you don’t have to.. This is completely Insane !!! Now, don’t get me wrong, I understand that there are some small projects out there that a consultant is not necessary, due to the size of the potentially effected area, or in cases of Emergency water loss jobs due to time constraints. But, having said that, I would still get a third party to sign off on the project to potentially reduce my liability if a problem were to occur down the road. I know, I know your such a good remediator that this would never happen to you. Is this because you perform your own Clearance or Post Remediation Validation sampling? I would be willing to bet that if you had a third party consultant like lets say a Armour, or another credible consultant who has a ton of knowledge and common sense in this industry performing your posts tests that you would probably fail over half the time or be kicked off the project immediately. Especially, if he found out that you were using household cleaners on your projects like Lysol and Tilex for chemically intolerant clients. Are you kidding me??? I guess you get away with a lot more in Florida, because if you tried to get away with that in California, you would probably end up in court on just about every project.

As a Co-Chairman of the S-520, which you tend to quote all the time, I can guarantee that no where in the document it says, go ahead and use “Household cleaners” for mold remediation jobs. Again, this is Insanity!! BTW, to respond to your comments below regarding the IESO Standards. You are correct that 10x is the standard IESO uses for initial assessments, but these numbers are a rough estimation for identifying a potentially amplified site. No Where in the IESO document does it say that these are standards for “post remediation sampling” as they have not been defined yet according to the powers that be at IESO.

February 26, 2007

A well stated and very valid post, . Thanks for expressing your

positions.

Chuck Reaney

To: <iequality >

Date sent: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:38:54 -0800

Subject: RE: " Mold Free "

Send reply to: iequality

-

I have been watching your posts for a while now, and just wanted to

chirp in, because I don't know how much more of this I can take. With

all due respect, I am baffled how a person can say they do so many

mold remediation jobs but yet you spend (It seems to me) all day long

posting, posting and posting on this damn site. I mean every day you

must post 5-6 times. My company stays busy all day long and I just

don't know where (if you were as busy as you say you are) you find the

time to sit in front of your computer and just type and type, instead

of being in the field working or at least managing projects.

ly, I find your remediation techniques appalling. You sit there

and quote the S-520 all day long about conditions 1,2, and 3 and the

fact that you do not have to get a third party consultant to either,

define or write a scope of work or even better perform post validation

sampling on your jobs because 1, there is not enough money in the job

for a consultant (Only enough $ for You) or because the S-520 say's

you don't have to.. This is completely Insane !!! Now, don't get me

wrong, I understand that there are some small projects out there that

a consultant is not necessary, due to the size of the potentially

effected area, or in cases of Emergency water loss jobs due to time

constraints. But, having said that, I would still get a third party to

sign off on the project to potentially reduce my liability if a

problem were to occur down the road. I know, I know your such a good

remediator that this would never happen to you. Is this because you

perform your own Clearance or Post Remediation Validation sampling?

I

would be willing to bet that if you had a third party consultant like

lets say a Armour, or another credible consultant who has a ton

of knowledge and common sense in this industry performing your

posts

tests that you would probably fail over half the time or be kicked off

the project immediately. Especially, if he found out that you were

using household cleaners on your projects like Lysol and Tilex for

chemically intolerant clients. Are you kidding me??? I guess you get

away with a lot more in Florida, because if you tried to get away with

that in California, you would probably end up in court on just about

every project.

As a Co-Chairman of the S-520, which you tend to quote all the time, I

can guarantee that no where in the document it says, go ahead and

use

" Household cleaners " for mold remediation jobs. Again, this is

Insanity!! BTW, to respond to your comments below regarding the

IESO

Standards. You are correct that 10x is the standard IESO uses for

initial assessments, but these numbers are a rough estimation for

identifying a potentially amplified site. No Where in the IESO

document does it say that these are standards for " post remediation

sampling " as they have not been defined yet according to the powers

that be at IESO.

Re: " Mold Free "

Ken,

What are your criteria for failing a house based on air samples? Is

it total numbers (quantitative) or is it a combination of total plus

types of spores?

At what threshold do you fail a job?

When you write a protocol for remediating a moldy wall and then the

house fails because there is significant but lesser mold problem in

the AC plenum. How do you handle this? Who pays for you to come

out

again?

When you fail a job how successful are you at getting the remediator

to pay the cost for you to come back again and retest?

For us about 10% of the time we have to go back and fix someting and

don't make $$ on the job. Ken, the reason I ask the questions above

is that I find that consultants (often but of course not always) have

very lax criteria for passing a house. And we are much more strict.

A while back someone pooh poohed the IESO testing standard. I

stood

up for it. Overall it is for the most part simply a listing of the

manufacturer's recommendations for the use of their sampling

products.

However they do have a nonsensical 10X number that they throw at

you.

Unless the count in a suspect area is 10x the control area you cannot

conclude that there is a problem. Of course 10x is too crude to use

for decision making.

What do you use?

Rosen

www.Mold-Books. <http://www.Mold-Books.com> com

Re: " Mold Free "

, Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health

too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die from

treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was surgically

removed and moved to healthier environment which tested very low on

mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every day.

_____

Sucker-punch spam

<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49981/*http:/advision.webevents.yahoo.co

m/

ma ilbeta/features_spam.html> with award-winning protection. Try the

free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49981/*http:/advision.webevents.yahoo.co

m/

ma ilbeta/features_spam.html>

--

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date:

2/25/2007 3:16 PM

_____

Get

<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49678/*http:/smallbusiness.yahoo.com/do

mai

ns /?p=BESTDEAL> your own web address. Have a HUGE year

through

Yahoo! Small Business.

February 27, 2007

I find my clients are very comfortable when we show them that the products we use are EPA approved for household use.

EPA does not approve products for their use. They are registered for specific applications.

Where/when does EPA recommend the use of household bleach (or Tilex) for mold remediation?

Steve Temes

February 27, 2007

,

Try sanding.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ] On Behalf

Of gary

rosen

Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007

10:02 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: " Mold

Free "

Carl,

Many common disinfectants kill mold but leave the toxins

and allergens and mold spores. Strong bleach destroys the mold, mold

toxins, allergens, and spores along with mites and their allergenic feces,

insects and bacteria and the toxins they contain. What else can do that?

I am not saying that disinfecting is the main approach to

remediation. As a contractor we remove problem materials and replace with new.

But wood structural members cannot easily be replaced and they need to be

brought to like-new condition.

What do you recommend to bring wood structural members to

like-new condition?

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free "

> >

> > Thanks Amy,

> >

> > I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold

> > sensitive... . perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't

> > want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work

> too

> > high.

> >

> > Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work

> should

> > be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment,

> > Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful

work

> > with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such people

> > have limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of sensitive

> > people with their special requirements. Our firm does the

> assessment,

> > remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of

> supply

> > and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can

> > be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a

> > good job.

> >

> > We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new.

> We

> > are very careful to investigate and find solutions forproblems with

> > HVAC systems and ducting. And we only use household cleaners such

> as

> > Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that

> > sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we

> > always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an

> > unconditional 1 year warranty on the work.

> >

> > Of coursehaving a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books

> > on mold does help with the group of clients!

> >

> > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > www.Mold-Books. com

> >

> > ----- Original Message ----

> > From: barb1283 <barb1283yahoo (DOT) com>

> > To: iequality@yahoogrou ps.com

> & g Release Date:

> > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

> >

>

> Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

>

Everyone is raving about the

all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

February 27, 2007

Bob/Ma:

“WE” are not talking about ’s unacceptable remediation methods....YOU are! I, for one, agree with a lot of what says and does. Don’t put words into other people’s mouths!! Bob, you are not a licensed contractor and based on many of your comments you appear to have very little building experience or knowledge of building assemblies. Don’t bash because of your inexperience. is providing a service within his area of expertise. At times he may be boasting or he may be overstating things, but his methods appear to be sound and he appears to have many repeat clients that trust him and appreciate his work. That says a lot! You on the other hand seem to be incensed with ’s successes because he is doing things differently than what you would do. You are not the Holly Grail of remediation!

,

Though you may have legitimate a path of discovery don’t redirect the issues at hand. Take that up in another subject. We are talking about your unacceptable remediation methods.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 7:22 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: " Mold Free "

,

Since you are S520 co-chair would you mind letting us know why Bob Baker quit as Chair and what Grimes and Larkins complaints were about? I read about them in IE Connections.

Something about ... may I quote: " Concerns of dominance, undue influence and hidden influence have arisen " . And if I may continue ... " conflicts of interest were presented .... "

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com <http://www.Mold-Books.com>

Re: " Mold Free "

Ken,

What are your criteria for failing a house based on air samples? Is it total numbers (quantitative) or is it a combination of total plus types of spores?

At what threshold do you fail a job?

When you write a protocol for remediating a moldy wall and then the house fails because there is significant but lesser mold problem in the AC plenum. How do you handle this? Who pays for you to come out again?

When you fail a job how successful are you at getting the remediator to pay the cost for you to come back again and retest?

For us about 10% of the time we have to go back and fix someting and don't make $$ on the job. Ken, the reason I ask the questions above is that I find that consultants (often but of course not always) have very lax criteria for passing a house. And we are much more strict.

A while back someone pooh poohed the IESO testing standard. I stood up for it. Overall it is for the most part simply a listing of the manufacturer' s recommendations for the use of their sampling products. However they do have a nonsensical 10X number that they throw at you. Unless the count in a suspect area is 10x the control area you cannot conclude that there is a problem. Of course 10x is too crude to use for decision making.

What do you use?

Rosen

www.Mold-Books. com <http://www.mold-books.com/>

February 27, 2007

Bob/Ma:

“WE” are not talking about ’s unacceptable remediation methods....YOU are! I, for one, agree with a lot of what says and does. Don’t put words into other people’s mouths!! Bob, you are not a licensed contractor and based on many of your comments you appear to have very little building experience or knowledge of building assemblies. Don’t bash because of your inexperience. is providing a service within his area of expertise. At times he may be boasting or he may be overstating things, but his methods appear to be sound and he appears to have many repeat clients that trust him and appreciate his work. That says a lot! You on the other hand seem to be incensed with ’s successes because he is doing things differently than what you would do. You are not the Holly Grail of remediation!

,

Though you may have legitimate a path of discovery don’t redirect the issues at hand. Take that up in another subject. We are talking about your unacceptable remediation methods.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 7:22 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: " Mold Free "

,

Since you are S520 co-chair would you mind letting us know why Bob Baker quit as Chair and what Grimes and Larkins complaints were about? I read about them in IE Connections.

Something about ... may I quote: " Concerns of dominance, undue influence and hidden influence have arisen " . And if I may continue ... " conflicts of interest were presented .... "

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com <http://www.Mold-Books.com>

Re: " Mold Free "

Ken,

What are your criteria for failing a house based on air samples? Is it total numbers (quantitative) or is it a combination of total plus types of spores?

At what threshold do you fail a job?

When you write a protocol for remediating a moldy wall and then the house fails because there is significant but lesser mold problem in the AC plenum. How do you handle this? Who pays for you to come out again?

When you fail a job how successful are you at getting the remediator to pay the cost for you to come back again and retest?

For us about 10% of the time we have to go back and fix someting and don't make $$ on the job. Ken, the reason I ask the questions above is that I find that consultants (often but of course not always) have very lax criteria for passing a house. And we are much more strict.

A while back someone pooh poohed the IESO testing standard. I stood up for it. Overall it is for the most part simply a listing of the manufacturer' s recommendations for the use of their sampling products. However they do have a nonsensical 10X number that they throw at you. Unless the count in a suspect area is 10x the control area you cannot conclude that there is a problem. Of course 10x is too crude to use for decision making.

What do you use?

Rosen

www.Mold-Books. com <http://www.mold-books.com/>

February 27, 2007

Bob,

Please go back and check out what Moffet said about sanding. Dry sanding is the worst thing to do.

Also, according to NYC guidelines such techniques automatically move a small job to Level IV.

Actually I keep all of 's words of wisdom and I reproduce his posting below:

In regard to sanding wood as a valid procedure during mold remediation the following words of caution were given by Moffett on a iequality on Nov 22, 2006

In my role as an industrial hygienist and EPA professional, there are two main concerns with sanding wood: First and most important, worker exposure when cutting or sanding chemically treated lumber; Second, some chemical properties may actually be permanently removed by sanding pressure treated and non-pressure treated lumber.

1. EPA and NIOSH find that workers exposed to chemically treated lumber may experience signs of adverse health effects. From rashes on hands and arms to respiratory distress when cutting or sanding chemically treated lumber. Depending on the type of lumber, meaning solid wood, plywood, particleboard and other composite woods, and the chemicals applied … the actual degree of health effects can vary.

a. Some chemical agents of interest include: Phosphates, melamine, dicyandiamide, formaldehyde, arsenic (chromium or chromated copper arsenate (CCA)), ammonium copper quat (AQC), creosote, pentachlorophenol (PCP), to name a few. In older applications such as in the 1940’s, lead-base paint to asbestos may be found on some lumber.

2. There are three primary purposes for chemically treated lumber: Pesticide, Fungicide and Fire-retardant. All three products are designed for long-term use, which is generally the life of the product. However, direct contact with water over time can degrade and even neutralize some of the surface and impregnated properties to even compromising the non-combustion properties of fire-retardant wood and their status as a regulated FRX™ FRT™ and FRTW™ building code product requirements that are outlined in part in ASTM D-2898. A protective barrier, generally found on outside lumber may include a product similar to Encapsulguard™ that does not dry hard and maintains a rubbery-like coating.

Bottom line: Sanding or cutting chemically treated wood is hazardous and requires special worker precautions; and removing certain finishes may void product manufacturer warrantees as well as cause the product to no longer be in code compliance.

Re: " Mold Free"> > > > Thanks Amy,> > > > I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold > > sensitive... . perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't > > want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work >

too > > high. > > > > Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work > should > > be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment, > > Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful work > > with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such people > > have limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of sensitive > > people with their special requirements. Our firm does the > assessment, > > remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of > supply > > and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can > > be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a > > good job.> > > > We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new. > We > > are very careful to investigate and

find solutions forproblems with > > HVAC systems and ducting. And we only use household cleaners such > as > > Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that > > sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we > > always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an > > unconditional 1 year warranty on the work. > > > > Of coursehaving a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books > > on mold does help with the group of clients! > > > > Rosen, Ph.D.> > www.Mold-Books. com> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: barb1283 <barb1283yahoo (DOT) com>> > To: iequality@yahoogrou ps.com> & g Release Date: > > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM> > > > > > > > > > >

> Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.> >

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.

February 27, 2007

you are scary... Perhaps you should read my earlier post.

Stacey Champion

>

> ,

>

> Since you are S520 co-chair would you mind letting us know why Bob

Baker quit as Chair and what Grimes and Larkins complaints were

about? I read about them in IE Connections.

>

> Something about ... may I quote: " Concerns of dominance, undue

influence and hidden influence have arisen " . And if I may

continue ... " conflicts of interest were presented .... "

>

> Rosen

> www.Mold-Books. com <http://www.Mold- Books.com>

>

> RE: " Mold Free "

>

> -

> I have been watching your posts for a while now, and just wanted

to chirp in, because I don't know how much more of this I can take.

With all due respect, I am baffled how a person can say they do so

many mold remediation jobs but yet you spend (It seems to me) all

day long posting, posting and posting on this damn site. I mean

every day you must post 5-6 times. My company stays busy all day

long and I just don't know where (if you were as busy as you say you

are) you find the time to sit in front of your computer and just

type and type, instead of being in the field working or at least

managing projects.

>

> ly, I find your remediation techniques appalling. You sit

there and quote the S-520 all day long about conditions 1,2, and 3

and the fact that you do not have to get a third party consultant to

either, define or write a scope of work or even better perform post

validation sampling on your jobs because 1, there is not enough

money in the job for a consultant (Only enough $ for You) or because

the S-520 say's you don't have to.. This is completely Insane !!!

Now, don't get me wrong, I understand that there are some small

projects out there that a consultant is not necessary, due to the

size of the potentially effected area, or in cases of Emergency

water loss jobs due to time constraints. But, having said that, I

would still get a third party to sign off on the project to

potentially reduce my liability if a problem were to occur down the

road. I know, I know your such a good remediator that this would

never happen to you. Is this because you perform your own

> Clearance or Post Remediation Validation sampling? I would be

willing to bet that if you had a third party consultant like lets

say a Armour, or another credible consultant who has a ton of

knowledge and common sense in this industry performing your posts

tests that you would probably fail over half the time or be kicked

off the project immediately. Especially, if he found out that you

were using household cleaners on your projects like Lysol and Tilex

for chemically intolerant clients. Are you kidding me??? I guess you

get away with a lot more in Florida , because if you tried to get

away with that in California , you would probably end up in court on

just about every project.

>

> As a Co-Chairman of the S-520, which you tend to quote all the

time, I can guarantee that no where in the document it says, go

ahead and use " Household cleaners " for mold remediation jobs. Again,

this is Insanity!! BTW, to respond to your comments below regarding

the IESO Standards. You are correct that 10x is the standard IESO

uses for initial assessments, but these numbers are a rough

estimation for identifying a potentially amplified site. No Where in

the IESO document does it say that these are standards for " post

remediation sampling " as they have not been defined yet according to

the powers that be at IESO.

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

> Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast

> with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.

> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather

>

February 27, 2007

,

Bleach again...ok...

As indicated previously, I surrender to your expertise on everything,

particularly on the universal usefulness of bleach. You wore me down.

You're the man, umm...the doktor.

In order to prove your points to the remaining multitudes of

nonbelievers, I submit to you the suggestion that you limit your diet to

foods prepared only with bleach. It would certainly kill everything

potentially problematic including, but not limited to, e. coli, salmonella,

camphylobacter, etc., among, hopefully, other annoying things.

To do this, although I apologize for my presumptious inferrial that I

posess any real bleach expertise, you may want to augment the dishes

with bleach gravy, bleach bernaise, bleach puddings, and other

creative recipes, in addition to preparing all of your main courses

utilizing soaking, basting or steaming with or in " strong bleach " .

According to your theories and practices I'm confident that this will

likely result in your becoming the most microbially unencumbered

person on the planet, which you can add to your already being the

most brilliant and capable. Who knows, this might lead to other, yet

undisclosed uses for strong bleach like bleach potpourri, bleach air

fresheners, or a combination bleach eye wash and toothpaste!

Then, once you've completed the extensive research and perfected the

recipes, there's the inevitable book deal for your cookbook, " Cooking

with Bleach " to further your fame & fortune.

Who knows? You may even end up (pun intended) getting a " Darwin

Award " !

Let us know how it goes!

Sincerely,

Chuck Reaney

Carl,

Many common disinfectants kill mold but leave the toxins and allergens

and mold spores. Strong bleach destroys the mold, mold toxins,

allergens, and spores along with mites and their allergenic feces,

insects and bacteria and the toxins they contain. What else can do

that?

I am not saying that disinfecting is the main approach to remediation.

As a contractor we remove problem materials and replace with new.

But

wood structural members cannot easily be replaced and they need to

be

brought to like-new condition.

What do you recommend to bring wood structural members to like-new

condition?

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free "

> >

> > Thanks Amy,

> >

> > I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold

> > sensitive... . perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't

> > want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work

> too

> > high.

> >

> > Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work

> should

> > be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment,

> > Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful work

> > with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such

> > people have limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of

> > sensitive people with their special requirements. Our firm does

> > the

> assessment,

> > remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of

> supply

> > and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can

> > be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a

> > good job.

> >

> > We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new.

> >

> We

> > are very careful to investigate and find solutions forproblems

> > with HVAC systems and ducting. And we only use household cleaners

> > such

> as

> > Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that

> > sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we

> > always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an

> > unconditional 1 year warranty on the work.

> >

> > Of coursehaving a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books

> > on mold does help with the group of clients!

> >

> > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > www.Mold-Books. com

> >

> > ----- Original Message ----

> > From: barb1283 <barb1283yahoo (DOT) com>

> > To: iequality@yahoogrou ps.com

> & g Release Date:

> > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

> >

>

> Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

>

________________________________________________________

______________

______________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with

the

latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.

http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121

February 27, 2007

,

you may jump in (although not

necessary): I agree with ’s presentation as a warning of sanding

under any conditions (not limited to mold alone) although you are not justified to say one may not

use sanding as a resource (or tool) for remediation purposes. Are you telling

me that you are concerned over sanding due to exposure(s)? You state you are

concerned over toxins residing in the environment if not cleaned.

Are you also insinuating that you do not

use PPE or require your techs to use PPE when remediation is ongoing? When

any properly trained tech is geared up to complete the remediation task ahead,

he/she should most certainly be wearing PPE (hands, body, and face) including performing

a respirator fit test (qualitative or quantitative methods). If the tech is

wearing PPE correctly [another reason for an IEP (fit testing)] exposure should

not be your reason for not sanding.

What you are really saying is you don’t

want to create any additional clean up which I can admire but not agree. There

are ways of conducting sanding with HEPA still admiring all precautions

offers. I agree that sanding will add or increase particulate in to the air

although I have not said that containment should not be utilized. I bet you do

not establish containment either as it takes to much time and money (if all

your jobs are limited to less than 10 sf).

I do agree with you that some

documents have challenges although that does not mean we throughout the baby

with the bath water. I still have not figured out how the EPA has trained mold

spores to be self contained if the square footage is below 10 SF (no

containment required). Or once it has been discovered that the SF-age has

increased above 10 SF (containment required) one suddenly should set-up

containment because the spores will disseminate (spores have most likely disseminated

into the surround area(s) due to vibration alone). Its not all what we might

hope for but at least the EPA has been moving forward and doing more than

others.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007

1:26 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: " Mold

Free "

Bob,

Please go back and check out what Moffet said

about sanding. Dry sanding is the worst thing to do.

Also, according to NYC guidelines such techniques automatically

move a small job to Level IV.

Actually I keep all of 's words of wisdom and I

reproduce his posting below:

In regard to sanding wood as a valid procedure during

mold remediation the following words of caution were given by Moffett

on a iequality

on Nov 22, 2006

In my

role as an industrial hygienist and EPA professional, there are two main

concerns with sanding wood: First and most important, worker exposure when

cutting or sanding chemically treated lumber; Second, some chemical properties

may actually be permanently removed by sanding pressure treated and

non-pressure treated lumber.

1.

EPA and NIOSH find that workers exposed to chemically treated lumber may

experience signs of adverse health effects. From rashes on hands and arms to

respiratory distress when cutting or sanding chemically treated lumber.

Depending on the type of lumber, meaning solid wood, plywood, particleboard and

other composite woods, and the chemicals applied … the actual degree of

health effects can vary.

a.

Some chemical agents of interest include: Phosphates, melamine, dicyandiamide,

formaldehyde, arsenic (chromium or chromated copper arsenate (CCA)), ammonium

copper quat (AQC), creosote, pentachlorophenol (PCP), to name a few. In older

applications such as in the 1940’s, lead-base paint to asbestos may be

found on some lumber.

2.

There are three primary purposes for chemically treated lumber: Pesticide,

Fungicide and Fire-retardant. All three products are designed for long-term

use, which is generally the life of the product. However, direct contact with

water over time can degrade and even neutralize some of the surface and

impregnated properties to even compromising the non-combustion properties of

fire-retardant wood and their status as a regulated FRX™ FRT™ and

FRTW™ building code product requirements that are outlined in part in

ASTM D-2898. A protective barrier, generally found on outside lumber may

include a product similar to Encapsulguard™ that does not dry hard and

maintains a rubbery-like coating.

Bottom

line: Sanding or cutting chemically treated wood is hazardous and requires

special worker precautions; and removing certain finishes may void product

manufacturer warrantees as well as cause the product to no longer be in code

compliance.

Re: " Mold Free "

> >

> > Thanks Amy,

> >

> > I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold

> > sensitive... . perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't

> > want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work

> too

> > high.

> >

> > Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work

> should

> > be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment,

> > Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful

work

> > with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such people

> > have limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of sensitive

> > people with their special requirements. Our firm does the

> assessment,

> > remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of

> supply

> > and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can

> > be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a

> > good job.

> >

> > We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new.

> We

> > are very careful to investigate and find solutions forproblems with

> > HVAC systems and ducting. And we only use household cleaners such

> as

> > Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that

> > sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we

> > always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an

> > unconditional 1 year warranty on the work.

> >

> > Of coursehaving a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books

> > on mold does help with the group of clients!

> >

> > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > www.Mold-Books. com

> >

> > ----- Original Message ----

> > From: barb1283 <barb1283yahoo (DOT) com>

> > To: iequality@yahoogrou ps.com

> & g Release Date:

> > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

> >

>

> Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

>

Everyone is raving

about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

Looking for earth-friendly autos?

Browse

Top Cars by " Green Rating " at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.

February 27, 2007

,

A disinfectant specifically kills

bacteria, not mold. I’m sure

that was just a slip on your terminology.

One can successfully clean mold without disinfection,

but not without cleaning. A mild

soap will usually suffice for the cleaner.

It is usually more a function of the person doing the cleaning and not

the cleaning agent.

Mark Doughty

Re: " Mold

Free "

Carl,

If you cannot use cleaners and

disinfectants then you can't do mold remediation work properly.

Remediations fail if not done thoroughly and people stay sick. So I tell

them up front in writing exactly what I will use.

If they want someone to do the

work and not use cleaners and disinfectants then they hire someone else.

Although I have had many, many say they are sensitive to Tilex (Bleach)

.... I've never

had someone say not to do the work.

They just let the house air out

before they come back. When we bleach moldy structural wood we paint with

an encapsulant and then the wall is rebuilt and the baseboards caulked.

There is very little smell. And whatever there is disipates fast.

The vast majority of sensitive

people are sensitive to mold toxins a whole lot more than Lysol and Tylex. The

mold toxins stay around if they are not cleaned as they are sticky. The

cleaners eventually air out.

There are some people so sensitive

to everything that you cannot do work on their house and instead they sell the

house.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free "

>

> , Good for you for trying to help this lady out with her health

> too. Doctors don't do much for cancer patients actually. Most die

> from treatment rather than cancer. I had cancer too which was

> surgically removed and moved to healthier environment which tested

> very low on mold and other contaminates and I feel healthier every

> day.

>

> Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.

> Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.

>

> --

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date:

> 2/25/2007 3:16 PM

>

Get

your own web address.

Have a HUGE year through Yahoo!

Small Business.

February 27, 2007

Steve,

>>EPA does not approve products for their use. They are registered for specific applications.

thanks. got it.

OSHA recommends bleach here.

http://www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_Hurricane_Facts/Bulletin3.pdf

CDC recommends bleach here:

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/disasters/floods/cleanupwater.asp

and

http://www.cdc.gov/mold/pdfs/stachy.pdf

EPA recommends bleach be used to clean the homes of immuno-compromised people page 15 in Mold, Moisture and Your Home.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: "Mold Free"

In a message dated 2/27/2007 1:17:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, garyrosen72652@ yahoo.com writes:

I find my clients are very comfortable when we show them that the products we use are EPA approved for household use.Where/when does EPA recommend the use of household bleach (or Tilex) for mold remediation?Steve Temes

Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends.

February 27, 2007

Steve,

>>EPA does not approve products for their use. They are registered for specific applications.

thanks. got it.

OSHA recommends bleach here.

http://www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_Hurricane_Facts/Bulletin3.pdf

CDC recommends bleach here:

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/disasters/floods/cleanupwater.asp

and

http://www.cdc.gov/mold/pdfs/stachy.pdf

EPA recommends bleach be used to clean the homes of immuno-compromised people page 15 in Mold, Moisture and Your Home.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: "Mold Free"

In a message dated 2/27/2007 1:17:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, garyrosen72652@ yahoo.com writes:

I find my clients are very comfortable when we show them that the products we use are EPA approved for household use.Where/when does EPA recommend the use of household bleach (or Tilex) for mold remediation?Steve Temes

Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends.

February 27, 2007

Bob,

HEPA filters do not effectively filter small mold micro-fragments. HEPA is only 99.97% effective down to .3 microns. In the mold remediation environment where there can be millions or billions of fragments that level of filtration will not work. Best to minimize fragments and best to suck the fragments outside rather than try to clean from the air.

We also use respirators but that is the secondary line of defense. The first is source control.

Note that fragments are NOT detected when sampling for spores. You will only "see" them if you take DNA (PCR) samples.

As mentioned, we always put up a zip wall containment for even the smallest jobs.

Bob, there are many good ways to mold remediate. I just explained how we do a typical job. But IMO there are no good reasons to dry sand wood which releases the toxins discussed and also releases the mold micro-fragments and their toxins.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free"> > > > Thanks Amy,> > > > I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold > > sensitive... . perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't > > want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work >

too > > high. > > > > Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work > should > > be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment, > > Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful work > > with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such people > > have limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of sensitive > > people with their special requirements. Our firm does the > assessment, > > remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of > supply > > and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can > > be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a > > good job.> > > > We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new. > We > > are very careful to investigate and

find solutions forproblems with > > HVAC systems and ducting. And we only use household cleaners such > as > > Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that > > sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we > > always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an > > unconditional 1 year warranty on the work. > > > > Of coursehaving a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books > > on mold does help with the group of clients! > > > > Rosen, Ph.D.> > www.Mold-Books. com> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: barb1283 <barb1283yahoo (DOT) com>> > To: iequality@yahoogrou ps.com> & g Release Date: > > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM> > > > > > > > > > >

> Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.> >

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center .

Never miss an email again!Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out.

February 27, 2007

Bob,

HEPA filters do not effectively filter small mold micro-fragments. HEPA is only 99.97% effective down to .3 microns. In the mold remediation environment where there can be millions or billions of fragments that level of filtration will not work. Best to minimize fragments and best to suck the fragments outside rather than try to clean from the air.

We also use respirators but that is the secondary line of defense. The first is source control.

Note that fragments are NOT detected when sampling for spores. You will only "see" them if you take DNA (PCR) samples.

As mentioned, we always put up a zip wall containment for even the smallest jobs.

Bob, there are many good ways to mold remediate. I just explained how we do a typical job. But IMO there are no good reasons to dry sand wood which releases the toxins discussed and also releases the mold micro-fragments and their toxins.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: " Mold Free"> > > > Thanks Amy,> > > > I get many clients that are chemically sensitive and mold > > sensitive... . perhaps 1/2 of my work. Most of my co-workers don't > > want to deal with them due to liability issues or they price work >

too > > high. > > > > Many people on this chat board argue that all remediation work > should > > be done by groups of people with separate specialties: Assessment, > > Remediation, HVAC & Reconstruction. I have found that careful work > > with one reponsible party (and good prices because many such people > > have limited funds) is the key to servicing this group of sensitive > > people with their special requirements. Our firm does the > assessment, > > remediation, post-remedation testing, sealing and cleaning of > supply > > and return air plenums and reconstruction all ourselves. So we can > > be very competitive on the price (when we have to) and still do a > > good job.> > > > We focus on removal of problem materials and replacement with new. > We > > are very careful to investigate and

find solutions forproblems with > > HVAC systems and ducting. And we only use household cleaners such > as > > Tilex and Lysol that do not leave any residues. We explain that > > sometimes the work and cleaning are an iterative process and we > > always follow up and return phone calls with advice and provide an > > unconditional 1 year warranty on the work. > > > > Of coursehaving a Ph.D. in Biochemistry and having written 5 books > > on mold does help with the group of clients! > > > > Rosen, Ph.D.> > www.Mold-Books. com> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: barb1283 <barb1283yahoo (DOT) com>> > To: iequality@yahoogrou ps.com> & g Release Date: > > 2/25/2007 3:16 PM> > > > > > > > > > >

> Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.> >

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center .

Never miss an email again!Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out.

February 27, 2007

,

What data can you present to affirm your

statement that the Tilex “kills” not only mold but “toxins”?

Or are you offering this statement as your opinion without support?

Also, did you remember Jim’s posting

concerning bleach? Jim, let me do it for you;

Jim wrote:

A

little history lesson here, to help you go out and find some better information

on the use of bleach in mold remediation.

Unfortunately

I was one of those who wrote, for consumers, that liquid chlorine beach was

useful in cleaning up mold (Clean Up Procedures for Mold In Houses, CMHC,

1991). I did not get anywhere near specific enough in the cautions, however,

nor in the absolute need for rinsing afterwards. Many users misused the

protocol and did things like spraying the bleach (much lung and eye irritation,

some very serious) and there were reports of ongoing irritation with the

bleached surfaces, where the now-dead mold released particulate into the air.

That particulate proved to be both allergenic and possibly toxigenic as well.

It seems that the bleach may have killed a fair bit if the mold, but did not

reduce its allergic or toxic characteristics enough to make it a good way to

deal with mold.

Other

groups copied the above document to suggest that liquid chlorine bleach

could/should be used during mold cleanup, most not improving on the detail

requirements for safe use and rinsing afterwards. Some of those documents remain

unchanged even now.

Several

" persons " (including government agencies and university groups and

contracted consultants) looked at what liquid chlorine bleach actually did and

how effective it was. Some of the findings were that the Ph of the bleach solution

was as important as the concentration, the dead mold material was still

allergenic and that the toxic properties of the mold material were not much

changed. This should have pretty much stopped the use of liquid chlorine bleach

as a " killer " of mold, but did not do so. Many still use it, usually

with little care and sometimes with a fair bit of damage to the user, even to

bystanders. Just because it is a household product does not make its more

generous use a safe practice!

I can

see one sometimes-useful use for liquid chlorine bleach in mold remediation; an

after treatment to return previously-cleaned surfaces like wood to a

pristine-looking condition. This allows the return of a mold growth to be

more-easily determined. It must be used with all of the care that its toxic

nature requires (including full skin and eye protection and properly-fitted

acid-gas cartridge respirators), however, and the surfaces must still be rinsed

and dried properly for this to be useful. Note that many molds will permanently

stain wood and the bleach treatment will not even work well in these cases.

Given these limitations, maybe the whole " use bleach to fix the

problem " idea should be put to rest for once and for all.

As I

have done before, I apologize to one and all for suggesting the use of bleach

in mold cleanup. It was a bad idea in that it can be done so badly in so many

ways. Please take it from me that you can almost never use it to your benefit.

Clean properly and stay away from toxic products!

So which is worst, sanding or bleach?

Besides at 4 to 8 ACH (as required) I have not seen sanding to be a problem.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007

12:32 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: " Mold

Free "

Bob,

You make a few good points.

1.) You always need to have good ventilation when

using bleach and/or use a a mask with filters that protects against bleach

fumes in addition to particulates.

2.) Soap and water can be a very good solution. The

main problems with soap are water for us are:

a.) We like to paint the structural wood with encapsulant

after cleaning. We have concerns about how well the paint will stick to

wood if there is a soap film left. It sticks fine if the wood is first

bleached.

b.) Soap and water cleaning result in more moisture

than misting with bleach.

Tilex is 50% bleach and 50% water. This dilution is

much easier to handle than straight bleach and still does an excellent job of

not only killing mold but toxins, allergens and other contaminants that always

accompany water damage such as mites, insects and toxin producing bacteria.

Tilex is used successfully by millions of households to

kill and remove mold in showers. It will do the same

anywhere else it is sprayed. Other disinfectants only kill but do not

remove and leave behind toxins.

I find my clients are very comfortable when we show them

that the products we use are EPA approved for household use.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

RE: " Mold Free "

-

I have been watching your posts for a while now, and just

wanted to chirp in, because I don’t know how much more of this I can

take. With all due respect, I am baffled how a person can say they do so many

mold remediation jobs but yet you spend (It seems to me) all day long posting,

posting and posting on this damn site. I mean every day you must post 5-6 times.

My company stays busy all day long and I just don’t know where (if you

were as busy as you say you are) you find the time to sit in front of your

computer and just type and type, instead of being in the field working or at

least managing projects.

ly, I find your remediation techniques appalling. You sit there and quote

the S-520 all day long about conditions 1,2, and 3 and the fact that you do not

have to get a third party consultant to either, define or write a scope of work

or even better perform post validation sampling on your jobs because 1, there

is not enough money in the job for a consultant (Only enough $ for You) or

because the S-520 say’s you don’t have to.. This is completely

Insane !!! Now, don’t get me wrong, I understand that there are some

small projects out there that a consultant is not necessary, due to the size of

the potentially effected area, or in cases of Emergency water loss jobs due to

time constraints. But, having said that, I would still get a third party to

sign off on the project to potentially reduce my liability if a problem were to

occur down the road. I know, I know your such a good remediator that this would

never happen to you. Is this because you perform your own Clearance or Post

Remediation Validation sampling? I would be willing to bet that if you

had a third party consultant like lets say a Armour, or another credible

consultant who has a ton of knowledge and common sense in this industry

performing your posts tests that you would probably fail over half the time or

be kicked off the project immediately. Especially, if he found out that you

were using household cleaners on your projects like Lysol and Tilex for

chemically intolerant clients. Are you kidding me??? I guess you get away with

a lot more in Florida , because if you tried

to get away with that in California

, you would probably end up in court on just about every project.

As a Co-Chairman of the S-520, which you tend to quote all the time, I can

guarantee that no where in the document it says, go ahead and use

“Household cleaners” for mold remediation jobs. Again, this is

Insanity!! BTW, to respond to your comments below regarding the IESO Standards.

You are correct that 10x is the standard IESO uses for initial assessments, but

these numbers are a rough estimation for identifying a potentially amplified

site. No Where in the IESO document does it say that these are standards for

“post remediation sampling” as they have not been defined yet

according to the powers that be at IESO.

Sucker-punch

spam with award-winning protection.

Try the free

Yahoo! Mail Beta.

February 27, 2007