Re: Cannell on CLO

January 4, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>Did the studies use A and D together, CLO, or just D or A separately?

>I don't know about pre-existing renal failure, but A eliminates the

>harm of D to the kidneys. This will be in my upcoming article.

>

>Chris

I didn't read the studies. I haven't had a chance to respond to the person

who posted that yet. I'm going to ask her for her source when I do and I'll

let you know. You're right, it could tie in to what you've been finding out

about the need to balance A and D.

Do you have a citation for A eliminating the harm of D to the kidneys? Or is

that in your new article? I'd like to check that out and make sure I include

that info in my response on the pet health list. You just really wouldn't

believe how much fish oil is being given to dogs by well-intentioned owners!

Although they do seem to know that it's important to give vit. E to protect

the oil from peroxidation. But I suspect most use only alpha tocopherol. Do

you know if there are any studies showing the efficacy or harm of using only

alpha tocopherol to protect against lipid peroxidation?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

January 4, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>Actually one of them or two of them found it *decreased* oxidation.

>Other studies show the opposite but I think they all use vitamin

>E-deficient diets. Whereas on vitamin E-sufficient diets, all PUFA

>oils I've seen increase lipid peroxidation anyway and CLO either

>doesn't or diminishes it.

Do you have a handy list of these studies anywhere? I'd like to see the

comparative studies that showed that lipid peroxidation *increased* when

PUFA was given (did this include DHA and EPA?) even on E-sufficient diets

compared to the effects of CLO on E-sufficient diets.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html#vegetarian

----------------------------

January 4, 2006

On 1/4/06, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> Do you have a citation for A eliminating the harm of D to the kidneys? Or is

> that in your new article?

Yes, I have a citation for it, but this is study is one of the killers

in the article and I'd rather keep it under wraps for now.

> I'd like to check that out and make sure I include

> that info in my response on the pet health list.

If it's necessary, I can send you the study privately. Let me know

when you're going to send it.

You just really wouldn't

> believe how much fish oil is being given to dogs by well-intentioned owners!

> Although they do seem to know that it's important to give vit. E to protect

> the oil from peroxidation. But I suspect most use only alpha tocopherol. Do

> you know if there are any studies showing the efficacy or harm of using only

> alpha tocopherol to protect against lipid peroxidation?

No, maybe does. There is a recent study though showing that

supplementing with vitamin E raises the risk of heart attacks. In any

case, it is well established that vitamin E is not sufficient to

prevent dietary PUFA-associated raises in lipid peroxides. Although,

my dioxin article might be the only places where it is established

that the vitamin A in cod liver oil makes it the unique PUFA oil that

is antioxidant in the presence of sufficient vitamin E. I tied

together some old studies including one in a totally different field

(dioxin fatality) to make the point, so you might want to quote that

article in which I make that case (it's in the vegetarian versus

traditional diets section).

>Do you have a handy list of these studies anywhere? I'd like to see the

>comparative studies that showed that lipid peroxidation *increased* when

>PUFA was given (did this include DHA and EPA?) even on E-sufficient diets

>compared to the effects of CLO on E-sufficient diets.

Yes, IN MY DIOXIN ARTICLE in the veggie vs. traditional diets section!

While antioxidants protect against lipid peroxidation, consumption of

polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) raises lipid peroxides. PUFA levels

can be low on a vegetarian diet if oils like olive oil or saturated

coconut oil are staples, but cod liver oil, an animal product, is the

only polyunsaturated oil that has been shown to provide essential

fatty acids without raising lipid peroxide levels.

Polyunsaturated plant oils rich in essential fatty acids such as

soybean oil,52 corn oil53 and the omega-3-rich perilla oil54 all raise

lipid peroxide levels. It is not only heated polyunsaturated oils that

raise lipid peroxides. Even fresh, unoxidized perilla oil stored at

–20C and fresh, unoxidized, purified DHA and EPA—the omega-3 PUFAs

found in fish oil and cod liver oil,—stored at –80C, mixed into the

diets of rats immediately before feeding, raised lipid peroxide levels

in tissues considerably—even when rats were fed adequate vitamin E.54

Cod liver oil, on the other hand, has been shown to inhibit lipid

peroxidation. One study found that cod liver oil depressed

drug-induced lipid peroxidation in mice under the same conditions by

which soybean oil increased lipid peroxidation.52 Another study found

that feeding cod liver oil entirely abolished the increased level of

lipid peroxidation found in diabetic rats.55 In both studies, the

depression of lipid peroxidation was related to a sparing effect on

glutathione peroxidase activity, which was also the case in rats saved

from a lethal dose of dioxin by vitamin A supplementation, suggesting

that the protective effect of cod liver oil is due to its high vitamin

A content.(this was cited earlier as 40)

40. Stohs, et al., " Effects of BHA, d-alpha-tocopherol and retinol

acetate on TCDD-mediated changes in lipid peroxidation, glutathione

peroxidase activity and survival, " Xenobiotica Vol. 14 No. 7 (1984)

533-7.

52. Ohtake, et al., " Effects of dietary lipids on daunomycin-induced

nephropathy in mice: comparison between cod liver oil and soybean

oil, " Lipids, Vol. 37 No. 4 (2002) 359-366.

53. Diniz, et al., " Diets rich in saturated and polyunsaturated fatty

acids: metabolic shifting and cardiac health, " Nutrition, 200 (2004)

230-234.

54. Saito and Kubo, " Relationship between tissue lipid peroxidation

and peroxidizability index after a-linolenic, eicosapentaenoic, or

docosahexaenoic acid intake in rats, " British Journal of Nutrition, 89

(2003) 19-28.

55. Hunkar, et al., " Effects of cod liver oil on tissue antioxidant

pathways in normal and streptozotocin- diabetic rats, " Cell Biochem

Funct. Vol. 20 No. 4 (2002) 297-302.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

January 4, 2006

Chris-

>Actually one of them or two of them found it *decreased* oxidation.

Wow! I didn't remember that from your earlier messages, but that's

definitely interesting and good to know.

>Addtionally, high-vitamin CLO is for whatever reason a much better

>source of D proportionally. It has twice the D to A ratio of other

>CLOs.

Any idea why this is? I've always wondered why the A:D ratio changes

instead of just the vitamin:PUFA ratio.

Well, I guess they're different weights, so they doubtless behave

differently in the concentrating process.

-

January 4, 2006

Suze-

>Further, one of my dogs has weak

>kidneys (possibly even early stage kidney failure) and someone posted

>telling me that fish oil is good for kidney failure and that vits A and D

>should not be given because these vitamins " ...from CLO can build up to

>toxic levels in a dog with renal failure " .

What a crock. Fish oil can certainly have obvious short-term

benefits, but in the long term, it's a disaster. And anyway, AFAIK A

completely protects against any possible renal toxicity from D, and

CLO has both, so it's just not an issue.

>As far as I can tell from what

>I've read about renal failure, the way in which fish oil has been found

>beneficial is simply that it lowers the inflammation producing ecosanoids by

>inhibiting AA production. So if the animal *already* has a balanced EFA

>profile (NOT pro-inflammatory to begin with) I'm not sure that fish oil

>would have any beneficual effects.

Not only that, all the fish oil studies I've seen have been

relatively short term, meaning they're not accounting for any

long-term pro-inflammatory effects from heightened peroxidation. I'm

sure has surveyed this area of the literature far more

intensively than I have, though, so maybe he can shed some light on the issue.

-

January 4, 2006

Chris-

> > Do you have a citation for A eliminating the harm of D to the

> kidneys? Or is > that in your new article? Yes, I have a citation

> for it, but this is study is one of the killers in the article and

> I'd rather keep it under wraps for now.

Are you sure it's that unknown? My mom mentioned that exact factor

to me a few months ago in reference to her dog. She may have even

emailed me her references, but I'm a couple thousand messages behind

on her email...

-

January 4, 2006

On 1/4/06, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Chris-

>

> > > Do you have a citation for A eliminating the harm of D to the

> > kidneys? Or is > that in your new article? Yes, I have a citation

> > for it, but this is study is one of the killers in the article and

> > I'd rather keep it under wraps for now.

>

> Are you sure it's that unknown? My mom mentioned that exact factor

> to me a few months ago in reference to her dog. She may have even

> emailed me her references, but I'm a couple thousand messages behind

> on her email...

Oh I don't know then. *shrug*

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

January 4, 2006

Chris-

> > Are you sure it's that unknown? My mom mentioned that exact factor

> > to me a few months ago in reference to her dog. She may have even

> > emailed me her references, but I'm a couple thousand messages behind

> > on her email...

>

>Oh I don't know then. *shrug*

Well, my mom is a pretty obsessive researcher, and she cared enough

about her dog's nutritional status and health to devote a lot of her

research time to what she was feeding him, so I don't know that I'd

draw any conclusions from her knowing something or other about the issue.

-

January 4, 2006

On 1/4/06, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Well, my mom is a pretty obsessive researcher, and she cared enough

> about her dog's nutritional status and health to devote a lot of her

> research time to what she was feeding him, so I don't know that I'd

> draw any conclusions from her knowing something or other about the issue.

And if Cannel, who is heading a major organization devoted to the very

subject, is saying not to take A with D, then even some or many people

who keep up to date with research more or less apparently don't

realize that A and D go together.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.cholecalciferol-council.com/releases.shtml

January 4, 2006

>

> -

>

> > " ... I do not advise cod liver oil; if you just have to take it,

> >don't take more than a teaspoon per day. Get your omega-3s from

> >molecularly distilled fish body oils (Trader Joe's) or by eating wild

> >salmon or sardines; get your vitamin D by taking vitamin D or by going

> >into the sun, or by combining both. "

> Where on earth does he say this? Very strange, and a terrible

> idea. Is it the vitamin A he's nervous about?

,

This just in:

" Preformed retinols interfer [sic] with the VDR.

I would not take more than 5,000 IU of retinols

Beta Carotene is OK.

I'll have more on it in a future newlsetter.

Cannell, MD "

Apparently he is on top of his email.

The quote is from his latest newsletter.

B.

January 4, 2006

> Where on earth does he say this? Very strange, and a terrible

> idea. Is it the vitamin A he's nervous about?

,

I forwarded the newsletter to you. If anyone else hasn't yet read,

it's here:

B.

January 4, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of downwardog7

>,

>This just in:

>

> " Preformed retinols interfer [sic] with the VDR.

>

>I would not take more than 5,000 IU of retinols

>

>Beta Carotene is OK.

Eh. He must've been at the vitamin A lecture at the conference.

hurry up and finish that article so we can educate the good doc on

the error of his ways. In the meantime, one of you guys who's corresponding

with him, please send him a link the Vitamin A article in the WAPF site.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

January 4, 2006

On 1/4/06, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> " Preformed retinols interfer [sic] with the VDR.

I haven't seen anything suggesting that they directly interfere with

the vitamin D receptor, and I don't think they do, but in some

tissues, and not others, where there is a limited supply of the

retinoid X receptor, which must bind both the vitaminA-Areceptor

complex and the vitaminD-Dreceptor complex in order for them to bind

to their respective proper places in the DNA to affect gene

transcription, an excess of one can competitively inhibit the other by

hogging the retinoid X receptor. This is similar to how, if your EFAs

are primarily plant-source, an imbalance of one over the other will

hog the delta-six desaturase and induce a deficiency of the elongated

form of the other one.

I don't understand why he doesn't say we should limit our intake

becasue vitamin D " interfer with the RAR. "

What? Did vitamin A become not a vitamin anymore? Did I miss the

news? Who elected the VDR more important than the RAR?

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

January 5, 2006

-

Oh well. One more piece of evidence that nobody's

infallible. (Except me, of course. <g>)

> " Preformed retinols interfer [sic] with the VDR.

>

>I would not take more than 5,000 IU of retinols

>

>Beta Carotene is OK.

-

January 5, 2006

On 1/4/06, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > -

> >

> > > " ... I do not advise cod liver oil; if you just have to take it,

> > >don't take more than a teaspoon per day. Get your omega-3s from

> > >molecularly distilled fish body oils (Trader Joe's) or by eating wild

> > >salmon or sardines; get your vitamin D by taking vitamin D or by going

> > >into the sun, or by combining both. "

>

> > Where on earth does he say this? Very strange, and a terrible

> > idea. Is it the vitamin A he's nervous about?

>

> ,

> This just in:

>

> " Preformed retinols interfer [sic] with the VDR.

>

> I would not take more than 5,000 IU of retinols

>

> Beta Carotene is OK.

>

> I'll have more on it in a future newlsetter.

,

Could you please clarify what the question you asked him was, in order

to elicit this response?

Thanks,

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

January 5, 2006

> > " Preformed retinols interfer [sic] with the VDR.

> >

> > I would not take more than 5,000 IU of retinols

> >

> > Beta Carotene is OK.

> >

> > I'll have more on it in a future newlsetter.

>

> ,

>

> Could you please clarify what the question you asked him was, in order

> to elicit this response?

Excellent point. Please forgive my shoddy reporting. Here it is:

" Dear Dr. Cannell,

I saw your presentation at the WAPF conf. in November and don't recall

hearing any qualms re: cod liver oil consumption yet in your latest

newsletter you advise against it. What's up? I assume it has

something to do with vit A/D antagonism? "

B.

January 5, 2006

On 1/5/06, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> > Could you please clarify what the question you asked him was, in order

> > to elicit this response?

>

> Excellent point. Please forgive my shoddy reporting. Here it is:

No problem, but thank you.

> " Dear Dr. Cannell,

> I saw your presentation at the WAPF conf. in November and don't recall

> hearing any qualms re: cod liver oil consumption yet in your latest

> newsletter you advise against it. What's up? I assume it has

> something to do with vit A/D antagonism? "

Ah. Ok. Well it seemed like he was saying this in direct connection

to the studies his cited in his newsletter, none of the results of

which were likely to have anything to do with the vitamin D receptor,

which is why I asked. But I guess it isn't clear that he's saying

that.

In any case, I wonder if he is aware of the synergistic and additive

roles that they play.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

January 6, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>In any case, I wonder if he is aware of the synergistic and additive

>roles that they play.

can you give an example of what you mean by an " additive " role?

Suze

January 6, 2006

On 1/6/06, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> can you give an example of what you mean by an " additive " role?

Well, in one case of which I was reading yesterday:

Differentiation therapy is a therapy for leukemia where some signaling

substance is used to induce a cell's differentiation and normal

apoptosis. I'm not sure the details of how this helps to overcome the

cancer, but in any case it reportedly has amazing clinical success,

and the the most effective treatment has been using high doses of

naturally occuring all-trans retinoic acid, which is the activated,

hormone form of vitamin A.

But only single therapies have been investigated so far. So

researchers showed that calcitriol, the activated, hormone form of

vitamin D, has an additive effect on this differentiation when

combined with vitamin A, by increasing the number of cells

differentiated and the speed at which they differentiate in response

to vitamin A.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

January 6, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>On 1/6/06, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>

>> can you give an example of what you mean by an " additive " role?

>

>Well, in one case of which I was reading yesterday:

>

>Differentiation therapy is a therapy for leukemia where some signaling

>substance is used to induce a cell's differentiation and normal

>apoptosis. I'm not sure the details of how this helps to overcome the

>cancer,

Maybe I'm missing something but that would help overcome the cancer by

causing the differentiation which would make the cells no longer cancerous.

And also by inducing normal cell death (apoptosis) so that the cancer cells

would not only differentiate normally but die a normal death.

but in any case it reportedly has amazing clinical success,

>and the the most effective treatment has been using high doses of

>naturally occuring all-trans retinoic acid, which is the activated,

>hormone form of vitamin A.

Huh, that is interesting. I was aware that vitamin A indices apoptosis, but

I didn't know about this.

>

>But only single therapies have been investigated so far. So

>researchers showed that calcitriol, the activated, hormone form of

>vitamin D, has an additive effect on this differentiation when

>combined with vitamin A, by increasing the number of cells

>differentiated and the speed at which they differentiate in response

>to vitamin A.

This is incredible, but logical in a general sense, if we think Price's

primitives had any dietary wisdom since they loaded up on A and D.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

January 6, 2006

On 1/6/06, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> >Differentiation therapy is a therapy for leukemia where some signaling

> >substance is used to induce a cell's differentiation and normal

> >apoptosis. I'm not sure the details of how this helps to overcome the

> >cancer,

>

> Maybe I'm missing something but that would help overcome the cancer by

> causing the differentiation which would make the cells no longer cancerous.

> And also by inducing normal cell death (apoptosis) so that the cancer cells

> would not only differentiate normally but die a normal death.

I would think that understanding it would indicate that you aren't

missing something, not that you are. I totally understand the

apoptosis thing, but, knowing basically nothing about cancer -- are

cancerous cells somehow in differentiative limbo? Why does

*differentiation* overcome the cancer?

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

January 7, 2006

Chris-

>Why does

>*differentiation* overcome the cancer?

Most (or perhaps all; I'm not sure about this) cancer cells have

regressed to an undifferentiated state, so forcing them to

differentiate would presumably stop them from remaining cancerous.

-

January 7, 2006

On 1/7/06, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Chris-

>

> >Why does

> >*differentiation* overcome the cancer?

>

> Most (or perhaps all; I'm not sure about this) cancer cells have

> regressed to an undifferentiated state, so forcing them to

> differentiate would presumably stop them from remaining cancerous.

Gotcha. That seemed to be implied in what I was reading, but it

didn't come out and state clearly that background info. That still

leaves details enough for me to say I don't really understand it, but

the basic concept makes some rudimentary preceding elements of sense

to me. Thanks.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

January 8, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>On 1/6/06, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>

>> >Differentiation therapy is a therapy for leukemia where some signaling

>> >substance is used to induce a cell's differentiation and normal

>> >apoptosis. I'm not sure the details of how this helps to overcome the

>> >cancer,

>>

>> Maybe I'm missing something but that would help overcome the cancer by

>> causing the differentiation which would make the cells no longer

>cancerous.

>> And also by inducing normal cell death (apoptosis) so that the

>cancer cells

>> would not only differentiate normally but die a normal death.

>

>I would think that understanding it would indicate that you aren't

>missing something, not that you are.

I just have to predicate my replies to you with such disclaimers because

probably 95% of the time you know the subject much better than I do, so I

can usually safely assume I missed something if you did.

I totally understand the

>apoptosis thing, but, knowing basically nothing about cancer -- are

>cancerous cells somehow in differentiative limbo? Why does

>*differentiation* overcome the cancer?

's answer was correct. Just think of a rough analogy to embrionic cells

that lectured about. The " primitive " undifferentiated cancer cell

is the " primitive " embryo. Although I guess that's a really, really rough

ananalogy.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics